mdross81

“Nonsense! Why would I leave my babies in a drawer? Far too boring. A highprince’s shoe though…”

I don't remember seeing this theory elsewhere, but if I've inadvertently repeated what someone else has said, my apologies. So, the Ghostbloods are trying to figure out (actually, they claim to have already figured out) the trick for exporting/converting Stormlight as part of their cosmere-wide commercial ambitions (and maybe to help out a certain stubborn cognitive shadow). And at the end of RoW, Mraize tried to task Shallan with finding Ba-Ado-Mishram. I think you can see where this is going. What if the Ghostbloods haven't figured out the trick so much as they've discovered that someone else knew the trick. What if Ba-Ado-Mishram knew, or had figured out, the trick for converting one form of Investiture to another? Let's say, maybe converting Stormlight to Voidlight? This theory might help explain the False Desolation, during which BAM was able to connect with all of the Singers and provide them with forms powered by Voidlight. We've never gotten an explanation of how she was able to provide the Voidlight. In present-day Roshar, the only way to get Voidlight seems to be directly from Odium by singing the Song of Prayer. And from the way Ulim described BAM's downfall to Venli, it doesn't sound like Odium was on board with what BAM was doing. That makes me doubt that she got the Voidlight directly from Odium. But she did still have a strong Connection to Odium. Presumably she still has a Connection to Honor as well, and Stormlight's freely available in every highstorm. So, perhaps BAM found a way to convert that into Voidlight. I think this also fits fairly well with most of the theories I've seen trying to tease out the linguistics of BAM's name: Ba - I've seen this as either "child of" or "soul of" Ado - likely means "light," but I've also seen suggestions that it could refer to Adonalsium or to divinity in general Mishram - I've seen this separated out into Mish (as in Mishim, the moon associated with Cultivation) and Ram (related, via linguistic drift and forced symmetry, to "merem" which means honor) (hat tip to @LewsTherinTelescope). Alternatively, I've theorized that it might be based on the Sanskrit word "misra" which refers to a mixed song. Add to the above, the fact that when BAM was imprisoned the Sibling lost the ability to hear Honor's tone, and we can start to get a pretty good sense of at least the concepts that are associated with BAM and may have given her her name. It seems likely BAM has something to do with a mixing or combination of Honor's and Cultivation's lights/tones/Investiture. And upon being Unmade by Odium, we can then throw Odium's light/tone/Investiture into the mix as well. From there, it doesn't seem a far cry to suggest that BAM may have been able to convert one form of Light into another. In the end, the Ghostbloods' pursuit of the leaders of the Sons of Honor seemed to really be about getting to Restares (Kalak). Why? Because he was there when BAM was imprisoned and therefore might have some information about where to find her. And why do they want to find her? Well, I think it just might be because she knows the secret to converting Investiture from one form into another. Bonus theory taking this a step farther: what if, in addition to converting between different Lights, BAM had also figured out anti-Lights? Maybe that's the real reason BAM was imprisoned. Because of how dangerous anti-Light is. This might also help to explain where Gavilar got his sphere of anti-Voidlight. Anyway, let me know what y'all think.

Wow. I hadn’t considered that interpretation. I had just figured he was referring to Voidspren. But you could totally be right.

I like the theory and look forward to your post. The Tanavast from the "In the Top Room" vision has always reminded me a lot of Leras in Secret History. But I guess he must have still been alive when he crafted the visions? I've always wondered how to reconcile him seeming sane in the visions with what the Stormfather said about him raving at the end. I suppose he could have crafted the visions just before taking an action that he knew would cause him to go mad. Or maybe he'd been losing his mind for a while, but Kora was able to give him a brief period of sanity in which to craft them?

