[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[kiapet]

5 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

I think he identifies far better with the Parshmen than he does with the Alethi. He loathes the idea of having to one day encounter Parshmen like this on the battlefield. I think the more time he travels with him the more it could chip away at his conviction that humans are the good guys in this conflict. I don't know but perhaps Syl leaves him once and for all after he has these kinds of thoughts and he turns to Odium to fill the void that she leaves.

\Pure speculation on my part.

I highly doubt empathy for one's enemy is a trait evil enough to lead one to join Odium. And again, Kaladin has already seen the Alethi elite at their worst, and chose to stick with Dalinar because he is a just man with the intention and power to save the world. Kaladin knows that in the end, millions of innocent people would die if he sided with these Parshmen as they became Voidbringers; that's why it hurts him so much to befriend them now.

[sooyangi]

I agree that Kaladin's chapters are way too short. I feel for the moral dilemma Kaladin is in, I feel for the way the Parshman feel, and I hope the they don't end up being evil either... Also I guess the voidspren is a she?

 

Edited October 10, 2017 by sooyangi

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In that case, keeping on killing people in the same way Sadeas died would have been preferable.

Nope. Copy the first murder and keep the chain going. Adolin knows it originates from his actions, use a quiet moment to tell him. Make it look coincidental and mysterious, pressure Adolin into a confession. Keep murdering people in the way Sadeas died and you draw attention to yourself. Everyone knows, that Ialai is a snake, but by making it look coincidental and mysterious, she can keep the attention from herself and keep playing the grieving wife. And honestly, who would dare to accusate a widow.

Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC

[Aon Ati]

19 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

Damnation is Kaladin going to end up being Odium's champion?

"...and one of them will betray us." from Way of Kings. STOP SCARING ME! I don't want Kaladin to be the bad guy!

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Nope. Copy the first murder and keep the chain going. Adolin knows it originates from his actions. Make it look coincidental and mysterious, pressure Adolin into a confession. Keep murdering people in the way Sadeas died and you draw attention to yourself. Everyone knows, that Ialai is a snake, but by making it look coincidental and mysterious, she can keep the attention from herself and keep playing the grieving wife.

Hmm... those are good points. I'm not convinced though. The exactness of the murders... why do you have to confuse me? I'll stay in the Unmade/monster camp for now, but Ialai/Mraize works better than I first thought.

Edit: How is Ialai supposed to know Adolin killed Sadeas though?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

I think the more time he travels with him the more it could chip away at his conviction that humans are the good guys in this conflict.

Here's your problem. What makes you think "humans" are the good guys here? 

I think we're going to have members of both races on both sides of this fight. Being human doesn't mean a thing. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

How is Ialai supposed to know Adolin killed Sadeas though?

Oh, she just wants revenge.

Adolin was openly hostile to Sadeas and she probably just wants to get back at Dalinar. She doesn't know it, but she suspects it. What does she care about being correct?

Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC

[BlackYeti]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Nope. Copy the first murder and keep the chain going. Adolin knows it originates from his actions. Make it look coincidental and mysterious, pressure Adolin into a confession. Keep murdering people in the way Sadeas died and you draw attention to yourself. Everyone knows, that Ialai is a snake, but by making it look coincidental and mysterious, she can keep the attention from herself and keep playing the grieving wife.

How would Adolin know that it originates from his actions? It was done in such a way that it's likely that he wouldn't ever find out about it, and if he did, he'd likely be as confused about it as we are.

Edited October 10, 2017 by BlackYeti

[Guest]

Just now, BlackYeti said:

How would Adolin know that it originates from his actions? It's was done is such a way that it's likely that he wouldn't ever find out about it, and if he did, he'd likely be as confused about it as we are.

Which is why I added "tell him in a quiet moment", like the one we have coming up. Sorry, edited it afterwards.

[WhiteLeeopard]

The Ialai-Mraize vs. Adolin-Shallan confrontation is going to be tough. But if Adolin had gone on his own without Shallan I would have been much more worried. Shallan adds a lot of variables and dangers, but also may give him a chance to get out of there with some skin left. On his own he'd probably drown. Same goes for Shallan, having Adolin with her might give her a slight shield from Mraize. 

I suspect Ialai is a strong player, but also not part of any ss (secret society). Not yet at least, she and Sadeas were likely too independent/proud to be part of something greater than their own greed.

