Odium's_Shard

I don't believe they're limited to them, but I do feel like they are characterised. I hope there are other uses (that are presumably more specialised or adept) than just these three Lashings, but at the same time, changing the gravitation of one object relative to another, sticking two things together, and changing the gravitational point of an object to you (or another object?) seems the three basic moves of these Surges. Sure you could do variations on them but I feel like they would probably be either combinations of or similar to these three Basic Lashings. However the name Basic Lashings gives me the hope that there are other, Advanced Lashings that Kaladin will learn from a wise teacher he will meet in a remote mountain village. However at this moment the possible concepts that these Advanced Lashings could entail are beyond my imagination.

On this lines IIRC, aren't the Voidspren at some points trapped, and a fabrial like device is used to create a bond? Or was that with a regular spren (Listener spren though) that was not necessarily of Odium. I don't believe that the form granted from this forced bond was the Stormform. I maybe be wrong on this though, I'm in line for a reread of WoR. This raises a good point: what causes the Parshmen to turn? As you say, it might be that the Everstorm contains an abundance of Voidspren (don't the Listeners go into the normal highstorms to search for spren for their other more normal forms?) which under the force of the storm or the presence of Odium or some other mechanism forcibly bond the parshmen to them? This would cause them to enter (or be involuntarily entered into) Stormform, from which Odium could manipulate them to become ferocious and attack innocents (or their new alignment with Odium could cause them to be violent anyway, like Eshonai's changed personality).

Just going to throw myself back in to admit myself truly undermined. Relevant to the discussion then, if Shallan committed murders using Pattern, then presumably even the concept of the First Ideal didn't hold her back terribly much, and Pattern knew the Ideal even if she didn't (as was mentioned, going against the Third Ideal affected Kaladin's bond even if he didn't know it). So presumably, whatever defines the moral bounds of her order is quite outside what someone else might arbitrarily consider good and evil... So is what is important what the Radiant considers to be good and evil? Shallan obviously felt justified in the moment with her actions, and even afterwards. However, what was holding Kaladin back from killing Elokhar is that he knew in his own mind that it was wrong, that it went against what he considered to be good/evil. So whilst we're talking about objectivity, isn't all of Shallan's arts of truth and perception all to do with subjectivity? Hence could the criteria that decide when a Radiant is going against the 'right' path be their Cognitive truth that they're going against what they consider to be 'morally right'? The spren can feel this (being like a Cognitive extension) and hence the bond is upset. EDIT: Found a WoB that contradicts my original point about the First Ideal not holding her back: the bond was disrupted by the murders. Source Towards the bottom of the post However I believe my points about the right/wrong and how the bond is disrupted is for the most part subjective except that the First Ideal tends to loom large (i.e. killing unnecessarily is bad). Kaladin's own dilemma with the interpretation of his Third Ideal is still in force, and it seems his Order is specifically held back from that kind of killing or lack of protecting (but its a Windrunner only Ideal, so).

I feel like probably what was the most important thing to take from this quote was that the Honourblade is incapable of healing Shardblade wounds and that those who are Invested properly i.e. Knights Radiant are able to heal wounds to their soul (presumably because of their Cognitive link to their spren, since we know healing has a Cognitive aspect to remember what a human should look like, aka, having use of all their limbs, the spren is able to 'boot' back to a previous 'copy' and use Investiture to restore the Spiritual Connection). I don't think that living Shardblades heal the other person. I definitely think that living Shardblades act much as dead ones do when they act on other people, i.e severing their soul points, but I think that what is more important here is seeing 'having a living Shardblade' as 'being Invested by Honour' as opposed to just owning a magical construct. Hmmm, Honourblades must have some sort of access to the soul for them to act ask usual Shardblades in disappearing and reappearing and being tied to their owner. They also must add something to the soul for them to be able to Surgebind... Perhaps, it is just that: mere an addition, like a welding to the side of the soul. So, it enables to soul to access the Surgebinding and Spiritual power/Investiture, but because it doesn't come with a Cognitive aspect (a spren) which acts in parallel to the soul, it is unable to heal the Shardblade cut by the Cognitive mechanism I described above? The lack of a Cognitive aspect (guiding spren) might also contribute to the madness of the Heralds, or the furthering of the 'fissures' into the soul Brandon was talking about. The person is broken, but has nothing to guide their recovery or improvement, they have power without accountability. This makes me really wonder what Honourblades really are with respect to Honour... are they Splinters, like perhaps the spren? Or are they (random leap time) a mix of Honour and Odium, combining Surgebinding with the Odious influence (and explaining their connection to the Desolations and the torments experienced by Heralds between them?). Are the links to Honourblades the same links that tie the Heralds to Odium so that he can take them back to Damnation?

