Long Game 43: Under the Banner of Adonalsium

[Stick. she/her]

Aplogies for not posting this turn yet - school suddenly got really time demanding and I got a little busy. All should be fine now though.

(I'm going to start responding to the posts as I read through the thread, so sorry if some of the things I say have already been addressed to)

I'm kind of glad to see that I have to read through only three pages and not ten like last cycle. 

On 20/03/2018 at 1:08 PM, Fifth Scholar said:

Yay! Nice* Shards were released! 

*some restrictions may apply *cough*DOMINION*cough*

Actually, this isn’t too bad. I’m kind of surprised Odium didn’t kill anyone last night, but I’m not really complaining. Ruin blew up Braize, suggesting perhaps a team that wants a monopoly on kill actions? I’m not sure. I need to read back through the old thread. For now, things look much better than they did yesterday, and if we can release the remaining three Shards tomorrow, we can finally worldhop to wherever we please.

Why are you surprised? You yourself said that you suspect Odium to have fallen into the hands of a villager. Did you expect a villager to start vigilante killing right away?

On 20/03/2018 at 1:12 PM, randuir said:

Also, Braize exploded. If Ruin is taking requests, I'd like to see Taldain explode next or see Ruin be put back into containment, that's fine too. In fact, I'd probably prefer Ruin to get put back into containment or passed around for a bit of timer-reset, but I realize that might be a vain hope at this time.

We probably shouldn't pass Ruin around, lest it gets handed to an elim by accident. And I also just realised that 3 elims per evil team is enough for them to target a Shard in containment and successfully get one, but putting Ruin back into containment does seem preferable over its Vessel overusing it and gaining their own win con, reducing the number of villagers.

On 20/03/2018 at 1:12 PM, randuir said:

I'd appreciate it if you could fix this, but I can understand wanting to focus on RP as well (it's what I tried to do in AG4). If possible, try to find a good balance.

@Steeldancer you could always talk game stuff in form of RP.  It's actually really fun, but also sorta challenging. Sart does it really well.

On 20/03/2018 at 1:12 PM, randuir said:

There's also the claim that he forgot to submit an action N0 (or did he ), which is just weird. It's probably something elim!steeldancer might have avoided saying just because it attracts the wrong kind of attention though.

 I agree with this. But like. IKYK.

18 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I will second Rand. Trust groups, bad. Also, why does everyone have PMs when I haven't seen a single one? Me sad 

I don't have PMs either.  But honestly, I doubt many of us do.

17 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Blowing up Braize doesn't make much sense for a villager. Sure, killing is scary, but Braize's killing power is relatively more accessible to regular villagers than anyone else.

Somebody (Straw, I think?) suggested Ruin to blow Braize up, IIRC.

15 hours ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

I think this game is very hard for the elims to win.  However, since I can win with most/all Shards and Khriss easily, my main goal is eliminating Hoid and co.  So, I will have to vote on Fifth Scholar. He is likely converted, considering he is a nearly confirmed villager.

If I were on either of the elim teams, I honestly wouldn't convert somebody like Fifth as I'd expect the other team to target them for conversion and I may end up wasting a night action. But it's IKYK. IKYKs everywhere.

15 hours ago, randuir said:

 

15 hours ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

 

I think this game is very hard for the elims to win.  However, since I can win with most/all Shards and Khriss easily, my main goal is eliminating Hoid and co.  So, I will have to vote on Fifth Scholar. He is likely converted, considering he is a nearly confirmed villager.

That could be the case, but it isn't that far-fetched an IKYK that the elims would not recruit him because he's such an obvious conversion. In fact, I'd say its far more likely that they converted someone that's been flying under the radar

 

Basically.

2 hours ago, randuir said:

I know that I'd said I'd create a short-list of the people I'd convert if I was an elim this game, but after a first attempt at that list it contained about half the players. I've put it int eh spoiler tag, but it's not much use until I can narrow it down more.

