dvoraen

Part of the trouble with the Purelake fortress is: we don't know when that vision took place. It could have been multiple Desolations past, long enough to have been written out of history entirely (no one remembered it because of the death toll and destruction of civilization and recorded history). All it really was, was an infomercial about Sja-anat, I thought, and thunderclast animation. That's the main idea aside from Honor's statements, which were more of the same of Dalinar's previous visions.

I think the world has been building up to a Desolation for some time. This has been hinted at in the visions (specifically, signs such as Midnight Essence attacks). The implication being, that the Unmade are active in the world again being that big hint one is coming. This begs one question I've had, though, that if the Unmade are a harbinger of a Desolation, why haven't there been reports related to the others for the past six years, as we only know of the presence of Moelach and Nergaoul at this time?

Jasnah does say to Hoid that she was pressed at the time of her escape. For all we know, Elsecalling allows for extremely distant travel from a stable junction such as a Shard Perpendicularity, but it could require significantly higher quantities of Investiture. Either way, it could be as simple as she had to pick the first place she could when she Elsecalled, so she came out randomly (think Lost in Space?). We just don't really know the semantics of Transportation.

Were the Three Realms (Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual) created by Adonalsium, or Investiture? (I do see a difference here, for those wondering.)

Since Harmony is considered "one Shard" now (since WoB says Sazed would drop the Shard Harmony if he somehow died, or what have you), wouldn't this then suggest there is only one Shardpool now on Scadrial? Ruin and Preservation were fully merged into Harmony. I would think that their Shardpools would either expend themselves or be part of that reunification, though we probably won't get much about that until much later.

RE: Bolded. I assume you refer to the epigraph that mentions "though whether...Avena would not suggest." ? I never got the impression that it was an actual Radiant (but I could be forgetting something from Way of Kings), but rather that Avena was an ancient writer referenced. The in-world Words of Radiance was, per Shallan's POVs, written about two(?) centuries after the fact, so there's plenty of time for the facts to be muddled, or even suppressed. Factual records of the time could have been expunged when the author of the WoR book took up the project, but there's also the certain fact that Brandon deliberately didn't give us much except a big tease from Chapter 38 of that book. Would really like to see Jasnah's take on that book, for sure. I bet Ivory told her stuff, to say nothing of what Pattern likely clarified.

Belated reply to the bolded part. What if they couldn't keep quiet about it, but weren't necessarily alive to pass it on? I still stand firm on the following rough timeline of this epigraph (if we assume that it's factual and not hearsay): - The Radiants did something that was considered "impudence." - The "withdrawl" spoke of above was the Radiants disengaging from the intense fighting that was going on at the time. This was considered an "act of great villainy" and betrayal. - After the Radiants forswore their oaths, those who felt it a villainous and/or traitorous act slaughtered them for it. ("About two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership.) - One of the orders was not among all of this, because they stayed involved. I still contend that this was the Skybreakers. - The last order falls out of public eye (and/or goes into seclusion), and the long span of time, the Hierocracy's alterations of history, and hearsay, did their job to bury the event deep to the point perhaps no one knows the truth unless they were directly involved. As to why they wouldn't divulge it: If people by then considered the Radiants traitorous, as "common/present knowledge" states, and you tried to explain why, would you risk the likely lynch mob, assassination, disbelief, and so on? It could do some good, but I really don't think that the (likely very few) survivors went that route. The reason for this is that I still claim there has been an undertone of the Radiants losing faith in humanity as a whole, that they didn't want to have anything more to do with being guardians of the world (ref. the Feverstone Keep visions when Dalinar is chasing after the man who is trying to shake him off. I don't have my copy of The Way of Kings to quote, though.)

RE: Szeth and healing shardcuts. I always got the impression that this was because Szeth believed he couldn't heal from one, so he couldn't. "Everyone knows" you can't, so you can't, kind of deal.

