The Fused's name for aluminum

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Navani definitely does not mention where it comes from, and I think that deliberate on Brandon’s part, but the first reference to Aluminum that I can remember on Roshar is when Hoid brings Azure sheets of it in Kholinar.

No. Shallan got an aluminium necklace as a gift from her father and it was stated that it was valuable because it had to be made by soulcasting. She tried to use it to pay off her brother's gambling debts.

 

[CogitoErgoArclo]

Ah, totally right. 
 

But still to this point: 

Quote

Questioner

So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place?

Brandon Sanderson

...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting?

Questioner

In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant.

Brandon Sanderson

Don't take what she says at 100% truth.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

It definitely leaves room for things to be soulcast into aluminum, but if the Horneaters and/or the Ghostbloods were trading for it through the perpendicularity(s) in the peaks, they would definitely just say that it was soulcast and no one would question it. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[trav]

Shardblades are god metal. so are the Honorblades.
since Aluminium interacts with Shard and Honorblades like they were regular swords I always assume its another god metal. or the god metal.
its impossible to be pulled or pushed with Allomancy. like heavily invested items.
its also pretty odd that it can be allomantically burned while it resists every other form of investiture base actions. god metals can be burned.

I doubt it can be created by soulcasting (by conventional means) if it resists getting soulcasted from. it would make aquisition of Aluminium way too easy.

apparently this applies to other god metals aswell. it can not be created by soulcasting and it heavily resists getting soulcast from.

additionally Adonalsium has the god metal name pattern.

I'd be surprise if Aluminium did not turn out to be Adonals (-iums) god metal. or at least a Shards god metal.

Quote

Phantine

Could you soulcast atium from god-metal into god-wood?

Brandon Sanderson

Soulcasting atium would take a heap-ton of Investiture. You'd need a huge source to power that.

 

Quote

ninch

Could a person Soulcast more atium and lerasium if they had a bead?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Investiture messes things like that up.

Edited December 3, 2020 by trav

[Honorless]

Given that Roshar and Sel are Cognitive neighbours and Roshar itself appears to be a nexus between major Shardworlds via Shadesmar, I assumed the term came over from Sel.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, trav said:

Shardblades are god metal. so are the Honorblades.
since Aluminium interacts with Shard and Honorblades like they were regular swords I always assume its another god metal. or the god metal.

Spren are made out of Investiture. They react to other metals in fabrials. All metals shine like souls in "Mistmar" of Scadrial. Ruin could not read stuff engraved in steel. Aluminium is less unique than a naive view would suggest. It is merely spectacular and useful.

1 hour ago, trav said:

its impossible to be pulled or pushed with Allomancy. like heavily invested items.

Well, there is a problem. We saw Jasnah soulcast while wearing her armor. Dalinar had visions of Knights Radiant using Abrasion and Gravitation on themselves and their armor but being blocked by somebody else's Plate. Heavily invested items resist alien Investiture only. Nobody has ever made that experiment with aluminium. It would take a Twinborn and a lot of aluminium to do so.

 

[trav]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, there is a problem. We saw Jasnah soulcast while wearing her armor.

you are arguing semantics here. your definition of heavily invested may differ from mine.
Vin could only push the invested metals away from TLR because she had access to strong Allomancy at that moment. given enough power (for example a 4th ideal Radiant) one can affect "heavily" invested items.
I still highly doubt that Jasnah could affect TLRs metal minds like Vin did, for example.
if Aluminium is a god metal it would be even more invested than TLRs metal minds.

maybe its a bit naive as it fits way too well, idk. sounds almost too easy to figure out. especially with the WOB that describes another god metal works in the almost exact way, except that we don't yet have confirmation on the part that Aluminium can not be created by soulcasting.

[+Oltux72]

34 minutes ago, trav said:

you are arguing semantics here. your definition of heavily invested may differ from mine.

No. Take the vision of the Radiants flying to the village under attack. It mattered whose Plate was retracted.

[+mdross81]

12 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Definitely a relation. Read the Ars Arcanum at the end of RoW, Stoneshaping section:

"I have sent my best agent to embed among the Stonewards."

Could Zu be Shai? I can't imagine Brandon not turning Shai into a near immortal worldhopper.

I thought that Khriss's line about her best agent was likely referring to Nazh.

This naturally sent me down a rabbit hole looking for evidence that Zu is somehow Nazh in disguise. There's plenty of similarities. They share a fondness for adventure and both have a propensity for getting into trouble; they are both described as being fast and as proficient scouts, they both dislike being told what to do; they both prefer bluntness to politicking or speaking in riddles; they both tend to ignore warnings.

