mdross81

Interesting theory. Certainly not the wildest speculation I've seen. Seems consistent with Hoid's previous comments.

Was working on a different theory when I came across this brief bit from Adolin's perspective in RoW 75: So when he sees this, he's looking south from Lasting Integrity towards the solid ground that corresponds to the Southern Depths in the Physical Realm. What do we think might be causing the lifespren to blink on and off in a coordinated wave in this area? The only clue I can think of is the scene where we see how Rlain has taught the ardents at Urithiru to drum a specific rhythm to create an organic fabrial. The rhythm seems to draw Stormlight out of the gemstones, infusing the lifespren, which then presumably use the surge of progression to make the plants grow. But what would be causing a similar phenomenon to occur in this region of Shadesmar? Is there something in the ocean in the Physcial Realm (or on the land in the CR) that is making a similar rhythm to interact with the lifespren? And is this truly unique to just this area of Shadesmar? Curious whether others have any ideas on what this could be.

This is a good point and raises a question going forward. Who's left for us to hate heading into book 5? Rayse is gone; Lezian is gone; Venli's well into her redemption arc. With Moash being blinded and potential uncertainty about whether the new Vessel of Odium will keep taking his pain, he may end up harder to hate. We're kinda left with just Taravangian, which makes me think that he will do something terribly awful in Book 5 (I mean worse that what he's done before), probably to Dalinar or Kaladin. Welp.

This might be more of a concern if the SF was talking about possibly being splintered by Odium back when Honor was splintered. But I think when the SF says that he could have been splintered but wasn’t, he’s referring to the time in OB when he was holding Odium back so that Dalinar could talk to Venli in a vision. The SF says this in response to Dalinar asking if he’s ok after the end of that vision when he heard the SF crying and whimpering that Odium was too strong: That reads like a present tense fear to me. So as late as Oathbringer the SF still believes that Odium fears an attack from Cultivation. And I don’t think anything has happened since then that would have caused Cultivation to turn.

This might be more of a concern if the SF was talking about possibly being splintered by Odium back when Honor was splintered. But I think when the SF says that he could have been splintered but wasn’t, he’s referring to the time in OB when he was holding Odium back so that Dalinar could talk to Venli in a vision. The SF says this in response to Dalinar asking if he’s ok after the end of that vision when he heard the SF crying and whimpering that Odium was too strong: That reads like a present tense fear to me. So as late as Oathbringer the SF still believes that Odium fears an attack from Cultivation. And I don’t think anything has happened since then that would have caused Cultivation to turn.

I also thought this seemed odd if, in fact, the Fused helped kill Odium. But if you look at the context of what Raboniel is saying there it seems like it’s possible she means that they don’t know the mechanism used to actually kill him. In other words she might know how Honor ended up in a position where he was vulnerable but just doesn’t fully understand how he was then Splintered.

Here’s hoping they can. I’m never so invested in my own theories that I turn my nose up at contradictory ones so I will check out your post. I’ve been meaning to but saw the length and knew I didn’t have the time. Looking forward to it though.

For a while now, I've been reviewing the books and trying to understand Nale/Ishar's motivations in killing proto-Radiants I feel like I'm close but not quite there on understanding why they thought it possible that non-Skybreaker Radiants swearing Ideals would potentially give an opening for Odium's forces to make the jump to Roshar and start a Desolation. But one thing that has occurred to me is a pretty morbid scene related to the Oathpact that i think must have played out at the end of each Desolation. So first, here's some basics of the Oathpact explained by the Stormfather in OB 38: Ok, so if they die in the fighting, the Herald automatically gets sent back to Braize. And as we learn from Kalak in the Prelude, if they die in the fighting their Honrblade would vanish. Speaking of the Prelude, Kalak explains there that the Heralds always made a plan in advance on when and where they would meet after a battle: Ok, nothing too bad yet. But now consider Leshwi's explanation to Venli in RoW 14 of what the Heralds then had to do to activate the Isolation: So the Heralds had to give themselves to Braize, meaning they had to die. And we know that they would meet up together after the battle was over at a prearranged location. So when they had those meetings and decided that humanity could stand against Odium's forces without their aid, did they then ... kill each other? Commit group suicide together? All so they could go back and be tortured some more? Plus, aren't the Heralds pretty hard to kill? My best guess is that there was something special about the Honorblades that enabled them to kill one another/themselves. It's still an unanswered question how they were able to activate the Isolation without dying this last time. I'm guessing that also had something to do with the Honorblades. Maybe by severing their bonds to their Blades, they were able to activate the Isolation? As for why Nale/Ishar believed that the continued functioning of the Oathpact required them to to prevent Radiant bonds from forming, the most explanation we get comes from Nale in Edgedancer, chapter 9: Nale also offers this vague explanation to Szeth in OB 106: Lastly, I guess we can infer something about how Voidbringers travel between Roshar and Briaze from this exchange between Venli and Nale in RoW 77: Seems like we can infer from this that when a Herald breaks, it causes a bridge to open between Braize and Roshar. Putting this together with the explanation in Edgedancer, it seems that Ishar convinced Nale that if humans began bonding spren again, they would discover the greater power of the oaths, and that swearing those oaths could likewise create a bridge between Braize and Roshar. Why that would be, I don't know. Anyway, back to the mechanics of the Oathpact; what a grim scene this would be. The surviving Heralds meeting up at the end of each Desolation for a murder/suicide pact just so they can go back to Damnation to be tortured. I'm sorry to make y'all think about it, but I can't stop thinking about it now, so you're just going to have to share the burden with me.

