IlstrawberrySeed Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 We know that Preservation and Ruin (stasis and entropy) are opposites, and I'm trying to figure out the likely opposites for others. First a list. Ambition Autonomy Cultivation Devotion Dominion Endowment Honor Invention Mercy Odium Valor Whimsy (Unknown) (Unknown) Some possible pairings. Ambition and Whimsy? Autonomy and Dominion or Honor Cultivation and Whimsy, Endowment, or Invention Devotion and Dominion or Odium Dominion and Autonomy or Cultivation Endowment and (unknown) or Cultivation Honor and Autonomy or Endowment Invention and Endowment or Whimsy. Mercy and Odium or Whimsy Odium and Mercy or Whimsy Valor and (unknown) Whimsy and Ambition or Cultivation. I tried to keep pairings to the 2 most likely, and afterwords highlighted matches and misses. I don't need these to be canon, but rather ones that make sense and are likely to be canon.
alder24 Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: We know that Preservation and Ruin (stasis and entropy) are opposites, and I'm trying to figure out the likely opposites for others. Most Shards don't have directly opposing Shard like Ruin and Preservation. There are some pairs that can be done, like Devotion+Dominion, Devotion+Odium, Honor+Odium, or even Preservation+Cultivation but which one is the true pair for those fitting multiple others, and what about less obvious Shards? Spoiler Shardbound Do all Shards have a direct paired opposite intent... Brandon Sanderson No, I would say no, they do not all have a directly paired opposite intent. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Chaos (paraphrased) Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation. Questioner (paraphrased) Why were Ruin and Preservation linked together? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Because they're such perfect opposites. Basically it's just an opposites attract thing. Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010) Spoiler Questioner What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson There are several that could be considered opposites-- Questioner I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to? Brandon Sanderson Oh, which one would want to join with him? Questioner Or any of them. Brandon Sanderson I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...] Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Spoiler Jason Paas Are Odium and Devotion opposites? Brandon Sanderson One could make that argument. General Twitter 2016 (Feb. 1, 2016) It will be hard to find pairings when some do not have them. What do you try to do with those pairs? 2
IlstrawberrySeed Posted June 7, 2023 Author Posted June 7, 2023 I'm making a cortex game, and want the values to be paired shards. I want the one with more positive connotation as the actual title, but want to suggest the similar-but-opposite to be valued at the inverse die size. Also, I don't think that Pres/Ruin is a great example of opposites because of how perfectly opposite they are. I suspect less perfect opposites can be found. I'm quite positive that it's possible to come up with a pairing that will work.
in Truth,watcher of tv he/him Posted June 10, 2023 Posted June 10, 2023 The way I see it, the Shards do have pairs but many of them are more like counterparts rather than opposites. So, my list is: Honour/Autonomy= rules and responsibility vs rule bending individualism Endowment/Mercy= granting vs relieving Cultivation/Whimsy= planned change vs arbitrary change Odium/Valour= punishment vs reward Devotion/Dominion= to be affected vs to affect Ambition/speculated wisdom Shard= considering vs acting (or something)
Argenti he/him Posted June 10, 2023 Posted June 10, 2023 The thing is, the shards don't just have one oppisite, even preservation could be argued to be opposed to cultivation and ruin. DND are opposed, but so is Dominion and Autonomy. So you can't just pick one, because both are equally valid.