Devl in Airs. It's wordplay. Boom, he's clearly a Worldhopping Voidspren. I'm obviously kidding. I tend to agree with @Kingsdaughter613 that I get Kelsier vibes here. He trades in secrets: He expects Wax, a major player in the events on Scadrial these days, to be arrogant, and is surprised when he's not. Spending time around Kel might make someone expect arrogance from someone like Wax. He tries to push Wax to question what's out there beyond the Elendel Basin and the Roughs. Indeed, he seems concerned with putting money behind the exploration of things beyond. He talks about Kelesina using metaphors about predator/prey. And he says he's planning to "get out" I mean, could be nothing, But if he's something beyond what he appears, seems most likely to be tied to Kel. Lastly, mild Stormlight spoiler:

Definitely fishy. Add in the fact that the Fused have to steal Singer bodies when they Return to Roshar. Do they somehow have other bodies available to them on Braize or is it just their souls torturing the Heralds? And if it's just their souls, why do the Heralds experience the torture so viscerally? I was looking back at the Prelude recently and one of the things Kalak thinks jumped out at me: Does this mean there's some point where the torture stops and then it starts again the next day? Do they get a new body each day on Braize? I could just be reading into the phrasing too much.

That's true, but these two WoBs suggest that there would need to be some fix for powering them: and Certainly not insurmountable, but the cosmere is moving in the direction of people figuring out how to power one type of magic with another. And Roshar has freely available Investiure. Still, the conversion is an issue that would need to be figured out.

All valid points. I suppose I could try to thread the needle and say that when Odium said he knew that Dalinar would release him, he meant it more tangentially. That by turning to Odium it would be such a symbolic defeat and so devastating to morale that it would drive Honor out of the hearts of enough men (coupled with the countries that had joined Odium willingly) that it would make it possible for Odium to break free. But that’s starting to be a somewhat tortured defense of my theory and still doesn’t address what Cultivation’s role might be. Sure wish we knew more about how Honor and Cultivation’s power seals Odium in the Rosharan system.

I think it’s more likely that Shai is Zu and that she used the guard’s name and demeanor as part of crafting a soul stamp. Zu already shares a lot of characteristics with some of the personas of Shai’s other soulstamps. She has a warrior one, a survivalist, a scholar who speaks a variety of languages. And the warrior one already has the sort of excitable, challenge-seeking bravado that we see from Zu the Stoneward. Zu says that in the past she got in trouble mostly. Sounds like Shai. They share a belief in the God Beyond. Shai calls it the Unknown God, but I believe Brandon has basically confirmed that that’s the same as the God Beyond worshipped but the Iriali And as we see early on with Shai and her discussion of the stones making up her cell, she understands stones deeply, and Zu is a Stoneward. Zu didn’t like Iri or Urithiru because of too many people telling her how to live her life and too many rules. This also seems to fit with Shai who gets really steamed every time someone suggests she should be using her Forgery skills in some different way. Plus Brandon has hinted that we might see Shai pop up on Roshar: There might be other WoBs too but this was the one I remembered. Now, she would have to have figured out how to get her soul stamps to work that far away from Sel. But it seems possible that there’s a way.

As a technical matter you’re absolutely right, but Dalinar is undoubtedly the figurehead leader of the human coalition opposing Odium. And Dalinar holds the largest portion of Honor’s power. Same reason Odium went after Kaladin next, because he’s extra-aligned with Honor.

Because Dalinar represents such a large swathe of people. The idea isn’t that just any human has the authority, but that it’s held collectively by mankind. It would need to be someone with enough authority to speak for a significant enough portion of humans.

Provide/Sustain is my Bind category, as in binding the universe together at its creation. That’s kind of what I meant. Provide/Sustain is about providing, but only the minimal things necessary. I mentioned providing specifically to contrast this Strive category, which is all about making the effort to push to improve beyond that.

