Long Game 68: Studies of Ashyn

[|TJ| he/him]

4 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Pretty sure that would be an action tracker, not a scan, since it didn't reveal what action I took. I got access to an aura scan(Transportation) at the beginning of D2 that lets me tell whether a particular player is from Ashyn, and Gears was not. Symptoms are a deathly fever and, unfortunately, death three cycles after infection(so I would die N4 untreated). Silber dying means there's probably not a chance to save me or patient zero anyway, but I did hope to accomplish something before dying.

Can you use this during the day?

[Kasimir he/him]

Okay, so someone is going to yell at me in PMs, for this, but since Ash already decided to paint a rusting target on my head by noting I'm shaping up to be an information hub, what the heck. I'll just do it. (Thanks Ash, doesn't sound very Village of you, does it?)

Here's the thing. I'm a vote scanner. Have been from D1. It's due to my background, which, no, is not Physics, and is not History. This is why I kept saying I can confirm what Illwei said - it wasn't just because of his disease description. It's also because I scanned the Mist lynch N1 and saw two votes on it from Illwei. And this is why I did the kasyana thing with regard to lynches and just voted on myself on D1. Part of it is due to kasyana, but I also wanted to create a tie between Illwei and someone else and see what vote shenanigans happened. As the cycle progressed and other ties shaped up, I decided it was fine leaving it be as I didn't have the bandwidth to pay attention closely anyway since I was at work.

I told two players about my ability. One of them was the deceased Gears and we agreed the obvious target for N2 would be the lynch on Pyro. (This is partly due to how my ability works, which you'll be able to figure out shortly.)

I'm going to leave you with my results:

Quote

Pyro (4): Gears, Lotus, Lahilt, Devotary.

Either we have a role that can legitimately manipulate votes by shifting a no vote to a vote (but do we have evidence of this at this point, apart from this very lynch?), or Devotary used the double vote ability to cast a hidden vote. I strongly suspect Devotary is a double-voter in line with the reasoning I have outlined, and will shortly deal with the various challenges people listed. [Note: Based on this piece of evidence alone, it's possible Devotary is a Tension user instead, it'd just mean that Devotary and Lotus both got punted by RNGesus onto Pyro. I asked @Elkanah (but be nice to have confirmation again) that even if a person doesn't vote, using Tension means that your no-vote will be put randomly by RNGesus.]

What does this mean in the bigger picture? 

I dislike how much Devotary is popping up repeatedly. Some of this could be due to genuine bad luck, w.r.t. Sart and myself. But all the same, that's a heck of a bunch. Aura scanning seems valuable, but I also distrust how this pops up at the last minute, and it could plausibly belong to either alignment. Sart says he's an action scanner, and while I know the Village has some target scanners, it seems to me to be distinct from each other.

So no. I'm genuinely sorry if you're Village but my votes aren't moving. 

@Araris Valerian: I flagged Devotary's name twice because I have a double vote. That's literally what part of this cycle has been banging on about. I wonder why you didn't mention it?  

---

Objections time:

10 hours ago, Elandera said:

Thank you for this summary!

I do need to participate more. I'm mostly trying to get my feet under me at the moment. The mechanics seem interesting, for sure.

First thoughts @Kasimir and @Devotary of Spontaneity, from what I see, I think I side with Devo on this one. I think it's more plausible to have deduced from available information and come up with the conclusion that it was an optional double vote. Kas, it seems you're suggesting the only way she'd be able to pin it down is if she were teammates with either you or Illwei, and in that case, she'd basically just outed two of the teams with a question that wouldn't need to be answered.

There is the possibility that there's a third person with that particular ability, but I think that would be way too much double vote potential for a relatively small player list, especially with all the other seeming vote manipulations out there in the world.

Wrong. Her teammate could have that particular ability, or she could have. I've flagged since D2 that I've been in contact with a third person with the disease and their description of the disease and their understanding of the ability checked out. In addition, they claim to have been the third voter on Lahilt. To me, the circumstances imply that player is unlikely to be lying about their disease. (Alignment, eh. Not sure.)

