in Truth,watcher of tv

Might as well get my guess in here before WaT comes out I think the fifth Ideal will be something along the lines of “I will trust others to protect in my place”. This would allow a Windrunner to delegate and take a step back from the front lines in order to lead a large population, while not contradicting previous Oaths. It also follows with the themes of trust and hierarchy of the Surges of Adhesion and Gravitation, respectively.

I generally agree with your point about nature, I just through that in there because Rosharan nature keeps throwing us curveballs and I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing all the plants and bugs rising up against the voidbringers. Probably just the greatshells though. It's also not lost on me that singers kind of fall under all the three of the categories that I outlined: humanoid people, part spren (from the formspren), and gemheart-bearing creatures of Roshar. I do reckon that they will fall under the Stormsmith's jurisdiction though, I don't think there is a functional difference between them and humans when it comes to the Bondsmith Ideals, only perceptions and unbridgeable divides have prevented unity in the past. Also, I agree that the listeners will probably end up worshipping Cultivation primarily, though I do see a fair bit of Honour in them, with how they handled the assassination. I kind of messed up my wording here, I meant the Windrunners have a relationship with the highstorms which are indelibly linked with the Stormfather, and the same would go with Edgedancers-gemhearts-Nightwatcher. So not a direct connection. But yes, the Nightwatcher would have a relationship with everything close to Cultivation, especially mistspren. Interesting, I hadn't seen that. Is that about Nahel Bonds or just general unity? In my mind they each unite a group together and to the Knights Radiant, making a whole centred on the Radiants. Those three groups being humans/singers, spren, and greatshells. I'm of the opinion the platespren are some of the more auspicious of the lesser spren; for things made of Connections having such powerful Connections in itself would make them more important, which is one of the reasons I mentioned the riverspren's size. I personally think the Truthwatcher's have the luckspren/mandras, because both them and the mistspren seem to share a distinct eagerness to help and work with others, the common thread between the three being 'facilitation'. That said, I do like that we agree the Nightsmith plate would be a watery spren.

So, this is a bunch of theories about all things Bondsmith that have been simmering in my head for a while. I’ve tried to keep it concise, so I can probably expand on my reasoning if need be. Feedback welcome. Firstly, waterbending. We have fire magic with the Dustbringers, air magic with the Windrunners, and earth magic with the Stonewards (as well as literal elemental magic with Soulcasting). Adhesion can manipulate pressure, and Tension includes water surface tension; to me, those seem like the two forces you need to move and shape water. It also fits thematically, water being a universal and regulating substance on a living planet, especially Roshar. Secondly, the Nightwatcher. The only thing we really know she does is the Old Magic, but I think this is misleading. As a Bondsmith spren, she is by definition broadly Connected across Roshar and has a crucial role, but playing a genie for the occasional person who enters her Valley doesn’t match this. I think the Nightwatcher is the spren of gemhearts. They are a manifestation of Investiture, and it would be fitting if the Stormlight provided by the Stormfather is held in gems of Lifelight provided by the Nightwatcher. If the Windrunners have a special association with the Stormfather, then it makes sense if their counterparts on Cultivation’s side of Surgebinding have an association with the Nightwatcher; the Edgedancers’ Soulcasting essence is crystal after all. Third: Bondsmith responsibilities. Considering the Bondsmiths are sworn to unite but are Bonded to vastly different spren with different Intents, I think the different Bondsmiths will swear to unite different types of sapient beings to the Radiant cause. Since Honour acts as the god of people on Roshar, the Stormfather’s Bondsmith is sworn to unite “men” (which probably can extend to singers). Cultivation acts as the god of nature, and we are starting to see that many of the greatshells are at least somewhat sapient, so I would think the Nightsmith swears to unite the greatshells (or even broadly ‘nature’) to the cause. When it comes to the Sibling, it’s a bit less clear. The other two have Shards with well-established areas of Investment but for the Sibling, being a mix, I can only think of two phenomena on Roshar that could be described as an even mix of the Shards: the Knights Radiant and spren. I’m fairly sure all three Bondsmith’s are responsible for uniting the Radiants, so that leaves the Siblingsmith to swear to unite the spren peoples. Fourth: Bondsmith influence. This is a bit out there, but I was thinking about how the Bondsmiths are meant to be “guiding” as an Order, and what this could mean. They are the centre of a web of Connection and represent a powerful conduit of Investiture, so I would expect that Intent to influence the union. It seems to me, within a society, Honour relates to centralised hierarchy and militancy while Cultivation relates to grassroots productivity (warform and workform each triggering a Pure Tone of the Shards is a good indication). So far, while there has been only a Stormfather Bondsmith, the Knights Radiant have been gathering to Urithiru and fulfilling their Oaths in militant ways: soldiers, field medics, spies. When/if we get a Nightwatcher Bondsmith, I think the Radiants may decentralise a bit and we will see the them moving to more community focused roles: leaders, social workers, artists. We’ve seen a bit of this in RoW with Kaladin being forced to step down from the military and finding other ways to protect, this may be setting up future storylines. The Siblingsmith I would think has either a balanced effect or could cause the Radiants to have a more internal focus. Fifth: the Platespren. Gloryspren likely form the Stormsmith’s Plate, but they don’t really fit with the other Bondsmith spren. The Platespren are generally ‘cousins’ or related concepts to the Radiant spren, and glory being a bold, noble and socially oriented concept is fitting for the Honour-aligned Bondsmith. Cultivation, on the other hand, is a more subtle, nurturing and nature focused Shard. So, I think the Nightsmith’s Platespren might be riverspren. In terms of associations to the Nightwatcher; you would expect to find a river in a mountain valley and the Nightwatcher is described moving through the trees like a river. Riverspren are also notably large and smart spren like windspren and they would connect back well with the Bondsmith’s possibly manipulating water. As for the Siblingsmith, I would guess their Platespren would be awespren; they would be fairly common around Urithiru and the listeners sing about the Knights Radiant to the Rhythm of Awe.