I've been thinking on this for a while, and reading others' groups of four, and feel like I'm ready to propose mine. So here goes. Provide/Sustain: Honor, Preservation, Devotion, Endowment Change: Ruin, Cultivation, Whimsy, Invention Strive: Autonomy, Ambition, Valor, [Wisdom/Prudence] Obey/Worship: Dominion, Odium, Mercy, [Justice?] Explanation These categories sort of came out of researching and thinking about the aspects of divinity in monotheistic traditions. The first category Provide/Sustain is sort of the "Let there be light" category. Honor for binding together matter from nothing and for natural laws (Unity if you insist). Endowment for the gift of life. Devotion for the promise to care for the life created. And Preservation as a promise that these foundational things would continue; to provide stability. The second category, Change, is pretty self-explanatory. The ability of things, once created, to grow and transform. The third, Strive, is a recognition that while Adonalisum will provide for the basics needed to sustain life, living beings have the capacity to work to improve their lives. Autonomy for a measure of free will. Ambition for the will to improve. Valor for bravery in facing uncertainty and conflict. And Wisdom/Prudence to guide them in their pursuit of a better life. The final category, Obey/Worship puts some outer bounds on the other categories. This is where we get to the jealous, love-no-god-other-than-me need for God to infallible. Dominion because Adonalsium still ultimately rules over all. Mercy because Adonalsium, by virtue of being God, can choose to bestow blessings on certain peoples as an act of divine blessing. Odium as the corollary of that, God's divine hatred doled out to those without God's favor, and to enforce his infallibility. And I slotted Justice in there as the last remaining Shard we don't know the name of. Alternatively, it could be something like Piety or Purity. My money would be on the aspects in this last category being the thing that led the Vessels to rebel against and shatter Adonalsium. What do y'all think? Lastly, just to answer @Morningtide, Change is the only Dawnshard we know for sure. The rest are just theories that have been espoused. That said, some of the more common proposed Dawnshards are Survive (based on events in Mistborn: Secret History) and Unite (because of Dalinar).

I'm not sure whether this works for or against your theory, but Dalinar does seem to give a kind of explanation of what he is shortly after declaring himself to be Unity. I've taken this to be what Dalinar means by Unity: The combination of Honor's remnants (his power), the soul of the storm, and Dalinar's will. It's reasonable to say that Dalinar's will is to see Roshar united, so that could work in favor of your theory. On the other hand, the Sleepless seemed dead set against Rysn ever becoming a Knight Radiant now that she's a Dawnshard, believing it would be dangerous. Given that we haven't seem the Sleepless come after him to try to neutralize him, and that the Stormfather hasn't said anything about Dalinar being a Dawnshard, I'm kinda disinclined to think that he is one.

Kaladin Over the Whining

I like it. And there is this bit from OB when Kal gets to Hearthstone: Could be why the winds and Syl were drawn to him.

Thanks! And yeah, "hearts of men" certainly has been a prominent theme. Enough so that I did a whole post on it a little while back. I probably overstated the cosmere-wide significance of the hearts of men in that post, but I was excited about the idea at the time.

I'm pretty sure that's the quote I put in my response above. It's from OB chapter 113. Right before the passage I included there's also this: I don't remember any time when Honor told past Radiants specifically that they would not destroy Roshar, but you're right that he had told past Radiants that their cause was righteous even though they weren't from Roshar.

I'm not sure that it does. The only reference to Honor in the gemstone archive is this: This doesn't necessarily mean they were in contact with Honor. They could have simply been observing things that led them to a belief that he was changing. Although, we do know of at least one time when they were in contact because the Stormfather does say this after the revelations of the Eila Stele come out: Regardless of whether or not they were in regular contact at that point in time, your question still stands. Why didn't Honor do anything about the Heralds shirking their responsibility and lying to the people of Roshar? My best guess (and I admit it's a complete shot in the dark) is that maybe he and Odium had some sort of agreement that their dispute would be resolved by a proxy war between the Singers led by the Unmade and the Fused and the humans led by the Heralds and the Knights Radiant, and that they would not directly intervene. I imagine that maybe Honor eventually did something to violate this agreement and that gave Odium the opening to kill him. Could explain why the Stormfather always seems sort of non-interventionist.

