CogitoErgoArclo

Had not thought of that. Definitely not impossible. And interesting possibilities there, in that Endowment and Cultivation may be mixing investitures. Which fills me with much joy, even if I can’t think of a snappy name for their blended light. I think this is a bit more likely. The point about perfect pitch is particularly good. The shards have to all have their own tones, right? And it’s only because of the Singers, that we understand them as such. Since they’re evolved/grown to hear and interact with all 16 tones of Adonalsium. My understanding is the Tone is the Shard. The rhythms are the shards Intent interacting with all things physical and cognitive. Specifically; sapient and sentient beings, their intents, and emotions. Or maybe the Singers are literally hearing the Spiritual realm. Seems pretty likely Zahel (one of the foremost cosmere scholars) would be experimenting with the effects of tone on stormlight. He may even be able to perceive the Shards like the Singers do. I’m just hung up on Brandon’s use if the term “converting”. All of RoW was about “blending”, but changing one type of investiture to another strikes me as complicated and maybe pretty vital for a couple different planets.

Definitely makes more sense. I was operating under the assumption that he only had the big one left, but I can’t find anything to support that now. I probably just got too excited for the confirmation that it’s possible to covert stormlight to breaths. But how would one convert stormlight into breaths? Would it be similar to making Warlight?

@Necessary Ookla Thank you!

Oh definitely the figurative “dirty laundry” I was referring to in the title. Just a casual explanation of how Returned are made, and what they actually are, no big deal. I especially loved the language he used when describing the “soul mold”. Struck me as a very elegant description. @Necessary Ookla do you have the link there? Not doubting you, just curious to follow that thread. Makes it slightly less exciting to me, but is definitely in keeping with Vasher’s m.o. Still though, it was my understanding that Zahel only had his Divine breath on Roshar, was using stormlight to fuel it directly. So to me that suggests he’s figured out how to convert stormlight to breaths, which has huge implications!

Zahel and Kaladin (betwixt the sheets ): It wasn’t quite the full magic system vs. magic system combat that we’re craving. But it was so cool to finally see, and such a beautiful promise of things to come. But any thoughts on how Zahel seemed quite comfortable Awakening without verbal commands?

In pondering the Unmade and hunting through these forums, I ran across a really interesting theory about Ba-Ado-Mishram, and how she may have held the Dawnshard, or a Dawnshard, and that’s what allowed her to connect with the singers at a level she hadn’t before. There was also mention that maybe this inspired Dai-Gonarthis to head to Aimia to try to take the Dawnshard there for himself. This got me thinking: Did Dai-Gonarthis succeed in making contact with the Dawnshard? And did it Change him? Maybe into Cusicesh? I’m not the first to make this leap, but I think what we’ve learned about the location and nature of the Dawnshard make this much more plausible now. Edit: topic of inspiration:

I had the same thought after finishing RoW. But I was thinking they were the Spren of the Dawncities much like the sibling is the Spren of Urithiru. These Dawnspren would have been made of Adonalsium’s 16 Tones, or His Pure Tone. Hence the cymatic patterns of the Dawncities I hadn’t thought to connect them to the surges though, that fits nicely.

Been doing some Coppermind digging on Sel. And I found that one of their religions; one of their oldest religions, is known as Jesker. Spoilers for the Liar of Partinel: Could be nothing, as all of that story is subject to change. But I think it lends weight to the idea that “ralkalest” is a pre-shattering, Yolish term. Most likely kept in regular use by Hoid, Frost, and other folks in the cognitive realm.

Any idea how we ask the Mods to move threads? This thread is absolute gold, and would definitely benefit everyone by being on the spoiler board. The bit about ChayShan alone has huge implications for Kaladin.

Definitely could be a holdover from Yolen or a pre-shattering economy. I; personally, am very interested in the theory, but I am new and unsure of the etiquette on forums in general.

