mdross81

Looking back through the notes from my re-read of RoW, I was struck by this bit from the Syl interlude: See how Syl just casually mentions the original Oathpact there? As in there is more than one Oathpact: original flavor, and Oathpact 2.0. So this got me thinking that it wasn't just the abandonment of Taln and the Honorbaldes and the parting of the ways that we see in the Prelude that changed the Oathpact. Rather, some other affirmative step was taken. I find other evidence for this theory from the following: Nale in OB Chapter 106 (emphasis added) Leshwi in Row, Chapter 14 Ulim in Row, Chapter 73 Add in the fact the several times Ishar refers to himself as the "bearer of the Oathpact," and I think there's pretty solid evidence that some additional action was required beyond just abandoning Taln and hoping he would continue to be a bad ass. So what did Ishar (and perhaps others) do to shift the Oathpact onto just poor Taln? One thought I had was that maybe they ceded some of their minds in the process and that's why (above and beyond the millennia of torture) they're all suffering insanity. I don't love this idea though because I feel like it's been done before in the Cosmere (I'm thinking of Scadrial here). Interested in others' thoughts on what might have been done to shift the pact onto Taln. On a final note, I'm struck by just how much the Oathpact was driven by the Heralds (and if Shalash is to be believed, pretty much just Ishar). The Heralds (Ishar at least) went to Honor, and he gave them this right, this oath. A Bondsmith (presumably Ishar) Connected the Heralds to Braize, and made them immortal. It all sounds a bit like Ishar cooked the whole thing up and just needed Honor to sign off on him forging the pact. I mean, yes, he gave them the Honorblades and a conduit to his power, but Ishar was really the driving force.

I tend to think that's right. Ash feels it and Taln just passes out completely. Here's the scene from OB, Chapter 121. Kelek also mentions feeling Jezrien being ripped away. On a side note, I'd really love to know what further investigation Kelek did to conclude that, although the Heralds felt him ripped away immediately, it actually took several weeks for his soul to fade away. But back to the main topic, this is why I'm of the opinion that it was something about Jezrien's soul being pulled through the raysium dagger that actually severed his Connection to the Spiritual Realm. That spiritual Connection gets severed right away, leaving just a normal cognitive being - albeit one that had been highly Invested enough that it stuck around for some time before being pulled into the Beyond. I think that a raysium dagger (perhaps needing to be accompanied by the right Intent) can cause Spiritual Division. It think this Division might even be at play for the Fused deaths that involved anti-Voidlight. Maybe you need the raysium dagger to sever the Voidlight from the Fused's soul before it can be destroyed by the anti-Voidlight. If only Navani could run an experiment for us by trying to push anti-Voidlight into a Fused through some means other than a raysium dagger.

I had considered this as one of the biggest differences between BAM and Jezrien's situations, but forgot to include it in my original post. And you may be correct that the method of entrapment in the gems has a bearing on whether the being's Connection to the Spiritual realm is severed. Given all of the talk about Adhesion being Honor's truest surge - unavailable to Odium's forces - it makes sense that they had to find another mechanism for trapping a Herald's soul.

Jumping back to the mechanics of this (assuming that things went down as Kelek believed and that no anti-Investiture was involved in Jezrien's death), I'm thinking that it was possible to pull Jezrien's soul into the gemstone because his soul was infused with Investiture and raysium conducts Investiture. Like, it wouldn't be possible to pull a regular, non-Invested person's soul into the dagger right? If that's the case, then being stabbed with the knife did not immediately sever the Investiture from Jezrien's soul, because the Investiture is what allowed it to be conducted by the raysium into the gem. But Kelek says that Jezrien's soul was left without a valid Connection to the SR. So either the process of being stabbed and pulled through the dagger, or the state of being entrapped within the gem must be the cause of severing that Connection. If it's being pulled through the dagger that severs the Connection, then was only the Investiture pulled into the gemstone and Jezrien's cognitive aspect just went wherever normal, non-Invested cognitive aspects go on Roshar before being pulled into the Beyond? Or if Jezrien's soul was pulled into the gem still Connected, what then caused the severing while he was trapped? Did the gemstone leak out the Investiture slowly because it wasn't a perfect enough gem? I'm just trying to nail down the process as much as I can. Maybe we just don't know enough yet.

