[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[Erunion]

Ahhhhhhh give me more chapters!!! I want moar! 

 

To unpack what we have: 

Dalinar: Young Dalinar is incredible, and hilarious. But also scary. He seems almost intentionally simpleminded - as in he intentionally ignores things that don’t help him be The Blackthorn. I reckon that getting married was his first step towards being the Dalinar we all know and love. 

Important Things: Stormstriders! Possibly throwing boulders! Are they tangible creatures? Spren embodiments of the storms terror and power? Both? Also, the plate IS stolen, and Sadeas and Ialai, whatever else we may think of them, were a great couple. I wonder what they’d have been like without The Thrill. 

Kaladin: Ugh, give me more! Too little at a time. Sah continues to be intelligent and articulate, but clearly feeling some Odium towards the Humans. The voidspren is likely feeding that as much as possible. I strongly suspect that Rlain will be very important in the near future. I’m hoping that Kaladin will help protect the Parshfolk long enough for them to unify with the last of the Last Legion - giving us an army of Parshfolk fighting against the forces of Odium, fighting to free the Parshendi from slavery to Odium. Because that’s what this is about: Odium wants the Parshfolk to be slaves, a slavery and corruption of the mind more odious even than that which made them Parshfolk. 

Important Things: Sah is striking points home. Kaladin is resisting what will likely lead to his next oath. The Parshfolk don’t particularly like the Voidspren, and do hear the rhythms. Looks like they need a little Rlain in their lives. 

 

Shallan: Not much to say here. Shadolin continue to be absolutely charming together. Pattern is funny. Shallan is leading a somewhat destructive lifestyle. Adolin wants to confess, and things with Ialai are about to get interesting.  @maxal I think your fears are going to prove unfounded. The Murder plot progresses! (Finally!) 

[Asrael]

11 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

<on Odium> It looks like he's going to use justified hatred to work his ends.

This is why I'm really interested in Rayse as a character. In the greater story arc I really don't think Rayse/Odium will prove as slimy and despicable as Hoid suggests. We know Hoid used to be friends with Rayse and now holds a grudge against him. Whether Odiums original hatred is actually morally defensible in the end, I do think we will see that it is at least understandable. I expect Rayse will prove to be a very interesting character, and I further hope/suspect we will find him to be somewhat more in control of his shards intent somehow, perhaps because he already had a great deal of hatred before he took up its raw, divine form

[kari-no-sugata]

36 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Then again, so nice to point out they don't have a drop of stormlight left.

This is probably worth highlighting strongly. There's probably some Stormlight in the room but Shallan doesn't have any on her and neither does Adolin. It's not just the immediate problem here - Shallan is probably going to have to go without Stormlight for however long it takes until the next highstorm. She's now a lot more vulnerable. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Young Dalinar is a delightful meathead murder machine.  I'm not surprised Sadeas felt disapointed in the loss of Dalinar's Brock Samson persona.

[StormingTexan]

One more thing. Did anyone else think it was odd Adolin said this?  I guess I was surprised seeing HIM speak of investiture. 

Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”

Edit: Or am I reading too much in to this and he meant monetary investment as in trading an infused sphere for a dun sphere. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by StormingTexan

[flying_shadow]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Odium is hatred.

Specifically, hatred of someone due to their actions.

[The Invested Beard]

6 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

One more thing. Did anyone else think it was odd Adolin said this?  I guess I was surprised seeing HIM speak of investiture. 

Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”

Edit: Or am I reading too much in to this and he meant monetary investment as in trading an infused sphere for a dun sphere. 

I think the play on words was more about monetary investment as spheres are money. The Investiture thing would probably be unintentional.

[StormingTexan]

5 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I think the play on words was more about monetary investment as spheres are money. The Investiture thing would probably be unintentional.

Or Brandon is intentionally trolling me. 

Yeah ok the monetary thing makes more sense I just didn’t read it that way initially. 

[flying_shadow]

Evi's hair was mentioned, and she is unfamiliar with Alethi customs. Evi is Vivenna confirmed? 

[Ramza1890]

12 minutes ago, Kalinovsky said:

Specifically, hatred of someone due to their actions.

I can see the Parshmen stoking Kaladin's hatred again.

[The Invested Beard]

Just now, StormingTexan said:

Or Brandon is intentionally trolling me. 

Yeah ok the monetary thing makes more sense I just didn’t read it that way initially. 

Wouldn't it be hilarious to find out that Brandon is making small changes to each chapter released as he sees things that people are theorizing about?

[Mulk]

7 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I think the play on words was more about monetary investment as spheres are money. The Investiture thing would probably be unintentional.

That was my thought as well.

I also wanted you to know that I have off the wall ideas revolving around a magic system based in the growing of beards. Because this is a Sanderson forum, I may call it Beardvestiture...

[The Invested Beard]

Just now, Mulk said:

That was my thought as well.

I also wanted you to know that I have off the wall ideas revolving around a magic system based in the growing of beards. Because this is a Sanderson forum, I may call it Beardvestiture...

I'm listening.

[Mulk]

2 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I'm listening.

It's mostly ideas on a black/whiteboard at this point, but basically all beards have a basic amount of magic capabilities which can then be called forth based on the thickness, length and shape.  It has an unfortunate side effect of having generated an industry in beard protection as (like with Samson) if it is chopped off or mutilated in some way its powers are muted, distorted or outright destroyed depending on what exactly was done to it.

Other forms of magic exist of course.  But the flamboyant Beards are currently the best known and explored. 

I dunno, the whole thing makes me laugh so much that I keep poking at it.  and I have a beard!

