mdross81

Thanks. Hadn’t seen this one. If WB is indeed closer in time to WoK than MB era 1, and this WoB remains true, then we can narrow the events of WB to between 1020 and 1120 (assuming 20 years per generation and 2 generations).

You're right. Brandon has been consistent in WoBs that MB Era 1 takes place before Warbreaker. I caught something during my current OB reread that I guess gives us some outer bounds on when Warbreaker takes place relative to events on Roshar. We know that Adolin trained with Zahel in his youth. But Adolin, Evi and Renarin were out on campaign with Dalinar from 1155-1163. Then in OB 66, which takes place in 1163, we're told: So the earliest Adolin could have trained with Zahel is some time in 1163. That also sort of functions as roughly the latest point in time at which Zahel could have arrived on Roshar. And since WB happens between MB era 1 and WoK, that places the events of WB sometime between 877 (which I explain above is roughly when HoA concludes) and 1163. Frankly 1163 is probably way too late because there needs to be time for Vasher to have had whatever adventures he had with Nightblood post-WB, including time to piss off Vivenna, get to Roshar, figure out how to sustain himself using Stormlight, and become an ardent swordmaster. So we can definitely shave a few years off, but without knowing more concretely, we can use 1160 as an outer bound. So to use nice round numbers, the events of WB take place sometime roughly between the Rosharan years 880 and 1160. I found an older thread where someone was putting together a cosmere timeline and claimed to have seen a WoB at some point that said that WB was closer in time to WoK than it was to MB Era 1. I haven't been able to find this WoB, but if true, that would shrink the window for WB to between 1,020 and 1160. The cool thing about narrowing this down is that it also gives us ranges for the creation of Nightblood and Vasher's previous travels to Roshar. We know that Vasher and Shashara based Nightblood off of Shardblades, and that Nightblood was created around the time of the Manywar. So their earlier travels to Roshar must have occurred prior to the Manywar, which occurred roughly 300 Nalthian years before the events of WB. Since we're still not sure the duration of a Nalthian year relative to a Rosharan one, we have to guesstimate. But conservatively assuming that 300 Nalthian years convert to somewhere between 250-350 Rosharan years, then we can place the Manywar and Nightblood's creation somewhere between 530-910 (or 670-910 if WB is indeed closer in time to WoK than it is to MB Era 1). We also know from WB that Vo, the first Returned, was Returned roughly 300 Nalthian years prior to the Manywar. So using the same conservative conversion range, the earliest Vo could have Returned was the Rosharan year 180 (or 320 if WB is closer in time to WoK than MB Era 1). Since Vasher must have been Returned later than that date, that gives us a not-super-narrow range of 180-910 for Vasher's previous visit to Roshar. (If anyone knows whether we have a sense of how long after Vasher Returned Nightblood was created, let me know, as that would narrow things further.) While not very precise, we do at least know that Vasher's earlier visit to Roshar took place well after the False Desolation, the imprisonment of BAM, and the Recreance. Which means that Vasher would likely only have encountered deadeye Shardblades during his visit. That is unless he ended up coming into contact with Nale or another Skybreaker with a living Blade. Just imagine cockier Five-Scholar-era Vasher meeting crazy-ass Nale. That's a scene I want to see.

The name also thematically fits with what some have suggested may be Bavadin’s view that the Shards should remain separate and apart (as opposed to the remake Adonalsium camp).

This … actually could be a possibility. I went back to the section in OB 102 where an ashspren in Shadesmar is explaining the sudden arrival of voidspren: So Derethil was searching for the origin of the Voidbringers. It’s mentioned that he had fought against the Voidbringers and so maybe he had good info on where they come from at the start of a Desolation. And in OB we hear that the voidspren who have recently arrived in Shadesmar appear to be coming from near the area of Tukar/Marat, which is also around where Adolin is viewing the coordinated blinking lifespren. There might be a connection there. Maybe the giant whirlpool surrounded by a ring of islands is a real location and is responsible for the blinking? I don’t think it would be the origin of storms, but it could be related to the point where the Fused arrive at the start of a Desolation.