I’ve given this some thought myself and I figure these might be describing the Cognitive aspects of the Surges. Anyway, I agree with @Elite01 that the Fused Brands can be used as a third reference point for the Surges’ influence on personality. This is how I figure it: Adhesion - trust/responsibility, basically establishing Connection Gravitation - authority, hierarchy, maybe a bit of charisma Division - seems to be about selflessness in the sense of separating ego from decision-making, both Orders externalise their morality Abrasion - sympathy seen in DB obedience and ED empathy Progression - maturity, augmenting in a qualitative sense, generosity Illumination - revelation as you said Transformation - individuality, I think this is about the unique way a thing’s Cognitive aspect filters/changes the Spiritual aspect Transportation - independence, thinking for yourself Cohesion - conformity, the Deepest Ones are a good example for this Tension - we haven’t seen much of this one but I would guess integrity, compromise (in the sense of making allowances) or perhaps augmenting in a quantitative sense

I’ve thought about this myself, you can definitely see some patterns in the personalities of groups that share a Surge, although it can be hard to pin down. I think it’s also useful to look at the Fused since they are defined by the Surges as much as the Knight Radiants. I think these principles/themes might be the Cognitive and sometimes Spiritual aspects of the Surge, as opposed to their more physics-based Physical aspects. My ideas for the list: Adhesion: establishing trust/responsibility (this is fairly explicit with Honour and f-duralumin) Gravitation: authority and attention (Connection focused on a person) Division: impartiality and selflessness (both Dustbringers and Skybreakers externalise their morality) Abrasion: sympathy and influence (friction is basically how much two things will move with each other) Progression: maturing and augmenting (has less of a personality itself but modifies other Surges) Illumination: revelation/understanding (fairly self-explanatory) Transformation: individuality (both Orders have personalised oaths) Transportation: independence and the self (both Orders and the Brand insist on going their own way) Cohesion: conformity/consistency (both Orders look at group dynamics, the makay-im act as a single unit) Tension: integrity and power (mostly guessing at this one)