Here's the issue. Why would a background role like mine exist without a surfeit of vote-manipulation? My results indicate that there's either:

A) Devotary is a double-voter: there are four double-voters
B ) Devotary has Tension: there are three players with Tension, one of whom is deceased
C) Devotary was manipulated: there is an Elim with the ability to redirect votes [ @Elkanah are votes considered actions?] 

If C is true, I'd consider this to be deliberate framing, since all of these are so convenient. 

14 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

The last two possibilities are out because both involve removing a vote. The second possibility wouldn't be something you would use. Not necessarily impossible, but less likely. Both the first and third possibilities can be considered an optional double vote. I thought the odds of one of these being true high enough that I guessed optional double vote when I asked.

The last possibility is out. The second-last is not: all Illwei said is he didn't remove the vote on me. This would just mean there is more vote manipulation than we would have expected, which is hardly a bad revision of beliefs to make in a blackout game where we don't know the distro at all. GMs have felt free to present the Village with a vote manipulation bonzana before - the balance is we got a ton of Smokers.

In light of Lotus, and especially in light of your vote actually being on Pyro, I'm still suspicious.

Edited to add 2: If you're all realising the implication is I told two players about my ability during C1, yep!  Welcome to Hotel kasyana, Wilson already o.O-ed me over it. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Kasimir

[|TJ| he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

@Araris Valerian: I flagged Devotary's name twice because I have a double vote. That's literally what part of this cycle has been banging on about. I wonder why you didn't mention it?  

I think he's asking why you voted two times two times  Here:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, Kasimir said:

Edited to add: Devotary Devotary. No last minute vote this time? Aren't you a fan of them? What's changed?

And here: 

15 hours ago, Kasimir said:

tldr; many things do not make sense, I wanted to hold things back a bit and to listen to what Devotary had to say, I'm going to lay my cards on the table now. I'm suspicious of you, for the reasons I've spelled out. Devotary Devotary

So a lot of reveals in this cycle, which seemingly coincidentally (and weirdly) seems to focus on Devotary. Vote scanner is not something I've seen before, but definitely not a stretch with the amount of vote manipulators in the game. I see no reason for Kas to lie unless a team of (Kas+Sart) are bussing Devotary (which I find unlikely as I don't think there is any need to bus right now as there was literally no suspicion on Devotary before this cycle from others).

Coming to the possibility of vote manipulations, there's this idea floating in my head since D2 lynch (that Kas did not mention). I find it weird that in both the lynch cycles, there was a tied vote, and one of the lynchee had vote manipulation to save themselves. I was toying with the idea that Lotus is covering for a teammate who manipulated the vote to save her. In this case, Lotus does not actually have vote manipulation but pretends she does so that we do not doubt others for doing that. Sure, there's a 20% chance (there were 5 players with one vote on them so chance that her vote was reassigned to Pyro again was 1/5), it's still weirdly convenient. Now with Devotary's vote apparently on Pyro, it's surely a possibility that Devotary would have manipulated the vote to save Lotus and Lotus claimed it to cover for Devotary. Something to ponder about. Of course we'll get to know if it's true or not if Devotary gets lynched (which like a definite possibility now), but yeah, if Devotary ends up with Pyro-type vote, it's definitely worth to follow it up with a Lotus lynch. 

Edit: @Sart, can you clarify if you have target scan or action scan? 

Edited August 10, 2020 by TJ Shade

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, TJ Shade said:

So a lot of reveals in this cycle, which seemingly coincidentally (and weirdly) seems to focus on Devotary.

Far too many reveals for my taste!
And too many about Liba
All we've heard since we came
Is Devotary's name!

[Elandera she/her]

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Wrong. Her teammate could have that particular ability, or she could have. I've flagged since D2 that I've been in contact with a third person with the disease and their description of the disease and their understanding of the ability checked out.

(This is what happens when I don't read anything that happened before I joined )

That still seems like a lot of double votes, but who am I to argue? Especially since the whole game seems ripe with vote manipulations. 

[Kasimir he/him]

28 minutes ago, Elandera said:

(This is what happens when I don't read anything that happened before I joined )

That still seems like a lot of double votes, but who am I to argue? Especially since the whole game seems ripe with vote manipulations. 