I'll just go ahead and start with the TL;DR explanation. Below I go through a somewhat lengthy explanation of a theory that Honor may have somehow claimed all Rosharan humans as his representatives and delegated to them, collectively, authority over Odium's binding to the Rosharan system. This protects the humans from direct attacks of Odium by virtue of the Shards' non-interference pact. And I posit that Odium created the Unmade specifically to drive Honor out of the hearts of men and thereby cause them to give up that protection. We start in RoW 99, where Wit and Jasnah have the following exchange about the contract they plan to present to Odium for the contest of champions: Super juicy stuff. There are different ways we could interpret Wit's line about the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. It could be that, because the others of the 16 knew that Odium was the most dangerous, they required a specific promise from Rayse. It could be that they all made a promise that they would hold to later promises or contracts that they make once they have taken up the Shards. But I think that the most straightforward and most likely meaning, given the context, is that this is a reference to the agreement among the Shards that they were not to interfere with one another. Here's Edgli (Endowment) talking about the agreement in her letter to Hoid from the OB epigraphs: I'll note here, that for some time I was under the - I now think mistaken - impression that the agreement among the Shards (to the extent there was one) was that they would no co-locate. But Edgli says here that the agreement was that they would not "interfere with one another." In light of that, the reference to two Shards settling in one location seems to be her saying that she thinks if two Shards do that, they will inevitably interfere with one another. (Side note: This could also explain why - separate and apart from what Brandon has said about the Shards' agreement not rising to the level of an oath - Honor didn't view himself as violating any agreement by going to Roshar with Cultivation. Maybe he simply believed that he and Cultivation worked together and did not interfere with one another.) Which brings us back to how making Wit a contractual liaison of Honor affords him protection. It's because it makes him a representative or agent of Dalinar, and by extension, Honor. And Wit says that will protect him from direct attacks from Odium. This suggests that the Shards' agreement not to interfere with one another extends to representatives or agents of the Shards. If a Shard directly attacks such a representative, they violate the non-interference pact and open themselves up to an attack from the other Shards. It's worth noting here, that after Jasnah asks Wit who he really is, Wit responds that he's someone who turned down the offer of a Shard and who is therefore "not bound." There's at least a hint in RoW that the reason Rayse hates Wit so much is because Wit is not subject to the non-interference pact and has been going around messing with Rayse's plans over the years: The flip side of Wit not being associated with a Shard, however, would be that he would not be covered by the protections of the non-interference pact. That would explain why Wit has always been so cautious to hide from Shards. By virtue of the line added to the contract, however, Wit now gains the protection. (with this protection in place, maybe in MB era 2 Wit will accede to Harmony's request that he come out of the shadows) Wit seems to have explained to Dalinar that he falls under the protection of the pact. Here's Dalinar thinking to himself to stay calm when Rayse gets mad during their contract negotiations in RoW 112: That last line there is interesting. It seems Wit had explained to Dalinar that Rayse couldn't attack him. But Wit didn't explain the part about it possibly leading to Rayse's death. Dalinar seems to have figured that out from the earlier part of his conversation with Rayse where he asked what would happen if Rayse broke their contract: I'm also intrigued here by the line about Honor doing something to prevent Odium from using his powers on most individuals. The Stormfather told us in OB that Honor loved humankind and died defending them. And back in WoR 82, the Stormfather said this: I think that line about the winds men must feel could mean that the Stormfather has to bring the highstorms regularly to keep reminding men of Honor; maybe even to touch a part of them that is attuned to Honor. I've been kicking around a theory that Honor somehow delegated down and dispersed to the humans of Roshar, collectively, the power to release Odium from his bonds, thereby making humans representatives of Honor whom Odium could not then directly attack. Maybe this collective delegation is why Unity is so important. And maybe this is what all of the talk about Honor living on in the hearts of men is about, and why Wit seems to believe that the real contest will be about the hearts of men and women. Here's he and Jasnah again in RoW 99: I think this idea also fits in with how Odium uses the Unmade, as a way to try to corrupt the hearts of men. He can't attack people directly, so he sends the Unmade to sow discord and division and drive Honor out of the hearts of men. This WoB seems to be more about how Odium wasn't involved in the creation of the humans on Roshar, and therefore can't exploit the cracks in their souls the same way Ruin could on Scadrial where he had a hand in creating the humans. But it also suggests that Odium uses the Unmade to try to accomplish the same types of things. He's not attacking, just twisting their motivations and desires: It's also interesting to note here that common-form Singers appear to have a natural defense against having cracks in their soul exploited. Presumably this is because the spren that they bond in order to take on their forms fill in those cracks. At any rate, this makes me think that the Unmade were crafted specifically for the purpose of corrupting the hearts of men. As we know, Odium simply destroying or subjugating the humans of Roshar will not release him from his bonds. If Honor did, as I've theorized, disperse the authority to free Odium to the humans of Roshar, then it makes sense that Odium would try to drive as many people as possible to turn away from Honor, and thereby remove the protections afforded by being representatives of Honor. This brings me to one more reference to the protections afforded to most humans on Roshar. It appears in the last Taravangian Interlude (I-12) before the climax of the book. Sja-Anat has come to speak with Taravangian and offered to assist him in drawing Odium's attention, and then closes with this warning: What if the purpose of the Unmade is to drive as many humans as possible to make choices or deals that exempt them from the protection of being representatives of Honor? Maybe if Odium can pull enough of them (it would have to be a lot, I think) outside of that protection and then exert direct influence on them he can convince them to release him? I'm interested as always to hear others' thoughts. [Edit] I had two additional thoughts to add. One is about how pleased Odium was with the size of the coalition that Dalinar had gathered for the Battle of Thaylen Field, and correspondingly how devastated he was when Dalinar didn't turn to Odium. If Odium was trying to turn as many hearts of men against Honor as possible, imagine the effect of Dalinar putting together this grand coalition in the name of Honor and Unity, and then turning and agreeing to be Odium's champion. Oof. That's like a kill shot. The second concerns Ruin and Preservation. If the pact the Shards made was about not interfering with one another, it was probably smart of them to make what seemed like a formal agreement outlining how they were going to cooperate to create Scadrial. Might have saved them from an accusation that they violated the pact.