I feel like there is conflicting evidence on this point. Here's the scene where the dagger first appears in OB 121: Leshwi seems to think that they're trying to kill Jezrien. But on the other hand, there's no reference to any warping or weirdness about the sapphire, it's just described as a sapphire. Pretty much every time there's anti-Investiture in a gem, someone notes the strange warping. I suppose that could be because this is Moash's POV, and he just doesn't t care enough to remark on it. Raboniel, who is perhaps not the most trustworthy source, also says that he goal was capture but that it went wrong: Seems weird to me that she would have planned to harvest Ash and Taln using raysium daggers without anti-Investiture gems but that they would have an used anti-Investiture dagger with Jezrien.

Agreed. I’m just trying to tease out the mechanics of how the chain was severed in Jezrien’s case.

That’s possible, although there is WOB:

So we’ve seen a total of 5 on-screen deaths involving Raysium daggers: Jezrien, Essu, Phendorana, Raboniel, and Lezian. For the last four, we have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics. The dagger was set to have anti-Investiture flow out, that anti-Investiture collided with and destroyed opposing Investiture, thereby killing three Fused and one honorspren. With Jezrien though, there’s no anti-Investiture involved. His physical body is killed and his spirit (some combo of spiritual/cognitive aspects I think) was sucked into a gemstone through the Raysium dagger instead of returning to Braize via the Oathpact. Kelek describes what happened next as follows: I take it from the above that all that was left of Jezrien was an ordinary cognitive being that lacked the necessary Investiture to resist being pulled toward the beyond. And I understand the lack of a valid Connection to the Physical Realm. But I’m wondering about the mechanics of the severing of his Connection to the Spiritual. I think it breaks down into two questions: 1. What exactly was the “bond” that was severed? The most likely candidate seems to be his bond to the other Heralds. But I suppose it could be to Roshar? Something else? 2. How was the bond severed? Was it the fact that what remained of him was trapped in a gemstone that severed the bond? That would seem undercut by what Kelek says about BAM. She was also trapped in a gemstone but, according to Kelek, would not fade, suggesting that merely being in a gemstone didn’t cut off her access to Investiture. (Maybe this is because Honor is dead but Odium is not) Or was it something about being stabbed with a Raysium dagger? I assume that Jezrien’s being was still sufficiently linked with Honor’s Investiture when captured because Raysium conducts Investiture. So that seems to be how he was pulled into the gem (unless there was something special about the gem?). Did the process of being pulled through Raysium sever the bond? One thing I’ve been thinking is that maybe Raysium acts as some kind of Spiritual Division. I found some evidence for this in the herald portraits in the arches in chapters in which Raysium daggers appear. In all but two chapters in which the daggers appear, either Nale’s or Chana’s (the two heralds with access to division) portraits are included. So this just has me wondering if the surge of Division is part of what severed Jezrien’s Connection to the Spiritual Realm. Interested in any thoughts.

This point about Odium potentially being involved in luring the spren to prefer humans makes so much sense. We know he's all about emotions and has the ability to inflame/strengthen emotions. And we know that the spren are drawn to humans because of the way they experience emotions. Great theorizing all around in this thread.

Yes. 100% bawled during that scene. My family was looking at me like I was crazy. I had to leave the room. I know that Brandon's treatment of Kaladin's depression in RoW has gotten a lot of praise for being really true to life. And I definitely agree that it's well done. But for me, Teft's form of depression has always been the one that hits closest to home. While I thankfully haven't dealt as much with the substance abuse side of it, Teft's self-loathing and feelings of being worthless are exactly how I've experienced depression when at its worst. I cried some when he started to overcome his self-hatred in Oathbringer. But Storms, I straight up ugly cried through his final chapters in RoW. Rest in peace, Radiant Teft.