Freaking awesome idea. To riff on it a bit: could Rosharans contain the explosion to create a “nuclear” reactor and power anything from cities to Spacecraft?

One more thing I haven’t seen mentioned: Could we be seeing the effects of Kaladin becoming some kind of Windrunner Savant?

Really good point. There does seem to be a running theme about recognizing the agency of those around you, as part of growth in general.

@Golstar Really well said. I’ve always thought of Odium as a spiritual fire. The flame of Gods Passion(divine hatred) divorced from everything that gives it context, to paraphrase Frost I believe. And like a fire without any control, it consumes everything around it. Until it moves on, or dies from lack of fuel. I don’t think Ashyn and Braize were named by accident. They are the burnt and the burning. Ashyn is the end result of a planet that gives itself fully to Odium, it burned bright for a time, but now is a husk of ash. Braize is the result of a flame(Odium) constrained and controlled, and so burns it’s fuel slowly and sullenly, like a brazier of coals. And like a Flame; it creates a void or “negative pressure” for lack of a better term around the fuel that it is burning. I think what we’re seeing with Moash is just this. Moash is so Connected to Odium that he is used as a fuel source, but more so than most because he is actively and consciously channeling his emotions toward Odium. Moash’s intent and Odiums Intent are aligned. And the resonance between those Intents facilitates a greater consumption of emotion to fuel Odium, resulting in a more pronounced Void. I feel like this is connected to Moashs’ new name: Vyre. (Which obviously sounds like fire, in keeping with the theme) but translates as He Who Quiets. He quiets the Tones, Rhythms, and emotions of himself and others around him, acting as a channel to fuel Odiums flame. Seems to be some evidence of Titles having a particularly tangible effect on Roshar. Combine Vyre with El. And you’d have something like Vyrel ( sounds a lot like viral), which if we look to Raboniel for naming conventions, may mean something like Lord of Quite/Silence. A weighty title for a people who hear Shards as Tones and Rhythms. Edit: this may also be a sly set up for Autonomy in the back five. i.e. Odium uses the passions of others to fuel himself/protect the vessel from being consumed by the shard. Autonomy may be doing something similar. Consuming the autonomy of “lesser beings” to fuel the shards intent.

Actually, what for? Scadrial looks like the world that does not need Stormlight. It gets interesting as soon as you can fuel Feruchemy with it. Failing that, I see no point. The world that really is the ready market for Stormlight would be Nalthis. As far as aluminium is concerned there must be an alternate source in the Cosmere. SA is before Era 2. Aluminium is still scarce on Scadrial The Fused knew that there was aluminium under Urithiru. That makes it ancient. In fact it would predate the Lord Ruler. It was found in the Rose Empire These are the juicy bits! I can’t think of anything specific they could use stormlight for, outside of a stable replacement for ettmetal. But Kelsier wants it badly, and the Ghostbloods seem to have a plan for its use. 1. Still scarce yes. But Scadrial pre-catacandre was very cosmere aware and we have lots of hints that it was actively involved in the economy of the cognitive realm and probably had many worldhoppers. Aluminum could have been one of their exports. 2. I personally think this is evidence of Radiants and Fused actively trading in the cognitive realm before and during the Heraldic epochs. Also entirely possible through that knowledge exchange Radiant soulcasters learned to make aluminum in the first place. 3. The Rose Empire is the most fascinating to me at the moment. I’m not as familiar with Sel, as I am Roshar or Scadrial, but the word “ralkalest” sounds in my mind to be more Scadrian than Selish. It’s dangerous to get through the cognitive realm in Sel, but Hoid and the Ire seem to manage alright, so either it’s a natively Selish term that has diffused through the cognitive realm(via the Ire) or it’s a remnant of their trade with pre-catacendre Scadrial, and the term has been diffusing through the cognitive realm ever since Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial. And you’re totally right about trade coming before war, but I’d argue that they’re not mutually exclusive. Especially if we have a few cosmere Super Powers with some smaller players trading between them via the cognitive realm to survive. And yes! Colonies! They’re going to be key for extracting the resources these shardworlds need. Edit: to clarify, I am only excited about the narrative uses of colonies in the cosmere. Real world colonization is objectively awful.

