dvoraen

One thing that I've been wondering about, though, is whether the fabrial equivalent of a Wheel of Time (sa')angreal exists. In other words, a device that enhances how powerful one's Surgebinding is, such that it could lay waste to a large scale area. I would imagine that at the minimum, a highstorm over the Plains was required in order to cause the effect (in other words, they consumed the storm's Investiture "charge" completely, rather than it dispersing over the continent to spheres as usual).

So long story short, I see the following happening for the finale of the first half, one of which I already mentioned in the thread I launched. 1) Cultivation will be Splintered and killed. 2) Dalinar's challenge to Odium is what will be the very last thing, where something like 'sounds of rumbling thunder' being the terminating line. We won't see what happens explicitly there; the flashbacks of the second half will be of that day when the challenge goes out, rather than Gavilar's assassination.

I always got the impression that the Releasers/Dustbringers were responsible for the Shattered Plains, myself. Plus, Kalak explicitly thinks that "the Dustbringers had done their work well" in the Prelude, though that could just have been an observation on the ruined area. We don't know where the Heralds placed their Honorblades, after all, only that the Shin secured them.

If the series were a movie, I'd have the below playing during the credits: Globus -- The Promise

I never claimed that he did receive an Honorblade, I just wasn't clear about that when I digressed. The thing I find most interesting, with respect to Dalinar anyway, is that he got the impression something was wrong with it even before he swore the First Ideal. I'm wondering if that's because he was chosen as the (second?) vessel for Honor's visions/'Epilogue'.

I don't think it is, simply because we also have WoB stating that an Honorblade gave Surgebinders enhanced (if the same) or additional Surges. Plus, in all the time Szeth used it, which could very well have been years, there wasn't any indication given that it was a danger to him. Syl may call an Honorblade 'dangerous', but I think that references to the fact that it bestows powers unconditionally upon the holder/binder of it. (This, of course, begs the question of why Dalinar got sick 'bonding' the Shardblade the man claiming to be Taln had. So far as I know, that's a unique happening, unless he lied about illness and was just keeping out of sight so he didn't have to carry the thing around as was implied when Renarin bonded the one he received from Adolin.)

Sure, which is why I bring her (Cultivation) up, but Jasnah's comment was horrifically broad as far as where Cultivation is worshipped. Presumably, it's as widespread (with permutations) in western Roshar as Honor's worship is in the east. Either way, I'm curious how the Shin integrate what they know about the Honorblades with this likely worship of a different Shardholder altogether.

I think we have an answer to this, specifically Jasnah's POV in WoR's Prologue. The exact case was when she grabbed the bead of the palace. I suspect it's possible, but it requires a lot of factors (and Stormlight) to do something that's on a grand physical scale.

Personally, I don't think Szeth broke in his younger years, but I can't deny the possibility that a Nahel spren could have been the impetus of being named Truthless. My opinion on the matter is that Szeth's time period of being Truthless, especially the latter parts where he's starting to go craycray, is what did the job sufficient enough for him to become a candidate for a bond later on. The one thing I do wonder about is the 'spirits of the stone' promising that Surgebinding and so on are gone. It makes me wonder if Stone Shamanism has its dogma rooted with Cultivation somewhere, or that she's subtly been manipulating people from making waves in the world (the Shin having the Honorblades would surely do that if they weren't xenophobic). Plus, farmers being revered among the Shin would be an almost literal way of worshipping Cultivation, too.