Back on page 10 of this thread (3:26 PM on 4/11/21) I have a comment that goes through the sequence of events between Navani figuring out the anti-Voidlight tone and her making the sphere with anti-Voidlight. One thing that I had said there was that I thought the reason why Navani was pursuing anti-Voidlight was because she was seeking a weapon to use against Odium, but I couldn't remember where that appeared in the book. I found it now, and just thought I'd drop it here since you're talking about the context in which Navani pursued anti-Light. It's in Chapter 84. This is after she's combined Stormlight and Voidlight into Warlight, but before she's figured out the anti-Voidlight tone. This passage shows the context and Navani's two motivations: wanting to pursue scholarship/see what she could do, and wanting to create a weapon to fight Odium. I'm not wading back into the dispute about whether or not she should have taken the course of action she did, because I made my peace with that yesterday. But I thought that having this passage here for reference might be useful to the ongoing conversation because it shows the turning point when she makes the decision.

I agree with both of your main points about the incorrect assertions. The main concern I have going forward with anti-Lights is the question of whether Team Radiant can find a way to access enough Voidlight that they can turn into anti-Voidlight for it to be a level playing field. Stormlight is doled out freely in every high storm. But I think Voidlight is going to be harder to come by.

Thanks for this. We’re all on team Brandon in the end.

Dude. The snarky tone is just not necessary. Especially when I’m admitting to softening my opposing viewpoint. And stop mischaracterizing what I say. She didn’t make the super weapon for the enemy. She tried to make it for herself, and the procedure she used fell into enemy hands. I didn’t say she knew the enemy was lying about what anti-Voidlight could do. I said it’s not clear whether Navani thought it capable of destroying Odium or just capable of being used as a weapon against the Fused. In either event she wanted to use it for her side. And of course they would have torn apart the room to find the notebook. I don’t get the sarcasm quotation marks. I never suggested those with opposing viewpoints need forgiveness. Simply made what I think is a completely reasonable acknowledgement that I can respect different views. Chill out.