I mean, as I said previously, even if you're unconvinced, this game still has a ton of vote manipulators either way you slice it, since Devotary voted on Pyro.

Option 1: 4 double-voters, 2 people with Tension, plus whatever happens to Vapor's vote. 

Option 2: 3 double-voters, 3 people with Tension, Vapor vote issue. 

Option 3: 3 double-voters, 2 people with Tension, Vapor vote issue. 

Notice that in each scenario, we have minimally 6 vote manipulators, with 7 possible as well. That's so much vote manipulation that I'd say it's better to just say, that's a lot of vote manipulation. 

[Mat he/him]

9 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Pretty sure that would be an action tracker, not a scan, since it didn't reveal what action I took. I got access to an aura scan(Transportation) at the beginning of D2 that lets me tell whether a particular player is from Ashyn, and Gears was not. Symptoms are a deathly fever and, unfortunately, death three cycles after infection(so I would die N4 untreated). Silber dying means there's probably not a chance to save me or patient zero anyway, but I did hope to accomplish something before dying.

I mean, this technically would be possible. If this were the case Sart would probably be telling the truth. But this:

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Either we have a role that can legitimately manipulate votes by shifting a no vote to a vote (but do we have evidence of this at this point, apart from this very lynch?), or Devotary used the double vote ability to cast a hidden vote. I strongly suspect Devotary is a double-voter in line with the reasoning I have outlined, and will shortly deal with the various challenges people listed. [Note: Based on this piece of evidence alone, it's possible Devotary is a Tension user instead, it'd just mean that Devotary and Lotus both got punted by RNGesus onto Pyro. I asked Elkanah (but be nice to have confirmation again) that even if a person doesn't vote, using Tension means that your no-vote will be put randomly by RNGesus.]

Makes that less likely. I'm with Kasimir on this. Very sorry if you're village, but it's not looking that way. I think my vote will be staying. 

[Kasimir he/him]

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Option 3: 3 double-voters, 2 people with Tension, Vapor vote issue. 

Slight addendum as I overlooked something I mentioned. In the context of Option 3 specifically, we'd also have to postulate someone who can shift votes entirely. Which means a grand total of 8 vote manipulators in Option 3, as compared to Options 1 and 2. This also potentially complicates our D1 lynch, with regard to what went down for the votes on me. My point is that if you find 4 double-voters awful, Option 3 should be even worse because Option 3 basically implies at least 8 out of 19 players are vote-manipulators. By this point, Elk and TGK would've had to be Oprah with vote manipulation abilities:

Spoiler

(Warning: gif below spoiler cut.)

[|TJ| he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Slight addendum as I overlooked something I mentioned. In the context of Option 3 specifically, we'd also have to postulate someone who can shift votes entirely. Which means a grand total of 8 vote manipulators in Option 3, as compared to Options 1 and 2. This also potentially complicates our D1 lynch, with regard to what went down for the votes on me. My point is that if you find 4 double-voters awful, Option 3 should be even worse because Option 3 basically implies at least 8 out of 19 players are vote-manipulators. By this point, Elk and TGK would've had to be Oprah with vote manipulation abilities:

You're basically adding numbers at this point lol  Howw? 3 double voters are (Illwei, Kas, Player #3) and 2 Tensors are (Pyro and Devotary). Where did you get 3 (2 if you consider the Vapor Vanish) more vote manipulations? xD 

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, TJ Shade said:

You're basically adding numbers at this point lol  Howw? 3 double voters are (Illwei, Kas, Player #3) and 2 Tensors are (Pyro and Devotary). Where did you get 3 (2 if you consider the Vapor Vanish) more vote manipulations? xD 

Long story short, I said 7 at first. But then I was thinking of some of the bigger complications with regard to one specific interpretation of Vapor's ability. If you think that Vapor is manifesting the 'shift vote' ability, then 7. If you think it's something else we've seen, like Tension, then we have to postulate yet another vote-manipulator to cancel out any net effect with Vapor. As Gears said, it's the virtual particle problem all over again.

[Frozen Mint she/her]

Uh, so it's been a crazy week with the power outage and then the wifi outage and moving my sister to Virginia and I may have completely forgotten about the game. Working on getting caught up.