So rather than make nineteen thousand threads each discussing one miniature topic, I figured I'd just do an info dump here. >.> Mini-Theories This one is almost corroborated by numerous epigraphs (and the Diagram) that mention the Unmade. Specifically: Re-Shephir, Dai-gonarthis, Yelig-nar, and Moelach. The word 'consume' is used in relation to each of the first three, the word 'soul' for the last three, and both Dai-gonarthis and Yelig-nar have epigraphs that specifically reference the speaker's or victim's soul being held captive and/or consumed. I don't think this is a coincidence, given that we know that human souls are apparently formed of Investiture. The bit about slaves is mostly speculation, based on Dalinar's flashback regarding Sja-anat*. The second shadow shown was vaguely human shaped, yet it dove into the water and animated rock into a thunderclast. I don't think I need to go into exact reasons how or why a human soul could be driven to 'hate' its own kind, especially if it has been subjected to an extensive (and likely agonizing) feeding process. * I suspect 'corruption' is the greater of Sja-anat's powers, which is why I label that Unmade the Black Piper. I can't really put my finger on why I say the last, as it's based almost completely off of conjecture (i.e. - not enough concrete info or WoB on it). As far as conjecture goes, see above about Sja-anat and that flashback, specifically: What did the Radiant mean by the spy not being able to go far without a carrier? The men that were there in the flashback were clearly squires (they were glowing faintly with Stormlight), so perhaps they were protected from being possessed, but what about a normal human and resident wildlife? This folklore and Vorin doctrine(?) about the Voidbringers inhabiting people (and presumably animals) clearly originated from somewhere, and we now have the possibility that it's factual. Pure conjecture, I'm afraid, but this was born of asking the question: "What would have made Szeth claim the Voidbringers have returned?" There are few answers that I can think of: A Herald stating so and proving his/her claim via Honorblade powers. An actual witnessing of Voidbinding (and/or the Unmade), or witnessing Voidspren manifesting into the world. My personal guess is he crossed paths with the man claiming to be Taln, who 'raised the alarm' to Szeth and proved his claim that he was who he was, before everything gradually crashed down on him as he made his way across the continent trying to give a clarion call to all the races before collapsing in Alethkar. Either way, I think this event with Szeth happened roughly six years ago, when Gavilar uncovered a little dark secret in his expeditions into Natanatan, and that set a lot of events into motion. Series Speculation and Predictions - Jasnah and Taln will have a fling. She has high standards, after all, and who else but a Herald could reach her high bar? - Dalinar's book and the first half will end with him bearing witness to Cultivation's demise and Splintering. It will basically be the darkest part of the storm, but it will also be very important later on for reforging the two Splintered Shards later. (Yes, I'm predicting Dalinar becoming Honor if not more.) - Lift asked the Nightwatcher to make her awesome. <- It just seems obvious to me. - Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher either to remove his pain (from his wife dying), or to become a different man. Either way, the result was the hole where his wife was, which is the hole that his Surgebinding later filled. Speculation Proven Wrong - How Jasnah survived. I seriously thought that she had Soulcasted Ivory into a body double. My thought at the time was that Soulcasting works almost perfectly on your bonded spren, this being due to the fact that your spren can imitate your form due to long association. It would also explain the to-the-heart wound failing, as stabbing a spren corpse seems rather meaningless to me. This thought was born of the fact that Shallan's Lightweaving was stable when attached to and in proximity of Pattern when she wasn't, so that made me think your spren can enhance Surgebinding when physically close to the usage of it. Thus, the 'oh! Soulcasting probably works better on your bonded spren because they're a willing change and can impersonate you!' and so on. I figured Elsecalling had a flaw, particularly when we hit the epilogue -- otherwise why abandon Shallan unless she was that driven in her self-appointed mission? -- but I had no insights there.

I think this is some sort of side effect of a Soulcaster fabrial, as one of the primary uses of Soulcasters on the Shattered Plains (which is where we saw that transmutation of the ardents in question) is that they were Soulcasting structures into stone, as well as other objects into food. Additionally, we don't know the exact semantics of a Soulcaster fabrial versus a Soulcaster Surgebinder with respect to the Shadesmar interaction. It could very well be that some facets of 'modern' fabrials are flawed from the beginning, and/or are prone to such effects with prolonged use. (I refer to the documents in The Way of Kings that were translated and discussed the forced enslavement of a spren. Suppose the spren was willing or 'oathsworn' to do it; my money is on the Oathgates being one such, particularly since the lock mechanism is made from the same substance as a Shardblade.)

Two reasons: 1) Per WoR Ars Arcanum -- Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound and Various Waveforms. 2) Per WoB, detection via Bronze Mistings is done by sensing differences in various waveforms. What I'm getting at, is that I think Illumination can be used in a similar manner, much as sonar is a usage of waveforms (sound) for the purposes of detection. I don't recall if Brandon explicitly gave details of how a Seeker can do this, but it's what led me to think an Illumination Surge user could do the same. It's one of the questions I want to ask him, because it's unclear whether Illumination strictly manipulates waveforms, or if it can observe them as well, like a Seeker Misting can. Hypothetically, I don't see how an Illumination Surgebinder can't discover a waveform that for all intents and purposes is an Investiture detector (and also capable of sending out deceptive waveforms that make people looking for Investiture use think it's something that it isn't).