@Oltux72 1. Very true, but you’re again ignoring that we’re on a fantasy crab world where rock falls in liquid form from the sky. There is weird stuff going on. It definitely could be a part of the stones composition, but if there’s a planet in the Cosmere Brandon is going to stretch those rules on, it’s Roshar. 2. Lining the base of Urithiru would take quite a lot of Aluminum, and like I said before, it is suspiciously absent. And it would not be hard for them to ship some to other locations via their controlled oathgates. It’s also pretty suspicious that nowhere in the pretty intense exposition dumps do they mention the source of their newfound aluminum. I think that is deliberately playing on our assumptions for a reveal in book 5. 3. They’re only doing small scale experiments, save for the Fourth Bridge. And have only been doing them for a few months at most. And no, they wouldn’t spend spheres on it. Or waste their soulcasters time, they would upcycle it from an nearby source, what they probably assumed was an art display at the base of the tower. 4. It is taboo in Shinovar, for a reason. Non Radiant Humans can’t hear the stones, and so have been breaking those taboos. But now they are actively allied with the Spren again and they’re going to have some opinions on this. Also: stone quarrying, cutting, shaping, and small scale mining, is completely different than the industrial scale operations they’re going to need as they advance technologically. Mining operations are ecological disasters on our world, what happens when you start tearing apart living stone and separating it into a material that resists investiture? Bad things I imagine. But I think we’re focusing too much on contrariness here, and again getting away from the crux of my original point: The trade between Shardworlds is going to be a key issue in the later books. And it feels to me like Brandon is setting up a resource war. Something along the lines of: Scadrial has aluminum but needs stormlight, Roshar has stormlight but needs aluminum. Interstellar war ensues. Or possibly: Rosharan Soulcasting has threatened Scadrial’s monopoly on aluminum, and it no longer has an easy way to pay for Stormlight/other forms of investiture. This pisses Kelsier off, Interstellar war ensues.

I’m not a geologist, so I’m defining “naturally” in my head as being chemically available in the planets crust, but needing a technical process to extract, except in very specific circumstances. And we know the Lord Ruler had it harvested from the Ashmounts, so this leads me to believe it occurs like it does on Earth. Good point about the creation of Scadrial though, definitely lends weight to the argument that you can soulcast other things into it, and that it only resists investiture when it is refined. Not entirely convinced though, on account of this WoB:

@Oltux72 All good points, but based on what I would argue are false assumptions, 1. You’re assuming the stone of Roshar is similar to stone on earth. It is definitely not. It’s a continent grown by God who’s ecology is dependent on investiture, a naturally occurring element that interferes with investiture might be an issue. 2. You’re assuming the aluminum for the airship came from soulcasters. I would argue the aluminum is more likely to have been stripped from the base of Urithiru, and is why it’s missing during RoW. 3. You’re also assuming the airship needs a lot of aluminum, which I don’t think it does. It just needs strips in the right places. 4. You’re assuming the abundance and ubiquity of Aluminum in our world translates to the Cosmere. It definitely may be as easy to find in the Cosmere, but every story that we’ve seen it mentioned it has a magic system that it directly interferes with. Making it, I would argue, the single most valuable commodity in the Cosmere. Other than maybe stormlight. If Rosharans can export it, there will definitely be a ready market. 5. If it is abundant in the Stone of Roshar, we are going to run into some serious issues if the Rosharans try to mine it. The stone of Roshar seems to be alive and sapient and there are already taboos on mining, which is why they soulcast most of their metals. And why, I would argue, everyone assumes you can soulcast aluminum. The mining is also a pretty good candidate for why the Spren left the Singers so long ago.