Here’s a thought, maybe the different Bondsmiths each have a different Platespren. They are generally thought of as ‘cousins’ to the Radiant spren and each of the Bondsmith spren are vastly different. Further, while glory suits the Stormfather/Honour, being bold, noble and socially oriented, it’s at odds with the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. The Cultivation side of things is generally more subtle, nurturing and nature-oriented; I’d put forward that the Platespren could be riverspren. Riverspren are described as one of the largest and most intelligent of the lesser spren, right next to windspren, which I’d guess could be due to an association with Adhesion. Water has been conspicuously absent from Surgebinding and its associations, despite being critical for life and omnipresent, especially on Roshar. Also, the Nightwatcher resides in “the Valley” which almost certainly means there’s a river nearby and her appearance was compared to one. On these discussions about colour and appearance, @Firesong, I don’t think we are meant to take the Steve Argyle art as canonical depictions. In the books, from what I remember, living Plate and Blade are always described as being silver-grey metal with the seams and engravings glowing with the standard colour associated with the Order. Some spren have a similar colour but others, like logicspren and creationspren, do not. As for appearance, the relationship between the Radiantspren and the Platespren is more of an abstract one. Their concepts are related (such as creativity and patterns) more than their physical description.

This isn’t really a theory, I just kind of wanted to highlight and enjoy this little feature. Some people have probably already noticed but some people won’t have. Basically, spren are cartoons and animation flourishes. Roshar as a setting is partially inspired by anime (if the ridiculously large magical swords weren’t a giveaway), and many of the spren are pretty much exactly how abstract and intangible concepts are expressed in cartoons and anime. For instance: Windspren are how wind is portrayed; as a long, pale, translucent line Concentrationspren are like the ripples sometimes used to show psychic powers Musicspren would take the shapes of musical notation if they were on Earth I’m fairly sure anxietyspren are the throbbing forehead veins used when a character is stressed Logicspren are literally brainstorms

I reckon Cabine correspond to Jezrien, since protecting and leading are about responsibility and childishness is about being irresponsible. Eshu I would say is definitely Pailiah, since it’s talking about information rather than thoughts or viewpoints I would guess Dilid matches Battar in being about pursuing something you know is pointless or I could see it relating to Taln. Those Vorins love a well-structured table, I’d guess the numbered Fools match up directly to the numbers of the Heralds. I can’t remember the context behind those quotes but; 4 would match Vedel and might be about forgetfulness or apathy, 6 would match Shalash and could be about deluding yourself, 7 matches Battar and -well- the opposite of wisdom is foolishness but this could be about futility and so be Dilid. Off the top of my head, a few more Fools might be: Nale: disrespectful of rules or authority Chanarach: cowardice or recklessness Kalak: indecisiveness Ishar: might be faithlessness or heresy

I figure the Unmade were the unique cultural spren of the dawnsingers, that embody some of the major concepts which are conspicuously unrepresented among the spren we know. Also, I suspect the singers essentially sold them out to Odium in exchange for the power to fight humans, which is the betrayal that prompted Leshwi to ask if the spren had forgiven them. So, when Odium unmade them he twisted their basic concept to his Intent and purposes, and since they were important spren to the singers this made them ‘his’ people. I think the fuzzy association the Unmade have with the Heralds/Knights is through the platespren and the forms they grant the singers, and so indirectly related to the Orders but not philosophically aligned. A few I’ve thought of: Nergaoul: spren of love (and/or lust), which was turned into bloodlust; lifespren-mateform B-A-M: spren of forms became the spren of forms of power; linked to the Truthwatcher platespren which I think are mandras - maybe meditationform Sja-anat: innovator of new or custom spren maybe, became the corruptor; creationspren-artform Ashertmarn: spren of festivities became about mindless excess; Willshaper platespren (musicspren)-resulting form (songform I would guess) Moelach: spren of funerals or maybe ancestors; could be associated with Stoneward platespren especially if dawnsingers buried their dead or flamespren if they cremated

