Bridge Boy Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: I think you're kind of missing the point of the greater conflict. Odium is hatred. The world has taught itself to view the conflict as one between humans and parshmen, when really that's just serving to strengthen Odium's position. A never-ending battle and generations of ingrained hatred is exactly what Odium would want. War, hatred, atrocities, and slavery just breed more of the same. When Honor's vision was telling Dalinar to unite "them", he likely wasn't just referring to humanity, but all sentient life on Roshar, Parshendi included. The only way to defeat Odium is to break the cycle of hate between humans and Parshendi. And right now Kaladin may be the only person to grasp that his oaths to protect don't stop with the human race. In this sense you're right, Kaladin may indeed become the betrayer of his side on the surface-level conflict, but doing so is the opposite of becoming Odium's champion. He will be truly embodying the principles of honor and opposing the machinations of Odium, perhaps for the first time since the Recreance. Actually, now I'm starting to become convinced that this is the true cause of the Recreance. Ishi and the Heralds thought they saw a way to break the cycle of Desolations, and used the power of the Bondsmiths (perhaps not telling them the full details of what they were doing) to brutalize the souls of Parshendi everywhere. Witnessing the results of their actions: the enslavement and lobotomizing of nearly the entire Parshendi race, was too morally repulsive to support and the old Radiants abandoned their orders. The Radiants were probably remembered as traitors by humanity for just this reason, they didn't go along with the mass-enslavement of the Parshendi. Is it said anywhere that a character couldn't embody the principles of both Honor & Odium? Considering that Honor is "dead" (whatever that means) and Odium may still take a more active role in events of man; what would that mean for an individual that is a champion of both? I have briefly explored this idea before with a prior posting that I have quoted below. On 9/15/2017 at 4:59 PM, Bridge Boy said: As interested as I am in Adolin's (he is my favorite) story arc, does it not make much better sense if Kaladin is the traitor? Couldn't the combination of his sense of honor, need to protect the weak, and penchant for anger lead him to become an embodiment of rage considering that within a desolation the weak will be those that suffer the most? Additionally, Syl does appear to have grey area in her sense of honor in relation to her proximity to the oppressed party. I guess what I am trying to get at is; in times of war how can honor exist within so much grey area, wouldn't the pursuit of honor in a desolation lead to madness and rage? Let me know what you think. I think it is becoming increasingly more obvious that Kaladin will be Odium's champion, and it seems the most exciting possible direction that the story can turn from my perspective. edit- Also, I keep think about the question that Kaladin has in reference to Lirin's lessons, "What about those that kill to protect?" I think this question is the essence of Kaladin's internal struggle. Can you kill to protect or is Lirin's thought process correct? Edited October 10, 2017 by Bridge Boy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Alderant said: What the heck is Dune? Is that a Cosmere thing I've somehow missed? I know there's a book series called Dune... In reference to Spice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just now, StormingTexan said: In reference to Spice. So it is a "Dune series" reference then? I haven't read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Alderant said: So it is a "Dune series" reference then? I haven't read it. Correct. "Spice" is a drug the Dune Universe revolves around. Btw you should read it but just the first book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alderant Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bridge Boy said: On 9/15/2017 at 5:59 PM, Bridge Boy said: As interested as I am in Adolin's (he is my favorite) story arc, does it not make much better sense if Kaladin is the traitor? Couldn't the combination of his sense of honor, need to protect the weak, and penchant for anger lead him to become an embodiment of rage considering that within a desolation the weak will be those that suffer the most? Additionally, Syl does appear to have grey area in her sense of honor in relation to her proximity to the oppressed party. I guess what I am trying to get at is; in times of war how can honor exist within so much grey area, wouldn't the pursuit of honor in a desolation lead to madness and rage? Let me know what you think. I think it is becoming increasingly more obvious that Kaladin will be Odium's champion, and it seems the most exciting possible direction that the story can turn from my perspective. Uhh...Odium's shard isn't rage. It's hatred. Odium is latin for hatred, so Kaladin driven to rage for the sake of protection doesn't mean that he will be Odium's champion. If you're just going off of the pure emotion related to a Shard, then Adolin or Shallan would even be a better candidate than Kaladin at this moment. He's said before that in order to kill he had to think of things in terms of "us" and "them". We see that ability to differentiate corroding, as he comes to empathize and care for the parshmen. That's a far cry from becoming the fighting embodiment of hatred. 