dvoraen

This was the point I was going to raise. Autonomy en masse is a rather chaotic thing to encourage, to use the D&D definition for chaotic. Everyone is potentially getting in everyone's way... not exactly the trend of pacifism and hands-off. I'm definitely in agreement about why Autonomy is alone (rimshot?) on that particular world. @DSC01 & Hypatia: We also don't know how many of the original 16 were in communication with each other before going their separate ways and ending up on their respective worlds, not counting Odium since he's actively seeking out the others to Splinter them. My point being, who knows what information they shared with each other about their new powers and Investments before finally "settling down"? I'm kind of fumbling along the lines of other Shards likely knowing how to fashion and use Hemalurgy (Invested metal in general?) against Shards in ways that wouldn't necessarily be known to newer holders such as Harmony despite Harmony's Ruin Shard being the source of that manifestation of Investiture. To use a more real world example: one navigator might not know how to use the sextant the other has, but that doesn't mean they can't navigate using the same general reference points (sun, stars, etc.). The method would differ, but they're still using the same general principle to get to the same place. One just would be better at it, because that one has the tool and knowledge (the Shard), while the other just has the general theory (the above-mentioned collaboration and info sharing*). Does that make sense? * I'm also wondering lately just how much being aware of the Spiritual Realm is involved, even though Shards technically transcend all of the realms (presumably since they're primal forces of creation). Truth, even abstract, is a powerful thing to have.

Based on this, combined with the tidbit (tidboulder?) about Elend, Vin, and the Spiritual Realm touching, I'm wondering if the visions are more a facet of having the ability to see into the Spiritual Realm. In other words, Truthwatchers have Spiritual clairvoyance, for lack of a better description?

Bleh, I forgot that bit about atium. I was thinking it stole only a specific subset rather than be a wild card too. (All of my Mistborn series books are still in moving boxes, so I don't have the exact quotes on hand that are related to what I was trying to say.) At the time I wrote that post, though, my line of thinking was spiritual DNA versus the building blocks of it ("spiritual cytosine" et al, if that makes sense). One is more ... primal? than the other. Stealing the capability for using the power versus stealing the power itself, much like how people siphon off electricity or your unprotected wireless internet and can use each as normal, but at the end of the day the owner can still use it if at a potentially reduced capability or capacity. Does that make sense, or am I just fumbling around it some more? It's not a huge distinction; I'm trying to prod at the subtlety and not doing very well.

I haven't read the book yet, so I'm acting on considerable ignorance here, especially context, but... Why not simply stealing Investiture itself? A more generic steal of power, rather than certain specifics as with a bronze spike magnifying bronze Allomancy, for example. In other words, if Nicrosil Feruchemy can store Investiture, there could easily be a hypothetical Hemalurgic spike that can steal Investiture, which (correct me if I'm wrong) could hypothetically bestow the ability in general (less spikes overall, if not necessarily bestowing a lot of strength in the stolen magic). It would also fit into Autonomy (the definition of the word) as it would increase self-reliance to have such a spike.

Or it's something like an unpopulated moon of a planet: it only exists in the Cognitive Realm because people perceive the moon from the planet, and thereby create(?)* the Cognitive form of it, but nothing on the moon itself would have a Cognitive aspect aside from: "It's there." Therefore, wasteland of nothing. * Unsure about this choice of wording, but it's the best I've got.

What is hatred, then, if not a lack of compassion for what is hated? (Yes, I deliberately worded it this way. I'm insinuating that somebody was heavily nudged on the 'Day of the Diagram' because he was completely vulnerable due to his complete absence of compassion and empathy for... anything. The Diagram has way too much privileged information, for starters, in addition to how the tone of its instructions varies, as if multiple sapient entities had a hand in it.)

Regarding Mr. T telling Szeth, I was always under the impression that it was a lie he concocted for the sole purpose of preventing Szeth from questioning how someone -- Kaladin, in this case -- was Surgebinding that was not Szeth. "It is the only explanation." /jedihandwave

While I personally agree with this thread's subject line, that the Bondsmiths had to do with how the Listeners ended up in 'slaveform', we aren't given much information as to exactly how this came about. There may be an implication that the tertiary ability the Bondsmiths get is the ability to rapidly undo if not also form bonds (I'm referring to Dalinar sensing the Shardblade he gave up was unbound 'instantly' when it was supposed to take concentration and focus on just that). The next major question is how they were able to accomplish this on a presumably worldwide basis -- though this may not necessarily be the case, as the death toll in a Desolation is extremely large. It also makes me wonder if the Bondsmiths oversaw inauguration of individuals into the Radiant Orders if they were eligible to be squire material, by "bonding" them to a given Knight so that they could serve as a squire immediately.

Deadpool. *drops mic*

RE: Odium's champion. Remember that Nightblood is on Roshar, so I think it's very much within the realm of possibility that Nightblood could "kill"/devour/depower the Unmade. This would be a huge setback to the point of possibly convincing Odium he could lose, especially if his Splinters (the Unmade) are permanently removed from events because Nightblood is a hungry hungry hippo.

So is this where I try, to a likely low degree of success, to convince you that being conditioned to think a way doesn't count as "the magic making you this way"? (I'm implying this is what was going on with Shallan's father. He was being nudged by the Unmade until he no longer needed the prompting to be a murderous bastard. The part I don't get is whether he really drew their eyes to him or if it's more a symptom of the closest Unmade's influence, which I still contend was Nergaoul acting upon him the entire time.)

Progression.

There needs to be more people like Dalinar, so seeing his struggle in attaining a -- dare I say -- Honor-filled* life is something our world could use a bit more of. And why I voted for him. * (Capital intentional. winkwink)

Don't make me get the chromium out.