I'm going to take your response here as maybe begrudging acceptance that trying finding the anti-Voidlight tone to help the Sibling was a worthwhile pursuit for Navani. That's not the recklessness, right? It's taking the next step and using the tone to create anti-Voidlight that you take issue with. Which seems fair, so I went back to chapter 97 to look at what happens in between. And I'm going to go through what happens with an eye toward being as objective as possible. The day after Navani has created the metal plate and figured out the anti-Voidlight tone, she sets to work on seeing whether she can create anti-Voidlight. I think (based on prior discussions and something that Navani thinks later) that the reason she's continuing to try to figure out how to make anti-Voidlight (as opposed to just stopping with the tone) is that Raboniel has dropped hints that it might be possible to make a weapon that could hurt and/or destroy Odium. At this point, Raboniel isn't paying much attention to Navani because they've destroyed all but one of the nodes and think they are close to finding that one as well. Raboniel shows up, however, her interest piqued by Navani's latest request for equipment. So, she at least knew that between the equipment request and the terrible sounds the Fused guard heard, Raboniel might come around, and Navani had come up with a plan. Raboniel asks Navani what she's working on and Navani tries to deflect the questions, saying it's not really anything of note; no big deal if they can't find the equipment. Raboniel keeps asking though, so Navani asks Raboniel about axi and polarity. Raboniel sees the bucket of icy water where Navani is experimenting to see if temperature could blank the tone of Voidlight. She tells Raboniel she's just trying to see if temperature changes an infused gemstone's rhythm and asks Raboniel to help her out with the experiment, which shows no change in the rhythms. So Navani's got a cover story, and it almost works. Navani tries to act nonchalant while making some notes about the experiment and is hoping Raboniel will leave it there. But then Raboniel starts picking through plates and finds the anti-Voidlight one, though Navani had tried to hide it. Raboniel plays it and learns that Navani has figured out a tone that forces Voidlight out of a gem. Raboniel reconsiders the ice bucket experiment and Navani's questions about axi in light of this revelation and figures out that Navani was trying to find a way to dampen the vibrations so she could rewrite the tone. Raboniel is excited and Navani feels caught up in the excitement too, but regains some degree of composure and remembers the plan she's been making in case Raboniel caught on: Navani tries to lie and say she hasn't written this down, but Raboniel calls her bluff and ensures her that the Fused will rip apart the room to find the notes. Navani relents and gets the notebook from where she'd hidden it. Navani acknowledges it was probably a mistake to write it down but also that she wouldn't have gotten this far without doing so: As Raboniel sits down to read the notes, the vacuum tube Navani had requested arrives. Navani then uses the vacuum tube and the anti-Voidlight plate to rewrite the Voidlight, resulting in the sphere infused with anti-Voidight. She's done it and Raboniel knows it, so Navani has to hope that her plan to try to deal with such an eventuality will work. Navani feigns exhaustion and leaves the room, knowing what Raboniel will try to do next and that it will cause an explosion. Navani was right, but the explosion, unfortunately, did not kill Raboniel. Here are Navani's thoughts immediately after: So that's the ballgame in terms of the Fused now knowing how to create anti-Voidlight and by extension anti-Stormlight. Where does this leave things in terms of reviewing Navani's actions? I can bend a little in my defense of her actions and admit that maybe she shouldn't have tried to create the anti-Light in the first place. Raboniel was lying about anti-Light truly being a threat to Odium, but it's not clear whether Navani fully believed it would threaten Odium or if she just thought it would be something she could weaponize to fight off the occupiers. I think a close review of the sequence of events should put to bed the arguments that Navani was simply a captured scientist dutifully creating a super-weapon at her captor's request. She had her own agenda for creating it, tried to hide what she was working on, and had a plan to try to kill Raboniel with the explosion in the event that her work was discovered. Was her plan good enough? Obviously not since it didn't work. But she had one. She tried. She wasn't entirely naive and reckless. In the end, this doesn't change my mind about Navani. Desperate times, desperate measures, she took a calculated risk. I don't think the actions disqualify her from bonding the Sibling. I know some on this thread believe that unchained Bondsmith powers are just so overpowered that basically no one is worthy. I respect that viewpoint, but I'm not engaging it here because it's not the story that's being told. I'm dealing with a world in which we accept that some people are going to be deemed worthy and I don't hold Navani's actions during the occupation against her worthiness. I can accept and respect that others disagree. I suspect it won't change others' minds either, but hopefully it helps to have something laying out the exact chain of events so we can discuss specifics rather than making generalized arguments pro and con.