You’re welcome. Cosmere spoilers are allowed here, but just in case you haven’t read Warbreaker, I’ll hide this next bit.

The first two of these occurred to me as possibilities. Especially BAM, which had me excited. I hadn't considered the 3rd option you suggest here but I really like the idea of an origin for Cultivation's power on Roshar. I don't know why it would be out in the Southern Depths, but then we just know so little about Cultivation and what she's up to, so it could be. The reef idea seems like a fairly likely, if not super exciting, explanation. And it reminds me of this WoB:

@ScadrianTank is correct about where Wax & Wayne fits in with the timeline on Roshar. In terms of when the events of MB Era 1 took place, I think you have to adjust for the fact that years are not quite the same length on Roshar and Scadrial. We know W&W takes place just after SA 5 and that it's roughly 341 years post-Catacendre. Assuming that SA 5 actually ends around the time of the contest of champions (1175) and assuming earth-like years for Scadrial, and converting to the 20 hr days and 500 day years on Roshar, that places the end of MB Era 1 around the year 877 on Roshar. (341 Scadrian years converts to 298.716 Rosharan years) Extrapolating back the 1,024 or so Scadrian years that the Lord Ruler was in power before the events of MB Era 1 (and again converting) and you can place the LR's Ascension around the year -20 on Roshar.

I didn't post it previously and I couldn't find any topics directly discussing this (but I only looked quickly). And yeah, I don't have any particularly solid ideas either. I mean, Adolin is looking toward the Expanse of Vibrance (which I think is confirmed to be Nalthis) - so maybe there's something there with vibrations emanating? Or maybe we'll see some kind of underwater ecosystem where there's a an aquatic species that plays the rhythm to make plants or coral grow and then feeds on the plants or other fauna that's attracted? But that likely wouldn't explain why it only happens in this region.

Interesting theory. Certainly not the wildest speculation I've seen. Seems consistent with Hoid's previous comments.

Was working on a different theory when I came across this brief bit from Adolin's perspective in RoW 75: So when he sees this, he's looking south from Lasting Integrity towards the solid ground that corresponds to the Southern Depths in the Physical Realm. What do we think might be causing the lifespren to blink on and off in a coordinated wave in this area? The only clue I can think of is the scene where we see how Rlain has taught the ardents at Urithiru to drum a specific rhythm to create an organic fabrial. The rhythm seems to draw Stormlight out of the gemstones, infusing the lifespren, which then presumably use the surge of progression to make the plants grow. But what would be causing a similar phenomenon to occur in this region of Shadesmar? Is there something in the ocean in the Physcial Realm (or on the land in the CR) that is making a similar rhythm to interact with the lifespren? And is this truly unique to just this area of Shadesmar? Curious whether others have any ideas on what this could be.

This is a good point and raises a question going forward. Who's left for us to hate heading into book 5? Rayse is gone; Lezian is gone; Venli's well into her redemption arc. With Moash being blinded and potential uncertainty about whether the new Vessel of Odium will keep taking his pain, he may end up harder to hate. We're kinda left with just Taravangian, which makes me think that he will do something terribly awful in Book 5 (I mean worse that what he's done before), probably to Dalinar or Kaladin. Welp.

This might be more of a concern if the SF was talking about possibly being splintered by Odium back when Honor was splintered. But I think when the SF says that he could have been splintered but wasn’t, he’s referring to the time in OB when he was holding Odium back so that Dalinar could talk to Venli in a vision. The SF says this in response to Dalinar asking if he’s ok after the end of that vision when he heard the SF crying and whimpering that Odium was too strong: That reads like a present tense fear to me. So as late as Oathbringer the SF still believes that Odium fears an attack from Cultivation. And I don’t think anything has happened since then that would have caused Cultivation to turn.

