alder24

All Vessels look almost the same (in terms of clothes etc), Ati's appearance didn't change. Rayse however changed his appearance, iirc Tanavest wore unfamiliar to Dalinar clothes. Sazed still has Terris robes he was wearing during Ascension. Leras was shaking when he drew the knife and was unable to use it. That's what I meant. His personality was changed, but tbf Leras isn't a good example, because at this point he was already dead. What remained was only a shadow of his mind, not a real Leras.

Embrace the metric system! Kal wins in 109.361 yards race (bleh, what is that number?). KALADIN AS A BEST FATHER? Excuse me? What? Because he said he accepts he can't save everyone? What logic is that? Kelsier already was a great father figure to Vin, encouraging her to trust, to love, to expose herself and smile! He swallowed his hatred and pride and saved Elend just because she loved him. Kel wins here for sure. Kaladin can't even have a stable, long lasting relationship, while Kel has never stopped loving the women who "betrayed" him and constantly thinks how Mare would love to have a daughter like Vin. It's the opposite, Kaladin's killing spree and rage is the result of Odium's influenced and weeks of torture. This isn't replicable. His eyes were glowing gold and red. But Kaladin breaking down and collapsing is replicable, happened multiple times already. He freezed in Amaram's army twice. He freezed in Kholinar's palace before Marsh shows up, he freezes several times in contact with Marsh and after losing his friends. That is replicable, as it is already well established that Marsh and torture aren't needed. Kill his friends, squires, bridge 4 members or better, his family (before 4th Ideal) and he would simply freeze and collapse, unable to do anything. Yes, but that doesn't kill him. Kel can just wait for Kal to die of old age. Win. Some damage? Yes. Madness - possible? Death? I'm not sure, he is a very resilient CR, Fused or Heralds aren't killed by a shardblade blow, he likely wouldn't be killed too. But yeah, I know, it's about Era 1 living Kelsier, not CS Kelsier.

I would say his ability to steal a bond with Stormfather and a championship against Odium makes him very capable of large-scale destruction - if he succeeded he could release Odium from Roshar, deadeye Stormfather or do some more damage to Roshar than we can even imagine. That's not specified. It's about "Dangerous in this context isn't how strong they are in a fight, it is more so about how much harm they could cause on a wide scale." - controlling armies for me counts as a damage on a wide scale. It's all about interpretation here. Cultivation now knows how to Splinter Shards, conducted a plot to kill Rayse, intervened in Dalinar an Lift's wish and is actively opposing Odium. She is very active if you ask me. Point me please where is the word individually in OP I see "harm on a wide scale" and "isn't how strong they are in a fight" - this for me means more than a single guy walking around and killing people with his magical powers, it means about control and influence one can have, followers he can amass, armies he can muster, charisma he has. Napoleon was a very dangerous person not because he could walk around Europe by himself and destroy any army opposing him, but because he had armies of loyal soldiers ready to die for him and charisma to inspire them. Hitler wasn't "individually dangerous", he was dangerous because of his charisma and fanatical followers he had. For me those things are important. Very important. Could Kelsier walk up to TLR and kill him? No, never. And yet he abolished him and killed him indirectly. Not because he was "individually dangerous" but because he was a charismatic smart person who with limited resources created a rebellion against him and trained Vin who killed him. That's why Kelsier is dangerous.

Yes, compatibility of the Shard and understanding of its intent is a huge part of being a Vessel. Like you said it's also extremely important to resist Shardic pressure, otherwise you lose control over Shard and Shard will control you - like what has happened with Rayse. But this comes from mind - not wisdom, but from how strong their will is, how well can they control it. The more expanded their mind is, the better they would be in resisting Shard's intent. Immortal body is of no concern anymore, as a Vessel stops being a living person, they stop being a human or dragon, and they are just a Vessel now, a Shard. Their body is vaporized by the immense power of the Shard. It's gone. That's why immortality doesn't matter.' Yes, but that's more because the mind of an ageless person is severely stretched by age, he will be worse as a Vessel after already living for thousands of years, because his mind is damaged. But a person who didn't live that long and never suffered from such a condition will be better. (or like Jn said, a even a mind of a person damaged by agelessness will be "healed" by the power, and the only thing that matters is just how strong his mind and will is) But it still goes to the individual strength of a mind. For example, Jasnah would be a good candidate for Odium, despite being a mere human. She has a very strong mind, a very strong will and she would be able to control Odium well. With this context in mind, we don't know how strong a dragon's mind is compared to a human's mind by default? Do dragons have naturally stronger minds, more expanded? Or are they comparable to humans, despite being better at handling immortality? Another thing to consider is that with a more expanded mind, a Vessel can control more power at once. In that regard, if a dragon had by default a greater mind than humans, he would be able to control more power at once as a Vessel. That's of course mostly my opinion based on information available to us. Mistborn spoilers WoB: Mistborn spoilers WoB: Dragons are naturally ageless, he somehow gained a second form of immortality or something like that:

Only that it's a crystal. A thin shell of crimson would be more or less like a glass in my opinion.