Just had a cool thought. In Chapter 21, as Adolin watches Zu's Shardblade change forms as she performs a kata, he muses on how dead Shardblades are apparently locked into the last shape they held. Given the later reveal from Maya (WE CHOSE!!!!) it seems possible that these showy forms were Radiant sprens' way of going out in a blaze of glory. Like they struck a heroic pose to mark their sacrifice at the moment their Knight renounced their oaths. That's pretty rad and now I really want a flashback or interlude that shows the mindset of a Radiant spren in that moment. Too bad we'll probably have to wait for the back five for something like that.

I thought that Khriss's line about her best agent was likely referring to Nazh. This naturally sent me down a rabbit hole looking for evidence that Zu is somehow Nazh in disguise. There's plenty of similarities. They share a fondness for adventure and both have a propensity for getting into trouble; they are both described as being fast and as proficient scouts, they both dislike being told what to do; they both prefer bluntness to politicking or speaking in riddles; they both tend to ignore warnings. But in the end I think they just share these qualities because they both fit the model of a Stoneward, and that is why Khriss sent him to embed with that order. Despite Nazh's knack for blending into pretty much any society, it seems like too much of a stretch for him to be Zu. Doesn't mean Shai couldn't still turn out to be Zu; I just don't think the Ars Arcanum reference is to her.

I’m working through my RoW re-read and I just finished the Sja-anat interlude, which is just jam-packed with juicy lore for such a brief chapter. After discussing how some of the Unmade were practically mindless while others were crafty and conniving, Sja-anat thinks: There are some interesting parallels here to Radiant spren. She has troubling thinking without her bond to Odium, just like how Radiant spren have trouble thinking in the Physical Realm without a bond. Presumably Sja-anat has this problem because, as she notes earlier in the interlude, she exists partially in the Physical Realm. Indeed, we learn that all of the Unmade are trapped by Odium in a halfway existence between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. It’s also interesting that, just as Radiant spren in Shadesmar are revitalized by the passing of a highstorm, she was revitalized by the appearance of the Everstorm in Shadesmar. The part I’m really interested in here, though, is the concept of her bond to Odium and how it was severed. Seems to me there are two possibilities for the millennia-long absence of a bond to Odium. One is that it is a result of the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram. Several times in RoW we hear characters positing that the imprisonment had an even bigger impact on Roshar than just tearing out the Singers’ Connection and Identity. Perhaps it also disrupted the Unmade’s Connection to Odium. The other, and I think more likely, possibility is that the Unmade’s bonds to Odium were severed as a result of the Oathpact. Specifically, I think the bonds were severed for the duration of each Isolation (which we have now learned is the term for the period of time between the Heralds’ return to Braize and the start of a Return). I believe that this is an aspect of the Oathpact that we have not previously known about. We knew that, although the Oathpact prevented the Fused from returning to Roshar to inhabit new Singer bodies, it did not seal away the Unmade. They remained subtly active. I think we now know the reason why – it has to do with the fact the Unmade exist partially in the Cognitive Realm and partially in the Physical. The Oathpact likely interfered with the Unmade’s bonds to Odium because of their partial existence in the Cognitive Realm (the pact blocks the Fused, who are cognitive shadows, from leaving Braize). But it wouldn’t affect the portion of them that exists in the Physical. The magnitude of the impact on any particular Unmade is likely a function of where the Unmade falls on the mindless-to-crafty scale. Losing a Cognitive bond to Odium wouldn’t have that big an impact on Nergaoul, Ashertmarn, or Moelach, but would, I think, be a big deal for one like Ba-Ado-Mishram. Bonus theory: I’m now thinking that the appearance of the Everstorm in Shadesmar likely restored enough of Ba-Ado-Mishram’s bond to Odium to allow her to Connect to the Singers and provide them forms of power during the False Desolation.