But in the end I think they just share these qualities because they both fit the model of a Stoneward, and that is why Khriss sent him to embed with that order. Despite Nazh's knack for blending into pretty much any society, it seems like too much of a stretch for him to be Zu.

Doesn't mean Shai couldn't still turn out to be Zu; I just don't think the Ars Arcanum reference is to her.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

On 11/22/2020 at 10:59 AM, Clarity-Art said:

When invading Urithiru through the tunnels below the tower, Raboniel refers to aluminum as "ralkalest" during a conversation with Venli. Ralkalest is a Selish term for aluminum, originating from the Rose Empire. It's mentioned in The Emperor's Soul. This is a really small detail, but given that it's incredibly dangerous to travel to Sel through the Cognitive Realm, I wonder how the term reached Raboniel. We know Hoid has visited Sel, that he spent some time in the Rose Empire, and that he's interacted with the Fused before. Could the term predate Sel and Roshar as we know them today? Is Hoid messing with us again? Am I spitballing like crazy?

I literally just made a post about this . As I’m a audio book listener I thought I heard Rayalesk . 
 

my theory was that Aluminum was the body of Adonalsium . So perhaps Ralker or something similar is the vessel of Adonalsium . I thought it was saying Rayaledk , implying that it’s the body of Rayse . My theory is baseless , it was just a guess 

       Now that I know that what they call aluminum on Sel . Maybe it’s created when Odium splinters a shard like on Sel , threnody , Roshar . It’s also on Scardrial . And while Odium has not been there . Ruin and Preservation have been splintered before . 
       I think the name is an important key ! You are right about that . When we see anything close to Ralkalest we will finally know it’s Origans

[CogitoErgoArclo]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I literally just made a post about this . As I’m a audio book listener I thought I heard Rayalesk . 
 

my theory was that Aluminum was the body of Adonalsium . So perhaps Ralker or something similar is the vessel of Adonalsium . I thought it was saying Rayaledk , implying that it’s the body of Rayse . My theory is baseless , it was just a guess 

       Now that I know that what they call aluminum on Sel . Maybe it’s created when Odium splinters a shard like on Sel , threnody , Roshar . It’s also on Scardrial . And while Odium has not been there . Ruin and Preservation have been splintered before . 
       I think the name is an important key ! You are right about that . When we see anything close to Ralkalest we will finally know it’s Origans

Two WoBs that I can find on this point: 

 

Quote

XMikethetrikeX

Is aluminum the godmetal of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

Quote

Aesicar

Was aluminum around before Adonalsium was Shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

So definitely a possibility, but my instinct is that Adonalsium’s god metal would be...Adonalsium.

All the other god metals are “a solid manifestation of a Shard of Adonalsium’s investiture”  So like the Shards themselves, they are fragments of his power. So combine all 16 god metals, and I don’t think your getting aluminum out of that, but could be possible. 
 

I think it’s a bit more likely aluminum is a deliberate part of Adonalsium’s grand design. Something seeded by God at the beginning of all things because he knew mortal beings would need something to level the playing field between them and Shards run amok. Something to hide them from the eyes of gods, something to move investiture from one place to another, something to hide a weapon that can kill a god. 

 

[Stormgate]

17 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

I wasn't saying turn aluminum into something else.  I was saying to use a Soulcaster to MAKE aluminum.

I would like to reference a certain part in Words of Radiance, during Shallan's flashbacks. She receives, bargains with, and strangles her father with a necklace made of aluminum, which is described as being only made possible by Soulcasting. 

[CogitoErgoArclo]

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. Shallan got an aluminium necklace as a gift from her father and it was stated that it was valuable because it had to be made by soulcasting. She tried to use it to pay off her brother's gambling debts.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

I would like to reference a certain part in Words of Radiance, during Shallan's flashbacks. She receives, bargains with, and strangles her father with a necklace made of aluminum, which is described as being only made possible by Soulcasting. 

Again, I could be wrong, as I don’t have access to the text of Dawnshard. But I don’t believe we have seen “on screen” anyone actually soulcasting something into aluminum. My understanding is people in world assume it is soulcast, as that’s how they get most all of their metals, and it doesn’t seem to occur naturally outside of meteorites. And the people (Horneaters) selling Aluminum to them for ridiculous prices, are protecting one of their most valuable commodities by not correcting that assumption. 
 

supported by this WoB: 

Quote

Questioner

So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place?

Brandon Sanderson

...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting?

Questioner

In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant.

Brandon Sanderson

Don't take what she says at 100% truth.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

If we actually see a Soulcaster making aluminum in Dawnshard this can be put to rest, but it’s my understanding that this is not the case. 