AnxietyShard Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) I’ve spend the better part of two hours researching all of the synonyms and antonyms of the shards definitions and thinking about how they could be paired but I feel fairly confident with this list. Dominion (Control) vs Autonomy (Freedom) Odium (Hate) vs Devotion (Love) Ruin (Destroy) vs Cultivation (Create) Ambition (Purpose) vs Whimsy (No purpose) Preservation (Keep Old) vs Invention (Create New) Honor (Keeps Word) vs Mercy (Forgives Regardless of Broken Word) Valor (Bravery) vs Anxiety (Cowardice - the shard that wants to hide) Endowment (Give) vs Depletion (Take) Edited June 11, 2023 by AnxietyShard 1
alder24 Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 9 hours ago, AnxietyShard said: I’ve spend the better part of two hours researching all of the synonyms and antonyms of the shards definitions and thinking about how they could be paired but I feel fairly confident with this list. Dominion (Control) vs Autonomy (Freedom) Odium (Hate) vs Devotion (Love) Ruin (Destroy) vs Cultivation (Create) Ambition (Purpose) vs Whimsy (No purpose) Preservation (Keep Old) vs Invention (Create New) Honor (Keeps Word) vs Mercy (Forgives Regardless of Broken Word) Valor (Bravery) vs Anxiety (Cowardice - the shard that wants to hide) Endowment (Give) vs Depletion (Take) Welcome to the Shard. Looks quite good, but Cultivation isn't about creation, it's about change. Cultivation isn't the opposite of Ruin, they're both very close to each other's intent, as they are both about change. Spoiler Autarchk If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now? Brandon Sanderson They were two shards. Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it. Nepene I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people. Brandon Sanderson Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view. That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else. General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013) Then the Survival Shard's intent isn't that directly related. It's smart to know to keep its distance, and it's intent might be closer to Wisdom or Prudence: Spoiler Seonid I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't-- Brandon Sanderson Right. Seonid --out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that? Brandon Sanderson The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there. Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016) Spoiler Paleo (paraphrased) Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important. Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Spoiler Paleo In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go? Brandon Sanderson Over time. Paleo Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Paleo And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close? Brandon Sanderson Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) Spoiler Paleo All right, regarding the 'Wisdom Shard' again. We have one quote where Hoid... I'll just cite it: "Some men, as they age, grow wiser. I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes." Is he referring to that Shard there... or the Vessel? Brandon Sanderson *thumbs up, grins* ... Yes. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)
IlstrawberrySeed Posted June 12, 2023 Author Posted June 12, 2023 On 6/10/2023 at 4:16 AM, in Truth,watcher of tv said: The way I see it, the Shards do have pairs but many of them are more like counterparts rather than opposites. So, my list is: Honour/Autonomy= rules and responsibility vs rule bending individualism Endowment/Mercy= granting vs relieving Cultivation/Whimsy= planned change vs arbitrary change Odium/Valour= punishment vs reward Devotion/Dominion= to be affected vs to affect Ambition/speculated wisdom Shard= considering vs acting (or something) I like mercy as endowmnets opposite, but I still think mercy fits better with odium and endowment's is one of the mystery shards or named but not intent-ed shards like invention. On 6/10/2023 at 2:06 PM, Argenti said: The thing is, the shards don't just have one oppisite, even preservation could be argued to be opposed to cultivation and ruin. DND are opposed, but so is Dominion and Autonomy. So you can't just pick one, because both are equally valid. I understand that. For a TTRPG, I would like to try to get the best segments together. On 6/10/2023 at 7:55 PM, AnxietyShard said: I’ve spend the better part of two hours researching all of the synonyms and antonyms of the shards definitions and thinking about how they could be paired but I feel fairly confident with this list. Dominion (Control) vs Autonomy (Freedom) Odium (Hate) vs Devotion (Love) Ruin (Destroy) vs Cultivation (Create) Ambition (Purpose) vs Whimsy (No purpose) Preservation (Keep Old) vs Invention (Create New) Honor (Keeps Word) vs Mercy (Forgives Regardless of Broken Word) Valor (Bravery) vs Anxiety (Cowardice - the shard that wants to hide) Endowment (Give) vs Depletion (Take) The issue with these is that names aren't intent. We actually know little about many of the shards intents, only their names, but we know that pres is more stasis like Lego Moviem and ruin is more entropy than destruction (though it does lean that way). Aditionally, while honor is about the word, the typical "Honor" is a mix of trustworthyness and morals. And as alder said, Cultivation isn't creation, but actually guided growth, such as through trimming for plants. All of these seem to be tangental to the typical definition of the word, which is part of why it's hard to pick opposites. However, I do like VvA, but I doubt anxiety is one of the large shards. Keep in mind that if you mix every intent, etc, of a person together, you get what the 16 shards together are, and you can split the 16 shards into more fundamnetal pieces. Ruin might split into destruction, chaos, and assimilation. (I stuggled to come up with a third, that's more likely dominion based on name alone.) On 6/11/2023 at 5:20 AM, alder24 said: Welcome to the Shard. Looks quite good, but Cultivation isn't about creation, it's about change. Cultivation isn't the opposite of Ruin, they're both very close to each other's intent, as they are both about change. Hide contents Autarchk If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now? Brandon Sanderson They were two shards. Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it. Nepene I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people. Brandon Sanderson Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view. That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else. General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013) Then the Survival Shard's intent isn't that directly related. It's smart to know to keep its distance, and it's intent might be closer to Wisdom or Prudence: Hide contents Seonid I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't-- Brandon Sanderson Right. Seonid --out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that? Brandon Sanderson The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there. Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016) Hide contents Paleo (paraphrased) Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important. Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Hide contents Paleo In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go? Brandon Sanderson Over time. Paleo Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Paleo And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close? Brandon Sanderson Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) Hide contents Paleo All right, regarding the 'Wisdom Shard' again. We have one quote where Hoid... I'll just cite it: "Some men, as they age, grow wiser. I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes." Is he referring to that Shard there... or the Vessel? Brandon Sanderson *thumbs up, grins* ... Yes. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) I'll keep this in mind for wisdom/prudence. My guess is that wisdom is actually the intent, not the name or vessel. Thanks to all of you.