My personal take on it is this: - The Nahel bond emulates both the Honorblades and -- this is my pet theory -- any special abilities that Cultivation (likely) gave to the Heralds*. In other words, the spren are duplicating both traits. For Lightweavers, it's "ocular mnemonics". I'll wager that Shalash has the exact same Memory-taking ability, and possibly more (but it still sources in the eyes). I think Lightweavers also have a more instinctual ability to perceive someone's Cognitive blueprint, if you will, and can manipulate that on a subliminal level, via their artistic sense and Illumination. Words of Radiance (both in-world and our book) corroborate the idea. * I say likely because the man claiming to be Nale/Nalan'Elin is seriously giving me a 'modified'/'augmented'/'talented' vibe in how he detects something with both Lift and Jasnah. The man claiming to be Taln (assuming he is, for the moment) could very well have been given extensive physical talents, like being a massive dude with crazy agility.

If I had to choose Surges based on order: Progression and Illumination (ie - Truthwatcher). If I could choose Surges based on preference: also Progression and Illumination, though sometimes I sure would want Abrasion. The reasons for overlap are different in each case, though. In the first case, it's based on speculation of which spren I was likely to attract (I suspect Cryptics would be curious too). In the second case, it would have to do with how I suspect Illumination can be used (think Seeker Mistings) plus I'd want the ability to heal. Illumination strikes me as a very, VERY versatile Surge when someone really knows how to use it to its full extent.

Szeth isn't carrying this sphere with him, however. He hid it in Jah Keved and has not gone back for it (confirmed in one of his pov chapters). So if he's attracted Yelig-nar's attention, it's been following him around. (Personally, I think Nergaoul is who/what was in the dark sphere, as Taravangian's POV seems to imply that it's been stationary.) Alternatively, we could be reading too deeply into the 'screams' and that it's really just a byproduct of his mind 'breaking' over all the murders. (Hint hint.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for closure too, but when you consider just how big the death toll in a Desolation has been in the past, it's very likely that there will be few (non-Surgebinders) left, and even Surgebinders will doubtless fall due to Voidbinder powers and the Unmade and so on (incl. but not limited to: betrayal, suicide, and other fun things that happen in wartime). And that's without touching on the Everstorm(s?) effect on the world.

I should clarify one thing about my laundry list. I meant to say that I think Kaladin's parents will end up dead, and that will be one of the major tipoffs leading him towards his Fourth Ideal. I also keep forgetting Shallan is at 4/5. >.>

RE: Mraize. He stated, in the last meeting Shallan has with him, that her family has a "long history" of being involved in these events. Six years seems a relatively short span of time, to me, so since Lin Davar joined the Ghostbloods not too many years back, I took this to mean that Shallan's mother was the member who was active. I don't think Helaran was involved, else why not just flat out say to Shallan that her brother had been one of them too?

@Meg: My question isn't about whether Cultivation was directly involved so much as she empowered the Heralds in her own way (gave them 'talents'?). In other words, Honor gave them the Honorblades and the Oathpact; Cultivation gave them talents related to their - dare I say - Calling. My evidence for this is our Herald of Justice seemingly able to perceive people Investing via Stormlight. Lift and Jasnah's viewpoints both have that similarity here: he observes Lift regaining her Stormlight RIGHT AS IT HAPPENS via her metabolic talent; Jasnah he obviously detected something off with her, but she wasn't actively Soulcasting or utilizing Shadesmar after Ivory's withdrawl and her return to the Physical Realm.