Maybe you’re right. I was just thinking it was possible that the start of the dying process happened closer in time to the Recreance; not necessarily long before.

Ok. I had taken those lines as evidence that Honor was going mad, but not necessarily that he was in the process of dying. I have thought that the madness could have been self-inflicted. That Honor had either done something inconsistent with his Shard’s intent or sacrificed to seal Odium away. Ok. I see what you mean. I think I was thrown by you saying “over centuries” because that seemed more specific than the WoB saying it was “protracted.” I’ll grant that the WoB suggests that Honor may have begun the process of dying before the Recreance. Edit: I found a couple of quotes talking about how Honor was dying at the time of the Recreance. RoW 66: And OB 113: Later in 113: But I don’t know that any of these suggest that he had been dying for a long time before the Recreance. Certainly not centuries if he started dying some time between the previous generation and the generation of KR around at the time of the Recreance.

Is there a quote or WoB on this?

I like this. My mind has been fixated recently on just how pervasive the theme of lost memories is in the Stormlight Archive. From Heralds losing their grip due to their immortality; to Shallan actively suppressing her memories; to Cultivation taking away Dalinar’s memories; to an entire race of beings - the singers/listeners - forgetting who they were, it’s just all over the place.

Fair enough. I guess it would make sense for a strike taking advantage of a hole in the soul from a broken oath to happen in the spiritual realm. And the Fused get involved through spiritual mumbo jumbo. Could work.

I don’t follow. The OP never suggested that Honor’s death took place over centuries. Are you saying that you think it did? At any rate, if the broken oath was allowing the imprisonment of BAM and the resulting harm to the singers, as the OP suggested, that would fit with Honor “dying” right around that time. By that I mean the killing blow would have been struck around that time, although as we’ve learned, Shard death is an extended process. Of course, now that I think about it more, there is a problem with @Kranse’s theory. As far as we know, there were not any Fused around on Roshar to have struck at Honor around the time of BAM’s imprisonment. They were all still stuck on Braize because Taln was still holding.

Welcome to the Shard @LiftWillSaveMe And thanks for tooting my horn for me @Honorless I was about to reply with a link to my Warmth coming from a place beyond post. Not that my topic itself shed a lot of light, but there were some good replies as I recall.

Thanks for the interesting questions @Bejardin1250. Here’s my take. The Stormfather tells us in OB 38 that Odium is sealed by the powers of Honor and Cultivation. So I don’t think he’s completely free if Dalinar breaks the contract, because ostensibly Cultivation’s powers would still be holding him (unless it required both of them together to seal him; we just don’t know). But there do some to be limitations that would fall away simply by virtue of Dalinar, the representative of Honor, being in Odium’s power. In OB 57, Odium speaks with Dalinar: And later in the same conversation after Dalinar asks what would be the consequences of him releasing Odium: Presumably the reason he’d do this first is to completely free himself. All of that said, there is this in RoW 112: These passages seems to suggest that Dalinar alone could grant Odium freedom from the Rosharan system. I’ll note that this conversation takes place after Dalinar “Ascends” at the end of OB. So maybe that is the difference. Or maybe, just like the Oathpact, only one of Honor or Cultivation needs to agree to free Odium to make it possible. So where does that leave things? At a bare minimum Odium would be “unshackled” and free to pursue and try to kill Cultivation. But it could be the case that, with Dalinar in his power, Odium would simply be free. In terms of your other questions, my read is that there is one provision of the contract that explicitly requires each side to maintain discipline in their forces: This line about the champions being otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces is the only provision where I think someone other than Dalinar could potentially break the contract. So, Jasnah? Definitely part of Dalinar’s forces and if she harmed Odium’s champ (or, frankly, Dalinar’s champ based on the plain language) that would break the contract. Ditto to anyone that Dalinar explicitly sends to harm either champ. Outside of this provision, I don’t think anyone but Dalinar could break the contract for Team Dalinar. [disregard the spoiler/quote boxes below; I just hit the wrong button and couldn’t figure out how to delete them on my phone]