1 minute ago, StormingTexan said: Correct. "Spice" is a drug the Dune Universe revolves around. Btw you should read it but just the first book. I will check it out. Thanks for the clarification, it was driving me bonkers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said: Correct. "Spice" is a drug the Dune Universe revolves around. Btw you should read it but just the first book. I like the first three. After that it's pretty downhill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Well, a Dalinar flashback I'd read (but what a truly beautiful one), a very strange Kal chapter, and a Shallan chapter that was...interesting? At times? I have less thoughts on these ones than normal, but as per operating procedure I'll transmit them directly to YOU, using my thumb, so I have a record at the end of this for prosperity. Posterity. Presuppository. One of them. In a break from tradition though, I'll post the Dalinar chapter thoughts first as I'm about to work and, well, what a tasty chapter it is? Salry, umami and just a little sweet. Quote Soulcasters. We have not these things in Rira or Iri. Fascinating, fascinating… And so many Shards here. Perhaps half the world’s wealth of Blades and Plates, all contained in Vorin kingdoms. The Heralds themselves favor you.” I...see. why? I'm assuming the blades because Alethela was where the fighting radiants were and therefore probably where they surrendered the blades. But fabrials? HMMMM. Maybe the vorin church recovered them from other nations during the heirocracy? But they didn't conquer the west. Hmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Quote he stumbled, then stepped backward, driven by instincts he couldn’t define. A large boulder slammed into the wall, then bounced away. Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs. Before i continue, Dalinar. Daddy K. Yeah he's pretty objectionable and morally bankrupt in his younger, headier days. But corrupt my breath, he's absolutely magnificent. The sharp-brained amongst you may have picked up that I'm fond of characters with no fear and utter confidence in their invincibility. The guy walked out into a highstorm to find a knife. Bring that man to me on a plate with garlic butter and a pinch of thyme. Oh, anyway, he saw the same thing Kal saw. The striders in the storm. Cognitive Realm obviously. Some have said the unmade. Tbh I'm not sure. The quack in me wants to say its a glimpse of braize. But i don't believe that. I expect its just some spren related to the Highstorms that manifests way bigger in the CR. Quote You may have just proven in one moment, Dalinar, a point I’ve spent a half hour trying to make politically. Toh wonders if we’re strong enough to protect him And maybe some lemon aioli with a side of honey-braized turnips Quote They might have united, if the Sunmaker himself could have been bothered to settle on an heir. It’s his fault.” “He was off in the west,” Gavilar said. “Leading his army to ‘further glory.’ Alethkar and Herdaz weren’t enough for him. He wanted the whole world.” “So it was his ambition,” Sadeas said. “No, his greed,” Gavilar said quietly. “What’s the point of conquering if you can never sit back and enjoy it? Shubreth-son-Mashalan, Sunmaker, even the Hierocracy… they all stretched farther and farther until they collapsed. In all the history of mankind, has any conqueror decided they had enough? Has any man just said, ‘This is good. This is what I wanted,’ and gone home?” I feel like we've danced this dance, but yes Sunmaker's empire lasted 1 generation and yes there was a Shin conqueror. That continues to excite me. With the honorblades? Were they left in Shinovar? Do they have them because of the conquering? And if you haven't search the other books for that name, you may find a salty surprise. Quote Well,” Dalinar said, wagging his bent knife. “We looked at this place here, this kingdom, and we realized, ‘Hey, all these people have stuff .’ And we figured… hey, maybe we should And pair him with a young shiraz please, something a little peppery, not too earthy, heavy on the tannins. Quote THIRTY-ONE YEARS AGO ... Maybe,” Gavilar said. “Maybe. There’s something I want you to listen to. The Codes of War, from the old days. Back when Alethkar meant something This was very interesting to be indeed. G was all about the Codes 25 years before his assassination! D only needed 6 to bond The Hurricane. But G really was on the path for a long long time. Did the Codes lead to the bond or did a proto bond start a long long time ago? Quote Dalinar kicked at the assassin to be sure he was dead. He nodded to himself, righted his chair, sat down, then leaned over and yanked the man’s knife from his chest. A fine blade. He washed it off in his wine, then cut off a piece of his steak and shoved it into his mouth. Finally. “Good pork,” Dalinar noted around the bite. And I'll need a takeaway container please. I'll need this dish to go. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just now, The Invested Beard said: I like the first three. After that it's pretty downhill. The 4th book is where it lost me completely. The second two were ok but really a let down for me after the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge Boy Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Alderant said: Uhh...Odium's shard isn't rage. It's hatred. Odium is latin for hatred, so Kaladin driven to rage for the sake of protection doesn't mean that he will be Odium's champion. If you're just going off of the pure emotion related to a Shard, then Adolin or Shallan would even be a better candidate than Kaladin at this moment. He's said before that in order to kill he had to think of things in terms of "us" and "them". We see that ability to differentiate corroding, as he comes to empathize and care for the parshmen. That's a far cry from becoming the fighting embodiment of hatred. Okay, so replace where I wrote "Rage" with the word "Hatred". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Bridge Boy said: Okay, so replace where I wrote "Rage" with the word "Hatred". I don't really get the feeling Kaladin empathizing with the freed Parshmen equates to hatred on any level. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Cole Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 8 hours ago, Steeldancer said: Beware of the no mating, lest it turn into the next Stick. just saying. I have to say, these chapters weren't as interesting. I do think Sebarial is worth watching. I already love his disgusting character, and am interested to see where it goes. No Hating! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Regarding the "style" of the Kaladin chapters. This is possibly a conscious choice to give greater variety. In tWoK, Shallan's chapters were often fairly low tension early on, to give a sort of "breather" to readers - if every chapter is super tense then the lack of variety and contrast actually undermines the tension. In OB, Dalinar's chapters are full of tension, for the most part, though the strength of the tension is not that high currently. Shallan's chapters veer across a wide range of emotions. Kaladin's chapters are more of an ocean of stability... for now. I'm sure this'll change at some point. Putting it another way, Kaladin is currently the bread in the sandwich. I agree with previous posts that what Kaladin is doing is almost certainly the right thing. I've said it before that the Parshendi/Parshman are probably victims of Odium. I'm pretty sure that Brandon has said that they were on the planet before any Shards got involved. Meaning, they're the natives and got caught up in the war. The main question to me then becomes - is it possible to protect them from Odium's influence long term? If they'll all become "evil" sooner or later then that's one thing but if not then they're potential allies instead, but only if they can learn to trust each other. While what Kaladin is doing is something of a repeat of tWoK, the context is very different - in tWoK he was in a position of weakness and was unquestionably doing the right thing while here he is in a position of strength but it's more ambiguous as to whether he is doing is right or not. However, Syl doesn't seem to be against Kaladin trying to help them. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 The epigraphs are fluffy enough - has anyone checked if they are a code? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: Putting it another way, Kaladin is currently the bread in the sandwich. My brain read this as "Kaladin is currently a bread sandwich". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge Boy Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said: I don't really get the feeling Kaladin empathizing with the freed Parshmen equates to hatred on any level. I'll admit that at this point this line of thinking is still a reach. However, I am not equating empathy with hate. I am predicting that hate will be the product of empathy, suffering, and honor. Kaladin cares for, empathizes, and relates to these parshendi. Lets say that next these parshendi arrive at Kholinar and Alethi lighteyes kill them. Yet again Kaladin finds people he cares for being killed by Lighteyes. Insert Odium's influence on the parshendi while kaladin has aligned himself with this group. Where does that leave Kaladin but in a position where both Honor & Hatred would drive him to take action against the Alethi lighteyes. Do we genuinely believe Kaladin's hatred for lighteyes is past him? I Will Protect Even Those I Hate, So Long As It Is Right. The dude still hates lighteyes and what they have done to the world. In the situation with Moash, protecting Elhokar was what was right. But in this situation with the parshendi, what will Kaladin determine is right? But perhaps it doesn't go this way. Perhaps his parshendi friends don't die but instead are consumed by odium and changed. Again people Kaladin cares for are destroyed. What emotions arise? Hate for Odium? In either the question I want to find the answer to is, Is it possible for Honor & Hatred to be aligned. Ultimately, my favorite idea is that Kaladin's story arc will develop to the point where he realizes that Lirin was right after all. You cannot kill to protect. perhaps this leads him to abandon Syl. Perhaps this ideal in a nutshell is why the recreance happened. Without a doubt Brandon will prove all my careful consideration and theorizing wrong in the most exceptional way possible, but it sure is fun to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 hour ago, maxal said: We see Dalinar, the man, how he behaved during situation not implying fighting. I found him mentally simplistic, daft even, not to bright and brilliantly uninterested within politics. When did he become more intelligent? A visit to The Valley comes to my mind. BTW: No mating, yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRyan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Quote Outside the feast hall, a storm raged like a madman who’d been locked away, impotent and ignored. This was 30+ years before Taln but interesting word choice. Quote or—more commonly—we seize the high ground and use that vantage to pound the city for a while.” The cover shows Jasnah repairing the walls of a city (Kholinar?). Perhaps the Voidbringers understand siege warfare in Alethkar too. Quote They were Kholin, heirs to one of the world’s great cities—even if Dalinar had never seen the place before his twelfth year. Why had Dalinar never visited the city his family owned before he was 12? Where did they live before then? Who ran the city; was it one of the other "branches" of the family? If his branch of the family weren't "ruffians from the backwater" then what were they before the unification wars? Quote Navani’s hair glowed with the tiny rubies she’d woven into it, a color matched by her pendant and bracelet. Her face a sultry tan, her hair Alethi jet black, her red-lipped smile That's a lot of red you have there Odiu... I mean, Navani. Quote “His kids were too greedy,” Dalinar said, sawing at his steak. “Or too weak maybe. There wasn’t one of them that the others would agree to support.” “No, that’s not it,” Navani said. “They might have united, if the Sunmaker himself could have been bothered to settle on an heir. It’s his fault.” “He was off in the west,” Gavilar said. “Leading his army to ‘further glory.’ Alethkar and Herdaz weren’t enough for him. He wanted the whole world.” This could be a "current" day discussion on why Elhokar (or Dalinar) were having such trouble uniting the Highprinces and/or the monarchs of the world. The flashbacks seem to reference/foreshadow/explain the "present" day timeline pretty well I think. Quote “If someone insulted my biceps, I wouldn’t attack him,” Dalinar said. “I’d refer him to a physician, because obviously something is wrong with his eyes.” Quote “Dunno.” Quote ‘Hey, all these people have stuff .’ And we figured… hey, maybe we should have that stuff. So we took it.” These lines feel wrong to me. I like them. They are funny. But they seem out-of-place. Like when Lift says "awesomeness" or how some people felt when Syl told Kaladin to "stretch forth thy hand". The sentiment is appreciated but the delivery does not fit the theme/setting very well imo. Overall, I thought this was a fantastic chapter. I am very interested to see how the Dalinar we see here becomes the Dalinar we know today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humpty Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 So my thoughts on what Mraize is up to. I think things are going to quickly come to a head. Mraize was probably going to blackmail Adolin or at least use it as leverage in order to gain control of another princedom. He seems to have control or at least a lot of influence with the sadeas camp. He has control of Shallan at least untill she grows a set and tells Dalinar and Adolin about the Ghostbloods. It would be nice if Adolin just threw the fact that he killed Sadeas in a fair contest in Ialai's face. I hope Shallan puts on her Radiant persona and severs both of Mraizes hands then remarks on how amusing its going to be watching him try to load his blow dart gun with two blade dead hands. But that last parts just wishful thinking though. But if she wont do it then maybe we will see Blackthorn Jr do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, Humpty said: So my thoughts on what Mraize is up to. I think things are going to quickly come to a head. Mraize was probably going to blackmail Adolin or at least use it as leverage in order to gain control of another princedom. He seems to have control or at least a lot of influence with the sadeas camp. He has control of Shallan at least untill she grows a set and tells Dalinar and Adolin about the Ghostbloods. It would be nice if Adolin just threw the fact that he killed Sadeas in a fair contest in Ialai's face. I hope Shallan puts on her Radiant persona and severs both of Mraizes hands then remarks on how amusing its going to be watching him try to load his blow dart gun with two blade dead hands. But that last parts just wishful thinking though. But if she wont do it then maybe we will see Blackthorn Jr do it. Or he is going to use the event to test Shallan's loyalties. She is to be Shallan as long as Veil is loyal to the Ghostbloods. Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if Ialai stroke a deal with the Ghostbloods in order to secure her revenge on the Kholins. Mraize could demand Shallan to stay true to her "real allegiances" by condemning Adolin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 So how does everyone pronounce Evi 1. Ee - vee 2. Eh - vee 3. Ee - vi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterion137 Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, ScavellTane said: So how does everyone pronounce Evi 1. Ee - vee 2. Eh - vee 3. Ee - vi i pronounce it like the pokemon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 So Kaladin is just pretending not to be able to see/hear the yellow Voidspren, right? The ending to Chapter 15 being from his POV certainly suggests he heard it give the alert about him being in the bushes. So the reawakened parshmen can sense/hear the distant rhythms of other Listeners, but they don't know what it means. More tellingly, they don't do the Rhythms among themselves - suggesting that other "reborn" parshmen don't, either. Conclusion: some of the original "Parshendi" survived and are out there singing the Music of the Void. I won't venture to guess as to whether Ialai is a Ghostblood, or if she's being used as a puppet or tool by Mraize. Though I'd be inclined to guess at the latter, as I don't see the GBs tipping their hand to Shallan like that. He's going to play to Shallan Davar, the conformant and noble Radiant, while speaking double talk to bind Veil the Lightweaving Spy into their number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozndevl Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pattern said: When did he become more intelligent? A visit to The Valley comes to my mind. BTW: No mating, yet! I see it less that he wasn't intelligent, but more that he didn't care. He's sharp enough to realize that people go to war for stuff. And I pronounce it Eh-vee Edited October 11, 2017 by frozndevl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 So Shallan still isn't allowed to play chess OR divide by zero I just can't relate to her haha. I wonder how much (if at all) the Stormlight shortage has affected Zahel, and how exactly he dealt with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 @Darkness ooh! Good question about Zahel. On Dalinar, I don’t see him as unintelligent, just wilfully simple. He cares about fighting. He doesn’t want to involve himself in more complicated things, so he doesn’t. He doesn’t want to be complicated or sophisticated. He just wants to be the Blackthorn. Modern Dalinar has simply learned to pay attention to more complicated things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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