In his blog post here, Brandon is talking about the change he made to a scene at the end of Words of Radiance involved the confrontation between Szeth and Kaladin. In summary, he says that he made it so that the storm killed Szeth, and not Kaladin. Or more importantly, not Kaladin's Shardblade. I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before (I couldn't find it) so I'm just going to open a discussion about this particular quote from the paragraph explaining this. Source *emphasis added* What does this mean? Which Shardblade is he talking about here? Is it that Kaladin's Shardblade being living allows him to decide if the soul is taken, or give it back, or? Or is it Darkness' living Shardblade that is used to resuscitate Szeth after he falls from the sky? Or is it Szeth who is given/gains a living Shardblade of his own, which heals his own soul (this sounds the more likely meaning Brandon was going for)? I'm just curious as to what you guys think are the connotations of such a thing, which Brandon says is an 'important plot point for the series'?

By intent, I think that Skaa meant more along the lines of Intent. Referencing Skaa's own (brilliant) L-theory (which is a bit of a heavy read to just leave as that) he theorised that the consciousnesses (and hence desires, will, thoughts etc.) of those who took up the Shards are so saturated by the original emotion or driving force of the aspect of Adonalsium's original mind they represent (Odium, Honour, Endowment, etc.) that they are really quite unable to hold much of their own intent or will that does not align with their respective 'attribute', and this overall Intent has a large effect on the workings of their magic system. But Skaa is also right in saying that the kind of Shardworld this is playing out on also has quite a large effect, for example on Scadrial something about the metals and the makeup of Scadrial (whether its abundance or importance of metals) caused the magic systems of Preservation and Ruin (which kind of follow the Intents of the two shards, with Hemalurgic decay being an aspect of Ruin) to be so firmly based around metals. The way that Investiture interacts with the Shardworld and the inhabitants affects the forms the magic systems take, but the Investiture originally comes from a Shard whose Intent also twists the magic slightly to be sort of in line with their Intent (e.g. the system of Breaths is very Endowment-related). The concept that Lightweaving from Yolen is mirrored in other magic systems is very interesting, however. Skaa himself suggested that perhaps Lightweaving and its forms was used by Adonalsium to create consciousness across the Cosmere, or to make himself godly in the first place. I think it depends on how you define Lightweaving... if it is to take power from the Spiritual Realm and twist it using your own intent or imagination and power to create some effect in the Physical Realm, whether that is illusion or reanimated puppet or a reversal of the gravitational pull of Roshar, then I would parry that that would pretty much define any Investiture-based magic in the Cosmere. If Lightweaving was the original manipulation of Investiture, there have since been other variations (which you could label as mere variations) that enable many other effects, gravity defying or biologically revitalising or otherwise, which I would argue are now so separate (even if they originally evolved from Yolish Lightweaving) to be classed as other 'species', or systems, as it were. But an interesting and relevant point nonetheless. Odium's_Shard