[Stormgate]

 

3 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

 

Again, I could be wrong, as I don’t have access to the text of Dawnshard. But I don’t believe we have seen “on screen” anyone actually soulcasting something into aluminum. My understanding is people in world assume it is soulcast, as that’s how they get most all of their metals, and it doesn’t seem to occur naturally outside of meteorites. And the people (Horneaters) selling Aluminum to them for ridiculous prices, are protecting one of their most valuable commodities by not correcting that assumption. 
 

supported by this WoB: 

If we actually see a Soulcaster making aluminum in Dawnshard this can be put to rest, but it’s my understanding that this is not the case. 

I'd like to point out that what Sanderson is correcting is not that Soulcasting can make aluminum, but that it's the only way to get it. Aluminum being unfamiliar might make it difficult to Soulcast compared to other metals, but the way I read it is simply indicating that there are other ways to get it. I respect that it might be impossible to Soulcast, but I haven't seen much evidence to doubt that it is. 

[CogitoErgoArclo]

23 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

 

I'd like to point out that what Sanderson is correcting is not that Soulcasting can make aluminum, but that it's the only way to get it. Aluminum being unfamiliar might make it difficult to Soulcast compared to other metals, but the way I read it is simply indicating that there are other ways to get it. I respect that it might be impossible to Soulcast, but I haven't seen much evidence to doubt that it is. 

Totally true. And definitely why it and other WoBs are unraveling my brain a bit. 
But my instinct here is that he’s deliberately talking around it.
Most likely saving it for the small reveals that we’re getting in RoW: i.e. “Ralkalest”, fabrial mechanics. 
And I’m speculating: bigger reveals later where we’ll see Ralkalest/aluminum has been an intrinsic part of the economy of the cognitive realm and eventually the entire (spacefaring) cosmere. 
 

Edited December 3, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[seriodor]

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Totally true. And definitely why it and other WoBs are unraveling my brain a bit. 
But my instinct here is that he’s deliberately talking around it.
Most likely saving it for the small reveals that we’re getting in RoW: i.e. “Ralkalest”, fabrial mechanics. 
And I’m speculating: bigger reveals later where we’ll see Ralkalest/aluminum has been an intrinsic part of the economy of the cognitive realm and eventually the entire (spacefaring) cosmere. 
 

Chapter 48 of Words of Radiance, Shallan tries to sell her necklace that is made of Aluminum to a store clerk and he tells her it isn't worth anything because it can only be made through Soulcasting. Idk if Brandon was saying not to trust that the necklace is Aluminum,  because it pretty clearly is,  or if he meant don't take the word of some store clerk. Either way, the dude thinks it's aluminum and he says that you can bring it into existence by soulcasting. It sounds like Brandon just meant that it wasn't exclusive to soulcasting.

[CogitoErgoArclo]

4 hours ago, Stormgate said:

 

I'd like to point out that what Sanderson is correcting is not that Soulcasting can make aluminum, but that it's the only way to get it. Aluminum being unfamiliar might make it difficult to Soulcast compared to other metals, but the way I read it is simply indicating that there are other ways to get it. I respect that it might be impossible to Soulcast, but I haven't seen much evidence to doubt that it is. 

 

25 minutes ago, seriodor said:

Chapter 48 of Words of Radiance, Shallan tries to sell her necklace that is made of Aluminum to a store clerk and he tells her it isn't worth anything because it can only be made through Soulcasting. Idk if Brandon was saying not to trust that the necklace is Aluminum,  because it pretty clearly is,  or if he meant don't take the word of some store clerk. Either way, the dude thinks it's aluminum and he says that you can bring it into existence by soulcasting. It sounds like Brandon just meant that it wasn't exclusive to soulcasting.

I think my larger point here is getting missed. So I’ll try to clarify. 

There are two questions we don’t have clear answers to, that are crucial as Rosharans move into the larger Cosmere: 

1. Does Aluminum occur naturally on Roshar? 
 

2. Can soulcasters create aluminum? 
 

However they’re answered, it’s going to change our understanding of Roshar’s relationship to Shadesmar, and the other Shardworlds. Specifically, Scadrial. 
Which I think is definitely something Brandon would be very careful about revealing.  

Basically, I’m curious how Rosharans are going to get aluminum moving forward, as it is going to catalyze their own Industrial/technological revolution, and then we’ll get all the juicy economic drama of Shardworlds importing/exporting through the cognitive realm and possible colonizing and extracting aluminum from planets. 

