Odium's_Shard

Shout out to 6. and 8. for being directly from me (about the magic systems and bindpoints) and from me through Kurkistan (about stealing Shardblades Hemalurgically)! Excellent questions, guys! Hope to see discussion expanded as a result. Especially about what I will dub Hypo-External Hemalurgic Practice (HEMP, for short) to describe Hemalurgy in other systems!

Yes! Kurkistan asked that question for me! I'll summarize what he and I have been working on over on Cosmere Theories for this area (sDNA and hemalurgy) in the terms of eye colour change, and because its a Stormlight spoiler, I'll not mention any other system in detail. So, the Blade is theoretically stored in the Spiritual realm. The user has access to this, as its storage 'location' is written into the sDNA. This 'extra gene' as such, in the unexpected way of normal DNA, has unexplainable consequences, that are always consecutive. In this case it is the formation of the protein coding for blue eyes. However, this suggests that in their very DNA lighteyes have the 'gap' made specifically for the Bladegene to go. In essence, something different may also go wrong (as other genes are pushed away) when a Darkeyes receive a Blade that is not a problem (or a benefit) to Lighteyes. Just something heavy to think about! Feel free to ask anymore, I'll try my best to answer, or please challenge my theory! I love a good logical argument. Odium's_Shard

Its the new metals that sold AoL to me. It creates an even more exciting combat scenario, and previously unseen combinations of new abilities! Plus, the ramifications of this in modern life just add to the worldbuilding.

You missed out the prospect of Mistraths, Staff!

You're right, while the cell system works quite well for visualisation, its clearly not the entire model. I'm more inclined to believed, like you have said, that the Cognitive in some way leads off from these 'Spirit bubbles', and that the rest is floating in predominant (liquid?) emptiness... with Power from Shards somehow funneled in in the case of invested objects. This however leads to a problem with the whole 'holding Stormlight' aspect that made this theory gel so well with Allomancy... If the 'bubble' has no resistance, then how does it contain the Stormlight. But you make a good point about the Cognitive ability of gems in return for their ability to hold Stormlight. Can normal objects hold Stormlight? I have never seen (or do not remember) Kaladin placing Light into an object without a Lashing of some kind, and we know that humans breathe out the Light through their pores. However, does this not apply to inanimate objects? Can a rock actually hold Light without a Lashing? Or is it that any object can, it just has to be moved by an Invested human. Does the spren in someway facilitate the movement of Light? Could the rock hold the Light indefinitely? Is it just that the gems have some particular quality that allows them to capture the Light from Highstorms? How do we know that during his experience in the open with a Highstorm it was the gem that absorbed the Light, and then Kaladin from the gem, as opposed to the Light entering Kaladin to begin with? After all, most people caught out in Highstorms either die or aren't Invested, so this can't easily be tested. Is it only gems that absorb Light? Why? Something to do with the molecular makeup, in the same way that the molecular structure of the metals allows the power of Allomancy through? I hope we can help answer these questions in terms of your theory, and perhaps a mix of mine. Also, interestingly, I would like to know what you think about Brandon's reply to me in which he stated that 'the Power of Creation comes directly from the Shard, for the most part, but the Shard often has no control over who uses the magic'. I do believe you were on Zas' thread that suggested that the Power of Creation was through, not from, the Shard, and I do believe that this means we'll have to redefine some aspects of your theory that don't depend on the presence of the Spiritual link to a Shard. Odium's_Shard

Excellent! I think your phrasing was generally better than mine, and I didn't think to raise that. While perusing Brandon's answers, I did notice that! I feel happy that my idea was novel! My answers were a bit general so I think a bag full of RAFOs will be in order to punish me for not being specific to pin him down! We'll hopefully see soon enough. I'll most likely be back here to update my theories if any of my questions are even in part answered. Good job, everyone! Odium's_Shard PS Excellent addition to critics rave, Kurkistan!

