Odium's_Shard

I would suppose that considering that the Allomancers that told Vin that Pewter was the only metal that could be burned while sleeping/unconscious were the same ones who did not know about the presence of the other 7 metals, then there were a few gaps in their knowledge where they were unable to conduct safe experiments due to the presence of the Lord Ruler's Seekers. Maybe more of the things we were told by them are untrue.

That's a cool thought, what if you became a Nicrosil savant. What sort of rise in power would someone experience from that? Maybe enough to kill someone burning Tin if you used a torch!

Hi! I'm back! Someone somewhere might remember me, and I've been away a while on university business, but I'm back to bring in my opinions on the matter because I have quite a set personal understanding of the way things on Roshar and Scadrial work (I'm not so familiar with the systems in Warbreaker and Elantris, still fitting them in). I feel that several things are essential to casting any sort of magic or employing any sort of ability anywhere in the Cosmere. Focus, as we are trying to define, seems like the gateway between Power, Shardic Power, in the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This may be due to the kind of Shard that you are trying to access, and its storage point/type, or the Shardworld you reside in (either the Spiritual location or Physical location). Fuel, whatever you want to call it, something who's energy is taken up in the process, maybe material energy, such as metals and their atomic energy, or mystic energy like Stormlight, presumably to preserve balance between the Physical and Spiritual Realms. Conduit, like an Allomancer, or Soulcaster, or any type of magic user. Most likely to provide both the motivation and the will of the Power to use the gateway provided by the focus, a presence in the Cognitive Realm that facilitates Power transfer and formation. Shard, or Sliver, potentially (such as Atium/Vin/the Storm) to provide the energy and its type and uses, whether determined by Shardworld, user, or Shard, something there must be deploying the energies of Creation remnant from Adonalsium. Using these objects, my personal interpretation of the Foci, as I have stated already, is that it facilitates the movement of certain Power through into the Physical Realm. On Rosher, this might be the gems, or the molecular structure of both the gems and Humans, allowing Kaladin to hold the Stormlight. Presumably on Scadrial, the reason that the metal is consumed is because that is the source of Physical energy at hand that can be swapped for Spiritual energy. Similarly, on Rosher, the Stormlight is held in the flesh or the gem, and its molecular structure facilitates it being swapped for the Spiritual Energy that Kaladin's, or the Windrunner's, Cognitive presence can then interpret into the powers Kaladin and Windrunners and all Knights use. It could be theorised then, if only from these two foci, one definite and one only guessed at, that the Focus is almost always the structure of an object, but that structure determines the object that is the focus. For example, even if the focus for all systems was molecular structure, then its only the structure of certain metals that allow Allomantic power, and only that of certain gems and people to perform Windrunners' powers.

Gosh, it's been a long time! Some of you might even just possibly, slightly, remember me. Firstly, sorry for having been gone so time with relatively little warning, except maybe a sudden excitation of activity where I tried to empty my brain on a page before I left to have somewhat of a legacy. But, even after a long year focusing on my education, I have been brought back here by my re-reading of the WoT series in order to get to Brandon Sanderson's contributions. And the remembrance of what it is to theory craft an excellent narrative based in a living and breathing world in which possible connections aren't just tenuous and coincidental, but major plot features designed from the beginning to subtly bring together innumerable factors, many of which were not around at the time of the conception of the web that would tie it to the rest of the story! Long story short, I remembered what it is to read Sanderson's works and works similar to them, on a vein and on a level with Brandon's writing! I remembered the community that I loved and devoted quite a while of my life to for 6 months, and realised that I wanted to be a part of it again, how much I enjoyed debating and theorising and feeling that I made a contribution in my life to something. TL;DR I remembered that I love these forums, and that you can't have too much of a really good thing no matter how life-sucking. Except drugs. Good to be back! Odium's Shard

I'm so late and so not going to get this series finished by deadline, but I recently acquired a second hand copy of the first book, and seeing as I trust the taste of many of you here, and that you do nothing short of raving about this series (and with Brandon continuing the series at some stage) I will start my journey on this series, and my first, truly truly epic (almost) completed series! Lets say, a taster for what is to come with The Stormlight Archive! I'll be sure to post some silly questions at some stage, so my only request is that you please keep an eye out to laugh at me!

