CogitoErgoArclo

Two WoBs that I can find on this point: So definitely a possibility, but my instinct is that Adonalsium’s god metal would be...Adonalsium. All the other god metals are “a solid manifestation of a Shard of Adonalsium’s investiture” So like the Shards themselves, they are fragments of his power. So combine all 16 god metals, and I don’t think your getting aluminum out of that, but could be possible. I think it’s a bit more likely aluminum is a deliberate part of Adonalsium’s grand design. Something seeded by God at the beginning of all things because he knew mortal beings would need something to level the playing field between them and Shards run amok. Something to hide them from the eyes of gods, something to move investiture from one place to another, something to hide a weapon that can kill a god.

Ah, totally right. But still to this point: It definitely leaves room for things to be soulcast into aluminum, but if the Horneaters and/or the Ghostbloods were trading for it through the perpendicularity(s) in the peaks, they would definitely just say that it was soulcast and no one would question it.

I’m embarrassingly invested in this question now, and I’m really confused. I usually trust the Coppermind implicitly, but I’m not sure I agree with it on this. The references on both articles on the Coppermind lead back to these two WoBs And while he doesn’t specifically disagree with the second questioner, I read this as him very specifically and artfully not answering if it they can soulcast other things into Aluminum. Especially with the addition of this WoB: I could definitely be overthinking it, and this may have been argued and layed to rest already, but it really sounds to me like he deliberately hasn’t confirmed that.

Good point about the mixing. This WoB seems to lend more weight to aluminum oxide occurring naturally: But he mentions it as a “historical oddity” so I’m not entirely convinced. But I think it also lends more weight to them trading for it, as they don’t have the process to refine it themselves.

Was thinking the same thing, and I’m furiously searching the Arcanum, but I can’t find a WoB with that particular wording. My instinct is no, since Soulcasting is transformation via investiture, and the end state would be just as resistant.

All true, and I’ll concede you may be entirely right. But: My biggest issue is it seems strange to have a naturally occurring metal that interferes with investiture, on a planet where the entire ecology is dependent on investiture. My thought is Garnets on Roshar may not be true garnets as we would know them, but are being named for their hue so we recognize them. As for the amount of Ralkalest at Urithiru: 1. The Ancient Radiants and the Fused were definitely Cosmere aware and there is no way someone wasn’t trading in Shadesmar during the Heraldic epochs. The Ire, the Nalthian merchants, the Ghostbloods, and Raboniel’s knowledge of Taldain’s sands prove this, at least in my mind. 2. ( just thought of this) All or much of that ralkalest is now missing from the base of Urithiru, and may be the source of most of what Artifabrians are using currently. Although I think the Fused are definitely getting it through Shadesmar. You’re right about aluminum not being “rare” on earth. In the sense that the actual mineral is abundant, but the technical knowledge of the extraction is pretty rare, I would posit. Edit: Just to clarify: I agree completely with your first post, but thought to expand on it a bit. The word “ralkalest” most likely originated on Sel, the Ire are a group of invested “merchants” that trade in fabrials and investiture. And they definitely come from Sel. The Iriali are confirmed immigrants from another world, who are cosmere aware, and also use the term ralkalest. Most likely, the Ire have been calling it ralkalest as they’ve been trading through the cognitive realm. And it has become the common term used in the worldhopping economy.

Navani definitely does not mention where it comes from, and I think that deliberate on Brandon’s part, but the first reference to Aluminum that I can remember on Roshar is when Hoid brings Azure sheets of it in Kholinar. It’s possible it’s naturally occurring, just very rare(like on earth) but it’s also possible they could be getting their supply from offworld (the Ire, or the Ghostbloods- possibly how they fund themselves), and no one has really thought to ask where it comes from(also like on earth). I think this is why Mraize called it an advance on future payments, he’s promising her a steady supply of aluminum, which Scadrial has an abundance of. Also, They might be able to replicate what Hoid had brought them with soulcasting, although that seems unlikely/impossible. As for the sand: that was definitely my first thought, but sand doesn’t “clink” in a bag. Unless that is a property of invested sand that I’m missing.

