dvoraen

It's noteworthy because aluminum is typically a counteracting agent to forms of Investiture, yet Investiture (through Soulcasting) can create it in spite of that property.

This idea really paints a different spin on the purpose of the Releasers/Dustbringers, and why Division is one of the Surges. I hadn't even thought of it like this before. +1

In a sense, yes, but I think it goes deeper than that. The Ars Arcanum is pretty clear that Lightweavers veer strongly towards the Spiritual in what they do, and we haven't had a reason to doubt its contents, so it stands to reason that they have a more supernatural aspect to "spiritual sustenance". Morale boosting is surely part of it, but I think it's closer to bolstering Determination and other things, and I use the capital on purpose. Someone trick answers from Brandon about the names of all the Spiritual attributes, please. >_>

To my recollection, he's only confirmed that Shallan is 4/5, but hasn't specified what exactly steps two and three were that she took. As to Shallan's final step, I think all the earmarks are there for it being her remembrance of the events that led to the attempt on her life by her mother. I think Shallan is repressing quite a bit from those days. Something happened in her past, something that caused her to start wishing her life was something else ("dreams that became real"), something that made her start to build a facade and thereby attracting the attention of a Cryptic. I wager that something is the truth about her mother. The one thing I can't guess is how, when, and why Shallan invoked the First Ideal. The closest we've gotten to her discussing it is Pattern reminding her about it, and Shallan immediately repressing it.

I don't think it's Dalinar, since the Death Rattles are supposedly precognition at work, meaning the future. Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher some time ago, presumably just before Roshone ended up at Hearthstone. As to Dai-gonarthis being one of the Unmade, I would say yes for one reason: emotional destruction. To put it in terms of other works, this Death Rattle makes it sound like Dai-gonarthis is akin to a dementor, which is to say feeds off and/or induces negative emotion. Destroying your hope, prolonging your grief, doing anything to keep you from standing up and fighting, that's what this Death Rattle implies. Plus: Lightweavers would directly oppose this with what they can do ("spiritual sustenance", as we've seen with Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms). Desolations don't appear to be just about which Radiant uses his or her Shardblade the best. If the Unmade represent destruction in all its forms, that means body, mind, and soul are all going to war and liable to be attacked by the opposition. (This is why I think Decayform isn't necessarily about melting people's bodies so much as their will to fight.)

And here's where I drive-by with my (probably unlikely) headturner:

That reminds me. Has anyone asked him if the Roshar women's script is meant to resemble waveforms, or was it strictly creative license by the artist?

This leads me to wondering one thing: - Would Marsh have heard the same things from his actions in The Hero of Ages? (I'm getting at whether it has to do with Spiritually damaging someone or not, as Hemalurgy and Shardblades both do.)

I'm probably obsessed with this idea, but I do think there's one point not really accounted for: - How much influence are the Unmade having on the once Heralds? There has been quite a bit of implication that the Honorblades, besides granting Surge pairs, go above-and-beyond what the spren chose to imitate. The Prelude with Kalak's POV corroborates this, and "Taln's", if we assume he's the real one. Between whatever the Gift is, in addition to the fact that the Honorblades show nothing of their elaborate and beautiful designs (more on this in a sec), it's clear that the Heralds had something else going on for them beyond simply having access to their two Surges. What does this have to do with the Unmade? I'm getting there, but first: "I'm worried about Ash." ... "She's getting worse. We weren't supposed to get worse." Why would they need to worry about "getting worse" unless they're being affected by something? This implies that the Heralds previously were not, again suggestive of some form of protection they no longer have. Note also, that this observation of 'getting worse' happened to transpire exactly six years ago, which is when the initial candidates were being chosen for Nahel bonds. Jasnah had her pronounced experience right before that overheard conversation, and this is also the time period Shallan had it occur as well*, which is also identified by Taravangian as when Moelach's Death Rattles began. Between the presumed Heralds 'getting worse', and a sudden change in certain supernatural events, I think it's safe to say that the Listeners' gods -- who I think are pretty clearly the Unmade -- were starting to stir, and thereby plucking at people more so than they would in the past**. We have both WoB (about Shallan's father) and even a direct Hoid statement (to Shallan***) that people on Roshar can be affected to take a darker -- dare I say more destructive? -- mindset on matters, to say nothing of what the Thrill does to people. It stands to reason, therefore, that if something is happening to the Heralds, enough so that it's observable and a concern to at least one of them, then it stands to reason that they are likely being targetted by this. After all, 'the enemy' would surely know who they are, what they represent, and very much want to get them out of the way of being a threat. How better to do that than to corrupt them into doing the enemy's work while making it seem their own idea? Odium may not be able to do so directly (because of the Oathpact, perhaps), but he does have Splinters of his Shard on Roshar (the Unmade) that undoubtedly could do that for him... especially if the Heralds had rescinded each and every bond to their Honorblades that gave them that extra bit of advantage. So do I think Nale's crazy? Yes and no. I think he's going down a similar path that Shalash is, but "meting out Justice" in a more twisted way. I think that this nudging towards the Dark Side, so to speak, is what's really going on, and then he just kept on going because the strings had been attached on account of no longer being bound to the Oathpact's protective aspect. And I do think there is evidence that the Heralds had that and more going for them. Their extended lifespans are only part of that. The real question is what did Nale and the others really do to themselves when they foreswore their oaths? * She states she's seventeen to Sebarial, and her flashback identifies her as eleven years when her mother died, which pinpoints her learning to Lightweave as the same era as the other original candidates (she hadn't done it for a long time before her mother's death). ** I'd give a great deal to know how active they were during non-Desolation periods, or if they mostly slumbered. *** He states what Shallan is fighting isn't completely natural. It's debatable how natural the Shard Odium is in general, but either way it's pretty clear that something supernatural is going on with her father, and so far only the Unmade really fall into the category of "direct supernatural antagonist", as shown by Nohadon's in-passing statement regarding Yelig-nar.