Kaladin - Will be pressed towards the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners after overcoming the trauma of discovering his parents are dead, but Roshone is alive. The Fourth Ideal will be something along the lines of 'Protecting no matter the cost to myself'; sincerity and devotion to the job, in other words. - Should he end up in Kholinar, he'll come to terms with the lighteyes vs. darkeyes rift, if not outright strive to mend it by who he is, and it's that understanding of being a beacon for others that will result in the Fifth Ideal. - Syl will have the best snarky lines in the book, but will also drop a nuclear bomb on us about the Recreance, because she'll remember what happened then. Kaladin will end up learning the "secret that broke the Knights Radiant" and take a long time coming to terms about it. Shallan - Her primary focus will be research on the records in Urithiru, with Pattern offering some very frank commentary once he gets his Cryptic hands/lines on Navani's translations of Dalinar's visions. (Pattern will basically be the Dawnchant dictionary; Shallan will be the interpretation of it.) - Her Fourth Truth will be admitting to herself that her Mother was not the best of people, with the recollection being when her Mother first found out about the Surgebinding and the likely disturbing if not abusive aftermath of it. (This is implied partly by Mraize, whose words I thought were saying Shallan's mother was one of the Ghostbloods.) This will also give her the ability to provide sounds to Illusions, as well as improve her Soulcasting affinity for Shadesmar beads to improve her control over them. - I don't think Shallan will get to her final Truth, but I suspect it will be related to whatever event in her childhood that caused her to attract Pattern in the first place; she suppressed something a long time ago, even before manifesting Lightweaving. - Pattern will continue to find human taboos fascinating, and be very outspoken and clinical about them in ways that may horrify us before we start cracking up. Jasnah - I can has interludes of Jasnah getting irritated at Hoid and discovering first hand how serious the enemy is? (I totally want to see Jasnah find out firsthand that the Unmade are NOT a creation of folklore, as the Way of Kings epigraph said.) - Should Jasnah reach Urithiru, she will send a collective shock through Vorin Roshar, who may well start regarding her akin to the Heralds. In short, I'm predicting Jasnah will unwillingly become an object of worship, for "dying and returning from death." Dalinar - He's going to be on Nale's Naughty List, and this will be a significant altercation that will also send a collective shock through Vorin Roshar (that the nine Heralds that tried to forswear the Oathpact basically lied to everyone, and are doing little to aid humanity and save them from themselves). This fight/altercation will lead to the Third Ideal, as well as give us some serious insight into what a Bondsmith can do, and why they're so rare. - The Stormfather will be a very reluctant Q&A guy, which Brandon will use for relentless teasing via the Stormfather's accusations against humanity being untrustworthy. Eshonai - Interludes. She'll become conscious in the chasms (perhaps found by those who abandoned Narak without assuming stormform), and her fight with Adolin will have jarred her physically and mentally (concussion?) enough to fight off the Voidspren and/or Unmade that is controlling her. This will be the 'bridge' suggested by the Diagram, when she brings Voidbinding under her direct control, yet regains and retains her identity despite the cost of drawing the eyes of the Unmade to her, who she then has to flee. Renarin "I'm standing over the body of a brother. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?" - The above epigraph will involve him somehow. I can't decide how, yet.

Just a few queries on my mind... Stormlight - How demanding (if not abusive) a father was Gavilar to his children? - Counting the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather as two "similar" spren, are there exactly fourteen others like them on Roshar (dead or alive)? Or is that number only one? - Does the number of Heralds plus (named) Unmade add up to sixteen? - How hard is Odium trying to influence the emerging Surgebinders for the purpose of tearing them away from their spren/oaths? (Kaladin seems to be attracting his attention, as is Szeth.) - Before Szeth's interactions with the man claiming to be Nalan'Elin, did he have a previous interaction with a Herald? If so, was it in Shinovar? - Let's assume for this question that the man claiming to be Taln really is him. How long has he been on Roshar since his release from 'that place of pain and fire'? - Let's assume I was a skilled bronze-burner/Seeker misting on Roshar (in other words, I can detect variance in Investiture usage). Let's also assume, for simplicity, that I can categorize uses of Investiture to a given Shard. If I were to burn bronze around a Herald using his/her full powers, would I detect both Honor and Cultivation? - Does a spren touched by Sja'anat retain its Cognitive form, or is its previous existence fundamentally altered? For example, does a flamespren stay a flamespren under Sja'anat's control, or is it no longer a flamespren? - Are the named Unmade dormant outside of Desolations? If not, how frequent are their periods of activity? - Do the named Unmade share a common trait with Vasher in terms of Investiture? - Could you discuss folklore with respect to the Unmade, specifically Shallan's flashback where she mentions them? The merchant mentions that Shinovar would be "cursed" if the Unmade had been drawn there, but where does this comment source from? Vorin theology, or "common knowledge"? - Is Rall Elorim cursed? - Do spren manifest from Spiritual Ideals? - Were all of the Bondsmiths alive during the events leading up to, and including, the Recreance? Cosmere - Let's suppose a Shardholder were to travel to Scadrial and do his/her thing there, and that Harmony did not intervene. Would another metal-fueled form of Investiture manifest? - Same question, except the Shardholder goes to Roshar. Would more 'families' of spren begin to manifest?