Cool theory @Kranse. I’ve also thought for a while now that Tanavast likely broke an agreement and thereby put himself at risk. My own theory had been that he and Rayse had agreed to a proxy war between humans and singers and that Tanavast directly intervened in some way that violated the terms. But I like yours better. Your theory has an interesting take on the line about Honor being more obsessed with oaths themselves instead of the meanings behind the oaths. I had always figured that this meant he was overly strict in his view of complying with oaths. But you’re totally right that it could instead mean he was actually being lax and viewing oaths as fulfilled, rather than broken, through technicalities about the wording.

Fair point. It’s probably a stretch to call Dalinar’s decision to give way to Gavilar a pledge or a full-on oath. It just seemed like a possible way to ensure a win for Odium no matter what by having Dalinar win but still lose if he defeats Gavilar in the contest. (I’m assuming Odium would have knowledge of it through Dalinar’s connection to the Thrill). This (and your argument more generally) is the closest I’ve come to even considering that the child champion theory could be narratively satisfying. I don’t know if you’ve entirely sold me that Todium will be able to recruit Gavinor as a willing champion. But setting that aside, walk me through how Gavinor-as-champion would guarantee a victory for Todium in the (admittedly very unlikely) event that Dalinar realizes that he has been outmaneuvered by Todium and, in a moment of doubt and weakness, gives in to the Taravangian utilitarian worldview and decides he simply must kill Gavinor for the greater good. I can envision a couple of possibilities. But given your well thought-out arguments, I’m just curious if you have gamed out how that might translate into a victory for Todium.

This feels exactly right to me. Throw in the fact that Gavilar also received the visions from the Stormfather, but that he seems to have construed the command to “Unite them” in a different, but potentially reasonable/defensible way. And THEN consider Dalinar’s oath-like promise after nearly attacking Gavilar in the flashback in OB 26: Imagine how Dalinar would struggle if placed in a position where he’s reunited with his brother but then forced to fight him and potentially break this pledge.

This is a clever theory. And I tend to agree that, if the contract is broken by one side or the other, it will be the provision stating that the champions must be allowed to meet atop Urithiru “otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces” that will be violated. I’m not sold yet on a particular theory of who the champions will be and how they might be harmed, but I like how @nimvin is thinking creatively about what it might be. One thought that recently occurred to me is what if Taravangian names Moash as his champion but then has him surrender himself to Dalinar’s forces in advance of the contest. He would essentially be daring Dalinar to try to keep that storming’ cremhole safe from the myriad people who’d like to see him dead. (This could even allow a role for little Gavinor to sate all the people who think he’s going to factor into the book 5 endgame).

You are definitely correct that there are elements of the Isis/Osirus myth going on with Cultivation and Honor too. And the further interesting thing about that is that Osiris' power and reputation (referred to as his "ba") was worshipped in its own right. Reminds me of how Odium says that Dalinar, through his bond with the Stormfather, holds the remnants of Honor's name and power. Edit: Updated with new research Hey @crème de la crèmling, just wanted to add in an additional Isis/Osiris connection I found. I was reading through WoK 57 recently, where Hoid tells the story of Derethil and the Wandersail. Here's the bit that sent me down a rabbit hole: I started looking around to see if the name Nafti might crop up anywhere. Lo and behold, it's an alternative spelling sometimes used to refer to Nephthys. Who was Nephthys? She was Isis's sister, and together with Isis was responsible for protecting the mummified body of Osiris. Which is a pretty cool connection given that the Wandersail story is essentially an allegory about how Honor (who you astutely pointed out shares some similarities with Osiris) is dead but nobody knows it. Nephthys and Isis were tied to funerary rites involving wailing and weeping (like the Uvara). They were also frequently depicted as guardians of the gateway entrances to temples, which were believed to be points of transition between the realms of the living and the dead. This too has echoes in the Wandersail story, because the Uvara are the "people of the Great Abyss." And it's implied in the story that Derethil either left Roshar or, at the very least, that the Uvara were not native to Roshar. Here's the relevant excerpt: Sure makes it seem like that whirlpool might be a perpendicularity, no? As for where Derethil might have gone or whom he encountered, I wasn't able to find any references in any other cosmere books to people wearing shells in their hair. But I'd put my money on Sel. Long, limber bodies wearing robes? Sounds like Elantrians maybe? The other tidbit that makes me suspect it's Sel is Derethil's name itself. It's strikingly similar to Dereth, as in the founder of Shu-Dereth, the religion that's all about obedience and hierarchy and doing what you're supposed to. As you may recall, in the Wandersail story, the Uvara brutally slaughtered any of their people who made even a small mistake. When pressed as to why they did this, they replied "Our emperor will not suffer failure." Which, once I thought about it, reminded me of a scene from Elantris. This is from Ch. 60 when Hrathen realized that he'd actually met Dilaf before: So, yeah, good call on the Isis/Osiris connection. Just look at this crazy path it led me down. Anyway, thought you might appreciate the update.

