mdross81

You know, I thought about this almost as soon as I hit submit on my last post. That's fair. She did have that one stretch where she was feverishly focused on creating anti-Light seemingly to the exclusion of all else. Best defense I can offer is that she was desperate to find something she could use to help the Sibling. She does explicitly say to the Sibling just prior to bonding that she made anti-Voidlight for the Sibling, to help push out the Voidlight corrupting them. This is a potential knock on the writing. We probably wouldn't be having this whole argument if Brandon had given us a little more of Navani thinking along those lines and a little less of her relishing the opportunity to pursue research. On this, I would not go so far as to say she colluded. Not trying to be pedantic, but I just don't think that word accurately describes her interactions with Raboniel. To me the word collusion suggests a more willing, intentional effort to help the enemy. I don't think Navani went that far. My reading of it was that she was pursuing the research for her own ends. And she tried, albeit unsuccessfully, to hide her work from Raboniel. It's fair to argue that she didn't fully appreciate the risk and the future implications. But it goes to far, I think, to say that she was intentionally trying to give the enemy the means to kill Radiant spren. It seems you may disagree, and that's fine.

I don't agree that she didn't know about the welfare of the people in the tower. The Dabbid/Sibling allowed her to get a sense of what was happening elsewhere in the tower. As as for her thinking about being free to do research, in case I wasn't clear, I was essentially saying she could walk and chew gum at the same time, or recognize a silver lining of an otherwise terrible situation. It would be problematic if she had thought exclusively about her freedom to pursue research, but I don't think that she did. The quest to better understand Light was part of her Radiant journey. From the excerpt that was posted above: This was her journey. I don't think that her taking advantage of the opportunity to further that journey was wrong.

@Jenet for the win. Also a good reminder that we should always go back to the text when these arguments start to stray.

First, I don’t think Vorinism says anything about the Fused. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you meant to say Voidbringers. Second, she may still hold some level of devotion to Vorinism. But she’s also way too smart to ignore just how much the events of the preceding year+ before RoW show that Vorin doctrine was wrong about a lot of things. I mean she provided the key to decoding the Dawnchant, which led to the reveal that the term voidbringer originally referred to humans. Her husband received visions from the Almighty explaining that he died. And her personal experiences with Rlain and Raboniel couldn’t help but challenge the view that singers are simply evil demons. Her religious faith doesn’t get you there with establishing the supposedly obvious red flags given the contradictions presented by her actual experiences. So I hold to the view that the dangers of collaborating on research were not as obvious as you’ve made them out to be. And that Navani recognized some of the danger but took a calculated risk.

This is just a flat out exaggeration and oversimplification and you keep coming back to it. The red flags, to the extent they were evident at all, would not have been nearly as clear to an in-world character as they might have been to you as a reader. And Navani did recognize some of the dangers of what she was doing, but took the risk anyway because she thought it might help her fight back. And she clearly wasn’t just playing at a dream job. She assessed the situation and saw an opportunity to put her significant wealth of knowledge of fabrial technology to use to help fight off an invading force.

The argument I’m making is that your contention that she’s merely a dabbler in fabrial science doesn’t hold up. To whatever extent she’s viewed herself as merely a patron in the past, it’s clear that that’s been the result of Alethi society generally and Gavilar in particular belittling and gaslighting her. Ok, but the tone was a necessary step in creating anti-Light. And even if she got lucky, it doesn’t change the fact that her actions headed off death and disaster as I said. You have to balance the negative outcomes with the positive when someone is in as dire a situation as she was. So why not give Navani some time to prove herself like Dalinar has had? Honor’s no more dead now than he was when Dalinar became a Bondsmith. Moreover, I still just don’t see the evidence of this supposed severe lack of control from Navani.

Ok, point me to all of the posts reassessing Dalinar’s worthiness as a Bondsmith now that we’ve seen the Ishar scene.

This is just nonresponsive to the argument I was making. What wasn’t a priority? This doesn’t respond at all to my contention that she had a deep understanding of fabrial technology. And that understanding, by definition, makes her more than a dabbler as you called her. She used anti-Light to fight against Raboniel, and anti-tones, which were crucial to the development of anti-Light, to fight off Moash. Those actions together prevented the corruption of the Sibling and enabled the restored suppression of Voidlight powered surges. Without that, the tower falls and the comatose Radiants die, plus all the other negative consequences that would flow from the Fused retaining control of Urithiru.

You say that you don’t necessarily think that Dalinar is worthy either. But here’s the difference. I don’t recall a whole lot of commentary making the argument that Dalinar was unworthy to bond the Stormfather after WoR. Whereas, now with Navani, there seems to be a die hard contingent dedicated to proving her lack of worthiness. And it doesn’t make sense to me. And she also prevented other death and destruction that would have occurred had she not acted. This just doesn’t hold up. Maybe she’s not involved in the manufacturing process of fabrials, but I don’t think at this point anyone can question her mastery of the technology of fabrials and her understanding of how they work. Can we please put to bed this idea that she’s just a dilettante patron of fabrial science?