I think the best way to handle this is to create a Donor Center, where people can voluntarily donate their powers and attributes via Hemalurgy. Donors would have to be fully informed about consequences of Hemalurgy and possibility (or certainty) of death. Those powers could be then given by spikes either to the previously specified adult family members (without any previous criminal record), be used in hemalurgic experiments, or given to a special swat team to increase public safety. Of course donors should not only get full free medical attention for life, but also be paid for giving up their powers or attributes, just like with Breaths on Nalthis, if the donor dies, money should be given to his family. There can also be introduced a new penalty for the worst criminals - death by Hemalurgy, or stealing their powers with Hemalurgy (if they can survive) - of course only the most severe crimes should be punished by this. Most Metalborns should have a chance for redemption. Keep in mind, even if a donor survives spiking, he will suffer severely, he would end up worse than a Drab. There would also be consequences for him in the afterlife. Some of those negative effects in the donor's soul can be managed with gold medallions, but this will require a lot of healing, and it will only create a patch on the soul, not bring back the real part. Moreover, for recipients, each spike damages the soul, creates a hole in the soul, which can't be easily repaired, and will never be fully fixed. The more spikes a person has, the more mental health problems he will suffer. And there might be some complications for children of spikes recipiants. Hemalurgy, while it has a huge potential, is always ruinous.

What? That would be illogical. Where would that weight go? It's like asking if a rope can hold a rock and then throwing by levitating in the air. Your arms will have to withstand 900 kg for you to hold that rock or something. Which is something that won't happen. You are the anchor point. Physics still works. If it can pick it up, if it is strong enough it will pick it up, But your bones would snap under 450 kg, arms would be ripped off your joint, and you would just collapse under that weight. Unless you're some kind of strongman that can hold that much weight. That human didn't weigh 900 kg. And his shirt was anchored along his whole body. You can push a person into a wall without losing balance. That was basically it. F-pewter doesn't really have an upper limit so no. Tying yourself tightly in thick ropes will prevent your joints from bending. At best you'll end up with the same result. Shardplates? Awakened ropes throwing rocks at them. You don't even need them to be attached to you, just Command them to find a rock, brace with the ground or another rock, throw it into a Shardbearer and repeat. It can just do it by itself. Throw dozens of them and they will crawl around searching for rock and throwing them at a Shardbearer. On a smaller scale, Awakened slingshots throwing smaller rocks - those used by Parshendi were very effective against a Shardplate. You can Awaken your Mistcloak-like cloak and make stripes pick up rocks from the ground throwing them at a Shardbearer. If it is a dead plate - Lifeless bugs with diamond tipped mandibles, crawling under the plate, finding gems and breaking them, or eating eyes of the bearer, eating into the brain killing them. Also you can use Lifeless poisoned scorpion which would stab them poisoning them and things like that. The same bugs can be used on a living plate, just crack or break one section of the plate and throw bugs at them, they will crawl under and start eating their flesh or find spheres and break them. It will not immediately kill Radiant, but will start draining them out of light. Throwing Awakened ropes to bind their hands and arms. Your idea, Awakened sleeves holding rocks like a warhammer. Combine all of this and maybe you will overwhelm a Shardbearer or even Radiant. Command Breaking is similar to Unmaking and emotional Allomancy (somewhat). Because of that I wouldn’t be surprised if you could mess up a spren with that, or establish hemalurgic control over hemalurgic constructs like Koloss. Returned can change their height. If they want of course. That's a very good point. TotES Spoilers:

Yes, but what does it mean in practice? How many percent of Odium's investiture enlightened spren have compared to an Unmade? Can Sja-anat access Voidlight? Does she enlight with the use of Voidlight? Unmades seem to be made primarily out of Odium's investiture, they're Odium's Splinters after all, while enlightened spren are capable of Radiant bond, which suggest there is a lot of Honor and Cultivation's investiture in them still. Enlightening is done after a consent by a spren is given, while unmaking doesn't care about it. Unmaking essentially kills spren (words of the Sibling), while enlightened spren doesn't seem to be "killed" in that way. Sja-anat also said that Odium can unmade her enlightened spren and he can unmade Unmades, which would steal their memories and rip them to pieces. Enlightened spren don't look "ripped to pieces" if you asked me. As I said, this is pointless. There are only unknowns, we know nothing concrete and we simply can't draw any conclusions yet.