Add to that the fact that Kelsier was encouraging Spook to experiment with the “bloody” practice of Hemalurgy

Another (admittedly minor) overlap I noticed between RoW and Emperor's Soul is that the captain of the guards responsible for watching Shai is named Captain Zu, which is also the name of the Stoneward member of of the expedition to Lasting Integrity. As I often find myself saying, it could be nothing, but it's Brandon so it also could be something. In this case, it seems a stretch too far to find a connection. Captain Zu is male, described as tall with pale skin and dark curly hair. Zu the Stoneward, on the other hand, is an Iriali female with bronze, metallic-looking skin and golden hair. Then again, just for funsies I'll note that Shai describes Captain Zu as someone who "had a look of eagerness to him" and "fancied himself bound for important things in the future." And through Adolin's POVs we get some a somewhat murky backstory for Stoneward Zu: she speaks Alethi remarkably well; she was apparently turned out by the Iriali when she first manifested Radiant powers; the Iriali thought her cursed by some strange god whose name Adolin didn't recognize; Adolin says at one point that she was the only Radiant on the expedition who "had held anything resembling a weapon before saying her oaths" but then later when he's introducing the party members to Maya and explaining their pasts, he gets to Zu and hesitates then asks what she used to do; Zu responds that she "made trouble, mostly"; Zu later claims that she worked as a guide in the Reshi isles for years, after fleeing there to find a place where people wouldn't, as she put it, keep making rules about how she should live; Adolin later expresses doubts about part of her backstory - she claimed she's picked up scouting skills as a guide in the Reshi Isles, but Adolin thought she moved with too much stealth for that she's later explicitly referred to as "eager and excitable" I don't know guys. I started thinking there was nothing to the two Zus, but given that we know the Iriali are descended from worldhoppers, that both characters are described as eager, and that Adolin doesn't seem to completely buy Zu's backstory, maybe there's something here?

These aren’t the most novel or interesting ideas, but I think the most plausible I’ve heard are Wisdom (or Prudence) and Enigma (or Mystery).

36 hours later and I’m finally done. More like Rhythm of Lore, amirite? So much info dumping and Cosmere connections. Other assorted thoughts and musings below. I think the book was definitely a bit uneven and I totally get the complaints about pacing. I mean Kal spent soooo long playing Die Hard and I was just waiting for him to inevitably swear the fourth oath. Not jazzed about Teft’s exit either. He was one of my favorites and his death just felt kinda hollow when, after spending so much time wallowing, Kal pretty quickly rallied after his death thanks to Dalinar/Tien. “We CHOSE” was definitely a high point. I’m surprised at how little of an arc Venli actually got given that this was the Willshaper book. The Navani/Raboniel portion really worked for me. That was where I saw the detail and attention to character I’m used to seeing from Brandon. I may be in the minority on this but I like the Thaidakar reveal. I know he’s frustrating but I can’t get enough of the Lord of Scars and am looking forward to learning more about what’s going on with him and the GBs. I’m frankly still too gobsmacked to know what to make of Mr. T. But, hey, sure, why not. Let’s see where this goes. There were some cool thematic threads running through. One being the frequent imagery/metaphor of people standing on an edge or precipice waiting to fall. This even cropped up in some of the fabrial stuff as well with discussion of static vs kinetic energy. Another theme that really came through was the concept of free will or choice and the meaning derived from that freedom or the lack thereof. Ok, just had to get some thoughts out so that maybe I can get some sleep now.

Thanks for the shout out to my post @KandraAllomancer! Just to add one more bit of spear iconography, here's something that I caught during a Secret History reread today. This is from the climax: This is what Brandon does to us. Now every time I read the word spear I'm going to go down a rabbit hole.

Thanks @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. I went back to Secret History and it certainly does suggest that Kelsier first heard the Survive Command long before he would have come into contact with a Dawnshard: So that definitely throws a wrinkle in any theory about Kelsier being connected to a potential Survive Dawnshard. I'm not so wedded to the theory (and am too distracted by anticipation for ROW) to mount a vigorous defense of the theory. But I suppose I'd throw out the possibility that, just as it seems Chiri Chiri and the mandras may have led Rysn to the mural, something could have, even back in the Pits, been trying to point Kelsier in the right direction.

