Master Silver

What parallels can we make between what Jezrien did with the first oath pact and what Dalinar is doing now? Is there some sort of symmetry?

But investiture (such as spren can neither be created nor destroyed, only transferred I am excluding the use anti-light from this statement). Therefore when shard plate is attacked by normal means the condensed spren simply need to reform I imagine. You can't kill creation spren or wind spren by hitting them with a hammer. If they are condensed into shard plate you could disperse them. Stormlight, like mastery of their ideal makes them pool/condense. That is my thought anyway. If you think of when Shallan and Kaladin are living up to their ideal, like when Shallan is creating art with Wit, or Kalladin defending their respective plate spren are their in droves. Stormlight serves to cause this to happen too. In dead plate, this is the fastest way to regrow damaged plate. Just my thoughts.

So I am not sure if this has been stated, we know the fifth ideal for Sky Breakers is "I am the Law." I know, I am Protection", has already been proposed. But why do Wind Runners protect? Because it is the right thing to do. "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." But we also know that the Wind Runners have the closest ties to Honor. And Tanavast died protecting mankind. And for those reasons, I believe the fifth ideal is, "I am Honor." Maybe the first Wind Runner to swear the fifth ideal will ascend, or perhaps the full power of the Shard will be shared, because Honor is not dead so long as he lives within the hearts of men.

And then Moash will die :-D

Perhaps it is temporary, but with void light. New heralds might be able to go to Damnation to finish the fight. I mean every Fused killed with void light is one fewer fused to worry about. They aren't making more of them. At it is mostly because of the numbers game that the heralds lost. If the fused started with 1/10 the number. Maybe heralds can take care of the rest of them. And apparently if you die enough you crack.

Yeah I think that Nale is likely the best warrior Odium has. It seems pretty clear that 1v1 any herald would beat any fused. That is in part why I think the fused were s surprised that Kaladin was able to best their best Heavenly Ones. And for as good as Kaladin is Kalak made them all seem like children. Kalak average, 4/10 chance that Nale is better. But I agree, Mr. T is going to try to be smart, overly smart, so a child is likely to be the champion.

So, Kaladin picking up the Shard to die wiping out Odium, would mirror another series too much. Taravangian and Dalinar have had a back and forth thing going for a while now. So in that case it would make sense for Dalinar to ascend and continue to oppose Odium. We also have the fact that Kaladin has served under Dalinar since the end of book one. So Dalinar ascending and Kaladin becoming the leader of the heralds would preserve that pattern. So that is on the one side. On the other side, we see Dalinar believing in Kaladin, along with the whole Tower. Very similar to how people believed in a certain Mistborn. But I am convinced that their will be some twist and Brandon will not repeat the same patter. I want some of our favorite characters to become immortal, but I don't want Kaladin to be omnipotent. I don't think it suits him.

Ishar very easily could have taken his blade during the Recreance and then put it back. But it is just as likely that since the Radiants including their spren didn't know that they would be creating dead eyes, they tried to do what would allow spren to recover faster. Maybe that means being in Shadesmar when the bond is broken.

What if the experiments Ishar was doing were on dead eyes. Ishar could easily have moved a large number of blades back to the cognitive realm.

Thanks for the good (and kind) explanation. I spend most of time when it comes to the Cosmere in Stormlight Archives. But your explanation makes sense. Taking up a Shard would connect you to all of that Shard, 1/16 of the total power in the universe. Good example with Breath. So the god-King, whatever he is called that makes things lose their color, he is only at the 10,000-20,000 breath correct? What is Lerasium by the way, I don't remember? I do like systematizing where people are. Calling it power scaling would open a can of worms so let's not do that. Still, in Stormlight Archives their does seem to be a bit of power scaling going on as they discuss in RoW. Soldier vs Singer, Shard bearer vs Regal, Radiant vs Fused, Herald vs Unmade (maybe), Honor vs Odium. Bondsmiths seem to be somewhere between Unmade and Herald, but they certainly break the mold. Radiants of the 4th ideal also seem to have a significant edge over most Fused, rendering Fused technology somewhat ineffective. I can see Ishar somehow folding Jezrien's honor blade into Syl and Kaladin somehow making her a super spren.