The biggest issue is that the songs are ambiguous. Plus, I need to clarify one point: The listeners' songs are possibly referring to multiple groups of beings with the same words (specifically, their use of the words 'gods' and 'Unmade'). My biggest example of this is the same(?) song's stanza with similar and yet very different wording: I think the Unmade referenced in the listeners' songs reference two specific groups of beings, which are collectively referred to as the Unmade. The first group is the Unmade of significance (those so named in the book, such as Yelig-nar), who I strongly suspect are their 'gods' (more on this in a sec); the second group are the 'spren' that are mentioned via the Diagram and also folklore (ref. Shallan's flashback involving the talking parrot), examples being the spies Sja'anat creates out of regular spren, and those that have the ability to create/animate thunderclasts. The other factor that confirms to me that the (named) Unmade are the listeners gods, has to do with Eshonai's interlude when she's talking with her mother, and after when she assumed stormform: There is also one other question: who/what were the two beings in the Highstorm that Kaladin saw? We haven't seen any of the Unmade in 'person' yet, to my knowledge, but it seemed interesting and strange that two entities were on the Shattered Plains and presumably were heading westbound Words of Radiance introduces the idea behind 'drawing the eyes of the Unmade' upon a person/place/thing, which "common knowledge" would suggest induces a curse on a region, though I suspect it's more due to the Unmade's powers as a collective whole and what they can do to people. We've seen hints of this, after all, notably via the Thrill's effects, and Dalinar's visions more so. Exactly what occurs, well, I'm pretty sure we'll find out soon enough. At any rate, I do think that there is evidence for the (named) Unmade qualifying as the listeners' gods, though most of it is from the admittedly faulty and likely altered songs that they have regarding their gods.

So here's the major question: Where did Venli get all the stormspren from in the first place, let alone the one that Eshonai eventually was possessed by? There was plenty of time for a 'dress rehearsal' with stormform, you might say. My answer: Sja'anat. It's pretty clear from the epigraphs that the listeners' gods can force forms upon the race, and it's heavily implied that the Unmade are those gods. While it's assumed (and not explicitly confirmed?) that Sja'anat is one of the Unmade, the fact remains that spren touched by this being change.* Stormspren are described as a 'red' glow, as is the 'spy' in one of Dalinar's visions. It's possible that corrupted spren could be altered into another type altogether, which could then mean that, say, windspren during a highstorm could end up being transformed into the stormspren needed for the stormform bonding process. The other point I want to raise is how Venli cracked the secret of stormform without a helping 'divine' hand. I think Venli either made contact with one of the Unmade or became the pawn of one, and was used to subvert the rest of the 'rebel' parts of her race so that the listeners would then fully be under the influence of their gods again, when the Desolation hit. In other words, it both took away the chance for the rebels to aid humanity, as well as use them to be able to mass transform those in slaveform; two birds, one spren/stone. Additionally, Venli references 'the songs' as to why the Everstorm will blow the wrong way, but Eshonai's point of view seems to make it quite clear that the songs she knew said no such thing, which means Venli got information from a different source altogether. Again, I point to her making contact with the Unmade, and had for some time. Honestly, I wonder if Venli's seemingly latent hatred and jealousy is what really started events there, by which I mean it caused her to inadvertently draw Odium's attention, and the dominoes fell into place from there. * I'd very much like to get a WoB on whether the spren retains its Cognitive form (a flamespren is still a flamespren) when touched by Sja'anat, or if it's completely subsumed into something else (i.e. - does it become a Voidspren? Part of the collective entities known as the Unmade?)

In no particular order... Szeth vs the other Honorblades Szeth vs Nightblood (after events in Shinovar) Dalinar vs Nale/Nalan'Elin -- You can't convince me that a man tracking down 'illegal' activities in Surgebinder pasts is not going to come after a man who was a bloodthirsty warlord. This one would be very significant, I think. Kaladin vs Kholinar's Rioters (Interlude) Eshonai vs the Unmade controlling her Jasnah (and Hoid?) vs the Unmade -- they were drawn westward by someone or something, and Jasnah's Elsecalling through the realms could have been the impetus. This assumes her location wasn't 'west' of where the Unmade were, of course.

Oh hai, first post here. Anyway, this Death Rattle is ambiguous, but I've always wondered one thing: How do we know it's not Moelach directly speaking to the individual(s) recording Death Rattles? The context fits as well, particularly "I wish to sleep." when combined with Vargo's viewpoint regarding Moelach and slumbering. So far as I've read, no one's voiced this possibility, which probably means I missed it.