[Ashbringer he/him]

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Okay, so someone is going to yell at me in PMs, for this, but since Ash already decided to paint a rusting target on my head by noting I'm shaping up to be an information hub, what the heck. I'll just do it. (Thanks Ash, doesn't sound very Village of you, does it?)

...All I meant by “information hub” was that you were PM’ing everyone... which thanks to Pyro makes me nervous.

Anyway, EVERYONE VOTE DEVOTARY. There’s too much vote manip going around for it to be purely Village, and now there’s two different accusations that Devotary is an Elim. We can’t lose a cycle on this, which means we need to have a solid majority.

[Mat he/him]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

...All I meant by “information hub” was that you were PM’ing everyone... which thanks to Pyro makes me nervous.

Anyway, EVERYONE VOTE DEVOTARY. There’s too much vote manip going around for it to be purely Village, and now there’s two different accusations that Devotary is an Elim. We can’t lose a cycle on this, which means we need to have a solid majority.

Sorta makes me nervous how explicitly you are pushing this. If Devotary flips village I may return to suspecting you.

Note: I do not find this a likely possibility  but I want to note all possible outcomes. I generally agree with your statement.

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

...All I meant by “information hub” was that you were PM’ing everyone... which thanks to Pyro makes me nervous.

PMing everyone isn't the same as being an information hub. Being an information hub implies people tell me things and give me information, especially confidential information. Which has happened insofar as I know who Player #3 is and what they can do. Announcing information hubs tends to get them killed to disrupt Village organisation, and so Eliminators can try to co-opt trust networks. I'm not saying you're necessarily an Elim just for this, but I'm saying it's definitely something helpful to them, which therefore makes me side-eye you.

30 minutes ago, Frozen Mint said:

Uh, so it's been a crazy week with the power outage and then the wifi outage and moving my sister to Virginia and I may have completely forgotten about the game. Working on getting caught up.

Welcome to Cycle 3  [Edited to add: Tell me about it...]

Spoiler

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Kasimir

[Vapor she/her]

I'm really behind, I'll vote later.

Will somebody give me a TL;DR?

[Ashbringer he/him]

On this cycle or in general?

This cycle, a bunch of votes piled up on Devotary due to her mistyping "target pool" vs "suspect pool". Then a counter lynch developed on Lotus, until Sart revealed that he'd seen Devotary using a kill action on Gears. So now we're all trying to lynch Devotary. Also, Kasimir can apparently scan who manipulated votes (and is a little irritated that I said he was an information hub) and saw Devotary manipulating the lynch on Pyro.

In general... this is still probably the most impactful thing. If Devotary is good, then Sart's an easy next lynch or night kill. Possibly (but probably not) Kasimir as well.

So vote for Devotary!

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

9 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Can you use this during the day?

If I could use it during the day I would, especially since my last scan wouldn't accomplish anything due to my dying that same night. Either there's more condition removers than we've seen or Silber was supposed to survive a lot longer.

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Here's the thing. I'm a vote scanner. Have been from D1. It's due to my background, which, no, is not Physics, and is not History. This is why I kept saying I can confirm what Illwei said - it wasn't just because of his disease description. It's also because I scanned the Mist lynch N1 and saw two votes on it from Illwei.

I told two players about my ability. One of them was the deceased Gears and we agreed the obvious target for N2 would be the lynch on Pyro. (This is partly due to how my ability works, which you'll be able to figure out shortly.)

I'm going to leave you with my results:

Pyro (4): Gears, Lotus, Lahilt, Devotary.

Either we have a role that can legitimately manipulate votes by shifting a no vote to a vote (but do we have evidence of this at this point, apart from this very lynch?), or Devotary used the double vote ability to cast a hidden vote. I strongly suspect Devotary is a double-voter in line with the reasoning I have outlined, and will shortly deal with the various challenges people listed. [Note: Based on this piece of evidence alone, it's possible Devotary is a Tension user instead, it'd just mean that Devotary and Lotus both got punted by RNGesus onto Pyro. I asked Elkanah (but be nice to have confirmation again) that even if a person doesn't vote, using Tension means that your no-vote will be put randomly by RNGesus.]

