[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[TheLordRuler he/him]

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status. Speculation as to what could have caused this? Maybe Vivenna awakened her blade specifically to hunt Vasher? Also, has Vivenna's shapeshifting expanded beyond hair colour? At one point Adolin mentions her scars fading alongside her hair changing colour.

[Fallen_Ash]

28 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Lol I feel like you're more invested in the emotional side of things in the books. Nothing wrong with that, but romance is obviously secondary in the series so drama and exploring Roshar together probably doesn't have a place in an epic fantasy hitting stride. Not many were satisfied with how the triangle went, but I think we're willing to ignore that considering how well done the rest of the book is.

Also, Kaladin in love with Syl? Thats kinda disturbing. Not sure where this extrapolation came from. I would assume most Surgebinders are as close as Kal and Syl since they get to know each other so well.

“We’re willing to ignore that”? Thanks for speaking on behalf of the entire fandom. I already said I felt stupid for caring so much about it. I just thought we’d had a good setup that wasn’t resolved. But Brandon does like putting his weddings in the middle of/before the action.

Also, human emotion is a pretty integral part of this story, wouldn’t you think? 

And obviously the healing and fighting together is actually what I would expect from the story, not categorizing cremlings. I was blissfully imagining a time where they could live without war, but they’re all going to die anyway so I guess it doesn’t matter who marries who. 

I know other people legitimately ship Syl and Kaladin. For me, I was picking up vibes in all the cuddly Shadesmar behavior and how he cut off when he said “I never loved her, she just reminded me of...” which I think could have meant Syl or Tien, but I interpreted it as Syl for the purposes of this comment. 

I actually get more angry the more I think about it. Shallan is this deeply broken character who is magically healed because a pretty boy likes her? She has a LONG way to go, and the ending was a bit too “Handsome man saves me from myself!” for me.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fallen_Ash

[Kurkistan he/him]

11 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status. Speculation as to what could have caused this? Maybe Vivenna awakened her blade specifically to hunt Vasher? Also, has Vivenna's shapeshifting expanded beyond hair colour? At one point Adolin mentions her scars fading alongside her hair changing colour.

Yeah, probably. Changing more than hair has been a thing since the annotations.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kurkistan

[TheLordRuler he/him]

6 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

“We’re willing to ignore that”? Thanks for speaking on behalf of the entire fandom. I already said I felt stupid for caring so much about it. I just thought we’d had a good setup that wasn’t resolved. But Brandon does like putting his weddings in the middle of/before the action.

Also, human emotion is a pretty integral part of this story, wouldn’t you think? 

And obviously the healing and fighting together is actually what I would expect from the story, not categorizing cremlings. I was blissfully imagining a time where they could live without war, but they’re all going to die anyway so I guess it doesn’t matter who marries who. 

I don't think its stupid, I just think expecting Brandon to fit that in somewhere is too much when he is already trying to cram a large story with many plots in. This becomes obvious when you look at the threads he dropped like Sadeas's death, Helaran's death, Amaram's role in the Sons of Honour all which are potentially more important than the triangle. 

I guess 'ignore' was too strong a word, tolerate is probably the better word. And I'm basing it on the reactions I've read in this thread and the other threads. Most seem to agree that it could have been done better, but in light of what a significant undertaking Oathbringer was, it's forgivable.

Also, I thought I made it pretty clear that I meant romance when talking about emotion. I agree that emotion does play an important role in the series. But romance has never been the emotion at the forefront in Brandon's books, as far as I can tell.

[Kitch]

23 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status.

I think it has something to do with the decisions made on Roshar. Vasher mentioned that there were decisions he regrets to Kaladin.....I think the main one that pushed him into staying on Roshar and trying to do some good, to redeem himself, was that he was involved in the process of removing the Identity and Connection from the Parsh.  He's probably one of the foremost scholars on Investure in the cosmere, so I'm sure he's the mind of person who could have figured it out.  And thought he was doing something good....until he realized he helped with enslaving the native species of a planet.