Please correct me if this has been debunked, but my reading of this was ralkalest/aluminum is not naturally occurring on Roshar. And therefore must come to the planet via trade through the cognitive realm. The Ire are a group of “merchants” in the cognitive realm, specifically linked to Sel, and seem to be more Cosmere aware than most. I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to say the Iriali are somehow linked to the Ire, and that they have been spreading knowledge of the Cosmere, ralkalest, and possibly the metal itself for a very long time. The clinking bag Mraize gives Raboniel seems to me to be direct evidence of this, as I assume it’s filled with aluminum but could also be a god metal.

My best guess for for the shattered plains is the splintering of Honor, or the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram. But yeah, I definitely think they’re connected. Edit: had forgotten the plains were shattered at Aharietiem, so the pattern is most likely due to use of a Dawnshard, like on Ashyn but on a smaller scale. Or maybe caused by Ba-Ado-Mishram, and one of the reasons the radiants chose to capture her/them later.

Oathgates. Damn. I’d forgotten about the oathgates. Definitely possible the cymatic patterns formed when the oathgates/oathgate spren were created. But also possible the oathgates are more like the Romans building roads to and from conquered cities. And may be one of the reasons the Unmade cannot inhabit those cities anymore. As for Sesemalex Dar: Definitely possible there were more Dawncities/Dawnspren than 9, maybe the ones not turned ran and hid(possibly Cusicesh). Or maybe a later, none sapient copy created with surgebinding.

Ah, but we only hear about capturing them from the Listeners. Who deliberately cut themselves off from their culture and history. So I think their conceptualization is inherently flawed, which is why it was so hard for them to find new forms.

I don’t know if I agree that they “capture” spren within their gemhearts. I think it would be more accurate to say they form a symbiotic bond with a spren that resides in their gemheart. Because the spren is benefiting from its time in the gemheart. It influences the Singers mindset and form, so that they are more likely to engage in activities that bring about the emotions or natural processes the spren is drawn too/feeds off of.

I think Cusicesh is more likely a younger sibling of the...Dawnspren...for lack of a better term. Maybe a spren of tides, or barometric pressure, and possibly involved with the storm wardens. Also, I don’t think Kasitor is considered a Dawncity.