Sart says he's an action scanner, and while I know the Village has some target scanners, it seems to me to be distinct from each other.

---

A) Devotary is a double-voter: there are four double-voters
B ) Devotary has Tension: there are three players with Tension, one of whom is deceased
C) Devotary was manipulated: there is an Elim with the ability to redirect votes [Elkanah, are votes considered actions?] 

If C is true, I'd consider this to be deliberate framing, since all of these are so convenient. 

The last possibility is out. The second-last is not: all Illwei said is he didn't remove the vote on me. This would just mean there is more vote manipulation than we would have expected, which is hardly a bad revision of beliefs to make in a blackout game where we don't know the distro at all. GMs have felt free to present the Village with a vote manipulation bonzana before - the balance is we got a ton of Smokers.

In light of Lotus, and especially in light of your vote actually being on Pyro, I'm still suspicious.

 

I was already dead, you didn't need to say more things, especially things that don't seem like they're true. So you had a background that for some reason gave you an ability immediately, and it gives you the ability to see who's votes ended up on a particular player? I don't have a double vote, I don't have tension, there is no reason my vote could have ended up on Pyro unless a vote shifter put it there.

You think there's an action tracker ability that lets someone see who a player targeted and also an ability that lets you see what action a player took, and that Sart has the latter? I guess it's not impossible there could be both but Sart definitely doesn't have the latter.

Why would votes be considered actions, and how is that relevant?

The D1 vote count was

Illwei (3): TJ Shade, Frozen Mint, Straw
Ashbringer (2): Matrim’s Dice, Devotary
Mist (4): Sart, Illwei, Araris
Kasimir (1): Vapor, Kasimir
Devotary of Spontaneity (1): Lahilt
Lord_Silberfarben (1): Ashbringer
StrikerEZ (1): The Young Pyromancer

There are only two vote manipulations, the extra vote on Mist and the missing vote on you. If Illwei didn't remove the vote from you, I have to conclude that Illwei's power doesn't remove votes. When I asked you for the specifics of your power, I didn't feel the need to include every minisculely likely possibility. When I say

Quote

Is your/Illwei's ability an optional double vote, is that how it works?

there's no reason for me to add 'or maybe Illwei's power removed a vote from someone but coincidentally a vote shifter moved a no vote onto that same person so we didn't notice any change or a vote was removed but there's is a real double voter who isn't Illwei/Kas, etc.'. I'm not trying to be exhaustive, I'm giving my best guess for how Illwei's power works and asking for clarification.

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Anyway, EVERYONE VOTE DEVOTARY. There’s too much vote manip going around for it to be purely Village, and now there’s two different accusations that Devotary is an Elim. We can’t lose a cycle on this, which means we need to have a solid majority.

I shall take this opportunity to apologise again to Elkanah for getting him killed almost this exact same way despite being a claimed safe role. That was worse though because we really should have believed you when we never got a Dowser counterclaim and here there aren't safe roles for me to be.

[Ashbringer he/him]

8 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

You think there's an action tracker ability that lets someone see who a player targeted and also an ability that lets you see what action a player took, and that Sart has the latter? I guess it's not impossible there could be both but Sart definitely doesn't have the latter.

Do you have a reason for saying this, besides claiming you didn't kill Gears?

15 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

I shall take this opportunity to apologise again to Elkanah for getting him killed almost this exact same way despite being a claimed safe role. That was worse though because we really should have believed you when we never got a Dowser counterclaim and here there aren't safe roles for me to be.

... is this directed at me or at Elkanah? You quoted me but I can't tell if you're trying to tell me something.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

1 minute ago, Ashbringer said:

Do you have a reason for saying this, besides claiming you didn't kill Gears?

... is this directed at me or at Elkanah? You quoted me but I can't tell if you're trying to tell me something.

If Sart had the ability to tell what action someone took, he would have known that I didn't kill Gears.

It's directed at Elkanah, your post just reminded me to do so.

[---]

I'm going to keep my vote on Devotary because honestly it's the best lead we have right now I guess, but the more people talk about it the more I kinda doubt it. 

