mdross81

Definitely seems possible that some were recorded pre- and others post-capture of BAM. I imagine at this point pretty much all questions related to Recreance/BAM will be RAFO’d given that book 5 will (hopefully) have answers. One thing I’ve wondered, though, is whether Brandon might answer something about the duration of the period of time over which the gems in the archive we’re recorded. One quibble: I don’t think BAM was necessarily “knocked out” by the capture of BAM, as they seem to be able to tell Navani about experiences afterward (being unable to hear the tones/rhythms and therefore unable to produce Towerlight). Seems more likely to me that the Sibling’s slumber began with the death of Honor. That’s an interesting point I hadn’t previously considered about how they would have carried out the evacuation without the Oathgates. Although it seems like travel between Oathgates was still possible right? It was the transitioning in and out of Shadesmar that was forbidden I thought: Which, if true, raises the question: why did the Sibling specifically forbid access to Shadesmar? Maybe just to keep the humans from seeking out any remaining Radiant spren? To hide the existence of deadeyes? To prevent off-world travel?

Feels likely that Odium, through the Unmade tries to encourage/enflame certain emotions when people open themselves up to it. And I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the rhythms to do it. WoB: Also, there are a number of times where we see singers who have taken on forms of power seemingly being manipulated through the rhythms. (Toot of own horn disclaimer re the topic below)

Great catch @hungryMishim I found the excerpts. Jasnah - RoW 64 Kaladin - RoW 80 And Shallan in OB 68: At first I thought maybe Hoid was just doing the equivalent of saying, "Here, have a Snickers..." We know that Hoid knows where he needs to be, but often not why. Maybe he just urges people to eat in case someone important is hangry and at risk of making poor decisions. But there might be something more to it. In particular, with the Kal and Jasnah ones, Hoid has bonded a cryptic by that point and become a Lightweaver. Here's something we're told about Lightweavers in the in-world Words of Radiance: That seems to fit particularly well with the Kaladin scene since we know that the food there isn't even real, but rather is taking place in a vision.

LOVE this description.

This is an interesting idea, and may address the question I posed in my last reply: what is the function of the singers in this system? For Roshar to work as a Realmic Balancer, you need something that can pull the spren through. Maybe not all spren, but for certain kinds, you need sapient minds/emotions to attract them. So, Adonalsium creates the singers, whose minds are close to the spren's realm, maybe? Along these lines, I'll note that we hear a number of times throughout the books that the singers feel they are better able to control their emotions because they are attuned to the rhythms. Whereas with humans, Rayse notes in OB 57: So when designing the system Adonalsium opts for the singers as a safer choice than humans to pull through emotionspren.

I think this is what you’re looking for, from BoM chapter 29:

Thanks @Serack I’m a fan of your theory as well. It certainly fits with the idea that Roshar is extra-sticky. One thing I still haven’t figured out how to fit into a theory is the purpose of the singers as an “essential part of the Rosharan system”as Brandon said. Seems like it’s probably related to ability to hear the tones/rhythms, and the phenomenon of the spren bleeding through to the physical realm (which I think is unique to Roshar). But I can’t figure out how that fits into some purpose that Adolnalsium had.

From what we know of bonded spren, they are pretty much fully in the physical realm even when not manifested as a sword. So the question is more whether it would have made a difference if - say, for a Windrunner - they broke their oath while their spren was just flitting around as an honospren as opposed to them being manifested as a Shardblade. I feel like it might not have made a difference and when the Knight forsook their oath, a dead Blade would have dropped anyway. And to the OP @nehalem, we should hopefully get answers to the connection between these three events in the fifth book. I’m not sure your theorizing fully takes into account the sprens’ role in the Recreance. I’m assuming you’ve finished RoW, but spoilering just in case: There are a number of different threads where folks have tried to figure out the sequence of events. To me, the biggest question is who the Radiants were fighting just before events depicted in the Feverstone Keep vision. It seems like they made the decision to abandon Urithiru after the imprisonment of BAM, which had caused the Tower’s functions to fail. But if that’s the case, then the singers would have been lobotomized and would not be the opposing force that the Radiants were fighting.