It's very unlikely that Shardplate is made of (Nahel) spren in the way a Blade is. Recall that Kaladin used a Shardplate helm similarly to a cestus during the 4-vs-Adolin duel and heard not a thing from touching it. Is it possible a spren is involved in its forging? I think yes. The real question is whether a Nahel spren's "close cousins" (e.g. windspren are to honorspren) willingly change into Plate to be used, and the change is permanent. The other question to bake your noodle is: which Cognitive entity made the Oathgate locks? Shallan believes it's the same substance as a Shardblade, and so far there's only one source for that.

This is my general take on the Diagram as well, except for one thing: Taravangian was the primary author, but his complete lack of compassion on that day opened him up to suggestions via Odium (or the Unmade?), who was (were) the secondary authors. The whole thing with the Diagram makes me think of the Terris prophecies in Mistborn Era 1, which is to say manipulation buried within it. If you go through every epigraph from the Diagram, there's a definitive change in tone on certain ones. Some of them explicitly have instructions, and privileged knowledge on top of that: - Identifying potential Radiants, and how a Nahel bonded individual could potentially develop further. How would anyone alive know this for a fact, save for a Herald? - Don't mind the Unmade; they're interesting but not important compared to kingship, even though they're Splinters of the antagonistic Shard. - Moelach, the Death Rattles, and precognition of the future. "Their words might save us." ... Or are really giving the enemy an advantage on what is going to happen. I'd be very surprised if Moelach wasn't aware of each and every Death Rattle given, and what was said and (more importantly) witnessed by the deceased. - "Hold the secret that broke the Knight's Radiant." Again, how would anyone know this? More relevantly, why would anyone WANT to destroy the future orders when they return, since the spren are still heeding to the restrictions placed on the Nahel bond's development? If Surgebinders were unrestricted as they once were, I could see this, but since they're still required to develop their Oaths/truths/other, the order to remove them from the game (again) is highly suspect. - The instruction about Dalinar, but more importantly preventing Alethkar from solidifying its power. Alethkar, which was once the country specializing in war and the one that kept vigil for signs of a Desolation; the one country in which the Radiants primarily lived. Nothing important to see here! I think you get the point. The Diagram reeks of tampering.

Here's a random thought that just hit me: Since Roshar is more Cognitively bound (Surgebinder interaction with Shadesmar, Listeners, spren, and so on), could it be that Cognitive perception greatly enhances an interaction with Investiture on Roshar? To put it in terms with gemstones, what I'm getting at is that a "more perfect" cut (as it's perceived by people) means it's "more perfect" at holding Stormlight / Investiture.

With Lightweavers, I think it's all tied to Connection. Shallan's Memory taking is establishing Connection to a person, place, event, and so forth, which would explain why she thinks she was drawing Yalb; she'd taken a Memory of him before, during The Way of Kings, so she has a small "Connection" to him. As the Nahel bond emulates the bond between a Herald and his or her Honorblade, I think there may be a touch of Connection to a given Herald as well that comes along for free, which would explain why she's also depicting someone who is presumably Shalash. Either way, it's been shown in other works (being vague for recent work spoiler reasons) that Connection can allow one to bypass certain Physical and/or Cognitive limits. This is why I think what Shallan (and Lightweavers in general) are tied very strongly to this particular attribute, which is probably due to Illumination in general. (I am insinuating that I believe Truthwatchers also utilize Connection a lot, but more on a Spiritual level, whereas Lightweavers are more Cognitive in how they acquire it.)