As far as I'm aware, both Truthwatchers and Edgedancers have the Progression surge and so could engage in healing (I'm assuming that's the reason you chose Edgedancers) of their dead spren. However whilst I'm of the opinion that Progression is more of a restoration than and organic healing (as in if your arm was cut off it would grow back the arm and not seal the wound) and hence if it was strong enough (and it was even possible) could restore the spren, I have doubts about it as a plot point. Firstly, it seems unlikely that the revived Shardblade would hang about (Adolin would already have a spren), so it would serve little purpose apart from lore and being awesome (Edgedancer confirmed). Secondly, in the case that Dalinar as a Bondsmith can revive it and create the Nahel bond between it an Adolin, this is in my opinion a cooler plot point (especially if it requires Adolin to change as a person for the better to fit his archetype). And lastly from a Realmatic perspective I wonder if it is the Progression Surge or Feruchemical Gold or Allomantic Pewter or any one of these effects that needs to be responsible in order to heal the blade. If the Investiture could be returned to the spren and its Cognitive form reawakened and made more sentient (by way of a forced bond, Spiritual power passed through the 'dead'/unawakened spren and Adolin?) through some other means (like a Bondsmiths express abilities, or a general use of Investiture/fabrials) then they wouldn't be necessary abilities to have. If the spren 'died' because the Radiant abandoned their oaths, could them picking them up again and aligning oneself with the Ideals of their Order reawaken them (combined with whatever is responsible for a notable increase in the number of Radiant of late)? This could potentially lead to many many more Knights Radiant (the kind of numbers present in the past and Dalinar's visions) and explain how so many people could become bonded when supposedly most of the bondable spren 'died'. Also, NB perhaps Adolin becoming Squired/any Shardbearer becoming Squired could help to restore their 'dead' spren? Odium's_Shard

I believe that the spren are attracted to someone based on the merit of their character rather than in specifics their past actions (though these tend to shape who they are, i.e. Kaladin was always protecting his brother, his nature is to protect and serve). Sure, in the past Shallan committed murder, but it was more the fact that she filed the memory and bricked it away, she lied and she lied again and again, and she became almost an illusion unto herself. I believe that was the criteria that attracted Pattern to her, and the Cryptics only have the rule that you mustn't lie to yourself so that you can tell the difference between the reality and the illusion you're creating. Lightweavers and Elsecallers both seem to be rather vague morally, but I agree with Maxal that they can tread on this moral ground because they do what 'needs to be done'. All of the Knights seem to work towards a 'greater good', even if they don't see it. Their ideals lean towards their own survival in some cases, implying that if they see themselves moving forwards as towards the 'greater good' they may be able to forgo protection of others (life before death, but whose). And in the case of the Skybreakers, "I will put the law before all else", that's about as moral as a stone. This Order seems to be able to perform any objective action, as long as it is on whatever law they define. So , I would conclude that a Knights Radiant is no more evil than the law, and no more 'good'. I would define them as being 'honourable', of course, but each in their own way. Some see honour as protecting the weak, some see it as always enacting the law, and others see it as leading, avenging, and being truthful to oneself. These are all honourable paths, and can surely lead each Order to a very different course of action. It is very difficult to conclude that Jasnah was out of the 'right' to murder the three thugs, seeing as those with the Transportation Surge (Elsecallers and Willshapers) were seen as unreliable and erratic by members of the more 'order' Orders. Anyway, that's long enough for now I think.

IIRC, with the Inquisitors and those that have been Hemalurgically spiked, this affected their Spiritweb such that there was a backdoor to Ruin (seeing as the spike needs to create a link to Ruin when the whole ritual is observed in order for it to work/have power) where the spike was placed. This allowed him to access them and in the case of those heavily spiked actively control them, as they were Invested more and more in him. Similarly, for the Voidspren and the Listeners I believe the same occurs, in that by way of forming a bond (is it the same sort of Nahel bond?) with the Voidspren in order to access the Investiture that comes with it (that powers the abilities), they Invest themselves more and more in Odium and hence he gains a degree of control over them. It also seems like their self and their Ideals become more and more aligned with him (similarly to those engaging in an Honor Nahel bond becoming more and more aligned with the Ideals of their Order?). The only reason I am hesitant is because the Voidspren bond may not be the same (it seems more forced) so the Ideals point may be off, and the singing of the songs complicates matters (maybe they aren't aligning with Ideals of Odium, but are instead more likely when under his influence to access Forms that constitute the emotions their songs express, a greater tendency towards Rage etc., since they all seem to be accessing the same Form to sing the same song when they bring the Everstorm).