I also think if it weren't for Mraize having Shallan's brothers she would have no qualms over killing them both there and then. Then again, so nice to point out they don't have a drop of stormlight left.

The biggest question I'm left with, is why was Mraize originally there. As Adolin's decision to take Shallan with him was apparently a bit impromptu. Veil hadn't given them an answer yet, she may still join them. Alienating her now (by drowning her fiance) would not be a good move...yet. At the same time helping her could also be somewhat premature. Sigh, GB are just too hard to predict when we know nothing of their goals. When you know what someone wants you can speculate, without knowing that we are in the dark.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I also think if it weren't for Mraize having Shallan's brothers she would have no qualms over killing them both there and then.

I might be biased for Mraize, but I wonder if he really is that easy to kill. He is a Worldhopper, and doesn't seem to be scared in the least of Shallan when she points Pattern at him in WoR.

[WhiteLeeopard]

5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I might be biased for Mraize, but I wonder if he really is that easy to kill. He is a Worldhopper, and doesn't seem to be scared in the least of Shallan when she points Pattern at him in WoR.

I agree Mraize will not be easy to kill. But Shallan with enough stormlight is probably quite dangerous. For one thing she can be as ruthless as Mraize when she is protecting those she cares about. Honestly, not sure who would kill who in those circumstances. But suspect it could go either way. I suspect that while the GB are insanely powerful a great deal of their power comes from always having the person in front of them with their backs to the wall. Lets be honest, they had been trying to kill Jasnah for a while, and didn't suceed. Their closest success was through offshore assasins. 

So far the GB's biggest weapons seem to be: ruthlessness and information

Edited October 10, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Starla]

15 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

I think he identifies far better with the Parshmen than he does with the Alethi. He loathes the idea of having to one day encounter Parshmen like this on the battlefield. I think the more time he travels with him the more it could chip away at his conviction that humans are the good guys in this conflict. I don't know but perhaps Syl leaves him once and for all after he has these kinds of thoughts and he turns to Odium to fill the void that she leaves.

I don't think he would distinguish between Alethi/Parshman who need help. The parshmen haven't become voidbringers yet. He is helping them in the same way he helped the human bridgemen and his former fellow slaves, and their species/race does not matter. I cannot see him siding with Odium and voidbringers against the humans he has protected, including the bridgemen, his family, and the general innocent commoners of Roshar,

I think his focus will be to prevent the parshmen from becoming voidbringers, and serving as a bridge between them and humans. Untransformed parshmen could be an asset to fight alongside humans against the voidbringers. I see this dilemma as fulfilling his Windrunner oaths, not breaking them.

[Ramza1890]

2 minutes ago, Aon Ati said:

"...and one of them will betray us." from Way of Kings. STOP SCARING ME! I don't want Kaladin to be the bad guy!

RIGHT??? This is what I was thinking too!

 

5 minutes ago, kiapet said:

I highly doubt empathy for one's enemy is a trait evil enough to lead one to join Odium. And again, Kaladin has already seen the Alethi elite at their worst, and chose to stick with Dalinar because he is a just man with the intention and power to save the world. Kaladin knows that in the end, millions of innocent people would die if he sided with these Parshmen as they became Voidbringers; that's why it hurts him so much to befriend them now.

I don't think that this will happen overnight. If he travels too long with these Parshmen he might grow attached to them in a similar fashion to how he felt about Bridge Four. If he replicates the level of desire to protect them as he had with Bridge Four and they still decide to go to war with their former oppressors I think Kaladin will have a real moral dilemma on his hands.

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Here's your problem. What makes you think "humans" are the good guys here? 

I think we're going to have members of both races on both sides of this fight. Being human doesn't mean a thing. 

I think that is an incredibly likely theory that there will be members of both races on both sides of this fight. I can see human slaves fighting for Odium because it represents a chance to turn the status quo on it's head. It represents a chance to topple the ruler ship by eye color system that gives an unfair shake to those people born with a darker shade of eye. I can see Kaladin attaching himself to those ideals. Right now I think he is still far more like a  disgruntled slave than a proper Alethi.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I agree Mraize will not be easy to kill. But Shallan with enough stormlight is probably quite dangerous. For one thing she can be as ruthless as Mraize when she is protecting those she cares about. Honestly, not sure who would kill who in those circumstances. But suspect it could go either way. I suspect that while the GB are insanely powerful a great deal of their power comes from always having the person in front of them with their backs to the wall. Lets be honest, they had been trying to kill Jasnah for a while, and didn't suceed. Their closest success was through offshore assasins. 

