mdross81

I’m glad that you’re able to maintain an optimistic attitude in dealing with depression. And I don’t mean to derail the discussion, but I think you’re taking way too narrow a view here. For many of us who suffer from the Teft/Kaladin variant of depression, hopelessness is exactly what depression is about. A sense that no matter how objectively good your life may be, you are worthless, a failure, or destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Maybe with medication and therapy someone who suffers from this form can learn interventions to help them “choose what to focus on” as you put it. But oftentimes we literally cannot choose. It’s not just pessimism. All that said, I 100% join you in hoping it’s not Moash.

In Oathbringer, we learned from Notum that Honor created the honorspren himself "many thousands of years ago." We also learned that, sometime before his death, Honor stopped making honorspren, and tasked the Stormfather with doing it instead. Now, with Syl's interlude in RoW, we get a just a little bit more detail on when true spren were created: (I note that both Notum and Syl only mention Honor when talking about the creation of true spren, but given that that all of the true spren are mixes of Honor and Cultivation, it seems likely that Cultivation had some role in their creation as well) Assuming that Syl is correct, that means that the creation of true spren likely predated the arrival of humans on Roshar. I hadn't really spent a lot of time thinking about why Honor and Cultivation created intelligent spren, but I guess before this line from Syl I had kind of assumed that their creation was tied to the arrival of humans. If that's not the case, then why were they created? I was pondering this when I came across and reread this old WOB: The lines talking about how it's dangerous to have power lying around without an entity to control it, and how it was a good thing Kelsier was around on Scadrial jumped out at me. Is it possible that, after seeing what had happened on Sel, Honor and Cultivation created intelligent spren to ensure that at least some of their power was tied to sapient cognitive entities as a safeguard in case Odium came for them? Perhaps they created true spren with an eye toward ensuring that whatever he and Cultivation did to bind Odium to Braize would continue to function? Or perhaps it was done in the hopes that it would be possible for someone to take up or reforge the Shard of Honor in the event of his Splintering? Odium flat out tells us in Oathbringer that the Splinters of Honor left behind pose a problem for him: I presume that Odium's primary concern is someone else taking up the Shard of Honor and that he sees the Splinters left behind as a possible conduit to that happening. So, maybe that was the plan - create intelligent spren to avoid a situation where you had raw Investiture rampaging like on Sel. It would explain why Tanavast wanted to pass the responsibility for creating honorspren to the Stormfather before his death. Could also be part of the meaning of the encouragement to "Unite them" in the visions he created. Interested to hear others' thoughts.

While I generally get the consensus view that Moash makes the most sense, there’s one big reason I think it might not be him. The Interludes for each of the four characters we’ve seen so far have, I think, over the course of their respective books, humanized (yes I know it’s weird to use that term given Venli and Eshonai) the antagonists, maybe even redeemed them slightly. Obviously Brandon will tell the story he wants to tell, but he’s also gotta know that a very large swath of the SA fandom has zero interest in any kind of redemption arc for Moash. I mean it’s probably an appealing challenge as a writer, but I’m not sure I see it. Of the other options discussed above, either Gavilar or El would certainly be intriguing. I find myself leaning toward it being Nale for some reason.

Yes. Kelsier uses it that way once he learns it from Khriss. But I was saying that we haven’t seen it used that general way on Roshar.

We don’t actually. Good point.

There’s a difference between being aware of realmatic theory and being cosmere-aware. And as for cosmere being a stand in for universe, that could be right but we never see anyone from Roshar other than Jasnah and Kabsal use it that way.

Yeah. That’s a brain fart on my part. Although I guess my thought was more that perhaps the SF had some ability to bestow all or some of the Cognitive shadow on someone.