I'm just saying that not all Surgebinders had to be, or necessarily could force their way to be royalty. Those with the Truthwatcher Surges, for example, aren't exactly the kind of Surgebinders who could force minions into line -- though note that I'm not saying ALL Surgebinders then with this pair would bend the neck to a ruler -- but this is just one example of a Surgebinder who could very easily be a chief advisor to a ruler. I think you read too much into what I was saying, or I was unclear, specifically the point where I said not all Surgebinders were necessarily royalty. Some could have been, or made people accept them as a ruler. My point was simply that of those who were royalty/warlords/top-dog, the percentage that were Surgebinders was less than 100%, in addition to the fact that not all the Surge pairs (let alone the spren that provided them) were necessarily conducive to elevating your position in society. I do agree that the lighteyes gradually took over after the Recreance, on account of "we have light eyes like Radiants, bow to us". I'm sure the Hierocracy and/or the Sunmaker helped here too.

Honestly, Investiture seems to have quite a few parallels to radiation poisoning (with addiction factors added in). Brandon has more than hinted at this.

I don't see how Surgebinders, pre-KR, were necessarily royalty. For one, we know very little of the state of the world when Nohadon was alive, let alone how many kingdoms even existed then. I think it's pretty clear the Silver Kingdoms came about after his time. Warlords who thought themselves rulers, and/or were Surgebinders, could very well be the situation as with Alakavish. I could easily see a Surgebinder with a Releaser's powers be a quick way to cause mischief. I don't include Skybreakers, despite Gravitation+Division, on account of the fact that they'd hypothetically have to attract a highspren to bond, which seems counterproductive to becoming a warmongering warlord/"ruler".

I'll wager the answer is word-of-mouth from the Heralds, previously (implied to be the case for Aharietiam). They seemed to know when they were supposed to go back, so there's clearly a condition for success/winning that they know.

And to throw in something else into the mix: If Nohadon really had walked to Urithiru, who's to say he didn't have a Gravitation fabrial (emulating a Windrunner Lashing) to literally walk up the cliff, because the face of it was down? It's a simple thing that could easily explain both the fact he had calloused feet (from his long travel plus stone traversal), in addition to 'walking to' Urithiru. In other words, he knew where it was geographically, because the maps Pattern was deducing the text on, were clear that Nohadon-Bajerden wanted the world cartographed.

Honestly, I'm thinking Nohadon had a substantially higher influence on Rosharan culture and development than in-world books and studies say. He was given a symmetrical name, implying that he was a "holy" man. Why would he be effectively christened as the equivalent of a Saint unless he made considerable contributions? To summarize what I'm suspicious of: Nohadon founded the Knights Radiant, and/or was instrumental in doing so. I say this because while "Taln" calls them "Ishar's Knights," that doesn't mean Ishar founded them single-handedly so much as acted as the Herald that kept an eye on them, in addition to limiting the spren via the Words their Surgebinder has to say, to prevent powerful Surgebinding from running rampant from the start (in other words, Ishar "nerfed" the Nahel bond). Nohadon ALSO founded Vorinism; he seemed bitter about Roshar forgetting about the Heralds yet again, implying they may well have said as such in his hearing or towards him. Vorinism would be a means of reminding Roshar's people that they really exist. Additionally, there has been substantial tampering to Vorinism over the years, and the subject of its founder doesn't really rear its head, that I recall. Most people probably assume the Heralds did, but (iirc) we are never explicitly told who founded it, only that the Heralds legitimized its "authority." The fact that the book he wrote survived to present day, despite being well over 4500 years old. Someone was deliberately making sure it did, which means that this individual or group venerated Nohadon's methodology.

I'd give a great deal to know Jasnah's true feelings about her brother, especially with respect to assassination attempts made against him.

Here's a weird(?) thought. Suppose the Unmade are Splinters in the sense that Divine Breaths are (it's more or less a special power Invested directly by the Shard's holder). However, since we're on Roshar, we know these Splinters generally take the form of spren. In other words, a Listener host completely consumed by an overwhelming force (the spren-Splinter) to the point that the body is all but a vessel for the Splinter which is what is really acting. So... possession, I guess is what that summarizes into? Alternatively, the ones that "can think" are just sentient forms of Splinters, given thought and "life" by personification from men in the same way the Stormfather is.

@Moogle: Plus the implication (in the songs) that the Unmade transformed the Listeners to better be able to exploit them; I'm not referring to how they can presumably force various (Void?) forms on the Listeners, but changed them to be able to do that. (Hmm, "unmade" the Listener race somewhat? ...)

Here's a completely from-nowhere thought that just struck me: Why not go for the archaic spelling of it? I'm not good with archaic Spanish by any metric, but using it in that form would also convey their considerable age, I would think. It's not a form that native speakers would necessarily know, but it is an easter egg that also distinguishes the Unmade as "ancient, evil spren", as Taravangian terms them. I also kind of like how (roughly) "Sinfacer" (or possibly "Sinfazer"*) sounds in place of "Sinhacer", so I'm biased. It MAY BE (>_>) a coincidence that it looks like "sin facer" too. A second thought I was wondering about: what was Unmade translated to in the Way of Kings epigraphs? I just suddenly realized that there is exactly one mention of them (Yelig-nar's epigraph), so that would have been translated there. * I skimmed Wikipedia on the subject of Old Castilian phonics, so by no means am I asserting this as correct.

There's also the fact that we don't know what the difference between Szeth and a Herald are, when it concerns using an Honorblade (assuming said Herald was properly bound to their Honorblade). It's been implied that the Heralds could do more with them, but exactly what we don't know. I do think it's safe to say that he was using Jezrien's Honorblade imperfectly, much as a Radiant's use of Stormlight is inefficient in the early stages of the Nahel bond's deployment.