I love this topic. I think Sanderson was/is setting up a third group. Against Odium, but not in the human camp. The Listeners. Yes, I'm stating the obvious. But what is slightly less obvious, is that this group, the Listeners, will be powered by a new type of investiture. The Rhythm of War. Stormlight and void light in harmony. Toward the end of the book, one of the spren said they just learned about this, and they had to teach it to their siblings. So, that means, at least in my mind, these corrupted spren of Ba-a-do-mishra (sorry about spelling), will power their Radiants with War-light (if I can use the term). Heavenly ones could potentially bond wind spren. If they were once Windrunners, we may see a huge jump in their ability to own the skies. There are about what, 20 of them? On the specific issue of dead eyes, Adolin has begun the work. But Dalinar asked the Stormfather about healing dead eyes. The Stormfather said it is impossible because the Radiants are dead. But the Fused are not dead, so possibly they could say their oaths and heal their spren. I think Shallan (or more likely Radiant) is going to point out this obvious fact. Say your oaths again and mean them. That should heal the bond in someway, like Kaladin and Syl.

But there are certain thresholds of holding enough investiture from a particular shard that changes you. For instance in the Mistborn series you have mistings and Mistborn. You even have Mistborns that are stronger than others. Eventually we see what happens when invested enough. Breath seems to be the same way with different levels. the 10th heightening being the highest that we know. But we we call both the tenth heightening and The Lord Ruler from the Mistoborn series, Slivers right? The Stormfather has been verified to have absorbed Tanavast's cognitive shadow (or merged with it), making Dalinar hold the most intact piece of the Shard of Honor. The Heralds are likely next, because of Honor blades, followed by Kaladin. We can't be certain if their is anything exceptional about Syl (the ancient daughter) besides being the only one left, but she could be qualitatively more connected to Honor than the other Honor spren. So yes, there is a point of no return where you pick up the Shard because you are so highly invested by that particular shard. Also there is a point when by being invested enough you fundamentally change. Again Breath is a great example of this. So Dalinar picking up another huge piece of investiture could change him. How we don't know.

So, I wonder if Dalinar binds the Everstorm too, is that enough investiture to form a new Shard? How much investiture is needed to ascend. I also wouldn't mind seeing him with Oathbringer up and running and living shard plate. Ascending leaves you bound. Right now the Bondsmiths potentially can help their side more than Odium because they are not bound. Odium told Dalniar the power will bind him eventually. I do like the idea of 10 Radiants taking up more of honor. Double the amount of Honor (the Shard) in each Honor blade to re-forge the oath pack. Those mini shards would not be bound the way a Shard is so they would have fewer limitations (only their oaths from their order and from the oath pact).

Yeah, I just remember that sometimes when something important is happening the spren manifest at a regular human size. In terms of the anti-void light and them appearing in the physical realm. Would spren still be in danger in their blade form? Could they possibly get a tiny set of plate upon swearing the fourth ideal. Or just manifest as themselves but made out of shard blade material. If Syl can turn into a sword or shield, surely she can turn into herself (but as a shard blade)

I think a Fused child, so not any child. But put a fused child in dull for and have them look at Dalinar with their big brown eyes. That would fulfill the death rattle right? It would also ensure a willing champion

Good thoughts. I wonder if these higher lvl spren could manifest safely at say the fifth ideal. The closer they are tied to a human the more they can manifest in the physical realm. Remember Syl before Kaladin swears the second ideal. At the third ideal they can manifest as weapons. What Ishar seemed to be doing is trying to get around the need to bond. Interesting observations though. I wonder if Brandon will pick up this thread. Sometimes I feel like he sets things down and doesn't get back to them.

Ishar's bondsmith abilities do predate the humans on Roshar, at least pretty sure it says so in RoW. We also know Roshar was created before the splintering of Adonsasium. So, just postulating here, but what if the magic system on Roshar was the original magic system, and now the three Shards there, simply provide the power to keep it going, but didn't reinvent the wheel, like other Shards. Perhaps that is what convinces Odium, that the power of lashings will be enough to win him wars against other Shards.