While reading through one of the scenes between Kabsal and Shallan in TWoK recently, it jumped out at me that Kabsal actually used the word "cosmere" twice. This sent me on a research mission hunting for in-world use of the term to see whether it might reveal anything interesting. The word cosmere has been used in-world in Mistborn: Secret History; all of the Stormlight novels and one of the novellas (Dawnshard), and in two of the three novels from MB Era 2. No mentions in MB Era 1, Elantris, Warbreaker, or any of the other short fiction in Arcanum Unbounded. Here's what I found, listed chronologically, with some commentary. Mistborn: Secret History The term crops up twice in SH, first when Khriss breaks Kelsier's brain by explaining that there are 14 additional Shards beyond Ruin and Cultivation and that they are all on different planets. (Part Three, Chapter 2) Later, in the epilogue, a now-Cosmere-aware Kelsier drops the term when talking to Spook. Takeaways: No great insights here. It's not surprising that Khriss, an accomplished, worldhopping scholar knows the correct lingo. And of course, Kelsier's got to start showing off his superior knowledge as soon as he can. The Way of Kings The term shows up four times in Way of Kings. Hoid uses the term in his letter to Frost (Ch. 13 Epigraph). Then, in Ch. 29, Jasnah uses the term during one of her discussions with Shallan: As mentioned above, Kabsal uses the word twice when trying to explain to Shallan what the Voidbringers were. This is in Ch. 45: Finally, Hoid mentions the term to Dalinar during that weird conversation where he seems to be testing whether Dalinar has ever heard the word Adonalsium before. Takeaways: Obviously it's no surprise to see Hoid using the term. As for Jasnah and Kabsal, I think there are fairly simple explanations for both. For Jasnah, we know that she's already bonded Ivory by this point and I'm guessing the first thing she did was ask him a gazillion questions. And Kabsal, as an operative of the Ghostbloods, is likely cosmere-aware. More interesting to me is the substance of what he says. I wonder how much he is just spouting the official Vorin doctrine here about increasing good in the cosmere, or if it's more of a personal view or (probably least likely) a hint at more noble goals for the Ghostbloods than we usually think. Neither Shallan nor Dalinar respond in a way that suggests the word is strange to them. I don't know what to make of that. For Dalinar, the word came in the midst of a conversation where Hoid used a bunch of nonsense words. And Shallan is pretty much always in her own head. Or maybe this is another example of Rosharans being bad at naming things and they just think that the term applies to only Roshar (synonymous with "the world"). Words of Radiance The word cosmere is mentioned in two spots in WoR. First, in the Ym interlude (interlude 2). Ym uses the term twice while thinking to himself about his Iriali religious beliefs. Here's the first: Then later, right after using Progression to heal the boy's foot, he thinks: The second spot is in Frost's response to Hoid. Takeaways: Nothing big. No surprise about Frost. And given that Ym is Iriali and therefore likely descended from worldhoppers, it's not too surprising to see him know the word. Oathbringer Just one mention in OB. In chapter 68, Hoid uses in a conversation with Shallan about the strange man that he is: Takeaways: Again, not surprising that Hoid uses the word. But if you're keeping track at home, this is the fourth time someone has used the word cosmere while talking to Shallan. Dawnshard Spread across four different chapters (15, 17, 18, and 19) covering the climax of the novella, Nikli uses the word about five times, either referring to a duty to the cosmere or the existence of evil forces in the cosmere. Rysn repeats the word back once. Takeaways: Not surprising that the Sleepless are cosmere-aware, and Rysn seems to be just repeating the word back. Rhythm of War Unsurprisingly, the most recent SA book has the most references to the word as the peoples of Roshar are becoming more cosmere-aware. Mraize uses the word three different times when doling out little tantalizing tidbits of info to Shallan (Chapters 13, 78, and 115). Sja-anat, in her interlude, uses the word when thinking to herself. Venli also uses the word when thinking to herself in chapter 53. Kalak mentions it in the epigraph for Ch. 76. Hoid mentions it when trying to explain to Kaladin what a puppy is in Ch. 80. Raboniel mentions it once in Ch. 97 during one of her scientific discussions with Navani: Then Rayse mentions it a couple of times when haggling over terms with Dalinar in Ch. 112; and Taravangian thinks it to himself several times as he's getting a feel for his new situation in Ch. 114. Takeaways: This is the first time - on-screen at least - the either Kal or Navani hears the term. Both were in fairly intense situations at the time though. Or as discussed above with Dalinar and Shallan, it could just be that they assume it's a term that refers to just Roshar. Shallan's up to 7 references now. Venli using the word is interesting, but I think probably explained by the time she's likely spent talking with Leshwi during the time jump. The rest of the references make sense. Mistborn Era 2 I count four occurrences over the first three entries in the Wax & Wayne era. First time is when Wayne thinks it to himself in Shadows of Self, Ch. 13: Then, in Bands of Mourning Ch. 2, Steris mentions it when talking to Wax just after the wedding fiasco. Wax clearly does not know the term: In the following chapter, MeLaan uses the term while getting in a dig at VenDell: And finally Harmony uses the term in an intriguing way during while talking to Wax during the climax of Bands of Mourning. This is Ch. 28: Takeaways: Nothing surprising about MeLaan the kandra using the term. But what's going on with Wax, Wayne and Steris? Is Wax the weird one for not knowing the word? Or are Wayne and Steris the weird ones for knowing it? If Wayne and Steris are the weird ones, how did they come to know the term? And what's with Harmony using the word cosmere in place of "cognitive realm?" Is he intentionally withholding realmatic theory from Wax? Or just trying to make it easier to undestand?