True. But then again, they didn't really send their best guys at it. Mraize or Iyatil would have produced better results, I imagine. And you are right about Shallan being dangerous. I doubt she could kill Mraize in a one on one fight though. He is too experienced, with the Almighty knows what up his sleeves. Shallan hardly has Stormlight right now, and Adolin is without his plate and needs ten heartbeats to summon his blade. As it stands at this meeting, I'd say Mraize and Team Sadeas has the upper hand in an eventual fight.

[Asrael]

As a married man, the fact that Adolin and Shallan have engaged in extended conversation about taking craps and periods is the strongest indicator their relationship is genuine. I'm just waiting for one of them to fart out loud and I'll know It's true love  

[StormingTexan]

Tuesday is quickly becoming my least productive workday.. 

Wow Dalinar was such a badass. Really curious about the thing he saw in the storm. The plate was stollen hmm.

Again I am really surprised (pleasantly I might add) at the direction Brandon is going with the Parshmen. I like that Kaladin is facing this moral dilemma it makes for a much better story than the Parshman just turning in to voidbringers. Khen seems to be a free thinker too which makes me think there will be some resistance.

I loved the "No Mating" comment from Pattern that was completely ignored by Shallan and Adolin. I thought it was interesting Shallan questioning how she acted as Veil. |Adolin seems to want to confess to her... Once again these chapters end on a HUGE cliffhanger. 

I know this is supposed to be Dalinar's book and the flash backs are cool just because Dalinar was such a badass but Shallan's chapters continue to be the most interesting to me by far. These preview chapters are a curse! 

 

[Guest]

Oh, and regarding the Ialai situation.

Mraize has Shallan's brothers, which in turn can be used to put pressure on Adolin due to his relationship with Shallan.

[Ramza1890]

2 minutes ago, Starla said:

I don't think he would distinguish between Alethi/Parshman who need help. The parshmen haven't become voidbringers yet. He is helping them in the same way he helped the human bridgemen and his former fellow slaves, and their species/race does not matter. I cannot see him siding with Odium and voidbringers against the humans he has protected, including the bridgemen, his family, and the general innocent commoners of Roshar,

I think his focus will be to prevent the parshmen from becoming voidbringers, and serving as a bridge between them and humans. Untransformed parshmen could be an asset to fight alongside humans against the voidbringers. I see this dilemma as fulfilling his Windrunner oaths, not breaking them.

That is really what I hope as well. I don't want Kaladin to become Odium's champion I can just see how the story might unfold that way. I want Kaladin to fly into battle against the Voidbringers surrounded by all his Bridgemen/Parshendi squires. I mean how incredible would it be to see, in the inevitable Kaladin comes to the rescue scene in Oathbringer, a bunch of former Parshmen and Bridgemen land in a circle on the field of battle with Kaladin landing in the middle of them a few seconds later. I would have chills again.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

I think that is an incredibly likely theory that there will be members of both races on both sides of this fight. I can see human slaves fighting for Odium because it represents a chance to turn the status quo on it's head. It represents a chance to topple the ruler ship by eye color system that gives an unfair shake to those people born with a darker shade of eye. I can see Kaladin attaching himself to those ideals. Right now I think he is still far more like a  disgruntled slave than a proper Alethi.

That wasn't my point at all. It's not just going to be slaves and people who feel disadvantaged. 

It's all going to about choice. The things Kaladin is doing are for the right reasons. He recognizes that yes, these people are angry, but they're angry for reasons that are justified and that the humans here are wrong. What he's learning needs to be learned. 

Dalinar is operating under the idea that all of these Parshmen are Evil. How much different do you think this would be if instead of try to set up the world to kill an enemy, they were looking to the Azir and trying to negotiate and create a lasting peace? 