  Hide contents

Young Bard
Arinian
Steeldancer
Jondesu
Droughtbringer
MonsterMetroid
Megasif
Sart
_Stick_
Drake Marshall
 

*is offended  Although I actually agree with most of that list. I'm not so sure about Bard though. His earlier posts gave the indication that he may be a Vessel and elim!me certainly would've been sceptical about converting him. And I dont agree with my own name being there, of course.  What about you though, Rand? You've been doing a lot of analysis and have generally been helpful but that is somehow making me really paranoid.  I highly doubt that you are a convert but you may be...others  (khriss/hoid). I'll have to look at your posts thoroughly before pointing fingers though.

29 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Quick question;  I may have missed this reading through the thread, but do we have any solid or even semi-solid proof that Pyro is survival?

I mean, I don't see why he'd lie. But like I said before, if they were lying I doubt the real Survival would choose to counterclaim. I kinda believe Pyro's claim because his posts on Day 1 (the ones before he claimed) really seemed to suggest he had a Shard and well...*shrug

A vote to some soon-ish. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by _Stick_

[Elbereth she/her]

3 hours ago, Hemalurgic Headshot said:

@Elbereth I will do so, but currently I’m not in a position where I can pull together notes on most of the players. I’ll be able to fulfill your request after I get back from school, but that will be 8 hours or so. I understand that’s not ideal, I’m sorry. And no, this is not a stalling tactic.

That’s absolutely fine. I’m not asking for a response immediately. I’m not even asking for notes on both of the players. I’m asking for your thoughts about the game and beyond ‘I’m not evil’, because this far this cycle you have failed to provide any. 

48 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Quick question;  I may have missed this reading through the thread, but do we have any solid or even semi-solid proof that Pyro is survival?

Also, even if they are survival, what's the problem with killing them?  So far they haven't really offered any reason that I should trust them.  If they are survival, I'm not sure I want them to have the shard, as their actions seem to be primarily leaning towards the Elim side of things.

We don’t have proof, no. No one’s counterclaimed, which is potentially telling, but there are possible reasons Survival wouldn’t counterclaim. Mostly it’s just that the way he said his claim seemed honest. We don’t know that it is, but it’s a decent guess. 

And we haven’t yet discussed killing him, just because it’s be sort of annoying to do - particularly with Braize gone. Though we could certainly be more certain of his role if he survived the lynch. 

19 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

*is offended  Although I actually agree with most of that list. I'm not so sure about Bard though. His earlier posts gave the indication that he may be a Vessel and elim!me certainly would've been sceptical about converting him. And I dont agree with my own name being there, of course.  What about you though, Rand? You've been doing a lot of analysis and have generally been helpful but that is somehow making me really paranoid.  I highly doubt that you are a convert but you may be...others  (khriss/hoid). I'll have to look at your posts thoroughly before pointing fingers though.

Te second half of this bit strikes me as off. Specifically, you’re trying to draw attention and suspicion to a very good player  without outright saying you think yourself that he’s suspicious. Which is exactly what an eliminator would want to do in order to make him less trusted/get rid of him without implicating themselves. 

[DeTess she/her]

1 hour ago, Magestar said:

Nope nope nope.

Bolded for clarity.

I didn't get Ambition, lol.  I would have loved to get Ambition, but right now I not only don't have a shard I have no investiture.  So yeah, I'd definitely make a good convert.  100% good idea.

I know you (claimed you) didn't get ambition, but they wouldn't have been able to convert you afterwards if you did. If they guessed correctly that you where going to use that bit if ambition's investiture to get two actions to increase your chances to get a shard, converting you last cycle would have made sense, as the conversion would hit you could get a shard, meaning it wouldn't get blocked, while still giving them a chance of recruiting a Shard. Given that you did attract some negative attention before that I don't think you're any more likely to be converted than the people I put on the list.

Edited March 21, 2018 by randuir

[Straw he/him]

Hmm. I’ll put my vote on The Sand Lord. I don’t want Autonomy to gain too much power, and everyone who votes on this aspect will get a free charge of Autonomy’s investiture, according to Seonid.

[Magestar he/him]

3 minutes ago, randuir said:

I know you (claimed you) didn't get ambition, but they wouldn't have been able to convert you afterwards if you did. If they guessed correctly that you where going to use that bit if ambition's investiture to get two actions to increase your chances to get a shard, converting you last cycle would have made sense, as the conversion would hit you could get a shard, meaning it wouldn't get blocked, while still giving them a chance of recruiting a Shard. Given that you did attract some negative attention before that I don't think you're any more likely to be converted than the people put on the list.