This is simply not true that she only thinks about being free to pursue scholarship. From chapter 49: I’m sure I can find more examples as well. And I don’t view it as problematic that she does think about being free to perform scholarship. It’s built into her character that she’s always wanted to and been capable of doing more, but couldn’t because she was always doing her duty by attending to more mundane, but still important, tasks that otherwise wouldn’t get done. It doesn’t come across to me that she lets that sense of freedom overwhelm other considerations about her situation. But I can see where for others it might because I think Brandon returned to that idea a lot to hammer on that theme with Navani. On a personal note, for anyone like me who is in the role of default parent - the parent (usually, but not always, the mom) the kids automatically come to and the one who thinks about and attends to the things that need to get done for a family but aren’t really that interesting or fulfilling - Navani’s thoughts about freedom to pursue her scholarship, even if under less than ideal circumstances, were very relatable. I grant that she maybe came off as uncharacteristically gullible, but that’s to us readers who know a lot more than she does. It’s not as though Navani has spent a lot of time dealing with a Bondsmith tower spren or an ancient Fused scholar before. It’s not surprising that she would make some mistakes.

After disagreeing with @Bejardin1250 for much of the day in another thread about Navani, I’m glad to be able to come here and wholeheartedly agree on The Lopen. I would encourage him to stick as many people as he could to the wall.

This does not seem at all realistic. How are Kal and Navani going to escape? What would give them the confidence that the Fused wouldn't find the nodes? How, exactly, are Shardbearers going to do anything to Oathgate spren? And why? How is this siege going to work? Their powers will fail before they ever get close enough to be a threat, and the Fused can use their surges as needed to circumvent the siege. Even if Lift were somehow able to awaken the Radiants they still wouldn't have access to their powers. Look, I'm not going to argue that Navani didn't act somewhat recklessly, but I think it was an acceptable risk under dire circumstances and should not disqualify her from bonding the Sibling. I understand if you disagree.

That's a false dichotomy. She both led and pursued scientific research. And I don't think it was remotely possible for her to know the full extent of what anti-Light might lead to. She wasn't just tinkering for the sake of it, but trying to stall for time and find a way to help the Sibling. She took the chance that was available to her by working with Raboniel, and still tried to fight back in what small ways she could under the circumstances. And the progress she made on the research is what led Raboniel to slow-roll the efforts to find the nodes and complete the corruption of the Sibling. Play out what would have happened if Navani "didn't give an inch." The Fused, with the Radiant-suppression remaining in full effect, would have been able to hang onto Urithiru indefinitely. They eventually would have found the nodes and Kaladin, completed the corruption of the Sibling, and killed the captive Radiants. I don't see how her actions prove that she can't be trusted with the powers of a Bondsmith. In fact, one could argue that her firsthand experience of the unintended consequences of experimenting with powers not fully understood will make her all the more likely to be cautious going forward.

I keep wanting to let it go, but this doesn't hold up either. How can she prove she can handle the power before she even has the power? Did Dalinar prove that he could handle the power before being chosen? I mean it was a near miss on Dalinar giving in to Odium's attempt to make him his champion. And several times he's pushed on his bond with the Stormfather in ways that the Stormfather has hinted could have drastic consequences. I don't know that he's shown he can handle the power either. It's like Tien said to Kal in the vision before he swore the fourth ideal - you're good enough for me. I think that, in-world, the Stormfather and the Sibling have decided that Dalinar and Navani respectively are worthy enough for them. It's fine to dislike that. But I think it works with the theme of how holding to an overly rigid concept of Honor can be problematic. The characters are all learning to adapt to new realities.

Some of these responses from the anti-Navani contingent are just getting ridiculous: Oh, sure, just go get a larkin. Hide your journal in furniture Kaladin was a one-man stop to the invasion (please, it required Dabbid, Rlain, Venli, Lift, the Sibling, Wit, that random ardent, and ... yes ... Navani supporting him for Kaladin to do what he did) I mean, we're clearly not getting anywhere. I've tried to understand the reasons underlying the hardcore commitment some of you have to the idea that Navani is unworthy, and I just don't. I'm guessing you also don't get my view that she is worthy. So let's leave it there. Agree to disagree.

I think it's only 33% (the options of MM, MF, and FF) but point taken. That said, I'll also let my feminist flag fly though and say that sometimes I detect an undercurrent of - let's call it a spectrum from unconscious bias to outright misogyny - to some of the remarks critical of Shallan and Navani.

Fair enough. I guess we just disagree. I think Navani's lack of confidence was holding her back from contributing, and I'm glad she was given the opportunity to get off the sidelines (even if under less than ideal circumstances). I don't understand your point about showing greater restraint. It's not as though she has some established trait of lacking restraint. And she did come to question what she was doing in trapping spren and pledged to find a way forward with the Sibling. So she did come to be a better person. I would disagree. But I would do so because of evidence from the books, not just because I thought other people were too high on him. This is the first time I've mentioned it. And I do so because it's a commonality between the two characters you've expressly said you dislike.