Where though? I’m genuinely curious. It is stated in the books multiple times, but like I said before: by non-expert characters. To Rosharans, Before RoW, aluminum was just a shiny, rare metal that was pretty much useless. Much of WoK and WoR, characters are repeating lies they’ve been told, or assumptions they hold personally or culturally. And much of OB and RoW are about shattering those assumptions. We have no “on screen” proof of a soulcaster making aluminum, the only confirmed source of aluminum we have is (Dawnshard spoiler) So still, no true answer either way, but I feel it lends weight to the argument that they have to get it from offworld. Regardless, it’s abundance on Roshar has been kept deliberately obscured, And I think the more interesting discussion lies in extrapolating the effects of its abundance/scarcity on the Rosharan/Shadesmar economy.

@Honorless We’ve been that hashing out on a different thread, and both of those are non-answers. Part of my point is that all the WoBs about Aluminum on Roshar are deliberately phrased to allow our assumptions to get the better of us.

So in chatting on another thread I’ve realized we have two unanswered questions that are vital for Roshar as it moves into the larger Cosmere: 1. Does aluminum/ralkalest occur naturally on Roshar? 2. Can soulcasters turn other things into Aluminum? I can’t find any clear answers either way, only assumptions made by in world, non-expert, characters. But the answers are crucial for Rosharans as they move toward their technological/industrial revolution. Personally, I think it does not occur naturally, and cannot be made by soulcasters. And that it may only occur naturally on Scadrial. I feel that makes for really interesting dynamics between Scadrial and Roshar moving forward. However these questions are answered though, it’s going to change our understanding of the economy of Shadesmar, and our understanding of the conflicts between Shards/Shardworlds in the future. Edit:

I think my larger point here is getting missed. So I’ll try to clarify. There are two questions we don’t have clear answers to, that are crucial as Rosharans move into the larger Cosmere: 1. Does Aluminum occur naturally on Roshar? 2. Can soulcasters create aluminum? However they’re answered, it’s going to change our understanding of Roshar’s relationship to Shadesmar, and the other Shardworlds. Specifically, Scadrial. Which I think is definitely something Brandon would be very careful about revealing. Basically, I’m curious how Rosharans are going to get aluminum moving forward, as it is going to catalyze their own Industrial/technological revolution, and then we’ll get all the juicy economic drama of Shardworlds importing/exporting through the cognitive realm and possible colonizing and extracting aluminum from planets.

I think that is most likely the case. But, bit of a crackpot theory: I wonder if Zahel could have given Kaladin (and/or Syl) a few breaths (or something similar using stormlight instead of breaths) while they were fighting at the beginning of RoW. He seemed to be able to awaken just fine without verbal commands during the fight. And he knows how to only transfer a portion of his breaths. Maybe he added a bit of extra investiture to one or both of them. And if he’s using Stormlight to fuel the transfer, it could have Connected them to Honor’s power in a way that they weren’t before. Possibly helping to explain Syl’s memories returning, and the “Child of Tanavast” bit.

Totally true. And definitely why it and other WoBs are unraveling my brain a bit. But my instinct here is that he’s deliberately talking around it. Most likely saving it for the small reveals that we’re getting in RoW: i.e. “Ralkalest”, fabrial mechanics. And I’m speculating: bigger reveals later where we’ll see Ralkalest/aluminum has been an intrinsic part of the economy of the cognitive realm and eventually the entire (spacefaring) cosmere.

Again, I could be wrong, as I don’t have access to the text of Dawnshard. But I don’t believe we have seen “on screen” anyone actually soulcasting something into aluminum. My understanding is people in world assume it is soulcast, as that’s how they get most all of their metals, and it doesn’t seem to occur naturally outside of meteorites. And the people (Horneaters) selling Aluminum to them for ridiculous prices, are protecting one of their most valuable commodities by not correcting that assumption. supported by this WoB: If we actually see a Soulcaster making aluminum in Dawnshard this can be put to rest, but it’s my understanding that this is not the case.