The plot thickens. From further down the Wikipedia article: A dragon eh? So I continued down the rabbit hole and read up on this Ereshkigal character and found a connection to another figure from mythology who is likely the namesake of an SA character. She was married to Nergal.

I don’t know about the being Odium’s champion part of the theory (although frankly I like it) but I am increasingly convinced that he wasn’t fully “dead” when Szeth left him. If you read that scene in the WoK prologue carefully, it certainly seems like Gavilar saw that Szeth had summoned his Shardblade, and then he stalled for time. He gave Szeth the anti-Voidlight gemstone and asked him to leave a message for Dalinar, and then he “fell still.” That falling still, coupled with the Shardblade dropping seemed to be enough to convince Szeth that he died. But Gavilar totally could have been faking and using the time he bought to summon the Shardblade to make it look like he died. (I’m not sure in the mechanics of this. Is it possible to summon a blade but have it appear somewhere other than your hand?) Then, at Gavilar’s funeral, there’s the mysterious reference by the Soulcaster about the stone replacing one of his eyes being the only part of him that is true. Why was one of his eyes replaced? I read back through the prologues and there’s nothing in there about either of his eyes being damaged or injured. When Navani sees his body lying on the table, she closes his eyes at one point. And as far as I remember we’ve not been told that replacing eyes with stone is a common practice. So what gives? Lastly, this line from the RoW prologue jumped out at me: You which deity is not listed there? Could it be the one who explicitly claims that he’s the only one who does care about the desires of men? I think I’ve been convinced that Gavilar survived as a CS. And I think it’s possible that Odium had a hand in it.

I've found a few pre-RoW threads comparing Cultivation to the Greek goddess Persephone. It makes sense. In Greek mythology, one of her roles was as the goddess of spring. She became queen of the underworld after she was abducted by Hades (with her father Zeus's approval). Her return to the surface represents her role as the embodiment of spring. She was worshipped for being responsible for the growth of new vegetation. What I didn't know, however, and what is cool now that we know the vessel's name (Koravellium Avast and/or Koravari) is that Kore and/or Kora were apparently alternative names/titles for Persephone. You can read more here. Given the Persephone reference, it seems pretty likely, then, that the myth we heard about back in TWoK about Parasaphi and Nadris was likely a reference to Cultivation. Bringing forth new life from the stone ground? Sounds pretty Cultivation-y. Anyway, just wanted to share this little tidbit about Kora. Edit: because I can't stop myself, here's another little thing I found - vari is a sanskrit word for rain or water; so if you take kora, which essentially means maiden, and vari - you get the rain/water maiden; which is fitting given that Nazh refers to Cultivation's vessel as "She Who Brings the Dews at Dawn"

I’ve been tempted to chime in on this thread many times, but have so far held off. But I did want to thank @Honorless for such a thoughtful post and replies. And I wanted to applaud @king of nowhere for being open and making an effort to understand some of the issues faced by the lgbt community. Not to make light of it, but I kinda feel like there ought to be air horns and party music playing because ... you guys ... one person helped change another person’s mind by commenting on the internet! I think you both get to put that on your resume now for being a part of it. More substantively, I’d love to see Brandon make use of the possibility he’s set up with Shallan to explore a bi character who is in a hetero marriage. Given some of his comments about Veil being the only way Shallan might have been comfortable expressing that part of her, I’m guessing not, but it’d be nice for us married bi folks.