Odium's_Shard

Hoid is either a brilliant mastermind that can clearly see how everything fits together, and nudges pieces in the right direction in hopes of defeating Odium, or he is a brilliantly gifted agent of his own design that he is seeking to achieve. If he has a secret agenda, it will become more obvious as more of his interventions are noticed.

I'd be happy to help you with anything I can (both of your theories that I have read so far have been interesting to me as you might have seen from my posts on them), though in general my thoughts are largely incoherent with rare flecks of inspiration. Bear in mind that most of my ideas are based on my personalised view of the Cosmere and how the Realms interact, I'm sure I have written it down somewhere but I'm not sure if my ideas have ever been collated (they're unnecessarily and indulgently complex, and this collation is going to remain on the To Do forever). Your theory fits perfectly fine within my own, which I why I have no trouble adopting it (I like it because I like Physics and I think its nice to explain things with unneeded detail). Before I think I just imagined Investiture like a luminescent breath, some flowing mist, that when it enters a person makes them glow (a la Stormlight). Odium's_Shard

Ok, thanks for the heads up, Tempus! That's a cool idea (and is very versatile in terms of inter-planetary actions). Perhaps the perception that spren must operate on a Physical level because one can see them (thus the brain tends towards imagining them having Physical properties) lend them abilities in that regard? Or perhaps Syl, because of her relation to Investing someone with the Surge of Pressure/Gravity (?) has a better ability to do this. In all honesty I think its more like that they aren't Cognitive concepts seen in the Physical realm, but (less) Cognitive beings lent partial Physicality by a spreading of their Investiture between Realms. Thus the matter that composes them could just be atoms the move along like a kind of 'ripple' from the pressure imposed from the pervasive Cognitive Realm. As for the 'only certain people see them', maybe this is only people who are expressing their ideal, noticing their ideal, or with whom they have shared something on a Cognitive level. Odium's_Shard

On the Nicrosil question, I would like to put across my idea of how to link this theory with its Feruchemy (and corresponding discussion of Allomantic/Feruchmical Aluminium). So, for the Feruchemical property of the storage of Investiture. I don't see this as a real issue to this theory, mostly that the wavelength or at least wave-function (and thus its properties when in reality transferred to an equivalent Physical/particle event), is altered by the body it enters or leaves, much like diffraction when a wave passes through a gap or over a ridge. This entry point is what I would call the Spiritual key of an individual/system/object, determined by its sDNA or Spiritual properties. This should solve the problem of what is stored in Nicrosil, I believe it is pure potential (Investiture) stored in a vessel in a certain form (the wave-function it exhibits in Nicrosil), and then can be used and transferred to other wave-functions by different Spiritual gateways (metals, people, spren, etc.). The Investiture is shaped. Lastly, a quick point on Aluminium and why it can stop Allomancy and also destroy metal reserves. I believe metal reserves to be non-Physical (not actually in the gut) but tied to your Spiritual sDNA (with some Cognitive to be able to access them) and they are stored in certain wave functions (which differentiates their affects). Each metal, on digestion, provides a certain key that transmutes some Investiture from the Power of Creation into a wave-function with an equivalent effect. In my opinion, whilst their might be 'pressure', similar to AonDor, pushing on the other metals (waiting to be allowed through the sDNA gateway), Aluminium (due to its structure or Spiritual gateway properties?) has the inverse, and takes in Investiture, such as that travelling towards you (if worn) or your reserves (if burned). If this is true (this is pure conjecture) this could have some interesting effects on other planets. (My backup theory is that the wave-function of Aluminium, or its actually effect, is that is washes away the Spiritual keys of surrounding objects, making all Investiture passing through them uniform or unshaped, causing metals to burn without effect and Invested radiation aimed at you be made generic and unharmful/without effect, though this theory is much more tenuous). Odium's_Shard

This is just a bit of fun, but could a 'Cognitive shadow' on Roshar form a Nahel bond if it was sufficiently Invested and attracted to the emulated ideal of a specific human, and thus avoid 'passing on' altogether (and becoming some pseudo-sentient spren?). In fact, since spren have memories and sentience, who is to say they weren't all once people, or people all were once spren breathed into Physical being. Odium's_Shard