Yeah that would've been really smart.  The fact that they didn't in fact do that makes me rather more convinced of your innocence, at least for now.

4 minutes ago, Straw said:

Hmm. I’ll put my vote on The Sand Lord. I don’t want Autonomy to gain too much power, and everyone who votes on this aspect will get a free charge of Autonomy’s investiture, according to Seonid.

Hmm.  While, on the surface, this seems like a good idea, I feel like it could just end up being another no-lynch.  Pending other people's responses, though, I might end up doing it as well.  

[Droughtbringer]

14 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

Te second half of this bit strikes me as off. Specifically, you’re trying to draw attention and suspicion to a very good player  without outright saying you think yourself that he’s suspicious. Which is exactly what an eliminator would want to do in order to make him less trusted/get rid of him without implicating themselves. 

I disagree, as, a lot of the time as a Villager, I want to make a point known, but I don't necessarily want to cast suspicion directly onto a player that most people have a village read on, and assume is a Villager. It could be an elim tactic, but I read it much more as Stick not wanting to directly state that a main player is possibly an elim.

16 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

We don’t have proof, no. No one’s counterclaimed, which is potentially telling, but there are possible reasons Survival wouldn’t counterclaim. Mostly it’s just that the way he said his claim seemed honest. We don’t know that it is, but it’s a decent guess. 

If I was Survival I would not counterclaim. If everyone is focusing on Fake!Survival then Real!Survival is able to work out of the spotlight, and play behind shadows, where the fake one has the potential to take a fall, if needed or possible. Also, there is a chance that the real one would be attacked if he outed himself, as we would be split on who we trusted and he could end up dying; if I was the real Survival I would stay quiet.

5 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Hmm.  While, on the surface, this seems like a good idea, I feel like it could just end up being another no-lynch.  Pending other people's responses, though, I might end up doing it as well.  

I prefer to push for a lynch rather than work towards Ambition, for now; as the lynch gives us more information. If we ever decide that we don't have someone to lynch then I would suggest that we lynch the Aspects.

[Magestar he/him]

47 minutes ago, Droughtbringer said:

I prefer to push for a lynch rather than work towards Ambition, for now; as the lynch gives us more information. If we ever decide that we don't have someone to lynch then I would suggest that we lynch the Aspects.

Ambition?  Do you mean Autonomy?

And do you have any thoughts on who we should lynch?

[Droughtbringer]

Just now, Magestar said:

Ambition?  Do you mean Autonomy?

And do you have any thoughts on who we should lynch?

Yes. That.

 

And No, not currently. 

I'll be reading through the thread (focusing on day 2) And take notes and see what I come up with

[MonsterMetroid]

10 hours ago, Elbereth said:

23 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Well from what I can conclude I dont think Odium is in elims hands as I dont see any reason he wouldnt kill anyone if he was in elim hands, this doesnt mean he has completely village intentions though as he might have wanted to shatter cultivation and it got released before he could. Ruin seems somewhat village due to them removing Braize as quickly as possible. The tough part is does ruin try to remove another planet if he does I would have to assume the shardic intent would be in full effect if it isn't already. That means he will probably nee to pass the shard if he doesn't want to get overwhelmed.

@MonsterMetroid, given what people have later said about Ruin's actions specifically being non-village, why do you claim here that removing Braize was a village action? 

Its a great question. Originally I assumed it was village because I thought village wouldnt want a kill action but with everyone pointing out that Ruin might have just wanted to ensure they were the only ones with a kill action I am not so sure anymore. I was originally thinking this was a way to prevent hoid and khriss from using braize with their followers to pick off more people discretely though was my original thinking.

@Strawwhy do you feel that the Sand lord would be a better lynch target than someone that would give us information about alignments this cycle?

[Stick. she/her]

1 hour ago, Elbereth said:

Te second half of this bit strikes me as off. Specifically, you’re trying to draw attention and suspicion to a very good player  without outright saying you think yourself that he’s suspicious. Which is exactly what an eliminator would want to do in order to make him less trusted/get rid of him without implicating themselves. 