That's sort of the idea that I was having, Spiritual Realm is like the power source (and in a weird way, User Account Control?), Cognitive is like the motherboard and the BIOS (which only some users know how to access) and the Physical is like what is being shown on your monitor.

For some reason, the way I always thought of this wasn't that they were travelling through the Cognitive Realm, but that they we using their aspect in the Cognitive Realm in order to 'channel' or refine their ability to travel (between Shardworlds or otherwise). To elaborate... I've always thought of the Realms as a process, that is their Physical 'reality', a sort of description in terms of location, appearance, which they can alter and change through the Cognitive Realm by taking Investiture/Power of Creation etc. from the Spiritual Realm... to me the Cognitive Realm feels like a bridge between the two which tie you to your Power of Creation and 'channels' it to the usable form. You need the right Investiture/sDNA/Nahel bond etc. to be able to access it but if you do, you do it through the Cognitive. So, in the case of worldhopping or elsecalling or whatever else, hearing about this new WoB in regards to the Spiritual Realm not being tied to location or at least location based gave me the idea for the following process: The Elsecaller is in their Physical location, and they decide to 'hop'. They access (since this is a topic about entering Shadesmar, my personal opinion is similarly that it is a perspective change) the Cognitive Realm, which takes the form of a sea of beads. In Shadesmar, the location of objects or at least the distances to anything else in the Cosmere may be highly condensed (as the beads of things in the same room might fit into a hand e.g.). Hence visualising or obtaining the Physical location 'data' of the object/place they're trying to hop to is easier/possible. By channeling Investiture through this data or path they're visualising/actualising in the Cognitive Realm to their Physical 'location' aspect, they change the value or however else it is determined such that their Physical 'reality' changes and they have moved/hopped to the new location. I don't think of it as them moving their entire Physical aspect into the Cognitive and then moving it and putting it back, but I do think the fact that the Cognitive Realm being tied to location (but possibly not in the same way as the Physical) is essential (it can access this 'data'). The Spiritual not being tied to a location also makes sense, as your Spiritual reserves don't need to 'move' with you (your new Cognitive location can still access the Spiritual in the same way), and when you dispel your Shardblade it is accessed the same way, no matter your location. Just my personal thoughts on Investiture processes, applied to the specific instance of Elsecall.

But the kind of hatred that is described by the word 'odium' also implies separation as well as a complete disillusion of emotional connection. It's not just seething hatred, its a cunning and cruel hatred. It doesn't lash out, it plots the demise of all.

I might just have forgotten, but when he says "that other statement was actually very clever, if you think about it", presumably referring to A blind man awaited the era of endings, contemplating the beauty of nature, what is the meaning behind this? Is it in an epigraph or has this prophecy been deciphered as to what it refers to? I'm very curious. Thanks, Odium's_Shard

Perhaps they wanted the Investiture, the power they could feel within Adonalsium. Presumably, there was only one system of magic (or none at all, if Investiture cycles only form around Intent and Adonalsium's Intent was perfectly balanced), and they wanted several (or one at all). Perhaps Hoid led the way towards the Shattering, not knowing what it would cause. Much like in Wheel of Time (spoilers ahead): I believe it was noted in either The Letter or The Reply that once Rayse was not like this (I might be wrong) but regardless my opinion is that Rayse, as one of those who colluded to the Shattering, took the Shard thinking of its power, or maybe even forced by Hoid to take the Shard, not knowing its Intent, and was twisted by it. Perhaps Hoid is trying to stop Rayse/Odium (this is all speculation and hypotheticals) because by Splintering the other Shards, and removing the forces of willpower (the Shardholders) that keep them from reforming, he is (maybe accidentally) allowing Adonalsium to slowly re-coalesce. So either Hoid is the direct antagonist, the misled reformed hero, or the true protagonist.