Just popping back by this topic to add in another moment I came across where it feels like these unseen winds show up during a pivotal scene, possibly even subtly nudging characters who are sufficiently attuned to Honor in the right direction. It's in OB 118 when Jasnah stops herself from killing Renarin: As mentioned up top in my original post, we know those unseen winds were blowing around this time as part of what was about to happen with Dalinar. But it's interesting to see the change happen here in terms of what Jasnah, Renarin, and Ivory think is right. The scene begins with Jasnah reluctantly resigned to killing her cousin because she thinks it's "right." But then she freezes and the "wind" blows through the temple carrying the gloryspren, and she changes her mind. Part of me wonders if this is even actual wind, or just currents from the Spiritual Realm that she is able to feel because she's acting honorably. To quote the Stormfather, this may be Jasnah experiencing "the winds that men must feel," and Jasnah can feel them because "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men." Even Ivory is impacted, suddenly realizing that, even though it's not what makes sense, it's right. Renarin to gets some reassurance that he's been doing the right thing with Glys too and is pushed toward toward the realization that his visions can be wrong; that they can change things. My original post really focused mainly on times where the winds seem to aid Kaladin, but I'm sure there are other key turning-point moments like this where a character is making a choice, and there's a conspicuous mention of the wind or a breeze blowing. Sometimes, it even goes the other way, with windspren being scared away from Odious behavior, as in WoR I-11, just before Eshonai, bearing stormform, carries out her coup: Lastly, this brings me around to the thought that sunlight on Roshar may be associated in some way with Odium. Here we have it raining down on Eshonai. Then there's this line from Szeth atop Urithiru in WoR I-10: There's also this bit from Edgedancer chapter 3 about wearing a shiqua to cover up before "Nun-Raylisi": Perhaps others have previously picked up on this association between Odium and the sun, but I've only just started to notice it.

This is a pretty logical explanation that I could totally see being correct. Your idea also highlights the differences between how Ishar/Honor set up transportation between Braize and Roshar in the Oathpact (basically automatic upon certain conditions: death = soul returned to Braize; break from torture = return to Roshar with a battle-ready body) and how Odium set things up with the Fused (at least pre-Everstorm), where it's fairly heavily implied that Odium was personally involved in returning each Fused. Very on brand for Honor to have rigid, fixed approach that maybe lacks the flexibility one might want to have to adjust to changing circumstances. And similarly on brand for Odium to have his mechanism give him all the control. Note how, even though the Everstorm was necessary to work around Taln, Rasye didn't necessarily seem happy about the fact that he could no longer control the mechanism by which the Fused Returned.

Ask and ye shall receive. Here's my list of characters who are described as being short, broken down by category (I had most of these collected in one place already from going on a previous worldhopper hunt) I've provided brief descriptions of more minor characters. And where there were other specific-sounding details about the character's appearance, I've included those. I've also highlighted a couple that I think are particularly likely to be worldhoppers Main characters: Szeth and Taravangian Known Worldhoppers Iyatil Felt Sixteen Riino the short, white-robed ardent who spoke with Dalinar, Hatham, and Au-nak at a feast in WoK 54 (here's the WoB confirming him as a worldhopper) Named Characters Thaylens Captain Tozbek Queen Fen Yokska Captain Drlwan (sharp nose and unusually blonde hair, DS 4) Vrandl (Thaylen artifabrian, RoW 42) Kaladin’s orbit: Amaram’s Army: Toorim (squadmate killed by Helaran), Gor (seen talking with Varth, the squadleader who sent Tien to die, RoW 108), Tukks Bridge Four/Windrunners: Skar, Sigzil, Teft, Dabbid, Lyn Hearthstone: Lirin, Torav (farmer, OB 6), Aric (guard, OB 6) Kholinar wall guard: Beard Herdazians Lopen Huio Palona the Mink Navani’s orbit Makal (short, plump woman who carried a satchel with painting supplies for Navani, WoK 69) Maratham (Kholinar palace steward, RoW prologue) Talnah (engineer, RoW 16) Kristir (scholar, RoW 37) Dalinar’s orbit Tadat (short bald, bearded ardent wearing thick blue-gray layered robes from which his hands barely extended, WoK 28) Bashin Havarah (bridgelord w/Herdazian blood, WoK 26) Hathan (master-servant, Dalinar’s room steward in flashback, OB 36) Assorted Alethi Lighteyes Highprince Aladar May Aladar Elit Ruthar Ialai Sadeas Tanalan (the younger) Shallan’s orbit Malise Gevelmar Gaz Ishnah Misc. Urithiru Godeke the Edgedancer Ristina (short Alethi woman, seen marking a ledger at the Oathgate, OB 46) Master Liganor (owns the pottery shop where Adin’s father works, RoW I-11) Alalan (Adin’s father, RoW I-11) Miscellaneous (Rest of Roshar) Puuli (lighthouse keeper, OB I-1) Deeli (courted Adolin, WoK 12) Reshi King Ral-na (DS 3) Omal (short Azish general, RoW 50) Unnamed Characters Coughing slave in the cart with Kaladin (WoK 1) Porter who transports Shallan up to the Conclave in Kharbranth (WoK 3) Apothecary Kaladin tries to buy medical supplies from in the warcamps (WoK 17) Vaulter/Scout on the Shattered Plains: short and compact with thick forearms (WoR 68) Ancient, wizened ardent swordmaster in Kholinar who wrapped his takama three times (OB 16) Bouncer at All’s Alley in Urithiru: short and squat, with a scar running up his cheek, across his forehead, and onto his scalp (OB 18) Victim of one of the murders Shallan investigates: a short fellow with long, drooping mustaches (OB 29) Tavern barkeep when Ishnah is teaching surveillance to Shallan’s crew: an older man, short enough that he stands on boxes when he fills orders (OB 44) One of the wrestlers in the bout Hav and Bashin wager on in Dalinar flashback: simply described as shorter than the other (OB 49) Shorter man among the Azish viziers and scions when Dalinar visits Azimir (OB 65) Innkeeper who puts up with Wit in Kholinar: short, heavyset Alethi man with a paunch so thick he looked like a big chull egg (OB 68) Azish vizier attending council of the monarchs: a short man with a very large hat (OB 111) Diagram member who wore Teft’s uniform while stealing Jezrien’s Honorblade: short Alethi man (OB I-14) Water-bearer in the Radiant infirmary in Urithiru: a short man with far too much hair on his body and a shash glyph painted on his forehead (RoW 74)