The more brutal the fighting is to start, the more of the Parshmen will willing throw themselves into Voidforms. What Kaladin is doing is the only way to try and prevent that. They need to be seen for the people they are, and have their Autonomy and dignity both built up and respected. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Calderis

[Duke of Lizards]

So, Ialai could be presented in this manner (accompanied by a Ghostblood/possibly a member of the Ghostbloods) as an antagonist to Shallan, or this could be the beginning of a [not so] beautiful relationship for her.  I may be alone in this, but the prospect (though unlikely) of Shallan under the tutelage of this master manipulator excites me a bit!

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

These preview chapters are a curse! 

And a boon. Brandon = Nightwatcher confirmed. 

3 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

in the inevitable Kaladin comes to the rescue scene in Oathbringer, 

I'd rather we skip that this time around. It would be nice if Kaladin himself got rescued for a change of pace.

[DSC01]

1 hour ago, Mulk said:

Feels like Brandon's been paying attention a lot to interracial relations lately.  Conversations between Sah and Kaladin could have been lifted out of today's real life in America.  I'm feeling sympathy for the parshmen and wishing they don't turn evil.  Brandon really is an evil genius some days.

Dalinar...just...damnation man.  He's a walking thunderstorm of contradiction, raw stubbornness and crackling willpower.  Really wondering how he changed from all of that to who he is now.

Shallan and Adolin are a hilarious couple together.  I can't say at all that I'm surprised Mraize shows up for that meeting though I'd really hoped not.  I already thought this was going to be messy.  This sort of confirms it...

I am really happy that the conversations are turning out this way. Fantasy does not have a great track record of dealing with interracial relations responsibly. Even when authors go beyond simple constructions where race A is Good and race B is Evil, they rarely address the race relations in a meaningful way. I think that you can see how this has affected the thinking of fantasy fans (though society in general is also responsible) in how so many Stormlight fans talk about Kaladin being racist. Uh... No. He has very understandable prejudices against a class of people who have near-absolute power over him--power they have abused flagrantly throughout his life.

This is a very responsible way for Kaladin to wake up to the realities of injustice in his society. Some readers have been hard on him for not giving up his vendetta against his abusers quickly enough for their liking, and while such a position is pretty much nonsense, he does obviously need to work through those feelings. Putting Kaladin in a position where he needs to confront how the system he lives in also puts him in a position of being an abuser, taking advantage of those with less power than he has, is a very good way to approach this.

We may be getting a clue into how Odium operates, too. With him being essentially the god of hatred, we expect a whole lot of evil, but I think that we're going to see Odium take a totally different course than we expected. It looks like he's going to use justified hatred to work his ends. The parshmen are absolutely justified in their hatred. When other nations bargain with the Voidbringers, seeing it as being a choice between them and the Alethi, it may be their absolutely justified hatred for the evil in Alethi culture that sways them to side with the "bad guys." This is very interesting.

[Ramza1890]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That wasn't my point at all. It's not just going to be slaves and people who feel disadvantaged. 

It's all going to about choice. The things Kaladin is doing are for the right reasons. He recognizes that yes, these people are angry, but they're angry for reasons that are justified and that the humans here are wrong. What he's learning needs to be learned. 

Dalinar is operating under the idea that all of these Parshmen are Evil. How much different do you think this would be if instead of try to set up the world to kill an enemy, they were looking to the Azir and trying to negotiate and create a lasting peace? 

The more brutal the fighting is to start, the more of the Parshmen will willing throw themselves into Voidforms. What Kaladin is doing is the only way to try and prevent that. They need to be seen for the people they are, and have their Autonomy and dignity both built up and respected. 

What was your point then? Was it not that humans and parshmen are going to be on both sides of the battle? I agreed with that I just outlined what kinds of humans/parshmen might be drawn to Odium's cause and why.

I can totally understand why Kaladin is doing what he is doing with the parshmen I just worry that their situation might wear down his conviction and make him vulnerable to corruption.

One of them will end up being the betrayer and I think Kaladin's betrayal would come as the most shocking.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ramza1890

[Calderis]

@Ramza1890 maybe I overreacted. Your initial response made it sound like only the downtrodden and oppressed could end up serving Odium, when I see oppressive lighteyes wanting to maintain their unjust system just as likely.

Odium is hatred. Kaladin is far more likely to lose himself through lying to himself to allow him to think of "the enemy" as being worth killing than he is to have his convictions undermined by empathy.