Thanks for coming to my rescue back there Kurkistan! I'm afraid I haven't the time to read this war you're having with Thought, but with support from your 'shuttling' theory, I will be back to reignite my 'spirit locker' point, with the metalmind as the Spiritual object. One point I would like to make before leaving, apologies if it has already been mentioned, but the 'limbo-space' you feel that the attributes are placed in for withdrawal, could effectively be the Spiritual Realm, and the metalmind's locker within that, because we have no idea how the passage of time works in the Spiritual or Cionitive Realm. For all we know, the Spiritual Realm being a Realm of just power might mean it has no need for time until it is entwined with the Physical Realm. We know from Shallan that time isn't what it seems when in the Cognitive Realm.

Its all about the gateways, in answer to Compounding. The gateway is expanded, and the Power of Creation's direction is changed from, say, being an Augur, to Health. Its getting late, I'll come up with a lengthy post soon. Please feel free to pick holes in it while I think of how to patch them up.

Excellent, excellent points Thought! You've put me into a new perspective. Firstly, allow me to say, that I agree with the essence of your post, how Hemalurgy affects Feruchemy. But its the details where I disagree. So, you state that it is the opening of a gateway in the metal, that takes energy, and that this energy is returned by the Power of Creation. Only major loophole: what causes a return of power? And why does hitting a gateway with calories, bring back the Power of Creation as calories? So, I propose that the metalminds work in a 'similar' way to the battery, but on a different scale. Say, you have a goldmind (health is the most well understood example, thanks to Miles Hundredlives). You wish to store health in it. So, you become slightly sick, etc., and you 'put your health in the metal'. However, I think you're wrong that the metal does not act as the gateway, but the foundation on which to place the gateway. The metal is the gateway. It is the same in Allomancy. When the metal is 'burned' what is really happening is that the Power of Creation is being drawn through the metal from Preservation, and the gateway of the metals molecular trace warps the power to purpose. The metal is consumed in the process due to the great voluge of energy that is drawn through at once. This energy is 'funneled' through the gateway, so Allomancy can only operate at a steady rate (not variable, flaring opens the gateway further), but the abrasion leads the metal to be destroyed. In Feruchemy, it is the same, but in a different way. The health is taken, and through the molecular structure of gold, passed into the Spiritual Realm by the sDNA that determines you are a Bloodmaker. It is now pure, Creation energy. This is stored in your Spiritual 'locker' as it were. If it were in the metal, or the gateway, how could you control when the energy returns? Or why could no one else tap the reserve? If it is stored in your very soul, and the metal is just the key, no one else could take it! This then cycles back through the metal, to you. The energy is slight, so now abrasion occurs. There is no real upper bound because you control the gateway in the metal (your energy). However, through Hemalurgy, your Spirit locker is an attached part of you. To get to the locker, it enters through the metal, gold, and then through the attached sDNA, essentially through the spike. In this time, it is attributed to Ruin, before entering your own locker. And due to the end negative principle of Hemalurgy and Ruin, some energy is stripped by going through the corrupted, transplanted genes, through Ruin. Ruin can fuel this by adding his own Power at this time. Preservation can fuel it by adding Power, through your soul and into your locker directly (you soul is part of Preservation, and thus he has the key too). Please correct any issues, argue Thought's point, or mine, or disprove us both! Revisions advised. Odium's_Shard

Backtracking quite far, but I was sure that there was a BS quote that said that it was to do with not just contact with blood but contact with flowing blood, so no, you couldn't spike a dead person. Or maybe you could, if their blood was 'flowing' out of that great big hole you just cut in them with your sword.

The whole, how it views itself thing sound far to much like Special Relativity for my liking! If it was like that, you'd have so much work on your hands getting to the bottom of a scientific explanation/formula!

One Ring to Lord Ruler them all, One Ring to Wyndrun them, One Ring to WorldSing them all, And in the darkness Surgebind them! Sauron = Odium?

A bit? I'm sure in China some of them can't understand each other speaking the same language, so while I might groan about Americans converting our pure, righteous words (I mean, come on, did you guys start to replace 's' with 'z' just so you could get higher scores in Scrabble?), at least the essence is preserved.