I’ve been trying to think about how this might work. If I remember correctly, frequent restamping is required for a significantly transformative Forgery. And I assume that being too far away from Sel would pose a problem for that unless you have some kind of pipeline to the Dor through the Cognitive Realm like we see in Secret History. How sadly ironic would it be for Kelek if Shai had figured out some workaround. She was camped right outside Lasting Integrity with the secret Kelek needs, but because of the isolationist Honorspren, she was denied entry and eventually left.

Nice post @Jellomancer I have a pet/crackpot theory that Zu, the Stoneward, is actually Shai. The head of the guards charged with watching Shai in TES was Captain Zu. I think Shai may have co-opted parts of his personality in creating a new identity for herself. Zu is really vague in discussing her background with Adolin, but at one point, when asked what she did before becoming a Radiant, she responds like this: And of course she would be a Stoneward given how accomplished Shai was at Forging stone. A bit far-fetched I know, but for now it’s my head canon.

I like this idea and had forgotten just how much of an atium-like ability Kal has at times. Just got to this part of TWoK chapter 43 in my re-read: We still don’t really know much about what’s going on with this spear-induced future sight do we? Why do his fingers seem to burn? Just Spiritual mumbo-jumbo I guess?

I don’t think Syl has been with him since he was a child. She felt pulled to him during the time when he was fighting in Amaram’s army (coppermind article says it was some time in 1170). As to what might be special about Kal, this one line from TWoK jumped out at me recently. It’s from when he is strung up in the highstorm: I’ve seen some theories floating around that maybe the Stormfather had Tanavast’s cognitive shadow. Maybe he’d been looking for a good candidate on whom to bestow it? It’s probably a stretch but just thought I’d point it out. There’s also something to what Moash says about no one but Kal being able to kill Kal. There are moments even as early as TWoK where Kaladin very consciously chooses to keep going rather than give in to death.

And I’ll bring in Renarin as co-counsel so he can show the jury the idealized version of the client

As a real-life lawyer, and a Lightweaver per the quiz and my temperament, my mind goes straight to using illumination in the courtroom to recreate the scene and tell the story of what happened. All kinds of admissibility problems, but it’s fun to think about.

I can buy that this is a more Roshar-centric tactic of Shard conflict. Although I think there’s something going on along these lines on Sel too, what with the Fjordell folks thinking that Jaddeth will only rise once every living soul is united under Fjordell rule. Obviously we don’t have whole Shards in conflict, but certainly their remnants in the form of the skaze.

Yeah, I noticed that she fit that one really well. It’s a bit harder to find as close a fit for the other two (and I don’t know that they are necessarily meant to describe a particular character). Candidates for the first type that I considered though were maybe Sadeas and Elhokar. With all of the schemers on Roshar type three could refer to lots of folks. Taravangian, Mraize, even Cultivation or Hoid himself.