[TheLordRuler he/him]

1 minute ago, Kitch said:

I think it has something to do with the decisions made on Roshar. Vasher mentioned that there were decisions he regrets to Kaladin.....I think the main one that pushed him into staying on Roshar and trying to do some good, to redeem himself, was that he was involved in the process of removing the Identity and Connection from the Parsh.  He's probably one of the foremost scholars on Investure in the cosmere, so I'm sure he's the mind of person who could have figured it out.  And thought he was doing something good....until he realized he helped with enslaving the native species of a planet.

2

But that would mean he is over 4000 years old, which Im pretty sure is not the case. Even if he were Immortal due to his Divine Breath, we know Vivenna is not immortal and she was born about 400 years after him IIRC. So unless she's been time travelling (is this possible?), I don't think the timelines match up. Also, I believe Brandon said Warbreaker and Stormlight Archive occur close to each other.

[Fallen_Ash]

1 minute ago, TheLordRuler said:

I don't think its stupid, I just think expecting Brandon to fit that in somewhere is too much when he is already trying to cram a large story with many plots in. This becomes obvious when you look at the threads he dropped like Sadeas's death, Helaran's death, Amaram's role in the Sons of Honour all which are potentially more important than the triangle. 

I guess 'ignore' was too strong a word, tolerate is probably the better word. And I'm basing it on the reactions I've read in this thread and the other threads. Most seem to agree that it could have been done better, but in light of what a significant undertaking Oathbringer was, it's forgivable.

Also, I thought I made it pretty clear that I meant romance when talking about emotion. I agree that emotion does play an important role in the series. But romance has never been the emotion at the forefront in Brandon's books, as far as I can tell.

Oh yeah I was expecting a much bigger emotional payoff for the revelations of Sadeas and Helaran’s deaths. But I guess Dalinar has no right to criticize Adolin, and Shallan’s killed more of her own family members than anyone else. 

Brandon is not the best at romance, but with the WoR buildup I was expecting more. Romance, love, lust—these are aspects of human emotion that are important to humanity’s existence, so I would expect this book, more than others, to address it (plenty of time was spent on Dalinar pining for Navani). If romance isn’t important, why tease a love triangle at all? Adolin and Shallan get betrothed for political reasons, find out they actually like each other and he likes her even though she’s broken. That was the entire culmination of the plot, so why include the Kaladin stuff at all? The books are big enough...

[Kitch]

Just now, TheLordRuler said:

But that would mean he is over 4000 years old, which Im pretty sure is not the case. Even if he were Immortal due to his Divine Breath, we know Vivenna is not immortal and she was born about 400 years after him IIRC. So unless she's been time travelling (is this possible?), I don't think the timelines match up. Also, I believe Brandon said Warbreaker and Stormlight Archive occur close to each other.

 

There's been hints regarding relativistic affects and physically traveling between world's. And Nightbloods interpretation of time makes me think that Nightblood has been on Roshar for awhile.

Though I really need to brush up on cosmere timelines....we have a little bit of everything on Roshar and I honestly can't place that happened when. 

 

[Kasimir he/him]

Forgot to squee over this: the climax fights were storming awesome. I really loved Jasnah's fight scenes in particular--chain chullslap of doom, anyone? I used to think Elsecallers were a bit meh, but I have learned the error of my ways now.

[TheLordRuler he/him]

2 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

That was the entire culmination of the plot, so why include the Kaladin stuff at all?

That sums up my thoughts on the matter. I feel like Brandon tried but couldn't get it right so he just cut it off at the end.

Maybe its not over, and we'll see something in the next book? It's not like Shallan's cured, she's just made a little progress. And we've seen how relapses can suddenly occur with Kaladin's depression.

[TheLordRuler he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I used to think Elsecallers were a bit meh, but I have learned the error of my ways now.

 

Haha same, Jasnah was far better at dealing with the Fused than Szeth and Kaladin. I wonder what Elsecaller squires are capable of. 

[Fallen_Ash]

1 minute ago, TheLordRuler said:

That sums up my thoughts on the matter. I feel like Brandon tried but couldn't get it right so he just cut it off at the end.

Maybe its not over, and we'll see something in the next book? It's not like Shallan's cured, she's just made a little progress. And we've seen how relapses can suddenly occur with Kaladin's depression.

I am hoping, like I said, for a little more conflict resolution. I don’t want all of Shallan’s problems to go away because she got married. That’s a disservice to her character. 