Hm, I'm inclined to revise my point of view, as I was so busy trying to argue on the lower bound, where the Compounding takes no impact, due to the Brandon quote on the subject. However, dyring, you make interesting points about the 'decay' only being able to take off the 20% you couldn't draw anyway... But I do not agree on the 100% storage rate. This is, scientifically, impossible. For health, this much is obvious, as you would of course die immediately if you had no 'health', due to the necessity of immune systems in the body, as well as with healing power. But, if you stored 100% of your weight, this too, is impossible. Everything MUST have mass. No exceptions, up too and not including light. Even so, a few have argued even light has mass. The only way to have no mass, is to travel at the speed of light. So a Feruchemist standing still CANNOT have no mass whatsoever, without the potential ending of the Universe as we know it. Obviously, as the Physical Realm filters this power, the power must obey to the Physical Realm. That means, mass. I can however agree with your that you could theoretically store up to 99.9 recurring % storage. But usually, this is not practical, such as with weight or speed, you couldn't function in any way with that little mass or movement. Besides, who knows if your heartrate slows down with steel storage too?

Or perhaps Jezrien taking a personal interest in proceedings? The Stormfather himself.

Personally, I'm rooting for that Spiritual Feruchemy spike, ten rings each of Nicrosil, Aluminium, Duralumin and Chromium and a cage full of willing test subjects. Maybe that's just me...

How about... Wizard Gandalf Style? Best nerdy parody of PSY Gangnam Style I've seen. But please, if you disagree, point me to another!

Oh, Oxford, thou hast betrayed me! Oxford is an English Standard University though! In fact, they define the English language... how could they print such blasphemy?

Ok, here goes. In your post Dyring, you practically agree with me. My post was heavily unclear, but what I was trying to say with the percentage things was about maximum storage rate (ie, realistically only 75%). Not about the actual amount stored. So I agree, half stored equals half added, 50KG stored equals 50KG added. However, where we disagree, you and Voidus, Windrunner and I, is where the decay factors in. You believe it is in the Feruchemy itself, whereas me and Windrunner think it is in the spike that the decay happens (and we have proof that the decay happens in the spike). So we argue it is to do with decay of the sDNA. So, your image is that the sDNA allows the same storage rates, ie, no different to a normal Feruchemist. However, upon tapping this power, and it returning through the sDNA back into the Physical Realm, you believe that the sDNA is corrupted and some of the power is abraded off and stuck in the sDNA. Main issue here: where does the power go if still within the human? To Ruin? Why, its the humans 'power' originally, due to the nature of Feruchemy. Where can it go but out? Or back in? So either, there is an expulsion of power, which we haven't seen or detected with Bronze, or the human has a 'vital capacity' for power. There is a part of their power, as with breath in the lungs, that they can never quite expel? Next, me and Windrunner envision it that the 'latched' sDNA is in some way broken, some genes decayed, and so the gateway for power is 'smaller'. This means, that a lower percentage can be at once stored, but done over enough time, this doesn't limit so much, as if they rest a little longer, the Inquisitor can reach the same health levels as a normal Feruchemist. This is what Windrunner's quotes were meant to point out; not that Inquisitors have to rest at all, but that the have to rest longer. With withdrawal, it is presumably the same, because the power isn't funneled so much as it is 'released'. This is why there is no practical limit. Main issues: not provable, also issues with what the nature of the decay is. In summary, yours I believe is at least superficially wrong because you believe the decay is in the system of Feruchemy itself, which is outside the bounds of Hemalurgy to affect a natural cycle so, whereas we believe that Hemalurgic decay limits how much the user can access the full world of Feruchemy, but that Feruchemy operates the same under them. Also, ours has no 'backlog' of power. In finality, why does Hemalurgy have to lose power, instead of efficiency? Plus, those sDNA genes being lost before the transplant could be described as the 'decay'. Plus, in your world, the decay happens while the spike is still in the body? Whereas in ours, the impact is stopped upon entry to the body, and it is a matter of 'limitation' rather than 'destruction of power'. Feel free to argue otherwise, and make any necessary revisions or ask questions or disregard my whole theorem. Also, make sure to at some point prove me entirely wrong, so that I am less presumptuous when entering a topic next time! EDIT: Apologies for speaking on your behalf, Windrunner, but this is how I interpreted your posts as feeling!

Urgh apologies the visual aids will be slow in the coming, just received a new edit of my dissertation back from the University editorial and there are some hefty revisions to go over! I'll try to make some time for them, but in between I'll punctuate the long week ahead of me with a few concise comments. To begin with (and in fact end with), on a childish note: It's COLOUR, you American! Even the dictionary says so!

