mdross81

Yes, assuming they eventually emerge from their coma. Good point, though I guess it always seemed to me like that order handles things a bit differently.

Seeing a lot of folks mention Radiants reaching a certain Ideal. Do we know whether they can still continue to progress with their bonds? Who’s going to accept the sworn Ideals? (and yes, I know this is just supposed to be minor stuff, just genuinely curious)

Didn’t want to put the name in the title since it’s arguably a mild spoiler. But it seems pretty clear that Elodi, the singer Dalinar sees Jezrien speaking to in a vision — trying to avert conflict between the humans and singers — is none other than our old friend El. I caught a couple of interesting little thematic bits that I thought I’d share. First, in chapter 55 of WaT: I like the underlined passage because we know eventually El will come to be impressed by, and even protective of, humans. So it’s interesting to see what he thought of them early on - likening them to children. The other line from that chapter that jumped out to me was this one: Love the sly reference here to him trying to drown out (silence) Odium’s voice, given that later, as a Fused, he’ll earn the title of Vyre: He Who Quiets. Sadly, Elodi and Jezrien’s friendship was destined for tragedy. From chapter 62: Sad bookends. Jezrien is responsible for El’s first death, and El, in turn, delivers Jezrien’s final death.

This feels like the right thread to drop this. I love these little moments when Brandon is so obviously winking at us but we just don’t know it yet. Kal talking to Skar in chapter 9 of WaT Indeed, Kal will Return.

Glad you made this thread because ironically enough your post on the reviews thread where you mentioned you didn’t like this aspect of WaT was the first thing I after adding a post saying I liked this element. But let me be clear, I agree with you in hoping that Brandon doesn’t go down this road with all (or really any other) Shards. I like the idea of Honor changing precisely because it’s weird and novel to have the bulk of a Shard’s power go without a vessel for so long. And I think it’s possible that beyond the fact that Honor, like all Shards, is flawed because it’s not balanced by the rest of the divine aspects, here Honor has already warped and changed from its original intent. (At least that’s my read on the whole deal with the ancient spren of the Wind being supplanted by the storm). I think as long as Honor is an exception to immutability due to the weird circumstances, I’m on board for a story about the Shard itself growing and changing.

From the context I took it to just be pieces of Honor’s power that split off.

I wonder if maybe it’s connected to that small piece of Honor’s power that split off just before Taravangian took it up in WaT chapter 143: Perhaps one of those pieces made its way to Syl? Guessing another of the pieces went to forming Kal’s new Honorblade.

I don’t recall the book saying that Odium’s pool was in Shinovar, just that after taking up the power Ishar used it to Connect to Shinovar. From chapter 119: So Mishram found the pool under the Shattered Plains and Ishar visited that pool to take some of its power.

As I continue to think about this book, one thing that impresses me is the way Brandon set up the circumstances under which there can be a move away from immutable Shardic intent. One thing that’s been pretty consistent about the Shards is the idea that they are really locked into their intents, which over time increasingly constrains and puts pressure on their Vessels. And we still have that going on, with Honor already starting to limit Taravangian in various ways that clearly annoy him. But now we also have the possibility of Honor’s power itself growing and changing, which is new and exciting. I really hope we get some POV’s of Honor’s power at some point (as opposed to just internal monologue from the vessel telling us what the power wants).