Elim!Stick would never express suspicion on somebody without a detailed explanation with quotes and everything about why everybody else should immediately think the same. #ExpectDumbRemarksFromVillageStickOnly

1 hour ago, Straw said:

Hmm. I’ll put my vote on The Sand Lord. I don’t want Autonomy to gain too much power, and everyone who votes on this aspect will get a free charge of Autonomy’s investiture, according to Seonid.

I do not think that this is the best course of action to take right now. We should probably be focusing more on the lynch and lynch discussion. Is there anybody you're suspicious of? 

 

[MonsterMetroid]

3 hours ago, Magestar said:

I haven't actually seen MMs defense of me, though I suppose I should go look for it.

I don't remember doing this 

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

3 hours ago, Magestar said:

Quick question;  I may have missed this reading through the thread, but do we have any solid or even semi-solid proof that Pyro is survival?

Also, even if they are survival, what's the problem with killing them?  So far they haven't really offered any reason that I should trust them.  If they are survival, I'm not sure I want them to have the shard, as their actions seem to be primarily leaning towards the Elim side of things.

We don’t have proof, no. No one’s counterclaimed, which is potentially telling, but there are possible reasons Survival wouldn’t counterclaim. Mostly it’s just that the way he said his claim seemed honest. We don’t know that it is, but it’s a decent guess. 

And we haven’t yet discussed killing him, just because it’s be sort of annoying to do - particularly with Braize gone. Though we could certainly be more certain of his role if he survived the lynch. 

This is a good point and reminded me of something I wanted to bring up and thats Pyromancer Night 0 (this game)

Quote

Does everyone want to reveal what they were last time?  I actually WAS Survival, which makes me really sad that we restarted.

Quote

Now I can hold that hostage over the world!  Muhahaha!  Actually, since I'm new (unless I'm Alv), I'll tell the win con if I know it and whether I was assigned it from the start to anyone who PMs me.

Yeah, that was why it was a tough choice whether to restart or not for me.

Quote

For anyone who doesn't know what we are talking about, read the Taladain Arcanium Unbounded entry.

Kelsier was getting impatient.  He had just gotten Survival and-  What was he thinking?  He felt a ... Presence leave him.  Kelsier waited at the clothing shop.  If this was going to take this long, he was going to burn Cadmium. @Hemalurgic Headshot

Quote

I was Survival last game, so I know that yes, Survival is corrupted from the beginning.  His win con is to survive the game and be the vessel of survival at the end of the game.  Also, anyone who PM's me will be offered an honest, no-holds-barred yes or no question in exchange for them answering one of mine.

These posts were all from night zero and seemed very convincing to me that he was indeed survival the first game and he wasn't anymore. He even revealed to us Survivals win con (which at the time I thought wasn't really fair to the present survival)  and seemed he was trying to be very helpful to the village. He then started to mention khriss in several posts and then Drake made this post

Quote

But after consideration, I place my vote on Pyromancer. I have two reasons to do so:

1. I am wary of letting the last game inform this one too much, but Pyromancer is treating Khriss a lot like they treated Survival before the reboot. This is the best lead I can discern with the current information.

2. Pyromancer said they would be explaining their vote on Magestar soon, and this is partially a poke of encouragement to do so. I do not in principle disagree with the vote; I would just like to better understand it.

After this Pyro gets really defensive starts deflecting suspicion everywhere, and in general acts more suspicious until he eventually does pull out his "trump card" source

Quote

Ok.  Here Goes.

I'm Survival.

Other notable quotes from pyro

Quote

We can make do without Culty, I just don't think we should.  I want to keep Cultivation alive for another reason that I cannot say in-thread.  I believe that the "Eliminators" in this game are actually less of a threat then the Shards.  No, just because I said this doesn't mean I'm bad.

Quote

Okay....

Now I don't want to lynch you...

No Lynch

5th Scholar.

Followed by

Quote

Please!  VOTE ON 5TH SCHOLAR!  He wants to be voted on!

Which kind of just shows that the first statement was really just a statement.

-----

TLDR After rereading night zero and day one I believe that Pyromancer is not survival but he either is Khriss or was converted night zero, as the votes were piling up against him he got assistance from the doc for a plan to survive which was to claim to be survival, as I don't see the current survival revealing their win con so easily.