One of the reasons I love Brandon is the way he develops characters, and this arc was just so bland. Instead of the awkward flirting and back rubs that added nothing to the story, tell me more about Jasnah’s childhood!!

Since Shallan and Kaladin have some big Ideals to say, I am hopeful we’ll get some meatier development. If we do, I will rescind all complaints. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

he likes her even though she’s broken.

I... know this isn't the KSA relationship discussion thread, but I feel like, that I need to address this shortly.

I don't think, that Adolin likes the broken Shallan. He is willing to try to deal with it, but actually only likes the Shallan, that she shows him. He actually doesn't know the broken Shallan. Her multiple personalities aren't what makes her broken, but are a consequence of her true brokenness.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Solant he/him]

Done with my read, and I'm late to the party (figured I would be.) 

I wanted to cheer after almost every scene in part 5.

Odium makes Ruin look like he's just a schoolyard bully.

[Wolfbeckett]

10 minutes ago, Solant said:

Odium makes Ruin look like he's just a schoolyard bully.

In some ways I can see that, but in other ways I think Ruin was more impressive.  More subtle.  And he came just a hairsbreadth from total victory.  I think Brandon's writing of Odium is far better because he's come a long way as an author since then, but overall I think Ruin was just as effective in his own way.

[+Wax he/him]

58 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Haha same, Jasnah was far better at dealing with the Fused than Szeth and Kaladin. I wonder what Elsecaller squires are capable of. 

And yet, Jasnah doesn’t pick up wards easily....

[frozndevl]

2 hours ago, TheLordRuler said:

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status. 

My take when initially responding was she was just hunting Nightblood, but when I found the quote below, confirmed that it's both.

Quote

“Yeah. Borea thinks the weapon I’m chasing passed through their fortress a few years ago.”

“Your bounty is a … weapon?”

“And the one who brought it to your land.

I think she is hunting then both in an attempt to fix/destroy NB since she apparently had a less flawed awakened sword.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

3 hours ago, TheLordRuler said:

The constant repetition of "Unite Them" to Dalinar. I think uniting the humans of Roshar is the first step, but am I the only one who thinks this extends to uniting the humans and Singers/Listeners (I don't think all the listeners are dead)? Whats the other alternative? Genocide against a species they have already wronged in so many ways? We've seen through Venli and the Thaylen Singers that perhaps they aren't so keen on war and a compromise can be reached. I think if more Singers were to join the KR's then it could be key to solving the issue. Additionally, I don't think its a war they can win anyway. Virtually no Radiants, no Honour, no Heralds, no Uritheru and the Coalition has fragmented before ever being set. 

Peace between the 2 groups is likely the only way to win. But I'd like to point out 7 Radiants held off an army of Voidbringers in Thaylen city for quite a while . Being the underdogs is something these protagonists are used to.

6 hours ago, Mondaysjelly said:

With Amaram now out of the picture, Sons of Honour will now certainly make a move. As mentioned in the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread, I suspect tensions in that dynamic will eventually lead to Navani revealing more about her troubled relationship with Gavilar before his death, which will tie in nicely with Restares and the Sons of Honour popping up.

Speaking of Navani...she is so nuts for having been in love with the Blackthorn. Who could love him when he was a monster? Evi was unique, and even she was scared of him.

2 hours ago, TheLordRuler said:

I don't think its stupid, I just think expecting Brandon to fit that in somewhere is too much when he is already trying to cram a large story with many plots in. This becomes obvious when you look at the threads he dropped like Sadeas's death, Helaran's death, Amaram's role in the Sons of Honour all which are potentially more important than the triangle. 

Well, this is obviously my personal opinion. But I was thrilled many of the threads I wanted to see dropped were indeed dropped. Helaran thread is the only thing of SA I disliked. I found it contrieved, uneccesary and too typical of literature (huge trope). Additionally I deeply disliked Helaran for abandoning his family who needed him desperately to chase glory. I was happy it was barely mentioned. I wanted to see the Sadeas thread have little emotional or political impact because, a) who cares when everyone hated him,b ) when the end of the world is coming I think you have bigger problems than who killed a person who had no idea what world he was living in.