Regarding the roar, is it possible that the luckspren somehow amplified/strengthened Chiri Chiri’s roar? We see a number of them in the scene. And we learned that they leant Rock strength to wield the Bow of Hours. They similarly aided Rysn and Cord when they were swimming down to the entrance to the caverns.

Beware, Wax & Wayne (particularly Bands of Mourning) spoilers below. As I reread the passage where Rysn interacts with the mural/Dawnshard, I couldn't shake the sense that we'd read about something similar before. Near the beginning of Bands of Mourning, we learn that a kandra named ReLuur had been searching for the mythical bands and returned to Elendel with a number of pictures documenting his search. Among the images were the following: A mural depicting a room with a central dais. On the dais is a pedestal, and set upon the pedestal was a pair of bracers made of delicate, curling metal, shaped in spirals (a depiction of what they thought were the Bands of Mourning) A picture of a large metal plate set into a wall and inscribed with a strange script. Neither Wax nor any of the kandra present recognize the script Another shot of the strange language A picture of a statue that resembled the Lord Ruler, bearing a long spear Another shot of the mural, more detailed, which depicted bracers with many different metals twining together Another image, of a different mural, depicting a man standing atop a peak, hands raised above him and a glowing spear hovering there, just beyond his touch. A corpse slumped at his feet. The face of the man in the mosaic had eyes upturned and lips parted as if in awe at what he held. He wore the bracers on his arms. We learn toward the end of the book that the pictures were taken at the Sovereign's Temple. Wax sees the same murals and the statue. (There's no mention in the later scene of whether the metal plate is also present, but it seems a fairly safe assumption). What's more we learn some new information about the pedestal in the temple - specifically that it features, prominently, the colors red and gold. The temple also features a number of booby traps and decoys. We learn that the real Bands of Mourning are not the bracers but a spearhead hidden in the statute's spear. And it is at least heavily implied that the mural depicting a person is likely Kelsier, and not the Lord Ruler. So if you're playing Dawnshard connections bingo we've got: fancy murals located in hard-to-reach places featuring the colors red and gold; protected by decoys and booby traps; featuring strange languages not recognized by our main characters; hidden powerful magic objects; and murals that are associated with characters who have heard commands in their minds (CHANGE for Rysn, and SURVIVE for Kelsier) Could be nothing. But it's Brandon so it could also be something. Is this perhaps evidence that our old pal Kel has maybe been involved with a Dawnshard at some point as well? Lastly, not sure how this fits in, if at all, but there was another prominent shout-out to the red/gold color scheme back in Alloy of Law. Here's the scene in the epilogue when Miles is executed: Anyway, just wanted to put this out there because it seems like a significant number of similarities.

This has me thinking about the old knight waiting with the grail at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Just waiting for millennia for the person who’s supposed to relieve him.

When I got to the part near the end of Dawnshard where Nikli is monologuing about the Sleepless efforts to keep people away from Akinah, I was reminded of the reference to Akinah we'd seen in the Oathbringer epigraphs from the Urithiru Gem Archives. This was recorded by a Willshaper in an amethyst: And now, here's what Nikli says to Rysn about maps in Akinah: So what do we think about the old Willshaper? Did they just hear some of the fake rumors and take the bait? If so, did they ever make it to Akinah? Another possibility is that the Willshaper was in league with the Sleepless in spreading the rumors. Which seems possible but not likely. Least likely -- but fun to think about -- was the Willshaper actually a horde of Sleepless disguised as a Knight Radiant? This one seems unlikely to me given Urithiru's protections, the presence of some fairly knowledgeable KR and the fact that the older Sleepless hordes are said to have been unable to realistically imitate humans.

I like this interpretation. Seems right to me.

Wasn’t the set also associated with the colors red and gold?