I would like others opinions on this though. If there is one thing Pyromancer gave us it is rope to hang himself with in post counts and I want to make sure I am not missing something.

Edited March 21, 2018 by MonsterMetroid
added response to mage quote

[DeTess she/her]

21 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

TLDR After rereading night zero and day one I believe that Pyromancer is not survival but he either is Khriss or was converted night zero, as the votes were piling up against him he got assistance from the doc for a plan to survive which was to claim to be survival, as I don't see the current survival revealing their win con so easily.

I would like others opinions on this though. If there is one thing Pyromancer gave us it is rope to hang himself with in post counts and I want to make sure I am not missing something.

There's two possible outcomes to lynching pyro as far as I can see. Either he dies, proving that he's not Surival, or he lives. Living doesn't prove anything, however, as Hoid started the game with a charge of preservation, and Khriss could have stolen a charge turn 1 (unless, @Seonid, there's  difference in write-up between survival's extra life and one gained from preservation's investiture). I'm not wholly opposed to lynching him to check, but if he's not survival, there's a decent chance he's got some of preservation's investiture to keep him alive anyway.

[Magestar he/him]

28 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I don't remember doing this 

6 hours ago, randuir said:

I've got a decidedly neutral read on him for now. His defense of Mage is notable, but will be more interesting when we know the alignment of either of them.

Hmm.  Maybe he was talking about Megasif, but I can't find a defense of me by him either.  Rand, who were you talking about?

[Eternum he/him]

I'll vote on the Sand Lord too. I still don't have a very good idea of what's happening yet, so I'll play it safe for now.

[DeTess she/her]

4 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Hmm.  Maybe he was talking about Megasif, but I can't find a defense of me by him either.  Rand, who were you talking about?

Megasif, from this post:

Quote

As for the lynch itself, I don't really have good idea on whom to vote but I didn't like (alignment-wise btw) Orlok giving Mage heat for his suspicions on fifth. It's an easy method to become suspicious of someone without much backlash. As it seemingly aplears to defend someone and naturally puts the other party in a bad light. Now Mage could totally be an elim here and Orlok could be village being genuine. But I doubt Orlok wpuld use the 'no. of times odium is mentioned' read for his push. Either way, not fond of the reason for votes on mage atm.

 

[MonsterMetroid]

5 minutes ago, randuir said:

There's two possible outcomes to lynching pyro as far as I can see. Either he dies, proving that he's not Surival, or he lives. Living doesn't prove anything, however, as Hoid started the game with a charge of preservation, and Khriss could have stolen a charge turn 1 (unless, @Seonid, there's  difference in write-up between survival's extra life and one gained from preservation's investiture). I'm not wholly opposed to lynching him to check, but if he's not survival, there's a decent chance he's got some of preservation's investiture to keep him alive anyway.

This is a good point... I didn't consider how easy it would be for him to live through a lynch, I thought for some reason that the lynch bypassed his extra lives but I guess it is just his shardic one it does, and I never considered that preservation could be used to survive the lynch I thought it was for kill protection.  A elsecaller lynch wouldn't be much better than a no lynch besides that we could see if he gets attacked by ruin or odium or not... I do want to consider though that he might not be survival and any shards that might be thinking about passing him your shard might want to be careful. I also think that discussion on this topic is important too as it is something that we will have to determine sooner or later and sooner is probably better. If Odium is village he could scan him and let us know if he is survival though if he could do it through an intermediary that would be ideal.

@Orlok Tsubodai @Arinian what are your thoughts?

[Straw he/him]

@MonsterMetroid @_Stick_ I’m voting on the Sand Lord until I can find someone actually suspicious. Basically, it’s a placeholder vote.

[Stick. she/her]

Because we're discussing Pyromancer, I think it's worth noting that at one point during Day 1, they said this (to Fifth):

Quote

Fifth Scholar, I am on to you.  I imagine you do not want me speaking of what I mean.  Please get in contact with me.

Quote

I think you are a shard, probably Autonomy or Survival.  I was reluctant saying this in-thread in case you didn't want Odium to know.