This might be more of a concern if the SF was talking about possibly being splintered by Odium back when Honor was splintered. But I think when the SF says that he could have been splintered but wasn’t, he’s referring to the time in OB when he was holding Odium back so that Dalinar could talk to Venli in a vision. The SF says this in response to Dalinar asking if he’s ok after the end of that vision when he heard the SF crying and whimpering that Odium was too strong: That reads like a present tense fear to me. So as late as Oathbringer the SF still believes that Odium fears an attack from Cultivation. And I don’t think anything has happened since then that would have caused Cultivation to turn.

I also thought this seemed odd if, in fact, the Fused helped kill Odium. But if you look at the context of what Raboniel is saying there it seems like it’s possible she means that they don’t know the mechanism used to actually kill him. In other words she might know how Honor ended up in a position where he was vulnerable but just doesn’t fully understand how he was then Splintered.

Here’s hoping they can. I’m never so invested in my own theories that I turn my nose up at contradictory ones so I will check out your post. I’ve been meaning to but saw the length and knew I didn’t have the time. Looking forward to it though.

For a while now, I've been reviewing the books and trying to understand Nale/Ishar's motivations in killing proto-Radiants I feel like I'm close but not quite there on understanding why they thought it possible that non-Skybreaker Radiants swearing Ideals would potentially give an opening for Odium's forces to make the jump to Roshar and start a Desolation. But one thing that has occurred to me is a pretty morbid scene related to the Oathpact that i think must have played out at the end of each Desolation. So first, here's some basics of the Oathpact explained by the Stormfather in OB 38: Ok, so if they die in the fighting, the Herald automatically gets sent back to Braize. And as we learn from Kalak in the Prelude, if they die in the fighting their Honrblade would vanish. Speaking of the Prelude, Kalak explains there that the Heralds always made a plan in advance on when and where they would meet after a battle: Ok, nothing too bad yet. But now consider Leshwi's explanation to Venli in RoW 14 of what the Heralds then had to do to activate the Isolation: So the Heralds had to give themselves to Braize, meaning they had to die. And we know that they would meet up together after the battle was over at a prearranged location. So when they had those meetings and decided that humanity could stand against Odium's forces without their aid, did they then ... kill each other? Commit group suicide together? All so they could go back and be tortured some more? Plus, aren't the Heralds pretty hard to kill? My best guess is that there was something special about the Honorblades that enabled them to kill one another/themselves. It's still an unanswered question how they were able to activate the Isolation without dying this last time. I'm guessing that also had something to do with the Honorblades. Maybe by severing their bonds to their Blades, they were able to activate the Isolation? As for why Nale/Ishar believed that the continued functioning of the Oathpact required them to to prevent Radiant bonds from forming, the most explanation we get comes from Nale in Edgedancer, chapter 9: Nale also offers this vague explanation to Szeth in OB 106: Lastly, I guess we can infer something about how Voidbringers travel between Roshar and Briaze from this exchange between Venli and Nale in RoW 77: Seems like we can infer from this that when a Herald breaks, it causes a bridge to open between Braize and Roshar. Putting this together with the explanation in Edgedancer, it seems that Ishar convinced Nale that if humans began bonding spren again, they would discover the greater power of the oaths, and that swearing those oaths could likewise create a bridge between Braize and Roshar. Why that would be, I don't know. Anyway, back to the mechanics of the Oathpact; what a grim scene this would be. The surviving Heralds meeting up at the end of each Desolation for a murder/suicide pact just so they can go back to Damnation to be tortured. I'm sorry to make y'all think about it, but I can't stop thinking about it now, so you're just going to have to share the burden with me.

Maybe you’re right. I was just thinking it was possible that the start of the dying process happened closer in time to the Recreance; not necessarily long before.

Ok. I had taken those lines as evidence that Honor was going mad, but not necessarily that he was in the process of dying. I have thought that the madness could have been self-inflicted. That Honor had either done something inconsistent with his Shard’s intent or sacrificed to seal Odium away. Ok. I see what you mean. I think I was thrown by you saying “over centuries” because that seemed more specific than the WoB saying it was “protracted.” I’ll grant that the WoB suggests that Honor may have begun the process of dying before the Recreance. Edit: I found a couple of quotes talking about how Honor was dying at the time of the Recreance. RoW 66: And OB 113: Later in 113: But I don’t know that any of these suggest that he had been dying for a long time before the Recreance. Certainly not centuries if he started dying some time between the previous generation and the generation of KR around at the time of the Recreance.