There's one other angle that I haven't seen (or I missed it) in this thread: What changes if the Shardplate is formed due to a Nahel bond? We've explicitly seen that it takes on similar properties to 'live' Shardblades (the glow, and the transparency or outright dismissal of parts such as the helm), and since a live spren as your Blade makes a difference with at least an Oathgate*, what other qualities emerge when it's "live" Shardplate? * I will wager that in this case, it's because your live spren has to communicate, in the Shadesmar way, with the 'spren' of the Oathgate to unlock and/or invoke the large-scale Transportation to the destination site.

I don't think Voidbinding uses a bond in the way the spren instigate a Nahel bond. If anything, I see Voidbinding as akin to Hemalurgy, in that you take something for your own ends. Which reminds me, I should get back to work on the 'Voidbinding' chart for guesswork at the naming for some of the levels. (Yes, I have too much time on my hands to think about this stuff.)

I was kind of leaning towards end-negative, yes, but at the very minimum I see the Shard Odium as an entropic power in the way Ruin's is, only the destructive aspect is considerably more focused. Hatred is not a trivial concept when it has a target. It's why I think that the net gain in (Voidbinding) power seems like it's end-positive, because the use of that power is considerable, but it's really at the larger expense to yourself. For instance, let's just assume that the Unmade do use Voidbinding as the basis for their powers. At the very minimum, Moelach and Nergaoul have a huuuuuuge radius of influence with what they do. The scale for the Death Rattles and Thrill is massive in each case, and this is only what we know they can do. We haven't seen the Unmade in direct confrontation except for maybe Midnight Essence and thunderclasts. Another thing, is that I also think that the Unmade require Investiture (they choose souls) to maintain their powers and/or existence, much like the Returned need Breath to fuel their Divine Breath. In the case of the Unmade, it's to stave off further corrosion to their beings in addition to fueling their powers. It could also be another form of torture that the Heralds go through outside of Desolations, as well, but that is speculation.

As the topic says, I've been pondering on this subject lately, especially considering that Peter may have hinted (keyword: may) that the Unmade are Voidbinders. But I'm getting ahead of myself, here. Let's start with what we do know about Voidbinding, from the Ars Arcanum, and then I'll bust out the random fancy: It's not much to go on, but my ruminations began with the bolded key phrases. Consider the following: Voidbinding is, by implication, esoteric. The definition of the word esoteric alone suggests that there's a very specific factor to allow for the usage of the power (and/or is exclusive to possibly the Unmade). There are multiple levels of Voidbinding. Speculation took me along the idea that each requires some state to be true in order to reach the next one. Sound familiar? I think of the Heightenings as sourced from Endowment's manifestation of Investiture, specifically that a certain number of Breaths are required to reach a certain level of Heightening. I think there's a similar component here, but the requirement for reaching the various levels of Voidbinding are different. Key in what we know about the Unmade, specifically the following from the Diagram: Let's assume for now that the Diagram is spot on with respect to the Unmade and how they're akin to spren. This would therefore imply that they lack a substantial Physical component to their being, that they are mostly Cognitive. If they really are Voidbinders, why would this be a common thread, unless Voidbinding requires a willing sacrifice of oneself in order for the Shard's power to take root? It's almost a corroborated idea, if Rlain's comments on the listener gods' (presumably the Unmade) are indeed factual, that those gods literally gave up aspects of themselves in order to become dangerous, powerful entities. They "unmade" themselves in exchange for Voidbinding powers. Thus, we have some mindless agents of destruction, because they largely gave up sentience in the (I assume) hope to destroy the opposition with the power gained in exchange for that loss of cognition. I then wondered the following: Suppose there are Unmade who simply are just 'mindless' forms of destruction. What if those, then, are therefore the most powerful, because they have "given of themselves to destroy" to such a higher extent, that they have virtually little substance to them, that they're almost literally are just forces of destruction? In other words, they sacrificed almost all of their Physical and/or Cognitive and/or Spiritual components in exchange for attaining higher levels of this power, which are also the most powerful and wide-reaching. Alternatively, it could simply be the case that by sacrificing a specific attribute in one's self (physical form, sentient thought, etc.) gains one access to a specific 'level' of Voidbinding. The chart for it resembling the Surgebinder chart is, however, troubling, and doesn't support the idea of a "prerequisite" system as with Heightenings. Requiring the sacrifice of a specific aspect -- dare I say, Essence? -- on the other hand... Thoughts?