The Stick Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 I have never loved the idea of forced pairing of many of the Shards simply because the Intents are so complex no pairing can be fully accurate. Are Preservation and Ruin opposites? At first glance they are, but then you start to see the deeper Intent. Can Preservation preserve something without Ruining something else. We know he approved of TLR crushing tech advancements to preserve. Is this not him Ruining new inventions. When Ruin destroys a person, is he not preserving what the person he killed would have destroyed if they had lived. I simply feel like no Shards are true opposites once you think deeply about the Intent. 1
IlstrawberrySeed Posted June 16, 2023 Author Posted June 16, 2023 4 hours ago, The Stick said: I have never loved the idea of forced pairing of many of the Shards simply because the Intents are so complex no pairing can be fully accurate. Are Preservation and Ruin opposites? At first glance they are, but then you start to see the deeper Intent. Can Preservation preserve something without Ruining something else. We know he approved of TLR crushing tech advancements to preserve. Is this not him Ruining new inventions. When Ruin destroys a person, is he not preserving what the person he killed would have destroyed if they had lived. I simply feel like no Shards are true opposites once you think deeply about the Intent. This is valid, but I'm doing this for a specific purpose in mind, (posted above), so it isn't really an argument against trying, like it could have been if I was actually curious.
The Stick Posted June 16, 2023 Posted June 16, 2023 I do see what you were trying to do. Besides Preservation and Ruin, I would say the only other pairing I could see is Dominion and Autonomy. Besides those, I do not see a super strong correlation.
Argenti he/him Posted June 16, 2023 Posted June 16, 2023 On 6/11/2023 at 8:20 AM, alder24 said: Looks quite good, but Cultivation isn't about creation, it's about change. Cultivation isn't the opposite of Ruin, they're both very close to each other's intent, as they are both about change. You could say Positive vs Negative change
alder24 Posted June 16, 2023 Posted June 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Argenti said: You could say Positive vs Negative change Is Cultivation all about positive change? Odium thinks otherwise. She cultivated Dalinar who was at high risk of falling into Odium's hands, which would result in very negative change. Even Cultivation said "all things must be cultivated". OB ch 114: Quote IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS. YET, ALL THINGS MUST BE CULTIVATED. WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST. IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS. YOU WERE ALWAYS BOUND TO COME TO ME. I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED. THAT INCLUDES THE THORNS. OB ch 57 Quote Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares. The pain of men is nothing to her.
Frustration Posted June 16, 2023 Posted June 16, 2023 Preservation and Ruin are not naturally such opposites but rather they polarized over time. Spoiler Argent (paraphrased) Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If similar thing happened on another world, similar coloring effect could happen. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3031 Now there was some opposition to start with, but it wasn't as pronounced. 2
Argenti he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 7 hours ago, alder24 said: Is Cultivation all about positive change? Odium thinks otherwise. She cultivated Dalinar who was at high risk of falling into Odium's hands, which would result in very negative change. Even Cultivation said "all things must be cultivated". OB ch 114: Quote When I say positive, I don't mean good. I mean more. Cultivation want things to increase, to grow. If Dalinar fell into Odium's hands, Dalinar would be more than he was when he came to her, a broken sad man. Ruin wants thing to be less, to decay. I imagine Ruin as subtraction while Cultivation is addition, both are opposed to preservation, who is the equal sign.
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