So the concept of "the hearts of men" seems like a really important one in the Cosmere. That exact phrase crops up multiple times in the Stormlight Archive, and at least once in Mistborn, Elantris, and Warbreaker. With an eye towards teasing out the importance of the hearts of men, I thought it might be useful to compile a list of the times the phrase has appeared. And then, I broadened my search to include places where it's clear characters are talking about the hearts of men, even though that specific phrase is not used. I've grouped the results into three tiers below. Tier one are times when the phrase shows up in a way that points toward the hearts of men as a central and crucial part of the events to come. Tier two are times when we get a sense of how Shards and/or those working on their behalf are battling over the hearts of men, but without any real indication of how they fit into the broader conflict. And tier three is pretty much everything else. I've spoilered the longer excerpts for tiers one and two. After researching this, I'm fairly certain that when Shards come into conflict with one another, the major battlefield is not a physical one so much as a battle for a greater number of hearts that are open to or attuned to that a particular Shard. Note: The tiers were sort of a last minute addition and attempt to organize the post, so I'd prefer not to quibble about what tier things belong in. But if you see greater relevance to some of the quotes there, feel free to point that out. Tier One - The Hearts of Men are a BFD 1. Words of Radiance Epilogue: After making a point of distinguishing Tanavast/the Almighty from capital-G God, Hoid tells Jasnah that she'll find God, and salvation from the True Desolation, in the hearts of men. 2. Rhythm of War, Ch. 99: Another Hoid and Jasnah scene; this time he tells her that the Contest of Champions will really be about the hearts of men and women 3. Rhythm of War, Ch. 87: Notum steals the show at Adolin's trial by proclaiming that "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men!" 4. Rhythm of War, Ch. 110: in a sort of counterpart to the Notum scene above, Navani here realizes that Honor lives on in the hearts of his "children" Tier Two: Passages hinting at the importance of -- and/or a Shardic fight for market share within -- the hearts of men 5. The Way of Kings, Ch. 45: historians/theologians speculate in sort of the right direction in thinking that Voidbringers could take up residence in men's hearts 6. Mistborn: Secret History, Part 6, Ch. 4: Fuzz implores Kelsier to quit toying around with the hearts of men 7. Elantris, Ch. 60: Hrathen feels conflicted about the potential destruction of Teod; one upside he considers is that "The hearts of men would increase in faith." I ... don't really get this one, but it seems important. 8. Warbreaker, Ch. 21: Vasher reminds Nightblood that his temptation trick doesn't the hearts of men who are pure 9. The Way of Kings, Ch. 38: after Kaladin takes in the Stormlight Teft offered and begins to heal, Teft uses an exclamation about the Almighty living in mens' hearts Rereading this line after RoW, it feels like incredible foreshadowing for the whole "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men" thing. 10. Rhythm of War, Ch. 114: newly-Ascended Todium realizes what a risk Cultivation took given her inability to see the hearts of men Tier Three - All the other interesting "hearts" references I found Way of Kings Ch. 22: Dalinar, citing the in-world The Way of Kings: Dueling someone because they claim I’m a coward doesn’t change their beliefs. It might stop them from making the claims, but it doesn’t change hearts. Ch. 29: Shallan making an argument that Taravangian didn't when debating religion with Jasnah: Our hearts, Brightness. I believe because I feel something, a closeness to the Almighty, a peace that comes when I live my faith. (Jasnah pushes back) But didn’t you yourself argue that the way we act – the way we feel about right and wrong – was a defining attribute of our humanity? You used our innate morality to prove your point. So how can you discard my feelings? Epilogue: Hoid, before concluding that men actually value novelty/timeliness the most: In our hearts, we want to believe in – and would choose – great accomplishment and virtue. That’s why our lies, particularly to ourselves, are so beautiful. Words of Radiance, Interlude-12: Brother Lhan getting the symbolism of the Oathgate just comically wrong: They passed into the Circle of Memories, a round room with ten lamps on the walls, one for each of the ancient Epoch Kingdoms. An eleventh lamp represented the Tranquiline Halls, and a large ceremonial keyhole set into the wall represented the need for ardents to ignore borders, and look only at the hearts of men … or something like that. He wasn’t sure, honestly. Oathbringer, Ch. 91: Tukks responding to Kal's reluctance to hurt opposing soldiers: Means your sane. I’ll take ten unskilled men with earnest hearts over one callous idiot who thinks this is all a game. Rhythm of War Ch. 4: Shallan recalling Mraize's description of the Sons of Honor: Mraize had explained about this group and their efforts to bring back the Heralds – who had actually never been gone. Gavilar had led them along, used their resources – and their hearts – to further his own goals. Ch. 74: Venli disagreeing with Lirin about the value of Kal's example: “Or maybe they simply need something to keep them going, surgeon. A symbol they can trust when they can’t trust their own hearts.” Elantris Ch. 9: Dilaf, with a prophecy he intends to self-fulfill: Jaddeth will not wait while our arteths preach His name against the unyielding walls of Teo hearts. Ch. 18: Hrathen tasking Dilaf with turning people agaisnt Shu-Korath: I will speak second, and my speech will offer logic. You, however, are more passionate – and their disgust for Shu-Korath must first come from their hearts. Ch. 32: Roial commending Sarene on putting a team together: “Ah, Princess,” Roial said, “we’ve come to rely on you so much in these last few weeks. You crept into our hearts and did what no one else, even myself, could have done – you unified us." Ch. 36: Hrathen preaching after his faked healing from the Shaod: “People of Arelon!” he yelled. “Know ye this day who is Master! Let your hearts and souls be guided by the religion which can offer evidence of divine support. Mistborn Well of Ascension, Ch. 29: Oreseur warning Vin about bad-boy Zane: “However, most kandra are very good judges of character. When you practice imitation for as long as I have, you learn to see to the hearts of men. I do not like what I have seen of Zane." Secret History, Part Two, Ch. 2: Kelsier recognizes Ruin's game: He continued to follow the Well’s pulses. These trips gave him cryptic clues to Ruin’s motives and plots. He sensed a familiar pattern to the things it changed – for Ruin seemed to be doing what Kelsier himself had done: coopting a religion. Ruin was manipulating the hearts of the people by changing their lore and their books. Shadows of Self, Ch. 20: Wax realizes the Bleeder will expose the kandra through their attempts to save the Harmony's reputation: “She knows what you’re going to do, TenSoon. What you’ve done.” He felt cold, and met the kandra’s inhuman eyes. “She’s planned that you would send your kandra to try to win back the hearts and minds of the people. That exposes you. Her next step is to bring them down. Interested to hear others' theories on the importance of the hearts of men.