So Hoid has some sort of agreement that the Shards cannot directly harm him. But as we have seen, they can strip him of investiture (or at least certain types). There may be a way around this. Like if he invests his breaths into his plate that is bound to him. I believe living plate can travel through Shadesmar. But how much investiture can he amass without ascending? Surely he knows. Once he ascends Hoid would be bound by certain rules (something he doesn't want). So the Lord Ruler, not bound (very powerful). Heralds, sort of bound, by their oath pact. Radiants, bound by oaths. And some magics are bound to systems. Like being an Elantrian. But even combining a bunch of magic systems and becoming very powerful in each type, a finite amount of power (no matter how much) multiplied by 16 (16 Shards) is infinitely less than infinity, and we are told that Shards have infinite energy (can't remember where it said this and I'm not sure it is strictly true), but they are bound by rules. Side note, Hoid not being able to kill, may go away. It certainly isn't because he doesn't have the stomach for it. He is willing to sacrifice everyone on Roshar to keep Odium bound.

Great topic. So a couple of things. Hoid had a chance to become a shard, but passed it up. Do we know which Shard? Hoid, even after losing some breaths (at least that is implied) is still very highly invested.

Yes, I can see that. According to Moash and perhaps even himself, the only hand that can take his life is his own. In some way this is how the Shards work. As long as they don't break their oaths they are not open to attack. But the Shard sometimes overcomes the vessel and they do things that leave themselves able to be destroyed. Going back to Kaladin though, Some oath that helps keep him from intentional self-harm. "I am worth protection." That seems to be in part what Kaladin has been learning to do in RoW. Not only that, but he always seems to be working on more than one oath at a time. Like he is capable of swearing an ideal, but doesn't until he is ready, but that doesn't stop him from working on the next step. It will be interesting what other things manifest once Kal swears the fifth ideal. I hope he is the first, even though Jasnah has a head start, reaching the fourth ideal first (although knowing her she has had the fifth ideal since we met her lol). Also Jezrian's blade, (clearly a blind man can't use it) (he isn't a Jedi)). But I imagine if Moash doesn't get a redemption arc, then surely the blade gets made use of by team honor. Dalinar claiming the oath for Oathbringer makes sense to me, but leaving an honor blade unused makes no sense to me. Absorbed by Syl, making her a super spren (is that possible)?

I really, really hope Brandon doesn to a kill one of the three major spren 2.0. RoW ended with saving one one the three major spren (the sibling). We also still don't know what all of the surges do and we are how many thousands of pages are we into the series and we still have lots to learn about the magic system. So for the magic system to completely change I think would be awful. Brandon has got to start tying up some loose ends and also giving us a bit firmer foundation with magic on Roshar. Plate and blade are good. Wind runners are good. As are light weavers. Truth watchers, meh, In general I feel like 4 lashings maybe 5 have been covered well. Transformation, adhesion, gravitation, and regrowth. Maybe friction (Lift's awesomeness). Only got a spattering for bond smiths, but they are different. Stone wards and dust bringers not much at all on either of them. So loads to still discover, and that is before corrupted spren got put in the mix.

Good thoughts. Going of that. "I will lead people to protect." Or perhaps flip it, "I will protect by leading" I still am intrigued by what power up (aside from efficiency) does the fifth ideal give. I really liked the idea of it doing something similar to the fifth heightening with breath (to me this makes sense). Breath is just investiture, and upon having enough of it in their system they essentially stop aging. Well, Kaladin has shown that he had a stormlight addiction, but perhaps the side effects of having stormlight in your system decrease as you swear more ideas. You certainly become a better vessel to hold stormlight, but perhaps that is because your body is changing and becoming a more worthy vessel. Which means perhaps you won't have the same sort of dangerous side effects of having or using too much stormlight. We know stormlight heals, even old wounds. But I imagine it could also slow or stop aging if a Radiant of the fifth idea saw aging the same way they did a cut or something. Perception would be the only thing that stopped stormlight from reversing age once you become a perfect vessel for stormlight. There isn't really a reason why stormlight should act differently than breath if you had it in a body that didn't leak it. 5th lvl heightening for breath should be able to do the same thing for a perfect vessel that doesn't leak stormlight if you have equivalent investiture. What do you all think?

I don't remember much about the Windblades other than they exist. But a Windrunner of the fifth ideal working with an Elsecaller and Stonewarden both of the fifth ideal could have formed those.

The only way out of the cease fire is for the contest to end in a draw or not end. In which case Odium can fight until the contest is decided. He knows Dalinar won't kill a child. Remember the Rift.

The main benefit of replacing the heralds with spren, would be spren are incapable of breaking their word, unlike humans. Which means the oath pact would be binding. What if the heralds become the "spren" of the new heralds. Two years and then preview chapters? I can't wait.