That’s an interesting point, that even though Truthless he was still willing to use his grandfather’s name instead of just Szeth, Truthless of Shinovar. Here’s what he says about why he doesn’t use his father’s name: But it was okay to sully his grandfather’s name? Add it to the list of things we don’t understand yet about Shin culture in general and Szeth’s past in particular.

It already is:

Other: Nale’s nuts

Agreed. I wouldn’t be surprised if, like Kaladin crouching in a hollow in the SP made him remember a similar hollow from the scene of Tien’s death, Szeth will find himself in a situation that takes him back to the events leading to him being named Truthless. Yeah, this feels like a fairly likely post-Truthless flashback possibility, especially if Liss turns out to be Vedel or Chana. I think it’s hinted that the Shin knew that the Heralds lied. Here’s Szeth in RoW 111:

Thanks for humoring me. I think you’re onto something in thinking that the natures of Herald and Fused immortality may be different in some significant way.

Fair enough. But for the moment, trust that Raboniel knows what she’s talking about and she is accurate. The only reason why the Fused would survive is because Odium is whole, right?

Pardon the necro of my old post, but I wanted to pose a couple of questions that are directly related. In his journal, Kalak says that: Kalak also says: He seems to suggest two different factors that played a role in Jezrien being left without a valid connection to the Spiritual Realm. 1: Honor being Splintered; and 2: the Oathpact severed. But he says that BAM would remain indefinitely imprisoned. As others have pointed out earlier in this thread, an Unmade, as a spren essentially made of Investiture is a different type of being than a cognitive shadow, and I get why BAM would retain a connection to the Spiritual. Plus spren don’t really die except for anti-Light. But what about a Fused? At another point in RoW, Raboniel seems to suggest that a Fused would also be trapped indefinitely if captured in a gem: A Fused trapped in a gem would, like Jezrien lack a valid connection to the Physical Realm. But I take it from Raboniel’s statement would retain a sufficient connection to the Spiritual. Is this simply because Odium remains whole but Honor was splintered? Or to put it another way, if Honor had still been whole when Jezrien was captured, would he have remained trapped instead of fading? Alternatively, considering the other factor Kalak mentions, the severing of the Oathpact, suppose a situation where Honor is still splintered but Jezrien was rescued or escaped from the gem shortly after being captured. Setting aside for now the issue of how he would get a body, would his connection to the Oathpact still be severed? In other words, did something about either the Raysium dagger or the state of being entrapped in a gem irrevocably sever his connection to the Oathpact?