Shame though, that your logic, Zas, was so the more defined and applicable! We'll probably now need to rework a few theories on how the power circulates and also how that Shard itself deals and maintains the power... tough job to place under my Vessel model. Think it needs some reform. If you have any ideas on how to explain the Spiritual Realm away in a 'bubble' like capsule system, head over to Kurkistan's shiphead theorem on Motivation and Execution to debate it with us!

Again, you fail to understand. If we're talking about percentages, then theoretically, no matter their age, they can only become twice (100%) as old, and then twice as young, because by your logic, younger people would have less 'age' to store than older people, which we know is untrue, as the limit of their age is barely ever reached by the bound of the storage! Secondly, you cannot tap a metal and store it at the same time, and we know that if you could, it would merely move the energy across, not increased the amount denoted by 'percentage'. For example, with age, age cannot be given definitively, whereas something like weight is finite. The amount you are capable of storing at once can only apply to you! So if your stored 20% weight for a second, then the next minute, you still being you, that weight is then applied onto you. For age, it is the same. Twice as old, twice as young. Twice as light, twice as heavy. Compounding just increases this ratio manifold. Twice as old, ten times younger. EDIT: I understand the point you're trying to make, but the simple fact is that normal Feruchemy follows the rules you know I have set down, whereas Compounding factors in external energy sources, so input does not equal output. Unfortunately this is Brandon's most obstinate RAFO, so we have so little information on its nature, I'm afraid.

God, I'm salivating at the prospect of a good leg of roast goat and a well-deserved read of Dragonsteel! This will answer so many of our questions, seeing the little Leras as a billy goat, and Odium, the gloomy child who everyone bullied for having a monobrow, destroying the One Ring and running off with the Shardplate and Surgebinding his way to Allomantic glory, while being Observed by a hateful Ati brandishing his Shardblade in front of all the other Splinters and the Witch King... /nerdgasm

Plus, ReaderAt, a quote from the Q&A from Brandon explicitly states that when the power of say Allomancy is used, the power of creation flows back to Preservation eventually, much in the same way that 'raining' is just one stage in the water cycle.

See, here is where I come to Windrunner's defense, for the first time ever! I've been a long time away, but the Q&A brought me back, and so here I'm stuck for a while to right these theoretical wrongs! Firstly, dyring, allow me to prove you wrong by Word of Brandon. In the recent Q&A he explicitly stated that the limit was "on the lower bound". I haven't the exact quote, but feel free to dig for it. He said that there is a limit (humanely, ie, before you die, and also Spiritually) to how much you can put in, but there is no limit (or important limit) to how much you can pull at once. For example, you couldn't store say 1000x weight per second by becoming 1000x lighter, but you could pull 200 seconds of being 5x lighter in one second, and become 1000x heavier. Allow of Law spoilers! @Voidus Do not be confused by compounding here. There is no limit to how much can be stored, just the rate of storage, by Hemalurgy this is lower. But in the same way that any Atium Ferring cannot make a net profit in age through mere storage, one would have to be at least an Atium Twinborn (such as Marsh, synthetically), in order to make any use of it by 'burning' the Feruchemical power, you apply the power of Preservation to your own supply, and exceed your own storage. Here, you could be made theoretically immortal, such as TLR. Lastly, I have seen it commonly cited in this article that the stored gifts of Allomancy decay faster than those of others "because the two systems interfere". However, I would like to put across that the systems do not in any way interfere. At no point is Preservation's power included in the cycle of the spike. The power of Ruin is used to splinter the sDNA of the victim and splint it to the sDNA of the receiver. If these 'genes' are what allows the person to access the power of Allomancy, that should make no difference that any other gene, for it is the gene, not Preservation's power itself, that is being conveyed. However, Windrunner's quote could seem to suggest that Allomantic transfer decays faster, but I most certainly argue that it is not for this reason.

damnation! More complexities. I'm going to struggle to place this scientifically, but I will not abandon the 'vessel' theory, even if the cell model is a bit extreme. First off: My thought was: the colour. The colour, the colour. Gems! As soon as you said this, I thought about the colour directly impacting the system. The colour is used up in Awakening, meaning that something Physical is taken into the Spiritual, and in Surgebinding, according to my 'bend the light' theory on Soulcasting (and possibly applicable to other Surges), the white Stormlight is broken by the gem into different COLOURS, and the Spiritual is then 'passed through' the Physical to create the effect. I'm going now to go off and create some visual aids to present my view on the Investiture resistance modelling.