This topic swerved onto some interesting discussion about the interaction of a Cosmere planet and the nature of Investiture cycles of magics that can occur on it. The point was raised that if any other creature of Investiture was brought to Roshar it too could link itself to a human or other Cognitive aspect that displayed its appropriated Ideal. In the same way an honorspren was attracted to a man of honor, and could form such a bond as to transfer Investiture, perhaps such a creature could be bound. So, since a spren is Investiture and is bound to a Physical loci, is this similar to the way in which Feruchemical metals retain links to the Investiture that was given to them in the form of physical properties, or memories? Do all Investiture cycles mimic each other with slightly different foci on different planets, depending on the embodying fragment of Adonalsium (such as Honor creating a system with ideas and ideals)? So the systems created by Preservation and Ruin, while having the Physical focus of metal, embody ideals associated with their Shards, such a preserving stores of properties, or the way in which people are Invested (Snapping when in a situation of Preservation, or being Ruined so to speak with a metal spike). Odium's_Shard PS: Apologies for the ramble, I flitted through a lot of heavy stuff here quite briefly.

This is a good question, and I feel that Argent has provided quite a suitable answer based on what we already know. I would just like to interject a point or two that I feel could be of use to a discussion of this nature, as opposed to a direct answer to your question (which I feel has been achieved). So, my main point is going to be on the nature of an object's 'Soul', which is collected in the Cognitive Realm as a sense of its Identity (some hints at Allomancy here, I feel, though I won't divulge). So, since we know that a thing in the Cognitive Realm can be directly affected by the length of time, or the duration, during which it has considered itself to be of a certain Identity. For example, and as a general guide, this response will contain potentially major Words of Radiance and The Way of Kings spoilers, the ship that Jasnah and Shallan take from Kharbranth. When it is asked to take the form of water, it protests, on the nature of its service and time as a ship. It considers itself to be a ship, not a compilation of individual planks. The parts of the ship have begun to collect their Identity together to form a single, stronger, Cognitive presence. Interestingly enough, the ship takes into consideration the pride to serve, and the love with which it is treated by the humans aboard the ship. Thus I think it is proper to say that an objects Cognitive presence varies in strength depending on ideas. The idea of the planks as a single cohesive unit is brought about because people see it this way and believe this. The belief of humans strengthens the idea. Thus the Cognitive presence is strongly affected by the perception of other Cognitive presences. Secondly, the Ideal of pride or love strengthens its presence, and is again strengthened by the humans that perceive and determine this emotion, in the exact same way as the Cognitive presences of spren are strengthened by the prevalence of the idea they represent. In accordance with Argent's point, this would allow the spren more of itself, more Investiture, to spend on a presence in the Physical Realm. Thus I hypothesise that the way a spren appears in the Physical Realm is that it has sufficient anchoring and presence to do so. It has gathered enough Investiture to do so. Its presence in the Cognitive Realm has a 'pushing' effect on the Physical Realm, and a part of it pervades and can be seen. When an idea is expressed nearby, spren of that idea's type that are around (since the Cognitive Realm appears to pervade the Physical) are bolstered and thus can seem to appear nearby (they may be attracted by the idea in the Cognitive Realm, and then when the idea strengthens their coherence/presence they can be seen Physically). This is slightly off topic, but in this way, the Ideals and Words expressed strengthen the spren associated with the Nahel bond, because their idea is expressed supremely, and they gain memory and coherence as a result (and presumably Physical stability). In this way, I move onto humans entering Shadesmar. Humans entering Shadesmar have a strong Physical presence, which they can expend in the opposite way to spren to gain some form of presence in Shadesmar. They are also linked to spren, who share Investiture with them that they can use to strengthen their own Cognitive presence. Similarly to Argent, but by different means (and I hope expressing some interesting thoughts in the process), I arrive at the conclusion that all objects have 'presences' that can be split between the Realms. If you are more in the Cognitive, you are less in the Physical and vice versa. Presumably more Investiture leads to a greater presence, and the more strongly your associative Idea is expressed the more Invested you might be (for spren, at least) and the more you have to expend. One last thought: perhaps if a spren utilised all of their presence to appear Physically, would they die because they are singularly Cognitive entities? And if a human lost their Physical grounding, would they lose themselves, or would the strength of their Cognitive presence or Investiture be enough for them to regain a Physical presence (Elsecall...?). Odium's_Shard PS: I'm back, it's been a long while, please forgive any mistakes and if Word of Brandon directly contradicts points I have made, please inform me. TL:DR Ramblings off the back of Argent's response, potentially uninteresting to those without a large amount of patience.