I'm not sure exactly what you meant here. At the minimum, we have six names that are likely to all be Unmade, and we don't know hardly anything about any of them except DANGER, WILL ROBINSON: Yelig-nar Re'Shephir Dai'gonarthis Moelach Nergaoul Sja'anat

As far as the number of (named) Unmade go, I'd really like to know if it's six, because Heralds + Unmade would then be sixteen. The other major question I hope gets answered is whether Odium-sourced spren are erroneously referred to as part of the Unmade, and vice-versa.

I'll work on that. The more I think about it, the more I need to find a scanner and draw a few pictures, because that seems to be working better than words. >_> Thank you for the advice; this is why I hated research papers so much. It always took me three or four tries to achieve clarity. RE: Second bolded. Tapping the source of the power that is provided by burning steel, in a nutshell.

I personally think that an attempt to make a Hemalurgic spike from a spren-bonded human would require a VERY precise Spiritual sight. Why? You'd have to spike the Spiritual location of where the bond is for it to be stolen, is my thought. The epigraphs about the Nahel bond itself sort of suggest ("bond's placement") that each one is in a different Spiritual and/or Cognitive spot based on the spren bonding you. The other point about Intent is also the one I agree with; they were just trying to kill her, not become like her.

The idea is more that using Feruchemical tapping to actively use the Allomantically-provided power is the catalytic reaction to increase its throughput. The power is the cesium, the tapping is the water, so to speak. The Allomantic burning rate is unchanged, much as you tapping a metalmind is up to you how fast you want to go through the power Invested in the metalmind -- in the end you still control the rate of depletion of the metalmind's power or the actively burning metal as normal. The same applies to Compounding a metalmind's storage: you still have active control over how much and how quickly you go through it. Burning steel by itself doesn't do anything (aside from the lines) unless you Intend* to Push on them. It just gives you access to that power. So I was thinking if you Feruchemically tap that power you're accessing by burning the metal, as you would Feruchemically tap the power in a normally Invested metalmind, would that be the reaction that causes the vast increase in output? I'm thinking I'm doing a poor job of explaining this, and that's partly because I can't think of a proper term for what's in my head. The general idea is that I think Allomancy and Feruchemy are both a two-step process. For Feruchemy: debilitate one attribute in yourself by storing/Investing it into a metalmind; later, you can draw on that Investment by tapping said metalmind. For Allomancy, you 'burn' the metal (Investing yourself with that power while you do and supplies last), and then you actively use it with Intent. I'm kind of saying that people have been doing both almost at once this whole time; the Ars Arcanum does refer to Allomancy as an 'instinctive' art, so it would make sense (particularly in the case of pewter) that you'd want to use it as soon as you access its power by burning it. So as far as what I'm proposing is concerned: for Compounding Allomancy, you still burn the metal to gain the power to do whatever, but you Feruchemically tap that power** as part of your Intent to use it, and thereby Compound it. (It's weird, I know. I think I need to just make a jpg of this or something, I think.) * Capital intentional. ** To use steel some more. You burn the metal, gaining access to the "attribute" of being able to Push metal and seeing metal sources. You tap that "attribute" to see and Push steel, and this causes it to Compound its effect.

RE: Bolded. This isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the metal is burned and thereby accesses the power provided by that particular metal, and the power itself - what the Allomancer is providing by burning the metal (and he or she has to be burning it) - is what is Feruchemically tapped, as if it were a metalmind. I use the term reserve because it's very clear, quantitatively, just how much potential Allomantic power is available, depending on what metal it is, flaring the metal during burning, and so forth. Burning the metal opens the gate to the 'reserve' I speak of, which is then Feruchemically tapped as if it were an attribute stored in a metalmind. As far as the 'Why not?' goes, I concede the point there as far as proof goes, but my intention behind saying that in the first place, is that until anyone on Team Brandon actually says 'this doesn't work', it's as much a possibility as anything else discussed that hasn't been proven. We are discussing something completely fictional, after all. I tend to shut up about real life matters.