I can’t get this idea out of my head, and I haven’t been able to find folks talking about it, so I thought I’d put it to the hive mind. If this has been debunked already or is being discussed elsewhere please let me know. Also, strap in, because this gets long and rambling. Possibly mad. Theory: I think the Unmade are the Dawncities (Dawnspren) In the same way the Sibling is Urithiru. I think that Odium unmade the Dawncity spren, most likely with their consent, by offering them more freedom in the physical realm, but at a cost he played down. And the Singers either helped Odium accomplish this, or choose to attune his Rhythms anyway after seeing it happen, which I believe most other Spren would see as horrifying and unforgivable. So reasons I think this: Brandon’s world building, and foreshadowing are masterful. And anytime we get big exposition dumps and insight into the structure of a shardworld or the Cosmere (pretty much all of Oathbringer and RoW) he’s usually setting up mechanics for later stories and reveals. So we learn in RoW: The Shards are Sound. They’re vibrational energy that can be perceived as a Tone as well as light (Iridescent Tones anyone?) People can blend those tones to create new harmonious or dissonant tones/light, and Shards can blend their tones/light to shape the stone of Roshar and with Intent create a massive sapient spren. Those spren can be Unmade. Exactly like we see Raboniel doing to the sibling, but Odium would be doing this at a much greater scale, and more quickly. Add to that to all the comparisons between Urithiru and Kholinar’s strata in Oathbringer. So here’s some wild speculation: Before the Shattering, Adonalsium creates the Rosharan system, and the planet of Roshar. He is God, and as God created an ineffable and infinite universe. But maybe, the part of Adonalsium that is sentient and personal, wanted to create an Eden. A place of perfect harmony and symbiosis where the perfect tones of Adonalsium ring through the cosmere. Regardless, he makes the system and the planet, and it is the Garden of Eden, for crabs. As part of this elegant and divine ecological system Adonalsium uses his pure tones to shape the Dawncities, which is why they look like cymatic patterns, and in that shaping gives the Dawncities sentience and effectively creates the first spren. Or maybe creates it all simultaneously, because he’s God. So crab folks have a place to live, the continent itself talks to them and cares for them (there has to be a spren of Roshar, the closest real world analog I can find is Roshii, Japanese for old teacher. And often associated with a Turtle. Shelled creature. That cannot be a coincidence when the other two planets are called Ashyn and Braize- the burnt and the burning, respectively.) Tangent aside, these folk are happy as clams. They’re singing to their stones, and the stones are singing back. All is peaceful, and harmonious and in perfect symbiotic stasis. And probably so, so, boring. As Raboniel tells us, and shows us with her actions, the Singers are more inclined to work within natural systems, than push the boundaries of the systems. Enter Hoid, and/or the 16 original vessels, I think as the Cosmere developed, life found ways to travel and eventually stumbled upon this idyllic crab world and Hoid got to dance with a Dawnsinger. (Although this could definitely have happened post shattering) I think that their visits to Roshar may have seeded the jealousy and ambition that led to the shattering So Hoid and the vessels leave, shatter Adonalsium, scoop up some god bits and ascend to limited divinity, hoping to go make they’re own little paradises. Then they realize, oh damn, we did not understand what we were getting into. They agree to go their separate ways, and play with their own toys in their own rooms. Hoid gets no toys. Honor and Cultivation make their way back to Roshar, because it calls to their respective Intents, and set up shop. But it’s chugging right along because it was designed by God to be a perpetual investiture machine, and doesn’t really require him to be “present”. Honor and Cultivation start experimenting and copying what Adonalsium did with the original spren(Dawncities), and from this we get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the True Spren. Enter Odium. He’s been wandering around the Cosmere, splintering shards, like one does. Sees Honor and Cultivation and says: I am going to break their toys, and then break them. He enters the system, sets up shop on Ashyn, and either creates human life there, or he appropriates humans that settled there pre or post shattering. Odium pushes these humans’ passions to such an extent that they break their planet. Honor and Cultivation allow refugees to come to Roshar, and set up a nice ecological reserve for them, they just need to follow some rules. The Serpent is in the Garden. I think allowing the humans onto Roshar, gave Odium the foothold he needed to work around Honor and Cultivation. Probably through some Connection mumbo-jumbo. Because it definitely allowed Odium to become a pure Tone of Roshar, which I don’t think he was entirely just being in the Rosharan system. Odium becoming a pure tone that the Singers could hear would definitely influence their feelings about him and would allow him to spread his promises and suggestions, like the proverbial serpent from Genesis. And convincing 9 of the most powerful spren on the planet; the Dawncities themselves, to embrace their passions and take his light/tone, would be very thematically consistent with Odiums Intent. (Also don’t think the similarities between the Unmade and the Nazghul are coincidence. 9 unmade, 9 nine rings of temptation, 9 kings, come on.) So Odium corrupts and unmakes the Unmade, and probably creates the Fused at the same time with similar promises. Then he pushes those humans still loyal to him to start a war. Honor, Cultivation, and most of the spren, see this as a horrific betrayal. They swear off the Singers and convince those humans disillusioned with Odium to fight against him for the good of the planet. Honor copies Odiums idea with the Unmade but tweaks it a bit to create the Heralds. Ishar uses his knowledge of Connections to create the Oathpact. Which binds Odium to Braize, and probably stops him from being able to unmake any more spren, or make more Fused. But the Heralds constantly bending/breaking their oaths while intrinsically bonded to the god of Oaths create the opening needed to splinter Honor. Similar to what Odium says to Dalinar when they’re hashing out the details for the contest of champions. Whew, ok. Done now. Timeline may be a bit wonky, but I think it fits.

Heralds with literal tin foil hats. Please Adonalsium, let this be real.

On my second read. First time through was like rain on dry, cracked earth. I really loved it. And I suppose a pen would do just fine.

You’ll need a significant amount of stormlight to convince me otherwise. In all seriousness, I’ve been haunting the Coppermind and watching the Shardcast for years, and really appreciate all the time and effort you folks put in to document the Cosmere and Brandon. It really adds a sense of real world weight, to these already incredibly weighty books. Thank You. You folks are gentlepersons and scholars.