@Sart is there anyone you've talked to with the same ability as you? also was it a "watching devotary and saw them kill gears", "watching devotary and saw them visit gears" or a "watching gears and saw devotary visit them"? I keep seeing them lurking but not ever saying anything
Or is there anyone here that can confirm his ability? (not that that would be a great idea I guess but also none of the claimers have died so far famous last words) 

It kinda doesn't matter either way, because we're still going to Lynch devotary, which is why i see continued discussion about them as kind of suspicious...even though I'm doing it...

anyways

[Mat he/him]

5 minutes ago, Illwei said:

'm going to keep my vote on Devotary because honestly it's the best lead we have right now I guess, but the more people talk about it the more I kinda doubt it. 

Yeah, I'm with you there. Devotary's argument wasn't bad, but I don't want to be singled out as the sole person to switch off if she flips elim, and it is the best lead we have atm. @StrikerEZ, @Straw, @TJ Shade, @Kasimir, you are are also voters of Devotary. What are your thoughts of the argument she made? I might switch off, if the reasoning for it stays this tight. Both sides of the argument are plausible and possible and I don't know what to think. Makes me want to just lynch Devotary anyway, as it would give us good info on Sart/Kas. But then I don't know, because an alignment scanner is a very good role that we wouldn't want to mislynch.

[Sart he/him]

17 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I'm going to keep my vote on Devotary because honestly it's the best lead we have right now I guess, but the more people talk about it the more I kinda doubt it. 

@Sart is there anyone you've talked to with the same ability as you? also was it a "watching devotary and saw them kill gears", "watching devotary and saw them visit gears" or a "watching gears and saw devotary visit them"? I keep seeing them lurking but not ever saying anything
Or is there anyone here that can confirm his ability? (not that that would be a great idea I guess but also none of the claimers have died so far famous last words) 

It kinda doesn't matter either way, because we're still going to Lynch devotary, which is why i see continued discussion about them as kind of suspicious...even though I'm doing it...

anyways

Was watching Devotary. I saw that they used the Elim Kill. Technically speaking, I didn't see who they visited. I only saw the action they took. 

[Mat he/him]

11 minutes ago, Sart said:

Was watching Devotary. I saw that they used the Elim Kill. Technically speaking, I didn't see who they visited. I only saw the action they took. 

Ah okay. That makes me much more inclined to trust you. Safe to say, I won't be switching off.

[Kasimir he/him]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

On this cycle or in general?

This cycle, a bunch of votes piled up on Devotary due to her mistyping "target pool" vs "suspect pool". Then a counter lynch developed on Lotus, until Sart revealed that he'd seen Devotary using a kill action on Gears. So now we're all trying to lynch Devotary. Also, Kasimir can apparently scan who manipulated votes (and is a little irritated that I said he was an information hub) and saw Devotary manipulating the lynch on Pyro.

In general... this is still probably the most impactful thing. If Devotary is good, then Sart's an easy next lynch or night kill. Possibly (but probably not) Kasimir as well.

So vote for Devotary!

You're lucky I checked the cycle before going to bed. I can't scan who manipulated votes. I can scan a person who got voted on and see who actually voted on them. This is why I can only tell you who voted on Pyro in the final count, not what their abilities were, or what sort of manipulation put Devotary's vote and Lotus's vote on Pyro. In addition, I can use this ability either during the Day or during the Night, but I am restricted to using it once per cycle and only to the previous lynch. E.g. I am no longer able to scan anyone from the D1 lynch, but I am able to scan the D2 lynch this cycle, and have been considering sending in an order to scan the votes on Lotus instead. (Once D3 ends and night falls, I will only be able to scan the D3 lynch, so if I judge it's best to scan Lotus, I should scan the Lotus lynch rn.)

Huh. Deja vu. Maybe it's a glitch in the Matrix.

1 hour ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

I was already dead, you didn't need to say more things, especially things that don't seem like they're true. So you had a background that for some reason gave you an ability immediately, and it gives you the ability to see who's votes ended up on a particular player? I don't have a double vote, I don't have tension, there is no reason my vote could have ended up on Pyro unless a vote shifter put it there.

K.

1. I claimed my background on D1 already, not my problem if y'all don't read  It also certainly explains what I was doing on D1. I'm also not really sure how you can take a look at the number of secret vote manips in this game and not expect there to be either a Smoker role or some role that lets the Village figure out what's going on.

2. If you don't believe this, you're free to lynch me and find out.

3. What's the point of keeping it secret anymore? It's not about you. For one, if you really were vote manipulated, which I doubt right now, but if you were, I think it's a safe inference that the vote manipulator is an Eliminator, and a second, weaker inference might be that the Elim team has a vote scanner of their own, or at least, are in some way aware that this is a possibility, such that they felt safe in incriminating you. In which case, revealing doesn't give the Elims more ability info than they already had. In any case, Ash already painted a nice target on my head by identifying me as an info hub, and we have two alleged role blockers, one of whom is also an action/target scanner. I was always going to be on the kill list, though a vote scanner isn't as valuable as an action/target scanner-cum-roleblocker, so I might be safe for this Night. This game is a target-rich environment, which ironically, lends me some matter of safety. There is literally no point as a Villager in keeping a secret for the sake of keeping a secret. The primary reasons had always been: safety, and don't alert the Elims, and I think both can be safely thrown out the window. I don't fetishise secrecy. You think my analysis has holes? Fantastic! So I'll throw the info out and let the Village chew over the data and make whatever inferences they can. And this at least lets people make an informed decision before they decide if they want to take their votes off someone roleclaiming alignment scanner.

4. Since we're throwing charges of convenience and falsehoods around, you know what's convenient and doesn't seem like it's true?

>About to get lynched because of a scan claim
>Hey I'm an alignment scanner
>Also I have an expiration date, it's N4.

1 hour ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

You think there's an action tracker ability that lets someone see who a player targeted and also an ability that lets you see what action a player took, and that Sart has the latter? I guess it's not impossible there could be both but Sart definitely doesn't have the latter.

Why would votes be considered actions, and how is that relevant?

No. Someone roleclaimed to me that they have a target scanning ability. Sart may or may not have this same ability. Or it might be action scanning. It's not clear from what Sart said, and Sart read the thread but hasn't responded to clear things up.

Why wouldn't they? You mean GMs aren't able to class actions differently? Is there a standard way of classifying actions and votes that GMs are not permitted to deviate from that I'm unaware of? The reason this matters actually helps you out, so I'm impressed you're indifferent to it. It's more likely that there is a redirect ability rather than 3-4 different flavours of vote manips, again because of sheer numbers. If votes are classed as actions, a player with a redirect ability could simply hijack your vote too. I was PAFO-ed when asking if role-blockers could stop someone from voting.

1 hour ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

There are only two vote manipulations, the extra vote on Mist and the missing vote on you. If Illwei didn't remove the vote from you, I have to conclude that Illwei's power doesn't remove votes. When I asked you for the specifics of your power, I didn't feel the need to include every minisculely likely possibility. When I say

there's no reason for me to add 'or maybe Illwei's power removed a vote from someone but coincidentally a vote shifter moved a no vote onto that same person so we didn't notice any change or a vote was removed but there's is a real double voter who isn't Illwei/Kas, etc.'. I'm not trying to be exhaustive, I'm giving my best guess for how Illwei's power works and asking for clarification.

Nice attempt to change what I'm arguing, but I'm not biting. My point is that at least two players have given the wrong guess, if you count the person I've PMed, alongside Lotus. And as a player, I certainly would be wary of assuming given it's a blackout game. It's not about whether you should have precisified; it's about the fact that you got on it directly given circumstances that should not have permitted you to do so.

I'm happy to agree it's not a deductive argument, and can't therefore insure truth. But in light of:

• You having been scanned as killing Gears
• (or: You having been scanned as targeting Gears, which is still a question in its own right: why Gears of all people?)
• You having actually had your vote on Pyro

It's a lynch I feel more strongly than the other putative alternative, Lotus, and you can be sure that I'll likely be checking her lynch this cycle, before it fades away.

Edit: Ninjaed, thanks for clarifying @Sart!

Edited August 10, 2020 by Kasimir

[Elandera she/her]

Devotary

It's nowhere near close enough to lylo for Start to lie about that scan. If anyone has protection, please cover him.