Is there a quote or WoB on this?

I like this. My mind has been fixated recently on just how pervasive the theme of lost memories is in the Stormlight Archive. From Heralds losing their grip due to their immortality; to Shallan actively suppressing her memories; to Cultivation taking away Dalinar’s memories; to an entire race of beings - the singers/listeners - forgetting who they were, it’s just all over the place.

Fair enough. I guess it would make sense for a strike taking advantage of a hole in the soul from a broken oath to happen in the spiritual realm. And the Fused get involved through spiritual mumbo jumbo. Could work.

I don’t follow. The OP never suggested that Honor’s death took place over centuries. Are you saying that you think it did? At any rate, if the broken oath was allowing the imprisonment of BAM and the resulting harm to the singers, as the OP suggested, that would fit with Honor “dying” right around that time. By that I mean the killing blow would have been struck around that time, although as we’ve learned, Shard death is an extended process. Of course, now that I think about it more, there is a problem with @Kranse’s theory. As far as we know, there were not any Fused around on Roshar to have struck at Honor around the time of BAM’s imprisonment. They were all still stuck on Braize because Taln was still holding.

Welcome to the Shard @LiftWillSaveMe And thanks for tooting my horn for me @Honorless I was about to reply with a link to my Warmth coming from a place beyond post. Not that my topic itself shed a lot of light, but there were some good replies as I recall.

Thanks for the interesting questions @Bejardin1250. Here’s my take. The Stormfather tells us in OB 38 that Odium is sealed by the powers of Honor and Cultivation. So I don’t think he’s completely free if Dalinar breaks the contract, because ostensibly Cultivation’s powers would still be holding him (unless it required both of them together to seal him; we just don’t know). But there do some to be limitations that would fall away simply by virtue of Dalinar, the representative of Honor, being in Odium’s power. In OB 57, Odium speaks with Dalinar: And later in the same conversation after Dalinar asks what would be the consequences of him releasing Odium: Presumably the reason he’d do this first is to completely free himself. All of that said, there is this in RoW 112: These passages seems to suggest that Dalinar alone could grant Odium freedom from the Rosharan system. I’ll note that this conversation takes place after Dalinar “Ascends” at the end of OB. So maybe that is the difference. Or maybe, just like the Oathpact, only one of Honor or Cultivation needs to agree to free Odium to make it possible. So where does that leave things? At a bare minimum Odium would be “unshackled” and free to pursue and try to kill Cultivation. But it could be the case that, with Dalinar in his power, Odium would simply be free. In terms of your other questions, my read is that there is one provision of the contract that explicitly requires each side to maintain discipline in their forces: This line about the champions being otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces is the only provision where I think someone other than Dalinar could potentially break the contract. So, Jasnah? Definitely part of Dalinar’s forces and if she harmed Odium’s champ (or, frankly, Dalinar’s champ based on the plain language) that would break the contract. Ditto to anyone that Dalinar explicitly sends to harm either champ. Outside of this provision, I don’t think anyone but Dalinar could break the contract for Team Dalinar. [disregard the spoiler/quote boxes below; I just hit the wrong button and couldn’t figure out how to delete them on my phone]

Cool theory @Kranse. I’ve also thought for a while now that Tanavast likely broke an agreement and thereby put himself at risk. My own theory had been that he and Rayse had agreed to a proxy war between humans and singers and that Tanavast directly intervened in some way that violated the terms. But I like yours better. Your theory has an interesting take on the line about Honor being more obsessed with oaths themselves instead of the meanings behind the oaths. I had always figured that this meant he was overly strict in his view of complying with oaths. But you’re totally right that it could instead mean he was actually being lax and viewing oaths as fulfilled, rather than broken, through technicalities about the wording.