I was hoping this would be a hot take, but @ShardplateJoe III beat me to it. Just wanted to expand on it in this thread, because in listening to the Dawnshards Shardcast, I think @Argent and I are thinking along similar lines. We have a real word example of 4 fundamental forces that shaped the cosmos, they’re usually described very simply, and their names are misleading but the concepts are absolutely mind boggling. 4 fundamental forces are: Gravity- The Curvature of Spacetime Electromagnetism- Light, energy, and particularly: electromagnetic stasis. The Strong Force- Binding things at an atomic level. The Weak Force- radioactive decay, or entropy. (Sort of) Keep in mind, I’m no physicist, and my understanding is flawed, but as a lover of stories I think these are perfect for the 4 fundamental Commands of an omnipotent being, used to create reality itself. For example: Strong Force- “Bind” (I’m not sure I agree giving the Dawnshards a single word name, but I’ll play the game) Weak Force- “Change” I think it fits thematically with Rysn, as on its face it seems weak, but is not at all on closer inspection. Also It’s takes unstable nuclei and transforms them into lighter nuclei, which seems on brand for both a merchant, and Chirri-chirri. Electromagnetism- “Stasis” most likely Hoids dawnshard, and very analogous to “let there be light” Gravity- “Connect”, the one that’s not like the others because it defines the relationship between all matter and energy, and allows us to perceive Time. I definitely think Brandon could take some artistic liberty and combine gravity and the strong force, which would let him have the fourth be “Live” or something like that. But I think it would be more satisfying if life came about naturally as an interaction between these forces, since I think that would be the Intent of a totally Omnipotent being. Now for the juicy/tinfoil bit: I think when he says they’re the Commands of a God, he’s being pretty literal. My understanding of Adonalsium is he is/was GOD in the transcendental sense. I think it’s the Iriali who call him The One? So he IS all of the universe. All matter, all energy, all light, all life, all of time. And it’s antithesis as well. But as the Iriali tell us: The One knew everything, but had experienced nothing, so the one became many, to experience all things. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to see Brandon blending what’s known of the Big Bang and religious philosophy. That in mind, there had to be a point in “time” when in was just Adonalsium. No Yolen, No Hoid, No Rayse, no original vessels. Just Adonalsium, a sapient point of infinite Power with absolutely nothing outside of itself. So in order to make something outside of itself, it would have to Make something External. It would need to cast out, and use parts of its infinite self to craft the infinite structure of Reality. Hence: “Dawnshard” literally the first bits of Adonalsium, outside Adonalsium. Similar to, but fundamentally different from Shards as we know them, because the Intent behind each of the four is the fundamental structure of the Cosmere and it’s perpetuity. As opposed to the shattered Mind, Body, and Soul of the being itself. If, and big if, that is true I think the process behind creating the Dawnshards is analogous to a human speaking. If we as humans wish to make an intent of ours external, the process that takes the least amount of energy is speaking, we create vibrations that travel through a medium, and can be received and (possibly) understood by another being. But even if no one, or nothing hears those words, the vibrations/energy from those words still exist. Multiply that concept by the infinite power of a god, and... I think Adonalsium “spoke” his Commands, in order to make his Intents External. Energy(or investiture)with four different, but Connected, Intents left him, and the interactions between them make up the fundamental fabric of the Cosmere. And I think the Dawnshards are the places in the Cosmere where the vibrational energy of those Commands have coalesced and are tangible. The infinite “words” of an infinite being, that give structure to all we know. And as I’ve heard you folks talk about before, investiture seems to become conscious in great enough concentration. Which would explain why it seems to have some consciousness, and why it seeks to connect with things that can give it intent.

YES!! Been searching for this, specifically from someone actively studying physics. I’m no physics student, but as soon as I read that there are 4 Dawnshards I could not get this idea out of my head. I’ve always viewed Brandon’s deep cosmere lore, as a quite beautiful synthesis of physics, religion, and fantasy. Mostly because, as you pointed out, he’s said as much at least once. But what else could 4 primal commands be?! Strong force- bind Weak force- change Electromagnetism- stasis (most likely the shard Hoid held) Gravity (the one different from the others)- connect - or more specifically the relationship between all matter in the cosmos/cosmere, in which we perceive time. And he could very well take some artistic liberty and blend Gravity and the Strong force, so he has one left over to call Life, or something along those lines. Although I’d prefer if life was simply a consequence of those forces interacting, which Adonalsium would definitely be aware of, being all places and all times and whatnot.