Thanks! Saves me a lot of time searching through old posts. Agreed. Those two smaller circles next to each of the larger ones jumps out as weird. My first thought was surges, but then I would expect to see the same colors for adjacent larger circles, but they’re not the same.

I wasn’t as active here on the forums back when OB came out, so just wondering if there are already threads discussing what I think is imagery of the three moons in the Jezrien and Vedel (and maybe Ishar) portraits? Both the stained glass behind Vedel and the image on Jezrien’s belt feature an outer ring of circles. Inside that ring however are three circles of varying size - one blue, one green, and one violet. Seems like a pretty obvious reference to the moons to me. Has this been discussed?

Yup. Here’s the entirety of the other mention:

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Syl definitely cosplays as Ulim when she’s pretending to be a Voidspren: Can’t you see my mustache blowing angrily in an unseen breeze?

Luckily I picked up on the frequent boulder references while doing a full SA reread to prepare for RoW, so I had most of them highlighted in my ebooks already. It was just a matter of pulling them together.

It's not surprising, given the geology of Roshar, but man do Rosharans like them a boulder metaphor. Here's a rundown, sorted by character. Dalinar: highprince of boulders; basically everyone, himself included, thinks of him as a boulder; though only Sadeas is foolish enough to think he can take the boulder on OB 3 (Dalinar flashback): He hit the spearman like a boulder rolling through a grove of saplings, his sword tossing blood into the air. A good fight was about momentum. Don't stop. Don't think. Drive forward and convince your enemies they're as good as dead already. RoW 57 (Eshonai flashback): He turned, moving with the momentum of a shifting boulder, and walked toward his stormwagon. TWoK 69 (Sadeas talking to Dalinar): If it means anything, I'm fond of you. I really am. But you are a boulder in my path, and a force working - without realizing it - to destroy Gavilar's kingdom. When the chance came along, I took it. WoR 38 (Shallan): Dalinar stood up. He moved like a rolling boulder. Inevitable, implacable WoR 50 (Adolin): Dalinar was a rock, a boulder too big for even storms to move. He seemed so sure. It was something to cling to Dalinar's burdens: the boulder carries boulders TWoK 15 (Nohadon parable about helping carry a large stone): If a king is seen to assume the burden of the poorest men, perhaps there will be those who will help him with his own load, so invisible, yet so daunting TWoK 18 (responding to Elhokar asking why the Parshendi offed Gavilar): That question has churned in my head, over and over, like a boulder tumbling down a hill. WoR 85 (Dalinar realizing Szeth would have wrecked him if he hadn't been too drunk the night Gavilar died): I couldn't have saved him. It brought peace, and Dalinar finally set down that boulder, the one he'd been carrying for over six years. OB 4 (Navani, after Dalinar claims he won't carry the failure to prevent the Everstorm as a burden): I don't believe you, Dalinar Kholin. I can read the tightness of your muscles, the set of your jaw. I know that you, while being crushed beneath a boulder, would insist that you've got it under control and ask to see field reports from your men. OB 65 (Cultivation's prunings have an expiration date): Storms. He remembered. It came crashing down on him, the weight of a thousand boulders. He remembered what had happened to Evi. Navani: a boulder love story OB 1 (Dalinar): Navani Kholin was not some timid, perfect idea - she was a sour storm of a woman, set in her ways, stubborn as a boulder rolling down a mountain and increasingly impatient with the things she considered foolish. He loved her the most for that. Jasnah: fights like a boulder; but Navani - ever the pragmatist - just walks around OB 104 (Navani): Navani would