[DocHoliday]

19 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I think the play on words was more about monetary investment as spheres are money. The Investiture thing would probably be unintentional.

I read through 6 pages of comments with that question quoted, to find you'd answered it 5 minutes be for I finished

I loved that pun about investing btw, even better cause Adolin was clueless.

Edited October 10, 2017 by DocHoliday

[The Invested Beard]

3 minutes ago, Mulk said:

It's mostly ideas on a black/whiteboard at this point, but basically all beards have a basic amount of magic capabilities which can then be called forth based on the thickness, length and shape.  It has an unfortunate side effect of having generated an industry in beard protection as (like with Samson) if it is chopped off or mutilated in some way its powers are muted, distorted or outright destroyed depending on what exactly was done to it.

Other forms of magic exist of course.  But the flamboyant Beards are currently the best known and explored. 

I dunno, the whole thing makes me laugh so much that I keep poking at it.  and I have a beard!

The ways of Beardspren are mysterious and hilarious while being incredibly serious and dour at the same time.

[The Invested Beard]

1 minute ago, DocHoliday said:

I read through 6 pages of comments with that question quoted, to find you'd answered it 5 minutes be for I finished

Beard magic.

[Mulk]

Just now, The Invested Beard said:

The ways of Beardspren are mysterious and hilarious while being incredibly serious and dour at the same time.

Dourspren variants are highly sought after...

[DocHoliday]

*Shock Spren*

[The Invested Beard]

2 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

*Shock Spren*

Shock spren were described almost as looking like the Triforce. I'm onto you Sanderson. Zelda is Cosmere confirmed.

[NoiseSpren]

I love the scene with the steak and knife.. Dalinar was pretty badass.

[IllNsickly]

My pennies on the pile for the odd, barely comprehensible Shallan quip.

I drink a fair amount and wake up hung over on a semi-regular basis. In that state, clever quips seldom come out right or make sense. The cleverness doesn't translate well through that particular fog.

I think it fit nicely in that context.

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, Ramza1890 said:

What was your point then? Was it not that humans and parshmen are going to be on both sides of the battle? I agreed with that I just outlined what kinds of humans/parshmen might be drawn to Odium's cause and why.

I can totally understand why Kaladin is doing what he is doing with the parshmen I just worry that their situation might wear down his conviction and make him vulnerable to corruption.

One of them will end up being the betrayer and I think Kaladin's betrayal would come as the most shocking.

I think you're kind of missing the point of the greater conflict.  Odium is hatred.  The world has taught itself to view the conflict as one between humans and parshmen, when really that's just serving to strengthen Odium's position.  A never-ending battle and generations of ingrained hatred is exactly what Odium would want.  War, hatred, atrocities, and slavery just breed more of the same.  When Honor's vision was telling Dalinar to unite "them", he likely wasn't just referring to humanity, but all sentient life on Roshar, Parshendi included.

The only way to defeat Odium is to break the cycle of hate between humans and Parshendi.  And right now Kaladin may be the only person to grasp that his oaths to protect don't stop with the human race.  In this sense you're right, Kaladin may indeed become the betrayer of his side on the surface-level conflict, but doing so is the opposite of becoming Odium's champion.  He will be truly embodying the principles of honor and opposing the machinations of Odium, perhaps for the first time since the Recreance.

Actually, now I'm starting to become convinced that this is the true cause of the Recreance.  Ishi and the Heralds thought they saw a way to break the cycle of Desolations, and used the power of the Bondsmiths (perhaps not telling them the full details of what they were doing) to brutalize the souls of Parshendi everywhere.  Witnessing the results of their actions: the enslavement and lobotomizing of nearly the entire Parshendi race, was too morally repulsive to support and the old Radiants abandoned their orders.  The Radiants were probably remembered as traitors by humanity for just this reason, they didn't go along with the mass-enslavement of the Parshendi.

[IllNsickly]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

 

Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”

Double meaning seems unlikely, I read it more as a currency reference.

[Ramza1890]

13 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think you're kind of missing the point of the greater conflict.  Odium is hatred.  The world has taught itself to view the conflict as one between humans and parshmen, when really that's just serving to strengthen Odium's position.  A never-ending battle and generations of ingrained hatred is exactly what Odium would want.  War, hatred, atrocities, and slavery just breed more of the same.  When Honor's vision was telling Dalinar to unite "them", he likely wasn't just referring to humanity, but all sentient life on Roshar, Parshendi included.

The only way to defeat Odium is to break the cycle of hate between humans and Parshendi.  And right now Kaladin may be the only person to grasp that his oaths to protect don't stop with the human race.  In this sense you're right, Kaladin may indeed become the betrayer of his side on the surface-level conflict, but doing so is the opposite of becoming Odium's champion.  He will be truly embodying the principles of honor and opposing the machinations of Odium, perhaps for the first time since the Recreance.

Actually, now I'm starting to become convinced that this is the true cause of the Recreance.  Ishi and the Heralds thought they saw a way to break the cycle of Desolations, and used the power of the Bondsmiths (perhaps not telling them the full details of what they were doing) to brutalize the souls of Parshendi everywhere.  Witnessing the results of their actions: the enslavement and lobotomizing of nearly the entire Parshendi race, was too morally repulsive to support and the old Radiants abandoned their orders.  The Radiants were probably remembered as traitors by humanity for just this reason, they didn't go along with the mass-enslavement of the Parshendi.

I mean I understand what Odium is, I'm just not totally sure whether Kaladin will elevate the Parshendi's mindset or allow himself to fall back into anger and hatred.