I don't think I'm quite clear on it myself (after all, gravity, due to my unfortunately scientific viewpoint, cannot be viewed as in an alterable way, and yet here it seems the only solution). My personal interpretation is that the Light (Stormlight) used within the person to alter their sDNA that determines their effect by this force, such as the way they interact with the fields and such forth, and that the Stormlight only shifts this sDNA for the time it remains in the body, and it is being used up all the time (this is why bodies Szeth made float to the ceiling dropped after a time). Eventually the Stormlight is burned out. Similarly, for other objects, the sDNA is altered somehow in their Spirit Vessel. I think as you say, since humans have the same Cognitive power, and do no subject themselves to it willingly, this must be through the wall. Sorry about this, I wasn't clear. What I meant is that at the 'gate' to each supposed cell (not really cells, but just for visualisation purposes) their is a Cognitive door. This allows the Cognitive Realm of a person to control the innings and outings of the cell. Hoid could travel through these links to Shadesmar to emerge from a different spot in Physical Realm. The rest of the cell is entirely open. This is where you might puncture it. Maybe, realistically, there is little or no resistance, and it is floating in the power of the Realm, and the free space, but in order for the Stormlight to be trapped and this system to remain intact, there has to be a seal of some kind. And the Spiritual realm isn't only within these cells. These cells are just points in the Realm itself, almost like a locker within a school. The Cognitive deals with opening the locker and perceiving the sDNA, and the sDNA helps with power channelling from outside the cell (such as Allomancy taking power into the cell, and then 'burning' it through the metal gateway, to enact in the Physical realm). I think I need to clear up my viewpoint, so any other confusions, please ask! I'm obviously never 100% correct, or we could be on a tangent here, so I'm not allowed to say what is right, so please help to destroy this theory for the sake of progress! Odium's_Shard

While I appreciate your point, I would like to just highlight one thing: If you follow Windrunner's new topic on the nature of the Cognitive, I recently created the idea that perhaps Preservation wasn't the one who locked away Ruin's power, but Ruin himself. See, Windrunner's theory suggests that the higher the imbalance between a thing's Physical and Spiritual aspect, the lower the Cognitive ability. Simply, if more of Ruin's Spiritual power was in Physical Atium, he would potentially have more cunning, sentience, or cognition with which to trick or outclass Preservation. However, maybe with the use of his power to trap Ruin, Preservation also gained a wad of sentience.

I'll be quite brief, as its getting reasonably late over here. I would first like to express my intense gratitude for such a prestigious author to answer the questions of some of us insane folk, and I just know that this'll get us all pulling up all sorts of obscure references from this Q&A at least until Stormlight 2, and most likely will fuel discussion for months! I have only a few simple questions that are mostly a matter of clarity, and a few that are needed to fill gaps in our knowledge, or to clear a current discussion; here goes: So, firstly, is the Cognitive realm the only way to access the Spiritual Realm from the Physical Realm, and vice versa? Can magic systems from one world work in any given other? Does the Spiritual power used in any given magic system come from the supporting Shard itself, or through it from the remains of Adonalsium and the Power of Creation? Lastly, less pressingly, do Spirit Points (hemalurgic spots) apply to ever magic system, and through the Cosmere at large? Ie. could Hemalurgy be used to take any other magic systems aspects, and do other magic systems also have these 'Points', such as Body Focuses, that work in similar ways? Thankyou so much for taking the time to answer even some of these question! And keep up the great work, I can't wait for Stormlight 2!

This has turned out to be a very good discussion for honing my own viewpoint on the matter! Thanks, Odium's_Shard

So, quite a while ago, I made an assumption that was quite similar (though not at all as neat and presentable; good work on the Venn Diagram-esque pictures) to your own about the nature of the Cognitive Realm. You have taken the opposite view point to me, and I like yours better. I believed that the Cognitive Realm was a bridge between Realms (similarly to Kurkistan's 'directives') and thus if you have not Spiritual presence (such as a rock), you would thus have no need for the bridge between them, and so you have no Cognitive. I assumed the reverse for spren. However, I like the balance that this theory requires. A Shard has little Cognitive presence due to the minuscule size of one aspect. I eventually came to believe (due to the nature of my Vessel theory, that assumes that in order for, say again, a rock to be Soulcast, it must be accessible in both the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms) that all objects had some Spiritual presence, and your theory leads me also to predict that even Shards need Physical presence (such as lerasium). Many people wondered why Ruin stored himself in Atium, for humans to take away his power, but maybe, in the end, he was just trying to gain Physical presence so he would become smarter or more cunning than Preservation (which we see in the Mistborn plot), by 'shifting the scales' to make the 'shared area' larger. For now, I hope you don't mind, Windrunner, I'm going to leave it at this and (hopefully) come back with some possible (and maybe good) revisions, or at least offer supporting evidence or contrary viewpoints to shape this theory. i think this could be quite important in the scheme of Realmatics that I have been trying to piece together with my numerous attempts at provable theories (many failed). I also believe Kurkistan's is important in being, or finding, the correct viewpoint, so you should check out the link.

That was a comprehensive reply indeed, Chaos~! I how am inclined to agree with Zas on this! If the power of Shards was the highest power, then they would have ran out long ago! The fact that Preservation had to 'place parts of himself' in humans to create their souls and morals already infers that he would be far depleted, and a thousand years of Allomancy would destroy him. No, my theory on while Preservation was damaged by this (and by trapping Ruin) is that in order to permanently pin down some of the eternal power of Adonalsium, he has to 'split' himself to cope with it. So, one part of him is holding Ruin in that prison, but separated from the 'Intent' of the Shard, becomes callous raw power of creation (and a sacrificed part of Preservation is the glue). Also, if Chaos' theory was correct, it raises the question as to why the Shard would ever let the user tap any of its power ever? If it was to be depleted, it would surely restrict access instead of trying to increase it? However, if me and Zas were correct, Preservation would for example benefit from humans 'pumping' power into his system from the Power of Creation, that gives him more flexibility and more parts to 'splinter'. This then raises the question, inevitably, as to how humans pump the power through Shards, and why the Power of Creation can be only access through Shards and not by them directly. Or why humans can access them at all, if they themselves are just facets of the Power of Creation, and how the Shards used it in the beginning.

Thankyou for taking the time to respond! No need to read up on my old posts, most are either now widely disregarded or have passed into general knowledge. Sometimes I wait days to hear comments, so this speedy reply is most welcome! I have quite specific set of terminology that I believe has long since become extinct. By 'tunnel', I don't think that necessity for a literal 'gap' through which the Shardblade would pass is logical. Rather, a Spiritual power base, presumably stored in the 'Spiritvessel' (this will be explained later) of that Shardbearer in the Spiritual Realm, would be, by Cognitive direction (thought), formed through a Spiritkey (sDNA gene?) passes through their Cognitive assumption (following your idea that the Cognitive Realm is mere perspective), and is then held into place by a Cognitive process, and 'fueled' by this specific Spiritual power. Next, my ideas on the basis of Hemalurgy depend rather heavily on a rather incorporated theory of mine that is generally accepted (though I can only take one credit in its creation) which is rather creatively called 'Vessel theory'. This process was quite heavily extended (much like your own) by me and Telcontar, around March time this year. Prepare yourself for a (reasonably condensed) version! Basically, this theory operates on the distinction between Windrunners (and presumably other Surgebinders of some form) and Soulcasters. How come the Windrunners have to take Light into themselves to use it, while Soulcasters are able to escape this indiscretion? In short: perspective. The Light in one case is held in a 'vessel', who happens to be alive, due to its chemical/Spiritual make-up, is able to hold Light within itself. Most likely a Spirit gate facilitates this (allowing a closed system that is un/bottled by Cognition). So the Light here is held by the Windrunner, due to the conditions on which the Light must be 'bent' (assuming Stormlight as pure white light, the different colours are made in a prism like Spirit key, and represent different abilities), and then the Windrunner use that Light to affect other closed systems, in which the power given by the Surgebinder must be greater than the resistance given by the system. For example, in animate objects have little Cognitive presence with which to encapsulate their Spiritual goods, and so are easily breached and manipulated. However, a Soulcasters magic is dependent on the Light being bent by the Gem. And thus the Light must come from the gem. However, there must be some kind of Spren operating Spiritually in a Nahel bond in order for the Soulcaster to take the Light from one closed system to another. In the process of having the Light remove, the gem suffers stress in its boundaries. Large shifts of Light can crack the gem. The Light is then used as a 'bribe' for the object to shift form in the Cognitive realm, which I believe exists around objects Spiritual boundaries, which link to Shadesmar and the Shardworld. The Soulcaster then breaches the bribed object and 'alters' (somehow using the Light) its make up. Thus, Hemalurgy uses the power of Ruin, stored in the Spiritual realm, to breach and steal information from within a spiritvessel, which could be thought of, I guess, as a 'cell', in the biological sense. It contains genetic information (sDNA), has a slight power gloop running through it (plasm) and has a cell wall of some Cognitive kind determined by willpower. Thoughts welcome! Odium's_Shard

Hello all you Realmatic Theorists! After an extremely long break contemplating this dissentation, I have returned, and immediately spotted this thread. A few (few) of you may remember that quite a while back, I created many active discussions about the simple nature of the Realms, not their extensive applications. In fact, the Spiritual to Cognitive bond was kind of my area of study. How excellent that a thread discussing exactly that has come to such prominence! Now, I think its quite right for me to go reasonably academic on you all, considering what a very candle-lit pen to paper few months it has been! I will begin by mentioning that due to their extensive nature, I haven't read many replies, so some of what I say may be repeated, however I did read most of the OP and the evidence and points made there are now to be discussed. Expect a few more ravings of little importance over minute aspects of theoretical Spirituality theorem over the next few days! The above is in the OP. Here, as its quite late over here, I am merely going to interject an opinion with a small evidence base. Here goes: I think the key here is literally as you say a 'Cognitive key'! The main quote for evidence would be that it is numerously repeated that the Shardblade is just a thought and ten heartbeats away. This, I believe is a simply Cognitive 'execute' and Spiritual 'directive' chain, though the directive could be replaced by 'delay' or Physical 'restriction'. Simply, the mind changes the parameters of the 'hold' on the Spiritual Shardblade, and the Blade is released, and manifested in the Physical realm through a 'tunnel' of sDNA. This tunnel is somehow connected to the Spirit Point above Heart, and thus the ten heartbeats. This I hope makes sense. However, time for the crazy bit. In accordation with the laws of Hemalurgy, this could mean that the access to a Shardblade could be stolen (without the Blade being 'given' or 'dropped from death'), literally stolen, with a certain metal over the heart. Perhaps the hand is also linked, so that the Shardblade is dropped there, and also so that the Shardblade dissipates when dropped or can change hands if given. Comments always welcome, and Kurkistan, good theory! Well presented and excellent concept, at least. Odium's_Shard