Pattern states there were few survivors, and that the Stormfather was one of them*. The only definitive statement regarding which spren is that of few survivors, and that there were no survivors (of those bonded) among the Cryptics. I can dig out a specific quote a little later; just got home. * This, too, is one of the major points that makes me wonder how that's possible unless those bonded to him had been killed and/or were dead before the severing of oaths. EDIT: Adding quote. The part in bold is very relevant, as it implies that the Stormfather was a survivor of the Recreance, which, again, I ask how this is possible if the Bondsmiths were included in forswearing their oaths rather than exterminated. I also want to point out one (arguably corner) case: Kaladin's got a lot of skeletons in the closet, yet despite being bound to an honorspren, it was enough to get him to all but break his bond. Even Syl's guidance -- and I think it's safe to say he at least considers her a companion if not friend -- was not enough to stop this from happening. It may have worked out in the end, but the point still stands that even a Windrunner could be goaded or manipulated into actions that potentially break the oaths binding the Nahel bond. Having an honorspren around does not necessarily stop you from violating an oath, which could be all that's needed, no matter how high a regard you hold for your spren. I'm saying it really could be a simple thing that allows it to be broken.

Another thing about the 'blessing'/curse situation I've been wondering about: Who said the blessings are strictly magical in nature? I've been wondering if that story about receiving cloth is even accurate or a complete fabrication, simply because we don't know if the Nightwatcher is paid tributes (which is where said cloth could have come from previously). I don't think it was created on the spot, in other words, but again this assumes that who-knows-how-many-handed story is even truthful rather than made up. There's also the idea that the Curses may have a purpose later on too, since they linger just as much. Would be... problematic... if the Nightwatcher's blessings and curses let the Unmade do even nastier things to a person.

I was referring to Dalinar as the beacon versus "King of the World." I wasn't clear. Sorry. As far as "wicked thing of eminence" is concerned, the term is so ambiguous and vague that it could be almost, dare I say, anything. I just think that there's evidence supporting it being an event rather than an actual person or object. "Something happened" that put the Windrunners in a frenzy. Based on what we know about their Ideals, I figured that it was more that they heard about an event that they would have had a heavy hand in had they been present. To put it in a more real-world sense, think of the massacre at the school reportedly done by a Taliban group. I can't see the Windrunners not going into collective apoplexy over "discovering" that sort of event happened. (I think we can agree it would qualify as a "wicked thing of eminence.") They would certainly "respond immediately and with great consternation" over it, would you not agree?

On the subject of the Diagram's messages, I have one question: Why is it so insistent that Dalinar be assassinated, at threat of "competition"? I never got the impression that he was going to end up "King of the World" so much as a beacon for it. I still personally think the Diagram is a sham in the exact same ways as the Terris prophecies in Mistborn are, for exactly the same reasons. The best way to get people to do your bidding is to make them believe it's their own idea, and to disguise the source of that idea. "I wasn't precognitive, I was just really smart!" = Justification for carrying it out, because it "clearly" wasn't predicting the future, despite the general accuracy of the Diagram or informing Taravangian of several subjects (such as the Unmade) that people, including Jasnah, consider folklore.

Because of the formatting (I need footnotes for parts of it), I will have to resort to giving a Google Docs link. It's approaching lengthy, and it's not fully complete, but I got two of the major points out of the way. Secondly, I'm not fully finished with even those two points; I've got the main argument out of the way, but I feel like I'm lacking a few things, so expect the document to evolve over time, including parts III and IV. If you're really curious, part V (the notes) should be enough to explain what I'm getting at. Link to Rambling: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AZg-dlftdqdBy32egf23Ar5ugtrfFgUYEXk6ljCL1LM/edit?usp=sharing

Because of this I'm now picturing certain ads like "live bare safehands". I must be perverted.

It's just a metaphor for tradesmen, farmers, craftsmen, artists, scientists, and so on. Society can't function without people to practice trades, ideas and innovation. Those of Alethela functioned as the defense of that (Silver Kingdom) society. I didn't think there was any deeper meaning to it.

Honestly, I get the feeling that although Gavilar was chosen as a vessel for Honor's visions -- notice how I don't say he was the first person to receive them -- he wasn't likely to advance as a Bondsmith fully. Why? His methods were clearly suspect, when one considers his plan to return the Voidbringers to Roshar per the mission of the Sons of Honor. If he were to end up a Bondsmith, I personally suspect at least one of the oaths would have broken. I could be wrong, and his way of thinking and views of the world have changed -- and Jasnah herself observes that her father has undergone a 'remarkable' transformation -- but the fact that he wanted the Heralds back for suspect reasons, enough so that he was still on that path six years ago, makes me question just how suitable he would have been.

RE: Bolded This is why I claim it's not just the Honorblades that the spren emulated. Shallan has already demonstrated that she has something else going on with her (her drawings of what are likely distant events, as well as her selectively eidetic memory*), and the fact that Renarin is showing possible precognition, which Sylphrena flat out states isn't of Honor (though we know he's imperfect at it), seriously hints at another thing going on here, to me. * Another thing about Memories, is that in The Way of Kings Shallan even makes the observation that she has a limit to her Memory taking, before she has to offload them into a drawing or equivalent.

One thing I want to chime in on, regarding fabrials, is the following: Who here, besides Peter , can say with certainty that the Heralds didn't teach the Radiants and humanity everything they know about fabrials, while potentially withholding knowledge and/or that knowledge being lost between Desolations? The simple fact that Urithiru has a conjoined-gemstone lift that works based on counterweights supports the idea that there was a higher technology level before matters become covered up. In other words, there could very well be advanced fabrials lying about for the Stone Shamanate and other people to use (to say nothing of the Oathgates being accurate uses of the Transportation Surge on a planetary scale), and 'modern' fabrials are a rediscovery of the potentially lost knowledge the Heralds likely possess.

It is a pattern.

Because of this point, I've wondered about the Stone Shamanate and Szeth's certainty they'd reclaim the Blade: - I think it's safe to say that at least one or two of them (if not all of them) would be dispatched with the Honorblades bound to them for the purposes of retrieving the other. In other words, guarantee certainty of its return to Shinovar. At least one of the Blades left behind* grants access to Transportation, so Elsecalling across the continent seems plausible, or at least increases the likelihood of a fairly speedy recovery. - Secondly, how would they even know it was relinquished from the previous owner in the first place? I've wondered if the Shin have access to some of the (implied to exist) advanced fabrials that allow them to track an individual. After all, Nalan was able to find Szeth when Kaladin speared him through, plus he explicitly uses the words "this attracted me", as if it were perceivable in some manner, to say nothing of the fabrials he uses personally. Who is to say that the Stone Shamanate doesn't have access to similar abilities to learn of these types of events? * We don't know which specific Blade is missing aside from the Windrunner Honorblade. Whoever came for the other one didn't necessarily take the one they originally had.

Just a few more I had come to mind: Stormlight - Have the eyes of the Unmade been drawn towards Kharbranth in the past, outside of the Death Rattles being harvested there? - On the day of the Diagram, was Taravangian's capacity for compassion effectively next to zero? Did this have any effects on the Cognitive and/or Spiritual realm? (By this, I mean did it make enough waves for other entities to observe that something was happening there with him.) - If Hoid were to see the room the Diagram was written in, would he be able to read Taravangian's madeup language without the need for its translation key?