[Frustration]

18 hours ago, trav said:

Shardblades are god metal. so are the Honorblades.
since Aluminium interacts with Shard and Honorblades like they were regular swords I always assume its another god metal. or the god metal.
its impossible to be pulled or pushed with Allomancy. like heavily invested items.
its also pretty odd that it can be allomantically burned while it resists every other form of investiture base actions. god metals can be burned.

I doubt it can be created by soulcasting (by conventional means) if it resists getting soulcasted from. it would make aquisition of Aluminium way too easy.

apparently this applies to other god metals aswell. it can not be created by soulcasting and it heavily resists getting soulcast from.

additionally Adonalsium has the god metal name pattern.

I'd be surprise if Aluminium did not turn out to be Adonals (-iums) god metal. or at least a Shards god metal.

Every other shard-metal is fictional, in addition Aluminum doesn't just resist investiture, it negates it, and twists it in weird ways.

[+Oltux72]

54 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

1. Does Aluminum occur naturally on Roshar? 

Not in economic quantities as a pure metal. The chemical properties of aluminium in the Cosmere are the same as in our world. Hence it is found as aluminium oxide. But to have any kind of rock without aluminium is hard. Aluminium's rareness in the Cosmere is a function of its backwards technology, not geology. You need electricity in large scales to make aluminium cheaply.

54 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

2. Can soulcasters create aluminum? 

Yes. At the latest by Navani's airships aluminium is a metal important to the war effort. Of course they asked a Soulcaster to make a few dozen kilograms, just to experiment now. They'd have noticed.

54 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

However they’re answered, it’s going to change our understanding of Roshar’s relationship to Shadesmar, and the other Shardworlds. Specifically, Scadrial. 
Which I think is definitely something Brandon would be very careful about revealing.

Aluminium may be among the things traded through Shadesmar. But as a novelty item, not in bulk in modern times. And it may actually be among Roshar's exports. That planet can easily export a few tons of gold or platinum.

54 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Basically, I’m curious how Rosharans are going to get aluminum moving forward, as it is going to catalyze their own Industrial/technological revolution, and then we’ll get all the juicy economic drama of Shardworlds importing/exporting through the cognitive realm and possible colonizing and extracting aluminum from planets. 

Aluminium as an element is extremely abundant. Electricity is the issue.

[CogitoErgoArclo]

@Oltux72

All good points, but based on what I would argue are false assumptions, 

1. You’re assuming the stone of Roshar is similar to stone on earth. It is definitely not. It’s a continent grown by God who’s ecology is dependent on investiture, a naturally occurring element that interferes with investiture might be an issue.

2. You’re assuming the aluminum for  the airship came from soulcasters. I would argue the aluminum is more likely to have been stripped from the base of Urithiru, and is why it’s missing during RoW. 
 

3. You’re also assuming the airship needs a lot of aluminum, which I don’t think it does. It just needs strips in the right places. 
 

4. You’re assuming the abundance and ubiquity of Aluminum in our world translates to the Cosmere. It definitely may be as easy to find in the Cosmere, but every story that we’ve seen it mentioned it has a magic system that it directly interferes with. Making it, I would argue, the single most valuable commodity in the Cosmere. Other than maybe stormlight. If Rosharans can export it, there will definitely be a ready market. 

5. If it is abundant in the Stone of Roshar, we are going to run into some serious issues if the Rosharans try to mine it. The stone of Roshar seems to be alive and sapient and there are already taboos on mining, which is why they soulcast most of their metals. And why, I would argue, everyone assumes you can soulcast aluminum. The mining is also a pretty good candidate for why the Spren left the Singers so long ago.  
 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[trav]

6 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

2. You’re assuming the aluminum for  the airship came from soulcasters. I would argue the aluminum is more likely to have been stripped from the base of Urithiru, and is why it’s missing during RoW. 

^

although I came to think of something. Atium could be ironpulled and steelpushed while Aluminium resists. so it behaves differently to a god metal in at least 1 way.

[+Oltux72]

45 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

@Oltux72

All good points, but based on what I would argue are false assumptions, 

1. You’re assuming the stone of Roshar is similar to stone on earth. It is definitely not.

There are not many alternatives to sillicates that are not readily soluble in water, make sturdy stones and are not poisonous. Sillicates almost invariably contain aluminium and titanium in significant amounts. This could theoretically be different on Roshar, but then we wouldn't see abundant minerals containing aluminium. And we do see them. Emeralds for example are chemically speaking an aluminium compound.

45 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

2. You’re assuming the aluminum for  the airship came from soulcasters. I would argue the aluminum is more likely to have been stripped from the base of Urithiru, and is why it’s missing during RoW. 

For that specific airship maybe. In general they experimented with the metal on multiple sites.