Phew. That was quite the journey. Overall thoughts: it was an acceptable ending to the first arc. Somewhere in there - with all of the thematic elements and character choices about how walking away from power can be the honorable thing to do - is a great book. What we got felt rushed and pulled in too many directions. It just lacked the tightness and focus of the best of Stormlight (WoR, WoK, and OB in that order for me). Good Kal’s arc and ending in general, though I really hoped we’d get one last classic Kal fight scene that gives me chills; really thought we were going to get one with him fueled by the Wind (I guess we may get more later) Adolin (somewhat surprisingly) - didn’t necessarily care for the multiple fake outs that he died, but I often found myself really overcome with emotion during his big moments in a way that I haven’t before. Everything he’s doing with the unoathed is really cool and I can’t wait to see where it goes Taravangian - appropriately chilling Dalinar finding a third option and having the courage to go through with it; though as with many others I’m not sure I fully understand his plan and why it’s so brilliant Rlainarin Sigzil - felt a little siloed off by himself and it was constantly heartbreaking knowing what was to come, but I liked his growth in confidence TANAVAST visions - honestly did not see it coming that the power would reject him Szeth flashbacks were generally good, but I gotta echo other peoples’ gripes about his present day story being essentially that of a Pokémon trainer going from gym to gym Liked what we got but wish it had been more: Ba-Ado-Mishram - especially like the twist that the tones of Roshar had chosen and aligned to her (I had assumed it was the other way around and that BAM had co-opted the tones) El Venli, Leshwi etc… Lift & Vasher Taln Jasnah Not my favorite Gavinor as champion Shallan - I generally love her, but I don’t know. It all just felt like stuff she’s already done. Part of me wonders if I would have liked her arc more if we hadn’t already figured out the Chana Davar stuff Ishar - his whole deal just seemed messy and confusing; can’t root for him but he didn’t feel like as serious a threat here as he did in RoW - we’re just dropping the whole spren horror show experiments thing? Unmade - we basically learned nothing new about them - even Dai-Gonarthis which apparently … did things? … I really wanted more Hate to say it but … Wit - he just farted around cosplaying with Lift for 7 days while the cosmere-threatening cataclysmic event he’s been trying to forestall played out? Like I said, all in all pretty good, but I can’t help feeling like with a little more time and revision it could have been much better.

What do we think would have happened if the anti-light arrow struck one of Shallan’s Stormlight illusions? My guess is it would just pass through unless Shallan intentionally made the illusions tangible (as we’ve now seen she can do). But assuming for the sake of argument that the arrowhead is made of Raysium and that Shallan did make the illusions tangible … kaboom?

Interesting theory @Child of Hodor The scenario you outline reminds me of that one episode of The Good Place where they literally game out the Trolley problem.

I had the same thought, that maybe they’re all spies/agents for some other group. Can’t quite put my finger on why. Maybe just the general sense of looming dread among the various members of Team Dalinar in these chapters.

Fairly minor point, but didn’t it feel like we got a higher-than-average number of newly-named minor characters? Pabolon - Dalinar’s door guard Hendit - of the Cobalt Guard (“A man with discretion to match his general poise.”) who comes to get Jasnah Hakindar - Shallan and Adolin’s room steward (love that Adolin’s room steward is a man who knows his soaps) Kelen - described as the Windrunner squire who had “come to fetch Dalinar” which is weird because I thought that earlier the squire had been called Pabolon? (Edit - nevermind, I misread. Pabolon was a door guard, not the WR squire who came to get Dalinar) Mararin - Gavinor’s nursemaid

This is a really intriguing idea. If true it’d be cool to see different compasses on different Shardworlds given the variety of technological development and materials available.

I suspect it is the actual location where Honor was splintered. And I’m just going to drop here my thinking that the Current might be related to the “unseen winds” referenced several times in the earlier books. Without rehashing my whole earlier post about this (link below), I’ve theorized that the lines about unseen/unfelt winds are evidence of waves of Honor’s power emanating from the Spiritual Realm (I called them Spiritual winds in my post, building on the line about “the winds that men must feel”, but Current would work too). And at various times Kaladin, by acting honorably, attunes his heart to Honor’s power (perhaps to the rhythm/tone of the “Grand Knell” given that a knell is a term for the ringing of a bell) and is then aided by the wind. Notable examples of this include the Battle of the Tower (WoK 68): Also when Kal helps Adolin in the duel in WoR chapter 57: Wondering if maybe these moments involve Kaladin accessing the Current from the Grand Knell. Full theory is here if interested:

Count me among those coming around to the idea that Jasnah is the author. She’s one of only a few characters who is both a historian and a philosopher. She, like the author, is cosmere-aware enough to be able to talk about Shard vessels. And she’s likely to be one of the first people to know about the change in Odium’s vessel given her relationship with Hoid and his eventual realization that he hadn’t been speaking with Rayse in the RoW epilogue. As others have mentioned, the idea that there were signs throughout her life that she was being watched, fits with the mysterious childhood illness. Also, the idea that the Heralds vanishing deprives the author of sources fits with Jasnah’s work trying to learn from Taln and Ash. But beyond all of that, the tone just feels like Jasnah to me. The desire to collect information from firsthand sources. The questioning of whether what the Wind said about regaining her voice was actually accurate. It all just points to her

Interesting questions posed here. I think perhaps a partial answer is that it wasn’t merely stabbing Jezrien with a Raysium dagger that interrupted the return-to-Braize mechanic of the Oathpact. Rather, it seems to have been the trapping of his soul in the gemstone that caused it. This is assuming that Kalak’s explanation in the epigraphs from Part 4 of RoW is correct. From the chapter 92 epigraph: And according to Raboniel, Odium’s forces didn’t know about the possibility of trapping a Herald’s soul like this until BAM was captured. From RoW chapter 84: And as you note, for the 4500 years after the abandonment of the Oathpact, Odium’s forces were stuck on Braize. A little bit after the quote above, Raboniel also notes that “Raysium is exceptionally difficult to obtain.” All of that said, I get your broader point that, with access to Shardic levels of knowledge it seems like Odium could have figured this out sooner.

Yeah, I was watching the stream. That’s a nice WoB via avoidance you got there @LewsTherinTelescope I was even hanging around in Discord last night after the stream and saw you mention you’d seen something about this excerpt in the forums. But I had totally forgotten that I had even written this post. Thanks for the shout out though.

See, I think maybe it’s evidence of Autonomy on both worlds. I think maybe with Taln holding out for so long Rayse got desperate and maybe sought, or at the very least accepted, some help with his situation. So Axindweth may have been recruited by Trell/the Set but working on Odium’s behalf as well.

I'm willing to bet the Set may have been involved even earlier than this, but we get a couple of hints as to the timeframes for when Edwarn and Miles first got involved. Here's Miles from AoL chapter 17 (which takes place in Scadrian year 341): Can't say for certain that he fell under Trell's influence at the same time, but supposing he did that would put it in 331. That's around the same time that Edwarn went into hermit mode for a decade. Here's Wax confronting Mr. Suit in the AoL Epilogue: That faked death occurred in 340, so going back a decade gives us the Scadrian year 330. So that's 10-11 Scadrian years ago. Converting between Scadrian's Earth-like days and years to Roshar's 20-hour days and 500-day years, that would be between around 8.7 and 9.6 Rosharan years. I believe that Brandon has said that all of MB Era 2 takes place in the 10-15 year time gap between the front and back half of SA. Assuming that the contest of champions (which is slated to occur around mid 1175 on Roshar) is roughly the end of the front half, then Miles began to plan the train robbery and Edwarn went hermitlike around late 1165 to late 1166 on Roshar. That's somewhat intriguing because a number of big things happen on Roshar around that same timeframe: Shallan starting to bond Testment, Szeth being named Truthless, first contact between the listeners and the Alethi, and Axindweth giving Ulim to Venli.

Not much to go on, I’m afraid. Here’s the passage:

Phendorana. I know we don’t get a lot of her. But Teft is my boy. And she’s got this super kind - yet stern - matronly vibe that I just dig. Second place is a tie between Shalllan and Adolin.

Thanks as always for the shout out @LewsTherinTelescope. Not sure if your response to my post was the first time you explained your take on the etymology of BAM, but I know you mentioned it there. And, more germane to @Mzuka’s theory, you even speculated in that thread that BAM may have been like the Sibling once:

Taravangian definitely created the Diagram after Gavilar died. Cultivation tells Dalinar when he visits that it’s the first time in centuries she has come herself to personally speak with a human. So Taravangian’s visit had to be after Dalinar’s (which was after Gavilar died) because it was only with Cultivation’s boon that Taravangian was able to create the Diagram. So the Diagram could not have sent agents to speak with a former bearer during the time when Gavilar held his meetings (only one of which was attended by Nale, I believe).