The theory is pretty much in the title. Based on a number of different pieces of evidence, I think that Adonalisum may have created Roshar to serve as a laboratory for creation/experimentation. A place where he used his divine voice (we learn in RoW that Lights respond to tones/rhythms because they are reminiscent of the voices of gods) to command the fundamental forces of creation and existence. Below, I've pulled together a bunch of WoBs and quotes from the books below that serve as background and support, and then I try to pull it all together. BACKGROUND - WOBS The Rosharan System was created by Adonalsium for a specific purpose: And it wasn't just the overall system. The continent of Roshar was specifically grown by Adonalsium too: Non-sapient spren, the singers, and highstorms all predate the Shattering and were part of Adonalisum's intentional design. One key aspect of the design of Roshar is the rhythms, which pervade the cosmere but manifest in a specific way on Roshar: BACKGROUND - QUOTES FROM THE BOOKS Eshonai, in RoW 116, concludes that Roshar IS the rhtyhms: Next, we have Raboniel and Navani in RoW 76, discussing the relationship between Lights and sound: Later, while trying to create anti-Light, Navani muses further on the nature of sounds, lights, and divinity in the epigraphs for chapters 70, 71: So Lights (Investiture) can be manipulated via sound. You know what else is Investiture? Spren. Spren are sentient pieces of the same powers that are referred to as the Surges, the innate forces by which all life and reality are connected. Here's Shallan discussing spren with Jasnah in WoR 3: Here's Syl in WoR 9: Here's the Sibling in RoW 28: PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER So if tones/rhythms can manipulate Investiture/spren/Surges and Roshar was crafted by Adonalsium in such a way that the rhythms manifest in a specific and unique way (Roshar IS the rhythms), it starts to look like Roshar was essentially some kind of laboratory/sound studio for Adonalsium. A place where he spoke as a divinity and literally command the fundamental forces/powers of creation and existence. Perhaps it even functioned as his broadcasting base, a place from which he issued commands out to the wider cosmere, exerting influence and shaping worlds. Going even a step further, who's to say it wasn't the exercise of these powers that led the 16 original Vessels to shatter Adonalsium? As a responsible divinity, it seems that pre-Shattering Adonalsium was careful to place limitations on the power to manipulate Surges. See, for example, this WoB: But post-Shattering, Roshar must have looked pretty attractive to the Shards as they looked around for a place to settle down. That's one of the things I really like about this theory. It fits nicely with the Shards that did make their way to Roshar post Shattering. Honor being all about promises (which Syl and the Sibling equate with fundamental forces/laws of nature), it makes sense that there would be a lot of Investiture assigned to that Shard on Roshar. I can also imagine Honor being particularly concerned with safeguarding a planet with such a unique ability to command fundamental forces. If Roshar was a laboratory for experimentation that would also fit with there being a good chunk of Investiture assigned to Cultivation, given that she's about being about creation and growth. And Odium, being associated with that jealous part of divinity that more than anything wants its commands to be obeyed, would be drawn there as well. Indeed, Rayse seemed to think that all of the Shards would eventually try to get in on that sweet Surgebinding action from Roshar, particularly now that the bounds Honor placed on the Surges have fallen away. This is from RoW 112: That's it. That's the theory. In my mind it makes sense. But I concede that in same places I may have too simply conflated Investiture, spren, and Surges. Could be a crazy display on the wall in which I make unsupported connections between things or assume causation where there isn't any. But I think there's something here. Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it this far. As always I'm interested to hear what others think. Edit: D’oh! Almost forgot my favorite part of the sound studio idea. Ba-Ado-Mishram as the mixing board.

Thanks @Jofwu Since putting together my initial list and reading the responses, I’ve come around to this point of view as well. That the flashbacks will largely be from his youth in Shinovar through being named Truthless. That would mirror Kal pretty nicely and they’ll be traveling together. (It’s pretty much the same for Shallan and - to a lesser extent - Venli/Eshonai too; childhood through to the event that led them to leave their home) Most of my post-Truthless suggestions are just kinda fun fan-service type stuff. Like I think it’d be funny to see Szeth kicking around Yeddaw with NB for a couple of weeks after Nale left him there. But we probably wouldn’t learn anything from it, and the tone may not be right for what I assume will be a fairly serious book. The post-Truthless ones from my list that I think are better possibilities are traveling with Vstim as a newly-named Truthless, and maybe a short one with the assassination that I think was in Rall Elorim, where Kal first saw him during the storm riding dream. I had forgotten about him visiting Urithiru early on. That sounds pretty likely as well.

Yeah, @Stormgate is right on this one. Chapter 75 of WoR, which is when Shallan and Kal return from the chasms, is literally titled “True Glory.”

This makes a lot of sense. And potentially fits very well with a present-day climax involving Szeth and Kal in Shinovar, trying to help Ishar.

That’s certainly possible, and I kinda hope you’re right (even though it wipes out half my list) because it means lots of new stuff we don’t already know anything about.

On the topic of Endowment creating the humans on Nalthis, I think this is the WoB that confirms: Questioner Is there like a Cosmere-significant reason why, on Scadrial, the Investiture is hereditary, but that that doesn't really seem to be the case on any of the other worlds? Brandon Sanderson Yes there is, but it has to do more with the fact that on Scadrial, human beings were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. And most of the Cosmere worlds you've seen don't have that same sort of aspect. It is the case on Nalthis. It's not the case on Roshar, it's not the case on Taldain, it's not the case on Sel. And so because of that instance, that's how I'm kind of working, that changed the way people interact with magic directly. But there is some wiggle room there for me. But that's your answer, that's the actual... there's.. I'm not hiding anything there, there is wiggle room. What I'm saying is don't extrapolate that that has to happen every time that the Shards were directly involved in the creation... JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) Couple that with the AU essay on Scadrial:

Yeah, especially since Nale just left him there for a few weeks. Must have been some real quality get to know you time with Nightblood.