Now that I've finally found this thread via search, imagine my surprise that my thoughts on Compounding Allomancy hadn't been uttered. (I'm really hoping I'm not wrong about that, because I had a hard time finding a thread discussing this topic in detail, so I likely missed posts on the subject that could very well have said all this already. >_>) Basically, I think all this focus on metalminds as the vector for Compounding an Allomantic effect are slightly off target, and that the process is very simple, yet not entirely intuitive in its way. Before I get into why, however, I'm going to start at the beginning and be a little pedantic: Compounding Feruchemy - The Twinborn* stores into their metalmind the appropriate attribute. For the purposes of this post, let's just go with Steel, therefore speed is what was stored. - Allomantically burning the metalmind catalyzes the reaction ten-fold, in that the Invested metal produces a significantly greater effect when directly used as the fuel, much as normal Allomantic metals are the catalyst for beginning the Investiture in question. For our Twinborn, that's a considerably higher rate of speed that's possible. - The abridged version: the Feruchemist generates the desired effect (speed) and creates a reserve of it in the Allomancy-viable metal. Allomancy then burns the metal and in-so-doing catalyzes this reserve, which increases its strength. The key point is that the source ability is from using Feruchemy in a normal fashion, and it's released with the other discipline in a 'normal' fashion (burning the metal). It's my current belief that the process to Compound an Allomantic ability is almost directly vice-versa. Compounding Allomancy - The Twinborn burns steel, generating the blue lines and Push effect. - Feruchemy 'taps' this power generated by the Allomancy as if it were an Invested metalmind. The burning of steel provides the power; the tapping of that power provided by burning the metal is what provides the Compounding effect. Why do I think this works? When a metal is Invested as a metalmind, it doesn't change the fact that it's still the same metal. The difference is that the Feruchemy gave it an Invested property that "only" Feruchemy typically uses. Instead of tapping that reserve via Feruchemy, the metal is instead burned via Allomancy, and in so doing causes a reaction that boosts the power output significantly. Instead of getting the normal effect from burning the metal, the stored Feruchemical attribute is the effect (it "overrides" the metal's normal burning effect). On the other hand, Allomancy burns a metal and provides access to the relevant power. While the metal lasts and/or isn't fully metabolized, it's still a reserve that the Allomancer can access; it's very clear that an Allomancer has a reserve of power available, despite the fact it's "just metal" within him or her. My point is that once the Allomancer accesses that reserve, I believe Feruchemy can tap that Allomantically-generated reserve to provide the Compounding effect. Why? My response is: 'Why not?' It taps the reserves inside a metalmind just fine; Feruchemy doesn't consume the metal, only the Invested property within. This is the same thing, except that it's the burning of an Allomantic metal is creating the reserve to be tapped right then and there, rather than Feruchemically creating one over time. It's also a finite process, much like Compounding a metalmind is, and I think it's even more limited since this process would likely require frequent consumption of metal to sustain. So on to the other point: why hasn't anyone figured this out yet? Because everyone assumes a metalmind has to be directly Invested metal. They "have to be told" that it works, or else it doesn't (leaving it at that because of BoM spoilers). They're focusing on the fact that you "have to have a metalmind" containing an attribute to Feruchemically tap its contents. They're not looking at the fact that Feruchemy isn't so much tapping the metalmind so much as only what's contained within it. The difference is that Allomancy is creating the "metalmind reserve" for Feruchemy to tap; the mixture of powers then makes Nice Things Happen. In other words, I don't think anyone's ventured outside the metal box yet, insofar as discovering Allomantic Compounding goes. * Using same-metal Twinborn just for simplicity's sake. We're also ignoring Hemalurgy for obvious reasons.

Honestly, with regards to the idea of Steris having an Allomantic ability, I'd rather see her conscripted into the nicrosil and aluminum Ferring research. If she can't come up with test cases and theories, I don't know who could do better. (PS - She should totally be an Aluminum Gnat, because for some reason I keep picturing her coming up with lists that would actually make it useful.)

I agree with this too! I definitely think you're correct that having a surplus of Identity can protect you against non-Physical alteration, as it were. I also wonder if, by extension, it basically makes you immune to Rioting and Soothing, amongst other things. I've been ruminating on the idea of Compounding aluminum lately, and to be honest I had the weirdest thought: Does Compounding Aluminum basically allow you to "encrypt" a metalmind you're filling during the process so it is you, and only you (in the cosmere), who can later tap it? The point being, if there are gradations to burning copper and bronze, for example, then surely there are gradations to Identity. So instead of someone "mimicking" your Identity somehow, they have to REALLY up the quotient to get to your stuff. I'm probably on the wrong track, since having no Identity can hypothetically give you access to someone else's metalmind, but it did make me wonder if it worked the other way too. Like having a Spiritual fingerprint scanner, except only the original can provide the correct one (instead of a partial, so to speak).

, by Globus. Every time. It's because of almost the entire lyrics.

Everyone's pretty much said my thoughts on Dalinar at this point, so I can only curse and swear that this flashback puts a big dampener on my speculation about Nergaoul at the minimum. If he/she/it was able to influence things even that long ago, then it's pretty clear that the Unmade aren't necessarily absent from Roshar outside a Desolation as I was starting to wonder. Hmf.

I was thinking that it was more that Shallan intended (key word) to use the Shardblade, which in her case means calling upon the bond. Because of that intention, and lack of general training, it brought the Soulcast along as a package deal as it were, or perhaps Pattern managed to assert himself in a way that caused Shallan to Soulcast, much like how Jasnah ended up in Shadesmar with Ivory, that first time in WoR's prologue, as if he had somehow managed to pull her into there despite Jasnah not knowing a thing about Elsecalling or Soulcasting.