He can, but would he? I feel Odium is more of the 'orchestrated plot' type.

What, paste you? I think I've already infiltrated the dictionary in your brain.

Don't you mean especially modern soldiers, in real life? In fantasy, it is controlled by the writer. In reality, it is controlled by the enemy.

I understand what you're saying, but about the half-Shards, I was inferring that what is used to fabrial-strengthen them could be used in, say, a cheaper (than Shardplate) gauntlet that has enough power to draw back a slightly enhanced cross/bow that could, for example, set arrows on fire as they passed, or strengthen the heads. Alternatively you could just foresee every eventuality, ignore the advice that we have spent our time developing within this thread, and simply Soulcast that poor bugger of a Shardbearer into a tree. End of. And nobody is supposed to know about my double identity as both Rayse and the Shard of Hatred, whereupon when anything that the latter says, the former is instantly called upon to back the other up, in order to provide evidence against the subject from with the opposing post itself... but you can just call me Jim (not my real name for protection against the forces of Light within the Cosmere).

I agree with Windrunner about Mile's saying Harmony's words doing more harm than good, as when a more reliable source emerges, people would exclaim that he says the same things as a prisoner, a madman, and thus derive the message. Besides, the 'red and gold cigar box' brand was 'Citizen Magistrates'. An expensive brand. Do you think that these 'magistrates' are the friends of Edwarn Ladrian in the upper crust, involved in this scheme about the women? Or at least, they own the brand, the company? And so Miles in his final breath made a warning, or a threat, to the peoples, that these people and their scheme (loosely referenced with the cigar box so that only Wax could understand the hidden meaning?) will bring about the downfall of democracy, or at least become all powerful, using their new Mistborn? Or, even more dangerously, are they attempting to abuse the Allomantic genes of these women, not to combine all the powers into one body, for then this body could just kill them too, being way too powerful to control, but to increase the chance that they will create a child that is a Misting for the 'final metal'. Perhaps Mistings of this type are extremely rare, or have no access to or knowledge of the metal and their powers, and so when this Misting, a Finalist, is created, and the power is exceptionally incredible, then they could rule this way?

Somehow I doubt that any crossbow could stand up to the Shardbow, but may mimick enough force to crack the plate. Also, one might be able to put research into 'half-Shards' of Veden (?), using the power of fabrials to create incredible power from a weak man.

But even still, this implies that a conversion of some form is possible between charges.

So Ruin made up the 'Announcer' so that Sazed would feel comfortable that he was, or had, a 'role' in the Ascendancy, and s wouldn't question as much the discrepancies in the prophecy, as he would feel (as he did feel) up until the last that he was only the Announcer, and that Vin must be the HoA? That was cleverer than I would have attributed to Ruin, who's very intent is to destroy now and think later. Though he did have 1024 years to plan. Bit of an advantage.

Yes! This makes much sense! She said (Marasi) that the officers searched Miles everywhere when they arrested him, and before the shooting, to make sure he had no metalminds. When I first read AoL, I had assumed that because Miles Compounded using Allomancy, he swallowed metalminds, and so they were in his stomach (is this true? If it was I doubt Miles would wear any on his arms?). But maybe, he really didn't have any. At the same time, if they were Hemalurgically driven into him, such as with the arm bracers, Harmony could use these moments to speak to alot of people, everyone who attended the execution, in a meaningful way. However, Miles seems to expect the boost of healing he receives at the execution. This implies that either he was healing himself, or the Harmony told him he would preserve him so he would speak to them, appear as a legend, and then when Miles served his purpose, stopped fueling the Feruchemy. What I don't understand is that, if Harmony is aware of danger, he doesn't tell ALL the Pathists, including Wax, to become the Preachers, the Harbingers of the men of Red and Gold, as surely this would spread the information far wuicker than at a villain's execution? After all, who would believe him?