Perhaps since the definition of Odium is similar to complete abjection in addition to complete hatred (so he is dispossessed, alone and also unable to consider any meaningful relationship to another being), Devotion might provide a suitable opposite. Otherwise, I can't think of the opposite of Devotion (except perhaps One-Night-Stand). Odium's_Shard

This implies a definite Physical aspect. But I would say my point about spending presence in the Cognitive to gain it in the Physical would still hold.

The method of revival that was used... what does it do? Did his Spirit tie get cut, or were his memories removed, or what? Or is it just a fresh start in a purely pragmatic sense.

In fact the decoded Pattern 15 at Chapter 84 of WoR contains this juicy snippet: Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new Orders when they return. Looks like this could relate to Taravangian breaking the KR when they return.

It was my opinion (because of my believe of how humans are split between the Realms) that Feruchemical nicrosil could store Investiture (not in pure form, but in a kind of Nicrosil-bent way, it exists in a form that allows it to be contained by the Nicrosil), and then when this is released, depending on whom or what or probably where it was released it would take different (but ultimately similar) forms, such as Stormlight or maybe even metal reserves or some access to the Dor. I had the feeling that the kind of power Aluminium-shaped Investiture provides is similar to a 'cleanse', which isn't very useful when you have metal reserves in your Spiritual 'hold', but might be useful if you had, say, your gravity flipped by Stormlight. It wipes whatever Investitures (be they metal reserves, or maybe Stormlight) are affiliated with your person (perhaps including Breath, which is just annoying) away. I presume Duralumin could provide its spike in power to other forms of Investiture too. Odium's_Shard

I think the WoB was that the people of a Sel had a particular setback in their development of Worldhopping, which they had to overcome (which slowed their Cosmere-awareness even though they are now still ahead). This might refer to the fact that their particular magic system is difficult to use to Worldhop in the first place (to potentially discover other systems that are easier), or that something about their Cognitive Realm equivalent caused an issue. I believe he is referring to Brandon stating that a guy asking about whether the fact that the Purelake, despite being so shallow, was so prominently mountainous in Shadesmar was onto something, or something else (I don't recall a question just about the mountains of Roshar though, I just remember this one about the Shadesmar Purelake mountains).

I wouldn't say that Szeth is 'anything' other than a necessary product of his experiences. While I do not absolve him in any way from the guilt, and in fact I would ladle more guilt on him from that fact that he more readily continued as he had been than confront the truth of the return of Surgebinders he saw with his own eyes, I would say that the defenses he developed, such as his anger at those too weak to stop him, and not blinking to stop the images of the horrors he carried out, I would say he was almost forced into these paths by the stress of the culture and expectation that was placed on him. He is a product of his culture's intrinsic dogma about the powerlessness of the Truthless to disobey their masters. On another note, I'm not sure what it is that they press on him would be the result of disobedience (something about his soul, maybe?), but I do not think that in anyone other than a member of their culture this would be sufficient reason to obey such orders, despite their own morality. So Szeth was delusional and while not entirely to blame for having his reason and logic quashed, definitely responsible for not resuming it after a certain point (way before he suspected Kaladin's abilities, and most certainly after that). I understand him as a character but I do not absolve him. Only he can do that, I feel, and I think that maybe he might. Odium's_Shard

That raises the question about how Cosmere-aware the people of Yolen were (how did their magic systems work, if at all, with Adonalsium still intact), and whether they at that time knew all of the other planets in their dwarf system (presumably they knew some, so the Shardholders fled there after picking up their Shard of Adonalisium, or the Shard itself gave some kind of knowledge).

WoR Spoiler.

For Scadrial, I recall a WoB that specifically states that this name does not originate on the planet, and is not used by the populace to refer to their planets, and from that I concluded that is must have been named by people who know about other planets and might need a name to refer to that planet amongst their members... So I thought the worldhoppers made the names. Odium's_Shard

Why would she need to? The Lightweaving can certainly cover that, I'm sure (I don't remember reading that it doesn't, if it couldn't that would indicate something very strange about being lighteyed).