Could be a certain significant colour combination on Sel following Lightsong's saving of the God King of Hallendren, might represent courage or some such when worn.

I agree with Weiry that knowing of the existence of three distinct Realms doesn't even open up enough understanding to fully comprehend something humans such as Hoid take advantage of in Worldhopping. It is simply not enough understanding, and I highly doubt 'innate', to fully explore the intricacies of Realmatics to a very utilisable degree.

I myself (who saw this coming?) made an interesting point (what an ego I have) on the possibility of Foci in all three realms too. Which while the word Foci was discouraged, bears strong resemblance to this and the Three Parts of Magic theory (which was fundamental in the beginning of Realmatics) but links the terms commonly used in regards to this and the Three Part theory. It is located here.

I think that was Brandon's sarcasm. Fortunately for me, at least on this forum, by name and by title, I am a Shard. You may ask your pitiful, though annoying insightful into the nature of Brandon's future books (threatening to destroy RAFOs left right and centre), questions now, foolish mortals. *Ahem* Any takers?

But I still think it is relevant to understand that that sliver of Ruin was finite til it was quashed by the overbearing moral qualities of the Shard and its Intent.

The idea of a medium is nice. In a way, the metal is a medium too, upon which the Spiritual power is transferred, and then the metal is consumed. Its important I think to note the comparison to Investiture on Sel being similar in its form-based nature. Probably a reference to the atomic structure being key, or allowing a power tranfer through a 'window' of form. Might be important in this definition. Either way, nice pick up! This quote is definitely of import in this discussion.

Or the relative importance of string theory if you had no concept of macro level interaction in physics. Why would string theory be important except as a concept if you had nothing of the other spectrum to form a complicated application upon? Everything is useful and capacitated in relevance to opposing needs, wants and desires. If only to aggravate and defeat those opposing needs and wants. EDIT: Also wanted to congratulate Shardlet's eloquence on this matter. I haven't been able to find the right words to respond with such an accurate and piercing message. I need to pick my words more carefully here, people are more quick to pick up literary mistakes and misconception, which I approve of wholeheartedly. Odium's_Shard

Maybe I'm speaking in Chinese. That happens sometimes. I went off with a mistake in what I said and felt I had to defend it. Read Shardlet's post. That sums up everything I am trying to say.

What I'm saying is that power does not bring Intent. Presumably Shards couldn't 'balance' in this way.

Not to truly understand them. You cannot feel maths anyway, just understand it. You can't see it, it is merely an illusion, not a sensory experience.

The Intent shouldn't be based on the Power or Investiture given by the Shard, or relative to it, though it permeates all forms of Power of the Sgard, it is more of a paradigm by which the Shard operates on without pause, unable to see the world through a different perspective. Intent is ever present in the Shard and its Holder regardless of the Power left/transferred.

This was put much more clearly and powerfully than my broken up and shattered references. Thanks, Shardlet. Though what this means in the Cosmere... Maybe nothing. Maybe something interesting if all Shards have these contrasts. But I think Brandon has said some/most don't. Do/n't quote me on that! To clarify: understanding and recognition and above all appreciation, when looking at something for what it is, being able to truly analyze and comprehend something, can only be found in a difference, in a contrast. Humans cannot think of what they have not before seen. It is impossible to conceptualise something without inspirtation or experience or relation to existing experience.

Depends whether or not its been tried. But I think its pretty safe to assume there are only 16 metals if those are what the upper bound of discovery has been in so long (but then again, they believed ten for a long time). Also it was interesting to think Feruchemically. Would it be like trying to store into a brick, or does it make Sazed sick as well? What causes the sickness. If it didn't make Sazed sick, surely it would have been much safer for Sazed to test metals than Vin?

I can't fully appreciate. To the betterment of my appreciation would be a time completely blind. Also, maybe I can't 'fully understand' the importance or extent of my vision capabilities. It was more to do with feelings, it can't apply so well to things that people haven't had points of comparison in. Its easy to say in retrospect, but since we literally haven't had the point of comparison, who's to say that the comparison isn't of value or who can speak of the value gained in terms of understanding.

Can a blind person conceptualise what it is to see?

Of course not. Because I've never felt it. That just proves my point. I cannot appreciate what it is to see, because that is my norm. If I was blind, maybe I'd be more appreciative of sudden ability to see and not take it for granted.