Why is "character development" in quotation marks and why is it a problem for characters to be rewarded for it? Both Kaladin and Dalinar exhibit character growth and are rewarded with higher levels of power as well. Also, just trying to take Navani down a few notches to the level you think she deserves to be valued at, as opposed to what others think of her, is not a very compelling justification for your position. Lastly, you're kinda admitting that you just don't like reading about two of the most prominent female characters. That's fine, but it might be injecting some bias into your discussion of their merit as characters and their arcs.

I don't understand. Are you saying that you think Brandon has written Dalinar and Navani in a way that portrays them as too perfect, and therefore not believable? Or that you don't like that Brandon created such an over-powered role as the Bondsmith because you can't imagine anyone being worthy of wielding the power?

That's an interesting position. Presumably it's because of the nature of the Bondsmith powers, particularly now that Honor is dead? You just think that no one should be able to wield that kind of power? I can ... kinda see that. But to be honest, I'm not sure I'd be interested in reading a story about whoever you're envisioning being worthy of the powers, because it sounds like they would have to be so perfect as to basically be unbelievable as a character. I'll take flawed characters who can grow and change every time.

I think @Infinitysliver's original post was just trying to appreciate how the criticisms that Gavilar threw at Navani in the prologue were foreshadowing the ways in which Navani would later prove him wrong. And I think in pretty much every instance she does prove him wrong. You claim to be a scholar, but where are your discoveries?; and later: You are no scholar. -- I think everyone agrees that she is a scholar You study light, but your are its opposite. A thing that destroys light. -- obvious foreshadowing of anti-Light You spend your time wallowing in the muck of the kitchens and obsessing about whether some insignificant lighteyes recognizes the right lines on a map. -- Her wallowing in the muck of how things work and understanding of how to navigate personal politics prove important to the coalition's efforts You are no artifabrian. -- she clearly is one You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. -- I don't think anyone can deny that she now has all three The only thing that Gavilar threw at her that seems to be up for debate is "You are not worthy." But to be clear, the context of Gavilar saying that was him saying that she was not worthy of being involved in his secretive plans. That is different from the question of her worthiness to bond the Sibling. I'm curious for those who take the view that Navani should not be bonded to the Sibling - is it more about concern for the Sibling or about disliking Navani? I can get the former, but the latter - particularly the argument that she is not responsible enough to be entrusted with Bondsmith powers - doesn't track for me.

Totally fair to say that just because Brandon said it in the text doesn’t mean we have to think that it worked or made sense. And as to the theme, I wasn’t arguing that it supported my view so much as just pointing out that I thought it fit nicely. More substantively, regarding the Sibling’s desperation, as I said in response to @Frustration above, I don’t think the bond would have taken if the Sibling didn’t, at the very least, believe that Navani had shown herself to be capable of being worthy.

The Sibling does not say that, you are right. So it’s fair to question whether (as I contend) the Sibling had an epiphany and changed their mind or whether the Sibling was just desperate. I’ll grant that the reversal - if it happens - happens really quickly. But I guess I look at it in a way similar to Kaladin and the fourth Ideal. He had known for a while the Words he needed to say, but he couldn’t believe them, and therefore his swearing the Ideal could not be accepted. If, in that moment, the Sibling didn’t think that Navani was worthy - or at the very least had shown herself capable of becoming worthy - I don’t think the bond would have taken.

And then the Sibling changed their mind. Which, actually, fits really well with some of the themes in the book of realizing the agency of spren and that they can change. It wasn’t a matter of Navani needing to change. It was a matter of the Sibling coming to realize that Navani had honorable, worthy, intentions in addition to some folly. I haven’t read it, but will check it out. For me, the scene worked.

I’ve been watching this thread with a mixture of amusement and annoyance. I am going to plant my flag firmly in the pro-Navani camp. Seems to me that most of the anti-Navani viewpoints are based on looking at the question of worthiness through the lens of the Stormfather and Dalinar. But given the three unique Bondsmith spren, isn’t it possible that they have unique and independent views of worthiness? More substantively, I don’t think that the Sibling just accepted Navani out of desperation. I think that the Sibling was being (understandably) stubborn right up until the point when they heard the Rhythm of War and saw humans and singers finding common purpose in defending the unconscious Radiants; and when Navani, with storming Moash walking toward her intending to kill her, rather than trying to save herself, inverted Odium’s tone to try to drive the Voidlight out of the Sibling. Then Navani, having shown she can act with honor, finds Honor’s tone, and is able to modulate and find harmony with the Sibling, reminding the Sibling of the emulsifier, the common purpose between humans and spren. Yes, I concede that Navani was, in part, driven by a reckless curiosity and by wanting to see if she could do something without fully thinking through whether she should. But she was also driven by trying to find a way to help the Sibling and save Urithiru. And if we’re going to forgive Dalinar’s decades as a bloodthirsty tyrant and deem him worthy, I don’t see why we can’t cut Navani some slack for not fully thinking through the implications of her research while she was under the stress of a Fused occupation of Urithiru. Also, I think Brandon literally tells us in the text that Navani is worthy: So I’m Team Navani.