Last thread I wanted to see dissappear: love triangle. I wanted her to choose Adolin for practical reasons (Shallan and Kaladin are both main protagonists, if they got together they would overshadow all else, and in general Kaladin is more epic as a character but Adolin is a ray of sunlight which would probably be a more stable partner in a relationship). But either way I just wanted it resolved one way or the other, as I could get behind any of the boys (Kaladin and Adolin are probably my favorite SA characters, although for different reasons). And again, out it went. .

So, I know its an unpopular opinion but I'm sort of happy those things were removed, as they were the least fun for me to read. The only thing I might have liked is a bit more Sons of Honor, and definetely a conversation between Szeth and Dalinar, and probably Szeth and Kaladin after the battle. I'm still holding out hope we will see this conversation sometime, maybe an extra excerpt or novella or something...

[Jenet]

On 18.11.2017 at 6:11 PM, Asrael said:

 Brandon Sanderson overwhelms me with the goodness in his character's hearts, and it makes me wan't to be a better person.

YES! Exactly! 

[AerionBFII he/him]

Just finished and im already way behind in the forums... Damnation. 

[+Wax he/him]

Oathbringer- A very apt title for a book which makes you swear A LOT with the surprises and twists.

 

A great book.  An ode to epic fantasy.  Brandon’s writing was brilliant and had some great highlights, particularly in part 3 and 4 with a very poignant Dalinar oath in Part 5.  Chapter 74, 75 and 76 are some of the most powerful chapters except the ending of Part 3.  Elhokar's death is an unexpected blow and so is the capture of his son at that point.  Hoid was muted somewhat, but I think the whole book high octave that there was very little space for even Wit to loosen up.  Secrets galore and revelations truly mind boggling.

But, there is a royal “But-t” 

It felt as if the weight of feedback, requests and expectations got better of Brandon, resulting in a book that is too eager to please at times.

Indulgent in Part 1, tightening up in Part 2, explosive in part 3, scattered in part 4 and dragging after an awesome fight climax in part 5.

The indulgence in Part 1 meant that the story lagged and had to be rushed somewhat in other parts of the book.  And then the trip in Shadesmar to Celebrant was redundant and could have been skipped to give more writing time to Part 5.

Part 5 is where Brandon’s central idea shows his brilliance.  But there were big stumbles in my view with the Szeth storyline with boulder sized plot holes due to his part being under-cooked.

·        Szeth comes and starts helping and Dalinar/Jasnah are quick to accept his help.

·        Kaladin harangued Shallan just because she took her boots.  Yet, no consequence for Szeth turning up.

·        No one questioning Kaladin who had claimed that Szeth was dead.

·        Szeth becoming Dalinar’s bodyguard despite Dalinar having enough.

·        No other kingdoms wanted to put a bounty on Szeth’s head?  Really?

·        Szeth tells Nale that he’s going after the Shin.  Yet, now, he’s standing around being Dalinar’s bodyguard – so that Dalinar can go to a bloody wedding reception.

·        I’d been surprised if Dalinar had let Szeth stay if Szeth had mentioned the other Honorblades

·        Szeth hasn’t told Dalinar about Taravangian

·        Dalinar is happy to have Szeth – when they have fought a bloody war for 6 years just coz Szeth killed Dalinar’s brother, and effectively started the whole desolation (Dalinar wouldn’t have known about the rest of the things going on).

That whole Szeth scenario was bizarre, and needed more polish.  That mealy-mouthed end to Part 5 which dragged forever after the big fight with Odium is why the entire book felt unfinished.

I lay the blame on people chastising Brandon for Jasnah’s return in WoR.  Such a great plot device.  I loved it and I am sure others did too.  Sometimes if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.  Brandon, I felt, tried to fix WoR and in a bigger book with a wider scope, resulting in some mis-steps.

So, in summary, it is a great book, but I am struggling with the concept of re-reading it.  It was a daunting read with the size, and I loved every minute of it.  But next time, I’d prefer a smaller book with more tightness around the edges from Brandon.

My criticism is an honest view for my favourite author and I would still recommend this series and serious love for all the characters.  Oathbringer is still a great book, but just not the best one of the Stormlight Archive.

·        Some of my favourite quotes are below.

 

Quote

 

Beard shrugged. "Let's just say, I know a lot about telling which stories have been made up.  Nobody's watching over us, Kal."

.....

