The Fused's name for aluminum

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Why would Nalthis care?

They have the Returned, whom Investiture is literally vital for.

[Frustration]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

They have the Returned, whom Investiture is literally vital for.

Fair enough,

[+Oltux72]

11 minutes ago, DiePie said:

The most obvious reason would be that it's an easier way of fueling the Returned than Breaths, but even still Fabrial technology (once a way of getting it offworld is discovered) would be a mahor Rosharan export, and would create a reliance on Roshar because it is the only place where you can get stormlight.

Yes. Though even there we see that Southern Scadrial has been developing a competing technology. The Nalthian equivalent is maybe the best but hideously expensive, while Selish magic is not exportable.

Right now we have three sources of arcane machinery:

• Roshar - Fabrials
• Scadrial - Medaillions
• the Ire - as yet nameless

In the relative near future it looks like Threnody is going to join them. That is quite a number, so we need to ask into which arcane arts Stormlight would fit without modification. And for that I see just two:

• the Returned
• Sandmastery - you can make your sand everywhere.

Yet Scadrial has some real advantages

• they are ready to go now - no issues with moving spren off world or through perpendicularities
• they can export capabilities
• they can export mercenaries
• they can, if they really want to, export the fuel source in form of compounding
• if they want to get really bloody, they could export hemalurgic products

[CogitoErgoArclo]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Quote

 

Actually, what for? Scadrial looks like the world that does not need Stormlight. It gets interesting as soon as you can fuel Feruchemy with it. Failing that, I see no point. The world that really is the ready market for Stormlight would be Nalthis.

As far as aluminium is concerned there must be an alternate source in the Cosmere.

1. SA is before Era 2. Aluminium is still scarce on Scadrial
2. The Fused knew that there was aluminium under Urithiru. That makes it ancient. In fact it would predate the Lord Ruler.
3. It was found in the Rose Empire

These are the juicy bits!  
I can’t think of anything specific they could use stormlight for, outside of a stable replacement for ettmetal.
But Kelsier wants it badly, and the Ghostbloods seem to have a plan for its use. 
1. Still scarce yes. But Scadrial pre-catacandre was very cosmere aware and we have lots of hints that it was actively involved in the economy of the cognitive realm and probably had many worldhoppers. Aluminum could have been  one of their exports. 
2. I personally think this is evidence of Radiants and Fused actively trading in the cognitive realm before and during the Heraldic epochs. Also entirely possible through that knowledge exchange Radiant soulcasters learned to make aluminum in the first place. 
3. The Rose Empire is the most fascinating to me at the moment. I’m not as familiar with Sel, as I am Roshar or Scadrial, but the word “ralkalest” sounds in my mind to be more Scadrian than Selish. It’s dangerous to get through the cognitive realm in Sel, but Hoid and the Ire seem to manage alright, so either it’s a natively Selish term that has diffused through the cognitive realm(via the Ire) or it’s a remnant of their trade with pre-catacendre Scadrial, and the term has been diffusing through the cognitive realm ever since Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial. 
 

And you’re totally right about trade coming before war, but I’d argue that they’re not mutually exclusive. 
Especially if we have a few cosmere Super Powers with some smaller players trading between them via the cognitive realm to survive. 
 

And yes! Colonies! They’re going to be key for extracting the resources these shardworlds need. 

 

Edit: to clarify, I am only excited about the narrative uses of colonies in the cosmere. Real world colonization is objectively awful. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

the word “ralkalest” sounds in my mind to be more Scadrian than Selish

I dunno. When it comes to names at least, Scadrial tends to be pretty french in orgin and this is definitely not a French-sounding word. Then again, neither is skaa. I'm inclined to think selish at the moment, though t would make sensethat if this really is a widespread term that it didn't orginate the first place we heard it. So hard to say.

Also I found a very interesting theory about why aluminum is the way it is on an old thread. (Old enough that we didn't know ralkahest was aluminum). Should I share that here? Or would that be too off-topic? It might help push the discussion in directions people wouldn't have thought of otherwise

[CogitoErgoArclo]

13 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I dunno. When it comes to names at least, Scadrial tends to be pretty french in orgin and this is definitely not a French-sounding word. Then again, neither is skaa. I'm inclined to think selish at the moment, though t would make sensethat if this really is a widespread term that it didn't orginate the first place we heard it. So hard to say.

Also I found a very interesting theory about why aluminum is the way it is on an old thread. (Old enough that we didn't know ralkahest was aluminum). Should I share that here? Or would that be too off-topic? It might help push the discussion in directions people wouldn't have thought of otherwise

Definitely could be a holdover from Yolen or a pre-shattering economy. 
 

I; personally,  am very interested in the theory, but I am new and unsure of the etiquette on forums in general. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Just now, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Definitely could be a holdover from Yolen or a pre-shattering economy. 

It's certainly possible, but I don't think it's the only possibility. I mean it's been something like 10000 years since the shattering I think? We know there are worldhoppers, so I'd be surprised if terms from shardworlds hadn't ever spread to other shardworlds since then.

And here's the theory. It's from 2015, before we even knew for sure that Ralkahest was aluminum. By @Moogle. No idea if they're still active here

Quote

I've had a theory kicking around over it being because they've got something funky going on in the Spiritual related to their identity being super strong and unalterable. To Push on a metal, you need a connection (which is what the Spiritual deals with) in the form of a blue line. Similarly, wounds refuse to heal around aluminum (body can't push it out), and you can't form a connection from you to someone to Soothe them if they're wearing an aluminum hat. If the aluminum has an identity that just plain refuses to change, this would fit with the observed behavior. It would also fit in with the theory on it being ralkalest: the identity is too strong and resists Forging.

 

This 'strong identity' theory would also fit in with how aluminum has effects vaguely related to identity in both Feruchemy and Allomancy (purges external Investiture, 'purifying' your identity). I wonder if it steals your personality in Hemalurgy, along with its effects of stealing Enhancement metals?

It was from this thread about anti-investiture which was very fun to read through in light of recent revelations. 

[CogitoErgoArclo]

12 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

It was from this thread about anti-investiture which was very fun to read through in light of recent revelations. 

Any idea how we ask the Mods to move threads? This thread is absolute gold, and would definitely benefit everyone by being on the spoiler board. 

The bit about ChayShan alone has huge implications for Kaladin. 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Just now, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Any idea how we ask the Mods to move threads? This thread is absolute gold, and would definitely benefit everyone by being in on the spoiler board. 

 

It's a closed thread anyway, even if we could move it. But yes, people should absolutely look through it. Maybe we could make a new thread meant to be a continuation and just link the original?

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

These are the juicy bits!  
I can’t think of anything specific they could use stormlight for, outside of a stable replacement for ettmetal.

If it works. And they do not look like they are suffering from a shortage of ettmetal.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

But Kelsier wants it badly, and the Ghostbloods seem to have a plan

Yes.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

for its use. 

Maybe. He may just as well be cooperating with somebody or planing to sell the good stuff.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

1. Still scarce yes. But Scadrial pre-catacandre was very cosmere aware and we have lots of hints that it was actively involved in the economy of the cognitive realm and probably had many worldhoppers. Aluminum could have been  one of their exports.

No. I am sorry, but you definitely need electricity to make aluminium in bulk.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

2. I personally think this is evidence of Radiants and Fused actively trading in the cognitive realm before and during the Heraldic epochs.

Yes.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Also entirely possible through that knowledge exchange Radiant soulcasters learned to make aluminum in the first place. 

That is an important point. The economics of metals is completely different on Roshar. It does not matter into which metal you soulcast stuff. Hence there is an upper limit on price that is independent of the scarcity of the metal. They just need an example.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

3. The Rose Empire is the most fascinating to me at the moment. I’m not as familiar with Sel, as I am Roshar or Scadrial, but the word “ralkalest” sounds in my mind to be more Scadrian than Selish.

That tells you nothing about words more than a few hundred years old. The Lord Ruler really scrambled Scadrials languages. Nor is it plausible that a word would stay the same among different worlds, hundreds of years and multiple species. The word is a kind of "international" word.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

And you’re totally right about trade coming before war, but I’d argue that they’re not mutually exclusive. 

Anything is possible. The largest trading partner of Germany in 1913 was France. Yet Scadrial and Roshar are true competitors in magomechanical machines.

11 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

And yes! Colonies! They’re going to be key for extracting the resources these shardworlds need. 

That is a good question? What will you import that a whole world will not provide?
 

 

[Shuffel]

I am 100% sold, Zu is a world hopper. The ars arcanum proves it imo

[skewh]

49 minutes ago, Shuffel said:

I am 100% sold, Zu is a world hopper. The ars arcanum proves it imo

I'm kind of sold on this too, if only because I can't think of a single example of Brandon reusing a name without it being the same character in a different place (e.g. Felt).

[CogitoErgoArclo]

12 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

It's certainly possible, but I don't think it's the only possibility. I mean it's been something like 10000 years since the shattering I think? We know there are worldhoppers, so I'd be surprised if terms from shardworlds hadn't ever spread to other shardworlds since then.

Been doing some Coppermind digging on Sel. And I found that one of their religions; one of their oldest religions, is known as Jesker. 
 

Spoilers for the Liar of Partinel: 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/448/#e14409

In the reading, the term Jesk is used many times to refer to Hoid and his Master. And the story is set on Yolen.
 

 Could be nothing, as all of that story is subject to change.
But I think it lends weight to the idea that “ralkalest” is a pre-shattering, Yolish term. Most likely kept in regular use by Hoid, Frost, and other folks in the cognitive realm. 
 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/4/2020 at 0:44 PM, DiePie said:

The most obvious reason would be that it's an easier way of fueling the Returned than Breaths, but even still Fabrial technology (once a way of getting it offworld is discovered) would be a mahor Rosharan export, and would create a reliance on Roshar because it is the only place where you can get stormlight.

I think this may be why Scadrial ends up rivaling Roshar. Ettmetal acts as a power source for Allomantic fabriels. And Scadrians can use medallions to compound giving them near infinite sources of kinetic (I think) Investiture.

If someone like Kell gains access to other forms on Investiture, he can compound that too. Double Nicrosil is an incredibly dangerous advantage in a trade war.

To make it even better, Scadrial does have free floating Investiture - the Mists. And the mists can be distilled into God metals... Granting an unlimited supply of the easily transportable, fabriel fueling Ettmetal.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To make it even better, Scadrial does have free floating Investiture - the Mists. And the mists can be distilled into God metals... Granting an unlimited supply of the easily transportable, fabriel fueling Ettmetal.

We know that some nights the mists are more preservation-y and some nights they're more ruin-y. So I wonder if the whether they could be stilled into lerasium and atium, respectively, or only ettmetal.

[Kingsdaughter613]

17 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

We know that some nights the mists are more preservation-y and some nights they're more ruin-y. So I wonder if the whether they could be stilled into lerasium and atium, respectively, or only ettmetal.

They can be. It’s occurred to me that Kell could use the pure tones of Ruin and Preservation to separate out the Mists, then distill them into Lerasium and Atium.

Which is an absolutely terrifying thought. And the GBs KNOW about the tones now!

[Leuthie]

Just FYI concerning aluminum and its source:

Quote

Questioner

What's the deal with silver? Why does it not fit cleanly into the Allomantic metals, why is aluminum a special one and not silver. Why is it silver powder and not aluminum powder on Threnody? These kinds of questions.

Brandon Sanderson

Do you want the in-world answer... or the writerly answer?

Questioner

Well really I want the in-world answer.

Brandon Sanderson

...The in-world answer is that people are not sure yet.

Questioner

Well, that's not the in-world answer. That's the in world answer from Khriss, right? What about the in-world answer from--

Brandon Sanderson

That's the in-world answer--they're not sure yet...

The writerly answer is that we started with silver in place of tin. And by the time I swapped it out, aluminum was already its thing. If I had to do it over again, I might make silver aluminum, but I wanted what aluminum does to be rare, and silver isn't. So I might not have. I love what aluminum does because it's super-rare pre-industrial, but you hit industrial and it's everywhere.

So it allowed me to do, when we get to modern era, to have real checks on Allomancy as Allomancy gets more powerful.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Aluminum is rare because it's difficult to separate from mined material without electricity. It will be plentiful once technology catches up. It is the most abundant metal and 3rd most element element in the Earth's crust behind Oxygen and Silicon.

Roshar has Invested rocks. However, the aluminum in rocks (on Earth) is locked away in various compounds, mostly oxides and sulfates. Aluminum in compounds isn't inert, just as aluminum in emeralds isn't inert. In fact, duralumin enhances allomancy and is literally a copper-aluminum alloy. Only "purified" aluminum is inert (although pure aluminum is so brittle it barely holds a shape and the things we call aluminum are all really alloys of aluminum, zinc, copper, silicon, chromium, etc.). Therefore, the aluminum in Roshar's rocks wouldn't interfere with any Investiture.

Hope that helps.

[+Bzhydack]

On 4.12.2020 at 7:57 AM, CogitoErgoArclo said:

1. You’re assuming the stone of Roshar is similar to stone on earth. It is definitely not. It’s a continent grown by God who’s ecology is dependent on investiture, a naturally occurring element that interferes with investiture might be an issue.

We know gemstones on Roshar are exactly the same gems, chemicaly speaking, as on Scadrial, and Scadrial is practicly Earh equivalent in Cosmere.

Here is WoB:

Quote

Firefight Atlanta signing (Jan. 24, 2015)
#10 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

ccstat

In Mistborn, Vin had a set of sapphire jewelry. If Demoux had brought those to Roshar, would they be infused by a highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

And I also dont see for what Scadrial would need Stormlight. They have their own technology and technomagic, and all they need is Ettmetal, rather easy to obtain because probably grows in Perpendicularity, and Metalborn/unkeyd Medalion/Hemalurgic Spike with proper power to charge Ettmetal bateries. They even have Mists, all they need is just talk to Harmony.

[Edgecaller]

On 11/25/2020 at 6:18 PM, mdross81 said:

Another (admittedly minor) overlap I noticed between RoW and Emperor's Soul is that the captain of the guards responsible for watching Shai is named Captain Zu, which is also the name of the Stoneward member of of the expedition to Lasting Integrity. As I often find myself saying, it could be nothing, but it's Brandon so it also could be something.

In this case, it seems a stretch too far to find a connection. Captain Zu is male, described as tall with pale skin and dark curly hair. Zu the Stoneward, on the other hand, is an Iriali female with bronze, metallic-looking skin and golden hair.

Then again, just for funsies I'll note that Shai describes Captain Zu as someone who "had a look of eagerness to him" and "fancied himself bound for important things in the future." And through Adolin's POVs  we get some a somewhat murky backstory for Stoneward Zu:

• she speaks Alethi remarkably well;
• she was apparently turned out by the Iriali when she first manifested Radiant powers;
• the Iriali thought her cursed by some strange god whose name Adolin didn't recognize;
• Adolin says at one point that she was the only Radiant on the expedition who "had held anything resembling a weapon before saying her oaths" but then later when he's introducing the party members to Maya and explaining their pasts, he gets to Zu and hesitates then asks what she used to do;
• Zu responds that she "made trouble, mostly";
• Zu later claims that she worked as a guide in the Reshi isles for years, after fleeing there to find a place where people wouldn't, as she put it, keep making rules about how she should live;
• Adolin later expresses doubts about part of her backstory - she claimed she's picked up scouting skills as a guide in the Reshi Isles, but Adolin thought she moved with too much stealth for that
• she's later explicitly referred to as "eager and excitable"

I don't know guys. I started thinking there was nothing to the two Zus, but given that we know the Iriali are descended from worldhoppers, that both characters are described as eager, and that Adolin doesn't seem to completely buy Zu's backstory, maybe there's something here?

We know of forgery in the Rose Empire, so it is possible that Captain Zu sought out a Forger, and they made him a Female. From there he could of worldhopped to Roshar, where he became a Radiant. (By the way I am new, and fairly confident that I got something correct)

[Bejarden]

28 minutes ago, Edgecaller said:

We know of forgery in the Rose Empire, so it is possible that Captain Zu sought out a Forger, and they made him a Female. From there he could of worldhopped to Roshar, where he became a Radiant. (By the way I am new, and fairly confident that I got something correct)

A popular theory is that Zu is actually Shai 

Also a stamp has to be possible changing genders and place of origin and all that other stuff would be pretty impossible, a stamp has to be plausible 

All shai would have to do would be to get a spren bond and make herself speak Alethi

And for Zu to find a forger as good as Shai was to ReForge his soul would be both impossible and completely out of his character 

Welcome to the Shard!!! ( Sorry for disagree with your first theory)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

28 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

All shai would have to do would be to get a spren bond and make herself speak Alethi

And make herself Iriali, which does kind of sound somewhat implausible unless there's a lot of those guys in MaiPon.

[+mdross81]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

A popular theory is that Zu is actually Shai 

Also a stamp has to be possible changing genders and place of origin and all that other stuff would be pretty impossible, a stamp has to be plausible 

All shai would have to do would be to get a spren bond and make herself speak Alethi

And for Zu to find a forger as good as Shai was to ReForge his soul would be both impossible and completely out of his character

I love the Zu is Shai theory. It seems plausible to me that Shai has the skill to pull off a Forgery like that, but it's been pointed out to me that it would be difficult to get the soulstamp to continue to work off of Sel.

 

45 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And make herself Iriali, which does kind of sound somewhat implausible unless there's a lot of those guys in MaiPon.

Who knows, Sel could have been part of the Long Trail.

[Bejarden]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And make herself Iriali, which does kind of sound somewhat implausible unless there's a lot of those guys in MaiPon.

It could be that she has a natural look of an irali like all Arelins look like Shin, Rose empire people can look like irali

[LewsTherinTelescope]

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It could be that she has a natural look of an irali like all Arelins look like Shin, Rose empire people can look like irali

None of the descriptions in TES remotely indicate that anyone there has the pure gold appearance of the Iriali. Metallic golden skin, metallic golden hair, yellow eyes, etc.

[Bejarden]

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

None of the descriptions in TES remotely indicate that anyone there has the pure gold appearance of the Iriali. Metallic golden skin, metallic golden hair, yellow eyes, etc.

Okay so I was thinking and thinking and then an idea occurred to me:

What if Shai found some sort of Connection medallion or something along the lines of that, that Connected her to Roshar. Then once she’s Connected it’s not such a leap that she is an irali. She would of course have to repeat this daily but that’s woudnt pose a problem to someone of her skill set.

She could be in some deep cover for the GB or 17th Shard