This theory has been bouncing around in my head for a while, and it was reinforced by what we hear of the Iriali in Tress. Looking back through old topics, I found one that had a similar idea but it was before the new information in Tress. The Iriali religion says of their god that "the One knew everything but had experienced nothing and so became Many to experience everything" (the Many here being the Iriali). They were also set on the Long Trail through seven worlds where the One will recombine (I wonder if this is when they get to the Seventh Land or when the finish their stay there). In Tress we learnt that this Long Trail isn't simply a worldhopping pilgrimage but a magical event, which is either involuntary or can be activated by a minority, based on how its talked about happening overnight. I think the Iriali's One is a Shard, when the Vessel Ascended they would have the understanding of reality that a Shard has but have experienced almost nothing (relatively) of life and the Cosmere. The Iriali would have something like Splinters attached to their souls (comparable to the Returned) that record their lives and pass on to new Iriali after they die. I definitely don't think they themselves are Splinters because firstly that would probably make detecting them too easy, and secondly that would mean the recombination of the One would involve the entire people being absorbed into a single entity (horrifying stuff). Some people seem to think the Iriali religion is based on Adonalsium and the Shattering, but this WOB supports the idea that it is a based on a Shard, since it is related to the Shattering but later events are more important (ie. the actions of a Shard): Also, this WOB fits with the One being a Shard; if they were created by a Shard with a human Vessel, it would be somewhat human but not really: I think it's specifically the unnamed Shard thought to be related to 'wisdom', because the religion says they desire experience in contrast to knowledge, which is a large part of what wisdom is. I wonder if the Vessel Splintered their own consciousness as the religion suggests, or if they just Splintered the power of the Shard and are quietly waiting in the Seventh Land for their people and power to return to them. It would make sense for them to want to have experience as a Shard as well as as mortals. Anyway, please tell me what you think. Thanks

To me this seems a good one but for Endowment and Dominion, since it revolves around granting others power. Since Autonomy is about individualism and ‘survival of the fittest’, I think the combo with Dominion might be along the lines of Autocracy or something; it’s basically a compound of the two words already.

The way I see it, the Shards do have pairs but many of them are more like counterparts rather than opposites. So, my list is: Honour/Autonomy= rules and responsibility vs rule bending individualism Endowment/Mercy= granting vs relieving Cultivation/Whimsy= planned change vs arbitrary change Odium/Valour= punishment vs reward Devotion/Dominion= to be affected vs to affect Ambition/speculated wisdom Shard= considering vs acting (or something)

That's because I'm talking about a single magic system on Roshar. Stop trying to make this something it isn't. I've never, not once, tried to apply Surges to anything except the Knights Radiant and their spren. I acknowledged and agreed that the Surges are based on universal principles. You've repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, ignored key bits of my posts and occasionally been condescending, all of which has been upsetting. Again, I really am sorry for any rudeness. In the interest of completeness, I'll give a last response to the other points. I don't know what you're saying about misinterpreting, but I'm unaware of anything that says Hoid heals because of the Dawnshard. I think both our points are moot on this because healing mechanics are quite nebulous and we don't have much insight into who can do what why. I also should have done a better job breaking up my different statements, I think I caused some confusion. You haven't shown me anything I don't already know. In my theory, Spiritual Division explains why Shardblades (but not any spren in godmetal form) effortlessly separates matter; the matter vaporisation thing is how the Blades do this without having a width of absolute zero. It wouldn't be the first magic in the Cosmere to have additional minor effects to make it practical. Anyway, as a parting gift, here's a WOB about the Elantris weirdness that I've referred to previously: Haha yeah, sorry, I got a bit grouchy.

Or it's the Surge of Transformation which is based on a natural phenomenon. I'm not arguing that these forces are unique to Roshar. Do you read what I write? Again, you don't know how Hoid can heal, it could be due to an unknown kind of magic he's collected, or his mysterious pact with the 16 Shards, or his Dawnshard. I was referring to Renarin with the lifelong neurological condition, but according to you he doesn't see himself as how he's always been. Progression doesn't grow people, just plants and carapace. Anyway, I'm trying to argue that Radiant healing is a specially designed feature, or at least a consciously developed one. I know it's an explanation of the Blade cutting; it was needed because the width of the blade would have made cutting through stone (or cheese) impossible otherwise. Spiritual Division would be the breaking/downgrading of Connection. No it wasn't mentioned, that's why this is a theory. Some of the stuff you've said has never been mentioned. Again, I have told you I am talking about Rosharan Surge-based magic, stop straw-manning me. Nalthian Shardblades use a completely different magic system, but are based off the same or similar principles, you know, the ones you keep dragging up. Also, I wouldn't exactly say that Nightblood cuts. Riiiight, and you know where the line is drawn, how? You seem to have decided to not entertain my idea based on an arbitrary determination about where the Surges no longer apply, which is bafflingly at the spren which grant them and the Investiture of the Shard which created them. So, I will just say what you don't want to: we don't know if I'm right, we don't know if you're right, and that's fine. I'm sorry if I'm being curt with you, but you seem to have a habit of tediously arguing digressive points.