"Every child eventually realizes that her father isn't actually God."  She (Syl) looked at him.  "Do you think anybody is watching?  Do you really think there isn't anything out there?"

 

 

Quote

 

Dalinar glanced toward a sphere lantern, which had a polished metal surface.  The man who looked back seemed more Voidbringer than man, face crusted over with blackened blood, hair matted with it, blue eyes wide, jaw clenched.  He was sliced with what seemed to be a hundred wounds, his padded uniform in tatters. 

…

Oh, and someone take my wife to her tent so she may recover from her unwarranted grief.

 

 

Quote

Unable to stand that stone visage any longer, Dalinar left, stomping in the corridor towards the palace proper.  Other voices echoed after him... Dalinar continued forward, fleeing those fires below.  Gavilar's stare judging him, the cries of people dying in the rift...sweating, frantic, running through ornate hallways, past carved walls, sedate woods and accusatory mirrors.

 

 

Quote

 

Is mercy a bad thing?

"Not bad, just chaotic.... Leniency and mercy. .. Some go on... and others recidivate...creating great tragedies.  The thing is Szeth Son Son Naturo, we humans are terrible at spotting which will be which... Think wisely and choose. 

 

 

Quote

 

She closed her eyes and tried to pull herself together.  “Which one do you like the most?” she finally asked.  “Veil is the one who wears the white outfit, but I’m having trouble with her right now.  She peeks out sometimes when I don’t want, but then won’t come when I need her.  Radiant is the one who practices with the sword.  I made her prettier than the others, and you can talk to her about duelling.  But some of the time, I’ll have to be someone who can Lightweave.  I am trying to think who she should be…”

 

“Ash’s eyes, Shallan!”

 

“Shallan’s broken, so I think I’m trying to hide her.  Like a cracked vase, where you turn the nice side toward the room, hiding the flaw.  I’m not doing it on purpose, but it’s happening, and I don’t know how to stop it.”

He held her.

“No advice?” she asked numb.  “Everyone always seems have loads.”

“You’re the smart one.  What can I say?”

….

“You never did say, “ she whispered,  “which one you prefer.”

“It’s obvious.  I prefer the real you.”

“Which one is that, though?”

“She’s the one I’m talking to right now.  You don't have to hide, Shallan.  You don’t have to push it down.  Maybe the vase is cracked, but that only means that it can show what's inside.  And I like what’s inside.

 

 

Quote

Stones and splinters rained down on the city, crashing about her.  Dried bodies dropped liked discarded clothing.... No cries of fear, no moans of pain, bodies were just husks, skins just lying on the ground.

 

Quote

“Journey before destination,” Dalinar said. “It cannot be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.” .... Dalinar? “I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”

Quote

The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it? It’s the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Yes, yes, yes to everything about Szeth you said @axcellence. I was willing to forgive why in battle they all just rolled with it, as everyone else had bailed ship or switched sides, by that point you take what you can get. And he had just vaporized a huge number of Voidbringers. But after? There should have been a 4h long conversation minimun. 

I wonder which book we'll get next. Szeth and Skybreakers? Or Eshonai/Venli and Willshapers?

[StormingTexan he/him]

Completely agree about Szeth as well. You brought up a good point about the other Kingdoms as well. He would be considered a criminal by many but I don't know how many understand he is the assassin in white. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Completely agree about Szeth as well. You brought up a good point about the other Kingdoms as well. He would be considered a criminal by many but I don't know how many understand he is the assassin in white. 

Considering the lesson about secrets, I hope Dalinar keeps as few as possible. As honestly the ones that T released were minor, at best and apparently that was enough to break the delicate hearts of the coalition leaders. If Dalinar keeps this ones (Renarin, Szeth, etc) it would be far too much to juggle. I do however also think he needs to throw T into the fire by saying T is the one who ordered the death of all the previous monarchs, that could take the heat off Dalinar himself quite nicely.
 

[Fulminato he/him]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Completely agree about Szeth as well. You brought up a good point about the other Kingdoms as well. He would be considered a criminal by many but I don't know how many understand he is the assassin in white. 

young dalinar was a monster, he laid waste in his wake long before the rift part 2, the burning.

and the end of the world his here, if the storming assasin in white want fight for you...