The second quote is what they said when Fifth insisted that they say whatever they want to in-thread rather than in a PM.  Don't know if it means anything, but it's something. @TheYoungPyromancer did you only say that you were on to Fifth to gain a PM with them? And what did you hope to accomplish by saying that you think they are Survival/Autonomy? 

And your second statement in the second quote seems odd since you yourself were quite alright with claiming Survival in-thread shortly after.

Anyway, below are some of their posts that kinda lead me to believe that they may actually be Survival.

Quote

@Drake Marshall, yes, I have namedropped Khriss, but when I talked about Survival, I was asking questions about him.  I have just been making jokes about Khriss.  Also, I think all the current shards will gang up on Odium.

 

Quote

I'd say at this point, Shards are going to be MORE dangerous than Hoid or Khriss, unless we make an effort to free some nicer ones.

 

Quote

The problem is, if we support Odium, we could make enemies of every other shard. This could turn the game into vanillas + Odium VS Hoid, Khriss, their converts, and every single other shard.  We would drastically increase the size of the elim team.  Sure, they wouldn't have a doc, but they would have Cultivation.

 

Quote

If we eliminate Odium and free nice shards, we are able to have any and all nice/neutral shards reveal themselves, and we can support their win cons in exchange for them helping us find the elims.  Also, Odium, if you blow up Cultivation I will hunt you down.  5th Scholar already promised the same.  Go after other shards first, pass Odium, or return it please.

 

And while I was gathering these, I noticed this post:

Quote

Nah.  It would necessitate revealing another plan I wish to keep secret for now.

@TheYoungPyromancerWhen is it okay for you to reveal it to the thread? And are you going to reveal it to anybody who PMs you? 

11 minutes ago, Straw said:

@MonsterMetroid @_Stick_ I’m voting on the Sand Lord until I can find someone actually suspicious. Basically, it’s a placeholder vote.

Do you have any gut reads?

Edit: Sorry for mentioning you twice in one post, Pyro. Just realised.

Edited March 21, 2018 by _Stick_

[Magestar he/him]

23 minutes ago, randuir said:

Megasif, from this post:

 

Ok, thanks.

The thing about the chances of a player surviving the lynch is that at this point, we have a pretty good chance of hitting a player who's gonna have some sort of protection no matter what.  There are a lot of shards out there, a number of people who could have taken some preservation investiture, and we might even have some people on scadrial who've been using that protection.  I still think it's worthwhile to lynch someone, and I'm still suspicious of Pyro.

[Elbereth she/her]

2 hours ago, Magestar said:

Hmm.  While, on the surface, this seems like a good idea, I feel like it could just end up being another no-lynch.  Pending other people's responses, though, I might end up doing it as well.  

This is a very safe move. Why are you waiting on others' responses? You can critically think about this idea just as anyone else can. Sitting back and waiting for others to do the work isn't terribly helpful in contributing to discussion. 

2 hours ago, Droughtbringer said:

I disagree, as, a lot of the time as a Villager, I want to make a point known, but I don't necessarily want to cast suspicion directly onto a player that most people have a village read on, and assume is a Villager. It could be an elim tactic, but I read it much more as Stick not wanting to directly state that a main player is possibly an elim.

If I was Survival I would not counterclaim. If everyone is focusing on Fake!Survival then Real!Survival is able to work out of the spotlight, and play behind shadows, where the fake one has the potential to take a fall, if needed or possible. Also, there is a chance that the real one would be attacked if he outed himself, as we would be split on who we trusted and he could end up dying; if I was the real Survival I would stay quiet.

Re: Survival, that's a decent point, and one I hadn't considered fully. I still am inclined to believe Pyromancer based on the tone of his reveal, but less strongly so than before. 

As for your first point... With all due respect, I don't understand that at all. If you're village and suspect someone, why would you hold back just because other people are saying they're village? How does that help? 

You might be wrong, yes. And it's okay to be wrong, but so long as you update your suspicions based on evidence and discussion, it helps to be firm in what you think regardless. A whole lot of productive discussion can be generated when you have opposing viewpoints. That discussion is more difficult when one of said viewpoints is giving in before they start.  

And, importantly, you are only 100% certain of one person's alignment: yours. You are confirmed good, if you're village. So treat yourself like it. Listen to your own suspicions, because only following good players and not thinking for yourself is how villages die. (Particularly when those good players die, and you're left several cycles into the game without any strong opinions of your own and little idea what to do, which makes you very easy for the eliminators to manipulate.)

You also might be right. It's entirely possible to notice something or feel something off that most players don't. I called out Aman D1 in LG21, and turned out to be right. (And dead, unfortunately.) And, for players like Rand, they're going to get a lot of village reads regardless of their alignment. They're good at this game. So just because everyone is assuming someone's village doesn't mean you're wrong in calling them out otherwise. Be prepared to defend yourself, of course, but that's the entire point of generating discussion. 

Not all of that is entirely relevant to this specific circumstance, but I think it warranted saying. 

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

Elim!Stick would never express suspicion on somebody without a detailed explanation with quotes and everything about why everybody else should immediately think the same. #ExpectDumbRemarksFromVillageStickOnly

Noted.  I don't know your past playstyle enough to judge the truth of that, but it still helps allay my suspicions (but if you are village see my points above to Drought). 

3 minutes ago, Eternum said:

I'll vote on the Sand Lord too. I still don't have a very good idea of what's happening yet, so I'll play it safe for now.

Eternum, you said yesterday you were about to start reading through the thread and catching up - did you? 

[Droughtbringer]

13 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

As for your first point... With all due respect, I don't understand that at all. If you're village and suspect someone, why would you hold back just because other people are saying they're village? How does that help? 

You might be wrong, yes. And it's okay to be wrong, but so long as you update your suspicions based on evidence and discussion, it helps to be firm in what you think regardless. A whole lot of productive discussion can be generated when you have opposing viewpoints. That discussion is more difficult when one of said viewpoints is giving in before they start.  

And, importantly, you are only 100% certain of one person's alignment: yours. You are confirmed good, if you're village. So treat yourself like it. Listen to your own suspicions, because only following good players and not thinking for yourself is how villages die. (Particularly when those good players die, and you're left several cycles into the game without any strong opinions of your own and little idea what to do, which makes you very easy for the eliminators to manipulate.)

You also might be right. It's entirely possible to notice something or feel something off that most players don't. I called out Aman D1 in LG21, and turned out to be right. (And dead, unfortunately.) And, for players like Rand, they're going to get a lot of village reads regardless of their alignment. They're good at this game. So just because everyone is assuming someone's village doesn't mean you're wrong in calling them out otherwise. Be prepared to defend yourself, of course, but that's the entire point of generating discussion. 

And I completely understand this, but it can be very hard to go against what everyone else is saying, and it feels like it you are too blatant about it you might end up dead.

But also, I agree that we need to act as more sure of our own alignments 

[Magestar he/him]

16 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

This is a very safe move. Why are you waiting on others' responses? You can critically think about this idea just as anyone else can. Sitting back and waiting for others to do the work isn't terribly helpful in contributing to discussion. 

If lots of other people vote for the Sand Lord I'm not just going to not vote for him just on principle.  Why waste a chance at a scan action? 

That's why I'm waiting for others responses.  I did give my opinion on it; it seems like it'd be effectively another no-lynch, which I condemn.  But I'm still not so opposed to doing it that I wouldn't if everyone else did.

The response follows my thought process, to some extent.  I was like, "Cool, free investiture!"  Then I was like, "No wait, that's not such a good idea.  It doesn't actually get anything done."  And then I was like, "Well, I'm gonna wait it out."

So yeah.  That.

[MonsterMetroid]

The Main issue I have voting for the sand lord this early is that this could become a perpetual vote sink allowing the elim's to better position themselves each time we use the lynch against an aspect. Every turn we lynch an aspect we are not lynching an elim. I agree that we shouldn't let autonomy gain too much power but I also think we desperately need information that can be obtained from a real lynch right now. If autonomy creates another aspect this turn then we can lynch one next turn IMO assuming ruin doesn't destroy one in a planet destruction anyways.

[Arinian]

1 hour ago, MonsterMetroid said:

@Arinian what are your thoughts?

I think I'm hungry. Need to reread thread and eat something will response later. 

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

I’ve got another track meet, but once I get back I have something very important. It’s just a theory, but it could change the game. I’ll explain in more detail in 5-6 hours.