No it's not as Raboniel has a surge of Transformation, and Odium was the one previously unmaking spren. We don't know how enlightening works, if Voidlight is even involved. That's pointless to argue like that. Both of us. We simply lack information to say if this is similar or not.

What have I done? Yes, if he wants to get lifted by a rope attached to a stone thing barely holding itself to a wall, then that stone thing will break. Nylon is synthetic (I think), it would be very hard to Awaken, like stone. If this is how tensile strength works then yes. No, the human body is squishy, metal plate armor is not. A Shardplate gives something like 20x more strength, if you could find a rope that would withstand that, then yes, you can restrain them. Technically, in SA they throw ropes at Shardbearers, so regular thick and strong ropes should still do the job and restrain their arms/legs. Yes. And stop an arm while swinging. And catch an arrow mid flight, which is an impossible feat. Yes, but you have to invest them so much for them to resist being cut. More than Vasher used in his fight against Kal. I doubt it. We don't know how many Breaths he has, more than 50 that's sure, but likely in low hundreds. Not much. He might not have his clothes there too. But give him lots of Breaths and time to prepare, then maybe. But he don't want to get killed, so why would he care? F-pewter would like to have a word with you. That's why I like Awakening. It has cool rules and restrictions, but so many possibilities that your imagination is the most restrictive part of it. I wish we have more Awakening in Cosmere, more Nalthis.

Then Kel in both.

But she as an Unmade is not red. There is nothing red in her. Enlightened spren are red, but she as an Unmade is not. She might not be corrupted at all. Re-Shephir is black, no red there as well. Ashertmarn is a black heart, no red here either. Only Thrill is red.

None of them, because both of them have no idea what a computer is or how it works. Kelsier There is no basketball on Roshar nor Scadrial, they don't know the rules, but Kal would fly with the ball in his hands, without making any steps, and put it in a basket, scoring. So Kal wins.

Sja-anat is not looking red at all. Sja-anat isn't destroying spren, she is enlightening them. We don't even know if enlightened spren lose their memories. For me this is not the same.

Why does everyone want them to fight? Why not "who would win in a drinking contest" or "who would be the best father" or something more friendly? So why Kel didn't lash out immediately on Moash or Pursuer after Teft's body was dropped in front of him? He? That's what would happen. Just kill his parents and watch him break, there isn't even a need to kill him at that point. Kaladin suffered break down by just seeing Roshone dead. Which is precisely what I've written. And are we talking about Kelsier? If that's the case then Kel can't be killed, he is CR, Kal can't kill him, nor he knows how to make anti light. So technically, present Kel can just win by waiting for Kal to die of old age. There is literally nothing more to add in a normal fight between era 1 Kel and 4th ideal Kal. You've already covered everything. Kal wins. No question asked. So I'm just going wild.

Nightblood is less dangerous than Bondsmith unbound: I think Ishar or Hoid are prime candidates. But Kelsier is too, not because he can fight, but because he has Ghostbloods, he can use them to start rebellions, assassinate people, mess up words etc - if it is this kind of mess we're talking about, then Kelsier would likely win. Just give him enough time and he will topple another government or god. He almost "killed" Dalinar and took his bond and connections. His insanity makes him even more dangerous and unpredictable. Plus he controls Tukar and Shinovar. He can control others and force them to kill each other. But your right. Yes, but that's a future potential not right now. Add to this his control over Koloss army, Inquisitors and Kandra, and the whole Scadrial population under his rule - he can mess things up in a more general way than 1v1 fight. One of them is. We know nothing about the others. And one dragon clearly was very active, she is a Shard now. He also has Phantoms. If he were to invade a minor world, he would conquer it. It really depends on what kind of danger we're talking about. In combat or in general? There are dozens on Roshar alone. They have agents on many other worlds as well. Then unknown leader of Ire or whatever. I feel under fire, I've just listed potential candidates, nothing more

Tbf it's "who would win" but win in what? Maybe it's a card game, and Kel has already proven that he can always make other play the way he wants In any card game Kel will win. Maybe it's a contest of who would kill more innocent people - Kel will win, as Kal won't kill innocent people. On 3rd Oath Kel could just kill Kal's family and watch him collapse and mentally break down. WIn. But on 4th there isn't much Era 1 Kel could do. With Atium he can try something, but that's not gonna work for long. He can't even kill his family and friends anymore as Kaladin is now accepting that there are those he can't protect.