45 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

3. You’re also assuming the airship needs a lot of aluminum, which I don’t think it does. It just needs strips in the right places. 

On the contrary. You are doing research in Urithiru. You need a few kilogramms of metal usually known to be made by soulcasting. You have a lot of soulcaster arounds. Do you spend a lot of your spheres on that or do you have a soulcaster make the metal?

45 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

5. If it is abundant in the Stone of Roshar, we are going to run into some serious issues if the Rosharans try to mine it. The stone of Roshar seems to be alive and sapient and there are already taboos on mining,

In Shinovar it is taboo. Not elsewhere. Otherwise there would be no point for a Thaylen trader to sell metal specifically made by soulcasting in Shinovar and feel a need to have prove that it was soulcast from organic material. And we have seen them do that. And stone houses are for the poor. They definitely quarry that stone. Soulcasting is expensive. We are just seeing so much soulcast housing because much of what we see are army camps.

 

[CogitoErgoArclo]

@Oltux72

1. Very true, but you’re again ignoring that we’re on a fantasy crab world where rock falls in liquid form from the sky. There is weird stuff going on. 
It definitely could be a part of the stones composition, but if there’s a planet in the Cosmere Brandon is going to stretch those rules on, it’s Roshar. 
 

2. Lining the base of Urithiru would take quite a lot of Aluminum, and like I said before, it is suspiciously absent. And it would not be hard for them to ship some to other locations via their controlled oathgates.  It’s also pretty suspicious that nowhere in the pretty intense exposition dumps do they mention the source of their newfound aluminum. I think that is deliberately playing on our assumptions for a reveal in book 5. 
 

3. They’re only doing small scale experiments, save for the Fourth Bridge. And have only been doing them for a few months at most. 
And no, they wouldn’t spend spheres on it. Or waste their soulcasters time, they would upcycle it from an nearby source, what they probably assumed was an art display at the base of the tower. 
 

4. It is taboo in Shinovar, for a reason. 
Non Radiant Humans can’t hear the stones, and so have been breaking those taboos. But now they are actively allied with the Spren again and they’re going to have some opinions on this. 
 Also: stone quarrying, cutting, shaping, and small scale mining, is completely different than the industrial scale operations they’re going to need as they advance technologically. Mining operations are ecological disasters on our world, what happens when you start tearing apart living stone and separating it into a material that resists investiture? Bad things I imagine. 

 

But I think we’re focusing too much on contrariness here, and again getting away from the crux of my original point: 

The trade between Shardworlds is going to be a key issue in the later books. And it feels to me like Brandon is setting up a resource war. 
Something along the lines of: Scadrial has aluminum but needs stormlight, Roshar has stormlight but needs aluminum. Interstellar war ensues. 
Or possibly: Rosharan Soulcasting has threatened Scadrial’s monopoly on aluminum, and it no longer has an easy way to pay for Stormlight/other forms of investiture. This pisses Kelsier off, Interstellar war ensues. 

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

But I think we’re focusing too much on contrariness here, and again getting away from the crux of my original point: 

Very well.

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

The trade between Shardworlds is going to be a key issue in the later books.

Yes, but that need not imply trade between every combination of reachable worlds. Relations may be so frosty that trade will be curtailed. Taldain for example may ban it for ideological reasons.

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

And it feels to me like Brandon is setting up a resource war. 

Yes.

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Something along the lines of: Scadrial has aluminum but needs stormlight,

Actually, what for? Scadrial looks like the world that does not need Stormlight. It gets interesting as soon as you can fuel Feruchemy with it. Failing that, I see no point. The world that really is the ready market for Stormlight would be Nalthis.

As far as aluminium is concerned there must be an alternate source in the Cosmere.

1. SA is before Era 2. Aluminium is still scarce on Scadrial
2. The Fused knew that there was aluminium under Urithiru. That makes it ancient. In fact it would predate the Lord Ruler.
3. It was found in the Rose Empire.

2 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Roshar has stormlight but needs aluminum. Interstellar war ensues. 

Well, no. Trade ensues. They'd go to war precisely because they seek the same thing: colonies

 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Actually, what for? Scadrial looks like the world that does not need Stormlight. It gets interesting as soon as you can fuel Feruchemy with it. Failing that, I see no point. The world that really is the ready market for Stormlight would be Nalthis.

Why would Nalthis care?

[DiePie]

58 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Why would Nalthis care?

The most obvious reason would be that it's an easier way of fueling the Returned than Breaths, but even still Fabrial technology (once a way of getting it offworld is discovered) would be a mahor Rosharan export, and would create a reliance on Roshar because it is the only place where you can get stormlight.