talk to Renarin and encourage him to go out more with the men. There was no arguing with Jasnah, any more than there was arguing with a boulder. You just stepped to the side and went around RoW 64 (Jasnah): Her vision was clear enough to see the horror of the nearby singers as they witnessed a burning Shardbearer explode from the fires, as if from the center of Damnation itself. That fear stunned them as she hit their line like a boulder, working death upon their collapsing ranks. Kaladin: waah! I have no choice but to be the hero everyone thinks I am TWoK 9: Kaladin charged the chasm, not even flinching as men were slaughtered around him. It wasn't bravery that drove him; it wasn't even a wish that those arrows would take him and end it all. He ran. That was what he did. Like a boulder rolled down a hill, or like rain fell from the sky. They didn't have a choice. Neither did he. He wasn't a man; he was a thing, and things just did what they did. RoW 43: They were going to take Teft. Kaladin pulled open the door and stepped into the hallway, feeling the inevitable shift of a boulder perched on the top of a slope. Just. Beginning. To tip. Venli: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ RoW 77 (Venli flashback): But what could she do? She'd started this boulder rolling down the cliff. If she tried to stop it now, she'd be crushed. So she continued doing as he said. Even if, without him in her gemheart, she felt old and dull. Taln: obviously TWoK Epilogue: All was chaos and confusion as the gate boomed yet a third time, powerful, shaking, vibrating as if hit with a boulder. And then a bright, silvery blade rammed between the massive doors, slicing upward, cutting the bar that held them closed. A Shardblade. WoR 63 (Shallan): The man did not move. He did not look up, did not shift. He was life a boulder that had rolled to a stop here. And finally ... Hoid: Did someone say boulder? Let me share this thematically-relevant metaphor about boulders (OB 68) There are those who, when the boulder of time rolls toward them, stand up in front of it and hold out their hands. All their lives they've been told how great they are. They assume the world will bend to their whims as their nurse did when fetching them a fresh cup of milk. Those men end up squished. Other men stand to the side when the boulder of time passes, but are quick to say, "See what I did! I made the boulder roll there. Don't make me do it again!" These men end up getting everyone else squished. (Shallan asks whether there is a third type): There is, but they are oh so rare. These knew they can't stop the boulder. So they walk beside it, study it, and bide their time. Then they shove it - ever so slightly - to create a deviation in its path. These are the man ... well, these are the men who actually change the world. And they terrify me. For men never see as far as they think they do. So, there you have it. Boulders for everyone. As a final note, searching my ebooks for the word boulder really made me appreciate the ferocity of highstorms a whole lot more. I think I had just started skimming past the descriptions of them. But holy freaking crap they are just CONSTANTLY throwing boulders around. How long until the Stormfather accidentally throws Dalinar at someone?

I feel like it likely has something to do with Ulim’s form as moving lightning, given that that is also how Venli is able to pull the stormspren through later on. I got it. They get a giant tuning fork/lightning rod made of raysium on a boat out in the ocean and just suck him down into the gem.

I think this might be the earlier post you were thinking of. The gist was that pre-Recreance the spren would still have a valid Connection through Honor and would probably return to Shadesmar. But post-Recreance and the death of Tanavast, when a human breaks their oath, spren do not have a valid Connection through Honor, but they instead Connect to BAM, which results in their minds being trapped.