Shards/Vessels are on the table? Ishar is very dangerous, Nightblood is dangerous (he killed a Vessel). Rashek would be there high on the list, but he's dead now. Dalinar as a Bondsmith (not yet, he's too green now) Hoid is the most knowledgeable person in Cosmere with lots of powers, he can mess things up even though he can't kill or harm. There are dragons and Avatars too. God-King has a lot of Breaths, he can make an army of Lifeless with that. Marsh has Atium. Kelsier has a big secret organization messing with other planets, the Ire was very close to stealing Preservation. And Rysn has a Dawnshard.

Hoid stories? I think there are a lot of things that might refer to ancient Roshar/Ashyn or the future. The Origin has some islands for one. Diagram is another big one. Renarin's visions. Ten Fools kind of. Epigraphs in general. And this is a very wrong place for that post. That's a huge SP 4 spoiler. This should go into the SP forum section, not here. At very least put that whole WoB into a spoiler box, with information above that's SP 4 spoilers. Or you can cut the WoB to start with the part "There are questions there. Okay, so you still believe in that kind of like-" with the information above the full WoB is SP4 spoiler.

That's medallion nicrosil, which is different from normal. Bands were going low on attributes stored there, Wax noticed that. Medallions don't do that. So I think the most likely scenario is that F-nicrosil works like other metals, like zinc. I think this can be interesting, as you can store your A-bendalloy a lot, and then tap it to grant yourself stronger Allomancy, bubbles with more compressed time. Which can make you something on a smaller scale of what Wayne did. If it works like other metalminds not like copperminds. I wonder if you could store medallion granted abilities in your nicrosilminds? In that way you could slowly collect new powers.

First of Hoid bonded Design long after he held a Dawnshard, this should have no ill effects, Sizgil was likely bonded when he used his Dawnshard. Secondly, it doesn't disprove my theory - him becoming a Dawnshard might mess up Aux, Deadeye him or something similar, and later he did the same what Adolin is doing right now, trying to revive him, create a reverse Nahel Bond. It's not about a Torment, it's about being a Dawnshard and having a bond with spren - this killed Aux.

No, nothing on it.

With this I disagree. From Coppermind: Unmaking uses the Surge of Transformation. The Sibling considers being unmade into something else as equivalent to death. Sja-anat believes Odium could unmake the Unmade again. This would steal their memories and rip them to pieces. She also fears he will unmake her children, both true spren and lesser spren, to the same effect. Yes, kind of, a living version of Deadeyes. Their mind is lost, there is something missing in their soul.

Isn't the air drag a frictional force? Without air drag, there is no terminal velocity. Per WoB it will work, but per other WoB there are still some restrictions, so I guess you're right and those are the reasons why you can't run with steel and Abrasion as fast as possible. In case of Adhesion I do wonder how it will work, as a vacuum bubble is right next to normal air and that bubble would still need to push the air in front of it to the side. It can cause some drag. Mabe creating some gradient will help, but I personally doubt a Windrunner will be able to achieve speeds close to the speed of light in the atmosphere.

More like a spring around his leg, absorbing energy. It won't help you if you fall from too high, but on some moderate heights it would work well, Warbreaker ch 56 No, that's lethal even for him. Unlikely. Unless he has a very long rope that he can use like a spring, under him, not on his legs. He doesn't have a parachute, nor his clothes would provide enough material to make one. How tall were they? Around 30 feet tall, 10 meters? Yes, he can. You ask a loooot of speculative questions Both. Awakened clothes are so strong that they can throw people into the wall, Warbreaker ch 51: ch 53: ch 55: ch 49: My explanation of this is (aligning with the WoB saying that Awakening doesn't give any extra strength) if a piece of fabric can normally hold a person's weight, it can also throw him, hold him, add strength etc when Awaken. If your clothes, ropes, fabrics etc can normally hold your weight, then Awakening will make them work without tearing. But the Awakened material has so much strength, that a single thread can twist metal mechanism of a lock, which I think is a lot from a thread, too much to work with this idea, ch 49: