[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[teknopathetic]

We have our first mention of pre-everstom Yellow Spren: Shockspren.  Hmmmm.

[teknopathetic]

4 hours ago, Stark said:

More Gender dynamics!  The Easterners are unfamiliar with safepouches, and Navani is snide! Palona barely conceals hers for massage, open air with guests too!  Shallan explains that not everything should be blamed on periods, common immature/misogynist male mistake encountered and defeated.

 

To be fair, Adolin only leaps to that conclusion because 'woman-times' is so frequently used as a side-step by women at the court. Both genders are playing into the narrative. Even after Shallan chides him, she decides to use the excuse.

Edited October 10, 2017 by teknopathetic

[flying_shadow]

Quote

We have our first mention of pre-everstom Yellow Spren: Shockspren.

I'm fairly sure that we've seen those in a previous chapter.

[teknopathetic]

On 2017-10-10 at 7:50 AM, redbishop said:

I think we are basically getting a montage of Kaladin deciding that he relates more to the ex-Parshmen than he does to Lighteyes, and he just recently came to terms with that.  The montage allows us to see hints of what he is doing without giving away too much.

 

What Kaladin is doing is basically EXACTLY what the heralds do for humanity after a desolation: teach them how to forge tools and use medicine. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Govir]

11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

What Kaladin is doing is basically EXACTLY what the heralds do for humanity after a deflation: teach them how to forge tools and use medicine. 

Yeah, that was my thought as well. Gave me a fleeting idea that maybe it's the Parshmen that lose their civilization each desolation and are the ones that need to be taught up from the beginning.

[StormingTexan]

47 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

When Honor's vision was telling Dalinar to unite "them", he likely wasn't just referring to humanity, but all sentient life on Roshar, Parshendi included.

I think you are right on this. Actually he may have meant specifically uniting humans and Parshendi. Dalinar took it to just mean unite the kingdoms. 

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

Whatever Honor meant with the unite them I'm 90% sure Dalinar is doing it wrong. It will most likely be either the Roshar races, or the KR. The kingdoms are likely an afterthought.

[vividox]

Overall feelings of Prologue + 1 through 21 so far:

I absolutely love that the Parshendi aren't straight up Voidbringers. Having these re-born thinking Parshmen with families and feelings and want of freedom has introduced such a complex and empathetic dynamic to what everyone assumed to be a fight between good and evil. Looking back at WoR, I shouldn't have been surprised: the Parshendi were on the cusp of making a truce, but for the ill-timed discovery of the voidspren.

I am not sure what I expected of the political dynamic going into Oathbringer, but it wasn't this. Alethkar itself seems just as fractured as before the Everstorm, with Thanadal and Vamah lording over the war camps instead of joining the rest of the highprinces in Urithiru. The Western nations being cautious to work with or flat out refusing to work with Dalinar despite the truth behind his warnings only makes sense in light of Dalinar's past. At the end of Words of Radiance, it seemed as though Dalinar had tackled one obstacle (Alethkar) and was well on his way to the next (Roshar), but so far that has been a very rocky road. Which is a good thing, IMO.

Despite seeing huge question marks with regard to the future of the Parshendi and the political challenges, we've had several nice moments: Kaladin being reunited with his parents, Shallan and Adolin's relationship progression, Dalinar and Navani's marriage, etc.

We're only 22 chapters in so far, and we're not even at a good stopping point yet, but I've really enjoyed the book so far. More than anything, though, I am so completely ready to plow through the rest of this book in a couple of long evenings on my couch. How is November 14th still so far away?

P.S. One last thing, I am really chomping at the bit to read about the aftermath of Dalinar remembering Evi. I really, really wanted to pick up right there this week. 

[kari-no-sugata]

2 minutes ago, vividox said:

P.S. One last thing, I am really chomping at the bit to read about the aftermath of Dalinar remembering Evi. I really, really wanted to pick up right there this week. 

And if the next chapter is about that we'll all start screaming about the Mraize cliffhanger!

[Starla]

What if Ialai accuses Shallan of the murder to get Adolin to confess? Adolin is probably high on her list of suspects, but she doesn’t have proof. Instead of accusing Adolin directly, she accuses his betrothed, eliciting a confession from Adolin to protect Shallan. Ialai has known Adolin his whole life, and probably knows he is honorable and would not let an innocent person take the blame for his crime.

[vividox]

Just now, kari-no-sugata said:

And if the next chapter is about that we'll all start screaming about the Mraize cliffhanger!

Exactly! Haha.

[StormingTexan]

10 minutes ago, vividox said:

I absolutely love that the Parshendi aren't straight up Voidbringers. Having these re-born thinking Parshmen with families and feelings and want of freedom has introduced such a complex and empathetic dynamic to what everyone assumed to be a fight between good and evil. Looking back at WoR, I shouldn't have been surprised: the Parshendi were on the cusp of making a truce, but for the ill-timed discovery of the voidspren.

100% agree on this. It is for sure the exact opposite of what i was anticipating. I guess that it exactly why I like Brandon's books so much. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

5 minutes ago, Starla said:

What if Ialai accuses Shallan of the murder to get Adolin to confess? Adolin is probably high on her list of suspects, but she doesn’t have proof. Instead of accusing Adolin directly, she accuses his betrothed, eliciting a confession from Adolin to protect Shallan. Ialai has known Adolin his whole life, and probably knows he is honorable and would not let an innocent person take the blame for his crime.

Shallan would likely laugh at Ialai's face. A KR (and might I remind only current person other than Renarin who can operate Oathgate in Urithiru) is not going to go down without strong proof. And even then, not sure anyone could do much to punish a KR. They are a bit necesary with the Desolation running around, and unlike the other kingdoms the Alethi have fought the Voidbringers already. They may fear the KR, but doubt anyone will try to kill one for the next couple of months. After some more KR appear, maybe.

[Asrael]

3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

100% agree on this. It is for sure the exact opposite of what i was anticipating. I guess that it exactly why I like Brandon's books so much. 

Truthfully, I'm kind of expecting this to be a set up for things to go south. So the parshmen are not Voidbringers... yet. I'm wondering if the next time the everstorm passes, or for other reasons in the near future they will be turned Voidbringer somewhat against their will. I just see Kaladin gaining sympathy for them and watching them willingly/unwillingly become monsters to destroy humanity, and it would make the fact that he has to fight them more emotionally impactful.

As further evidence towards my suspicion, consider Eshonai's circumstances along with the Parshendi that followed her. The Parshendi were just as "human" as any other characters until they fell for the trap of bonding with Voidspren, at which point they really were monsters of a sort (Eshonai at the least, I presume the change had similar effects on other Parshendi)

Edited October 10, 2017 by Asrael

[Goatbringer]

Absolutely excited to see Mraize back in the picture. Can't wait to get some more nuggets from him about the Ghostbloods and their aims. I'm really hoping for Ialai to say something like "ah this is my head steward, Flim-Flam" or something and just discount him as a person she considers uninteresting. That, to me, would be a whole lot juicier than Ialai and Mraize somehow working together. 

I will admit, when most people went all googly eyed about Adolin and Shallan being all cutesy in the last few chapters I didn't really buy into it. But now I'm starting to grow into it. Brandon's doing a good job of making them grow slowly more comfortable around each other and you can kind of see hints of a legitimate relationship starting there. I will say though, as I am an absolute sadist I'd love to see it get screwed up whether by Adolin admitting to the murder or Kaladin showing up or something. Can't have a good, stable relationship between main characters this early in the series. 

Also, I've been quite the stoic reader since starting these preview chapters but I will admit to having my first laugh out loud moment when Pattern quips 'no mating' from the wall. Absolutely fantastic. 10/10 would easily watch some Pattern standup comedy.

[StormingTexan]

1 minute ago, Asrael said:

Truthfully, I'm kind of expecting this to be a set up for things to go south. So the parshmen are not Voidbringers... yet. I'm wondering if the next time the everstorm passes, or for other reasons in the near future they will be turned Voidbringer somewhat against their will. I just see Kaladin gaining sympathy for them and watching them willingly/unwillingly become monsters to destroy humanity, and it would make the fact that he has to fight them more emotionally impactful.

It is possible it will go this way for sure but from what we have seen I am leaning more towards they have to make a choice to become voidbringers instead of it being against their will. I have nothing to base this on except for the fact they did not automatically become voidbringers it is just a gut feeling. Of course plenty of them can choose to. 

[Asrael]

3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

It is possible it will go this way for sure but from what we have seen I am leaning more towards they have to make a choice to become voidbringers instead of it being against their will. I have nothing to base this on except for the fact they did not automatically become voidbringers it is just a gut feeling. Of course plenty of them can choose to. 

I think I'm with you... I think it will be more voluntary than involuntary.  But they are going to become semi-mindless rage monsters of evil at some point.

[JoyBlu]

As Usual -- first impressions without reading other responses.

Chapter 19: The Subtle Art of Diplomacy

Soulcasting & Emeralds = Emeralds are for wood, plants, and moss.  5 Palah; Learned, Giving

Ialai -- I loved the observations about Ialai in this chapter.  The creative way to "Get rid" of those problematic allies.  That combined with her love of masculine food, tells me that she thinks more like a man!  I was surprised to see her described as "squatter form".  I had always imagined her elegant and beautiful and wickedly smart as she lounged on her furniture.  Navani is curvy in compassion -- but I didn't see Ialai as squaty before.  I'm sure we haven't even seen the beginning of Ialai's schemes.  I still think she and Amaram will work together -- if not marry each other.

Quote

“Hopefully,” Gavilar noted, “my accomplishments won’t be as ephemeral as his.”

“Ephemeral! He reforged Alethkar, Brightlord! You shouldn’t speak so of one like him. You’re his descendant, correct?”

So I had to look up Ephemeral.  Here is the definition in case anyone else was wondering what the word meant.

Ephemeral: lasting one day only; lasting a very short time

and since I still had the dictionary open and I thought the women's description of Evi was important I wanted to be sure about the word vapid . . .

Quote

“We’ve been assessing the sister,” Ialai said, leaning in from Gavilar’s other side. “She’s a touch vapid—”

“A touch?” Navani asked.

“—but I’m reasonably sure she’s being honest.”

Vapid: lacking flavor, zest, interest, animation, or spirit : flat, dull

 

I really enjoyed the knife in this chapter and how it showed Dalinar in so many roles. A hungry, impatient man, a friend (he lent it to Teleb), a distraction (from Navani), how he bent the knife, how he went into the storm to retrieve it (his shortsightedness and impatience again) and a protector (from the assassin), and how he used the knife to eat afterwards.  The killing didn't phase him at all.  I'm guessing that one of the reasons Evi married him was so that he would protect her.  I'm guessing he failed at that.

Another observation is that the shardplate Toh/Evi took from Rira seems to have been more valuable and rare in Rira than it is in Alethkar.  So maybe they were hoping to get more from it that what they actually got out of it.  And what ever does happen to Toh? I don't think he is around in the present day.

Color & Spren Observations for Chapter 19 spoiled/hidden for length
 

Spoiler

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 19: The Subtle Art of Diplomacy

fearspren

hungerspren

shockspren -- triangles of yellow light and very rare

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 19: The Subtle Art of Diplomacy

deep violet wine

whitespine ivory

gaggle of servants in black and white

sultry tan

jet black (hair of Navani)

red-lipped smile

violet (wine)

tiny brown fly

pale yellow dress matched by her blonde hair

shockspren -- triangles of yellow light and very rare

 

Chapter 20: Cords to Bind

So many wonderful discussion points and fantastic lines in this chapter that are timeless truths depicted from opposing sides that are hard to comprehend sometimes. (I hate needing your help, men who use cords to bind are fools, tools vs, weapons, your people should be the ones who decide upon our freedom in the first place.")

Quote

I know it looks deep, but it’s often better to be cut deep by a sharp knife than to be raggedly gouged by something dull.”

This reads as foreshadowing to me. So what will be raggedly gouged by something dull?  Whatever it is that the inhabitants of Roshar is fighting. (And I do think all of the inhabitants, pasrhmen, all human ethnicities, parshindi, included will have to band together to defeat it.) I'm guessing we will finish the Oathbringer book and still not fulling understand what is repeatingly gouging us.

The yellowspren seems to be a void spren.  It still doesn't have a name, but it has rhythms. So interesting.

 

Color & Spren Observations for Chapter 20 spoiled/hidden for length

Spoiler

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 20: Cords to Bind

rotspren

yellow spren

voidspren

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 20: Cords to Bind

red ( infection)

yellow spren

 

Chapter 21: Set up to Fall

First off the word Fall is not used in this chapter at all. So who is being set up to fall; and to fall from where?

Besides the hilarious "No mating" again and the Mother Cultivation bits, There is a four way tie for my favorite lines from this chapter.

Quote

“Shallan?” Adolin said. “Are you decent?”

“Depends,” she said, voice croaking, “on the context. I’m decent at sleeping.”

 

Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”

 

My guards. Right. Shallan had a group of soldiers made up of deserters and despicable murderers. She didn’t mind that part, being a despicable murderer herself. But she also had no idea what to do with them.

 

“Ash’s eyes, no. I’d rather figure it out. A relationship needs some measure of mystery.”

I'm really enjoying the chapters with Adolin & Shallan together. There will be plenty of mystery on both sides. They are sharing intimate moments together (like just waking up) that is more old love, rather than new love.

Quote

“But I shouldn’t be blaming yesterday on that,” Shallan added to Adolin. “My time isn’t for another few weeks. Yesterday was more about psychology than it was about biology.”

Since when has Shallan been more truthful?   She is comfortable around Adolin, and lets her see her with her disheveled hair because she wants to be loved for who she really is -- not for what she pretends to be.

 

These next few descriptions remind me of how Lift uses stormlight.  Shallan needs some stormlight pancakes!

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Speaking of which, you don’t have any spheres with you, do you? I seem to have… um… eaten all of mine.”

She sucked in the Light hungrily

 

Now to Urithiru and the Strata. "Not even the first level had been explored" -- What is yet to be found? The strata is wide here.  And then the spoiling the strata in Sadeas area's.  Is that blasphemous to paint the walls like that? What is that strata leading to or trying to tell us?

 

Quote

“Do you really think I’m like my father?” Adolin said softly as they walked. There was a worried sense to his voice.

“You are,” she said, pulling his arm tight. “You’re just like him, Adolin. Moral, just, and capable.”

He frowned.

“What?”

“Nothing.”

“You’re a terrible liar. You’re worried you can’t live up to his expectations, aren’t you?”

“Maybe.”

So Shallan only knows the recent Dalinar.  Obviously Adolin doesn't quite agree with Shallan's assessment of his father. Dalinar may be capable but the young Dalinar was not moral.  What does Adolin remember about his father's past and his mother?

Color & Spren Observations for Chapter 21 spoiled/hidden for length

Spoiler

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 21: Set Up To Fall

no spren observed

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 21: Set Up To Fall

horneater white

vibrant red hair and pale skin (horneater woman)

single brown eye (Gaz)

forest green and white uniforms (Sadeas men)

dark expressions

green eyes (Ialai Sadeas)

 

Gaz & Vathah -- OK, I can see that. Ialai -- the fact that she is on the throne is fascinating. Perhaps she doesn't need to marry Amaram after all for a pawn to her influential power.  But Mraize?  Wasn't expecting that . . . . .

 

My thoughts are leading me to a situation where Ialai asks Adoling to investigate Sadeas murder as well and Adolin ends up turing himself in to save Shallan.  Also Shallan has zero stormlight left.  Zero.  Good thing Syl hinted at a storm coming.  But will it be 1 or 3 days? Will Adolin be able to get her out of this situation without stormlight? So much for not needing guards . . . . .

 

 

[Toaster Retribution]

I find it funny that everyone thought Ialai would ally with Amaram, but no one saw Mraize coming, despite the fact that he basically is Amarams counterpart in the Ghostbloods.

Speaking of Amaram, where the heck is he? Wasn´t he supposed to go to Urithiru? He is slow as a turtle.

[+eveorjoy]

I have not read anyone else's post. I will read after I post and edit as needed.

Chapter 19 - I figured this would be the next flashback. It is my favorite of the four released in Unfettered 2. I think Dalinar is just so funny in this chapter.

Need knife. Knife maybe in other building. Go walking in a highstorm. Why not? Knife not there, storm it. Walk back in the rain. Still need knife. Ah assassin brought knife. Good knife, just a little blood on it.

I don't mean to insult Dalinar, but there is something primal about him in this chapter that is funny to read about.

Evi is barely mentioned in this chapter. You will get your first impressions of her in the next chapter. Navani saw her as simple, but I disagree. Navani is being biased toward her own culture and language. I think when she considers Evi simple because she doesn't fit in. Anyway, I'm sure we will get the last flashback before part 1 is over.

Chapter 20

Kaladin's chapters have been short, but there isn't much to show here that we have not seen before with other characters in the series. Kaladin is right in his assessments. I wish the listeners would just go off somewhere and live a good life, but forces are not allowing for this. Kaladin is going to have some tough decisions to make coming up here. Poor Kaladin.  Poor listeners.  Oh and I called it. I knew they could hear the rhythms again even if they didn't speak to them.

Chapter 21 

More Adolin and Shallan being adorable. Shallan is comfortable being herself around Adolin. I still like them together and I hope when their breakup comes, it will not be permanent. Shallan showing more worrisome tendencies. I think she will be facing another truth before the end of the book. And the fact she accepts the murderers among her guards tells me that she will accept what Adolin did when she finds out. It may even bring them closer together.

And then that last sentence. I'm adding the part in parenthesis for clarification.  

Quote

Standing beside her(Iaial) was Mraize, one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods.

 I have to wait seven days before I can find out what is going on! Augh! Tor! 

What a cliffhanger. This is one of those times you want to flip a table over the three chapter limit.

At least I can read this early, but still it will be a rough wait. 

 

[Pattern]

5 hours ago, Starla said:

I think his focus will be to prevent the parshmen from becoming voidbringers, and serving as a bridge between them and humans. Untransformed parshmen could be an asset to fight alongside humans against the voidbringers. I see this dilemma as fulfilling his Windrunner oaths, not breaking them.

This reminds me of the next Oath for Kaladin I suspected last week. Something along the lines of

"I will even protect potential future enemies, as long as they are innocent."

Kaladin admits to himself he has to leave the Parshmen soon to be able to pretend they are the "evil" enemy and thus to be able to kill them in a fight. Well, Kaladin is not Shallan, I don't see him succeeding in pretending. That train is gone.

7 hours ago, Herald said:

Come on! Another week to wait 

I am starting to believe the single release of the Prologue was made to create all those cliffhangers in the following 3-chapters-each-week releases. I rarely looked forward to November like I do this year.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Pattern

[maxal]

Here are my personal impressions on the new chapters. I haven't read any of the other commentaries, so sorry if I echoed other people's thoughts.

Chapter 19

I have read this flashback before within The Thrill which means I do not have much to add to it. It remains one of my favorite flashbacks for Dalinar because, unlike the others, it depicts him during a non-battle situation. We see Dalinar, the man, how he behaved during situation not implying fighting. I found him mentally simplistic, daft even, not to bright and brilliantly uninterested within politics. He feels useless within all situations not requiring strength.

I thought it was interesting to read the Alethi way does not imply assassination: they would rather duel or do open fights.

Evi's entrance into the scene is as glorious as the first time I read it. 

Navani's treatment of Evi angers me greatly: she loses many brownies points for being this mean towards a stranger after a few hours only.

One thing which surprised me within those chapters is how Dalinar's marriage was an arranged one: WoK hinted he married out of love. He didn't. This was a revelation.

Chapter 20

I do not have much to say about it. I sincerely do not find Kaladin's story arc to be engaging. It is nothing against his character, but him training, once again, a group of misfits left out feels, once again, too similar to his arc in WoK. While I understand the commentary Brandon is trying to achieve here, I found myself wishing the Parshendis had turned into mindless Voicbringers. Currently, the whole Parshendi slavery arc feels like an arc within an arc: I am really missing great villains and infamous creatures here.

I generally like Kaladin's character, but each time I get to his viewpoint, I read quickly in order to get to the interesting ones faster...

Chapter 21

I loved it. Shallan's viewpoint is shaping up rather nicely. I was dubious towards her after WoR, not that I dislike her character, but her speculative story arc sounded boring (to me at least). What a change of things: I find Shallan so interesting now and Kaladin so mew.

We were treated with other Adolin/Shallan scenes, those was gorgeous as always. Pattern casually yelling: "No mating" in the background was hilarious. I see this frequently popping out as a recurring laughing joke. 

I love how Adolin and Shallan are getting more comfortable with each other, allowing to see each other in less than dignified situations (well this is for Shallan so far, we have yet to see Adolin with one displaced hair). They genuinely enjoy talking, bantering together and now Adolin asks a favor from Shallan. She agrees.

Nice insights on Adolin: yes he feels the pressure to be his father's son. His endeavor to sound like his father, to behave like his father, to mimic his father were heartbreaking. He tries so hard and yet, he knows he has failed: it makes him try even harder. Oh Adolin, you do not have to be  replica of your father. Speaking of which, I really want an Adolin viewpoint soon to see what is going on in his head. He fears not meeting up to his father's expectations (we knew this, but it is great to see it spell out in the book) and yet he isn't thinking about how Dalinar is a Radiant and he is not? Adolin commenting on his family being Radiants remain to be address, so hopefully his future viewpoints will broach it.

Ialai Sadeas. Finally. Something happen. And she sits on a throne with Mraize standing next to her. The Ghostblood theory now seems more probable: I didn't believe it but looks like the Ialai theory is also on track. Mystery. I like this twist. And Adolin is ill-at-ease with Ialai, she treats him like a child and surely he fears she'll see what he is desperately trying to hide. To follow.

So great chapters this week, after feeling the story was stalling, I feel it is moving once again. I hope to get more Dalinar/Adolin/Shallan next week.

[the_archduke]

Mother Cultivation?!?  Shallan is one of the more religious characters, so this is unlikely to refer to something the Vorin church would be unhappy about.  It could be just a figure of speech like "Mother Earth".  A Christian might use that phrase colloquially without implying polytheism, so this does not mean she (or anyone) knows that Cultivation was on par with Honor.  Still though, a name drop like that was very cool and has some interesting implications.  

[Alderant]

Reactions to the conversation first:

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Is Ialai a ghostblood?

I'm wondering the same thing. Mraize did say that they took care of their own to Shallan, and the Ghostbloods have been at odds with at least one known member of the Kholin family (possibly two, if Gavilar was a member of the Sons of Honor like Amaram and the Ghostbloods were at odds with them back then). Sadeas did mention Ialai having hidden assassins in WoR, a propensity that the Ghostbloods have been shown to have.

6 hours ago, yulerule said:

Did anyone else catch that Stormlight can be suppressed? I'm not sure what that means, exactly other than being non-glowy but possibly suppressing Stormlight lets you keep it longer (it won't leak away quite so fast).

I think this was actually revealed in WoK, with both Szeth and Kaladin. Kaladin could hold his breath, and stormlight would leak out less quickly. I think Szeth mentioned the same thing during his rampages once.

6 hours ago, Tarion said:

I wonder whether suppressing the Stormlight is a Stormlight technique, or if it's an application of Lightweaving. I could see arguments either way (If it's Stormlight, I wouldn't be surprised to see it as a step towards one of the Plate theories - Controlling and condensing Stormlight seems like step 1 towards creating physical objects with it). 

I believe it's a stormlight thing.

6 hours ago, Mulk said:

Dalinar...just...damnation man.  He's a walking thunderstorm of contradiction, raw stubbornness and crackling willpower.  Really wondering how he changed from all of that to who he is now.

I don't actually think he's any different in that regard. He just carries himself with more self-control now, but he is still a walking thunderstorm of contradiction, stubbornness and willpower, haha. I mean, he did bind the Stormfather...that takes some stubbornness and willpower. Also he's going completely against the Vorin church.

6 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

"She sucked in the Light hungrily. She held her breath so it wouldn’t puff out when she breathed, and… suppressed the Light. She could do that, she’d found. To prevent herself from glowing or drawing attention. She’d done that as a child, hadn’t she?"

Between that line and Shallan asking Pattern last week if she had killed her brothers...I think there's more to Shallan's childhood than killing her father and mother.  She did something to her brothers, for good or ill intentions, and suppressed it like everything else.

Perhaps, though she could have just done that as a child to have prevented her mother from finding out, especially if her mother was antagonistic to the Radiants like most of Roshar. IMO, I think we should steer clear of Shallan having done something to her brothers without textual evidence. She's messed up enough as it is, and speculating only risks compounding her already complicated life. There's not really any textual evidence that Shallan used her abilities in a dangerous way prior to her mother's attempt to kill her.

5 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Or from Dune 

What the heck is Dune? Is that a Cosmere thing I've somehow missed? I know there's a book series called Dune...

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This is something I've been wondering about since the end of WoR. At the time of Jasnah's death, Shallan wouldn't have been able to guess, but she since learned that she could heal from such things. She probably didn't know Jasnah was an Elsecaller at the time either and so wouldn't have been able to guess her powers. So yeah, by now she should be able to connect the dots - I've been wondering if she secretly worries that she might have doomed Jasnah when she might have survived otherwise.

I don't know that Shallan has really had time to sit down and consider this. She's had a lot on her plate and if this thought had occurred yet I think we would have seen evidence of it in the text up 'til now...

5 hours ago, Ramza1890 said:

Damnation is Kaladin going to end up being Odium's champion?

That doesn't make any sense. If anything, I would think feeling the desire to protect the parshmen would make Kaladin move further from being Odium's champion...

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

True, and I understand the motive for the first murder, on Vedekar Perel. It is the second one, on the barmaid, which I can't understand. Adolin doesn't know about it, it has nothing to do with him or Sadeas directly, and is unnecessary detailed and complex for Ialais goal. Something else must be behind this.

Because to keep up those copy-cat murders, they have to take every murder they can.

Yes, Adolin doesn't know about it yet, but all they need to do is tell him, that there was another murder. I think, that "Ialai needing to be convinced" was just a stalling tactic. To get another murder going. To show, that they have the means and the will to keep going with copying them... unless Adolin confesses.

Ialai must be thinking, I can't prove that Adolin killed Torol, but I don't need any proof. Just pressure him into confessing.

I can see it going both ways. We don't know much about the barmaid--but we've seen that the Ghostbloods/Sons of Honor/Diagramists all have people in all walks of life, so it's quite possible that the barmaid was a kill of opportunity--eliminate a member of a rival organization and put pressure on the killer of Sadeas at the same time. It's a little bit of a stretch with just the information given in the text, but I could see both ways.

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

The more brutal the fighting is to start, the more of the Parshmen will willing throw themselves into Voidforms. What Kaladin is doing is the only way to try and prevent that. They need to be seen for the people they are, and have their Autonomy and dignity both built up and respected. 

Excellent point. This is ultimately what drove the Parshendi into stormform, so it's highly likely that Dalinar's efforts will have some kind of ramifications against this.

5 hours ago, DSC01 said:

We may be getting a clue into how Odium operates, too. With him being essentially the god of hatred, we expect a whole lot of evil, but I think that we're going to see Odium take a totally different course than we expected. It looks like he's going to use justified hatred to work his ends. The parshmen are absolutely justified in their hatred. When other nations bargain with the Voidbringers, seeing it as being a choice between them and the Alethi, it may be their absolutely justified hatred for the evil in Alethi culture that sways them to side with the "bad guys." This is very interesting.

"I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. << Kaladin's second ideal.

I'll further that line of thought later on.

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think you're kind of missing the point of the greater conflict.  Odium is hatred.  The world has taught itself to view the conflict as one between humans and parshmen, when really that's just serving to strengthen Odium's position.  A never-ending battle and generations of ingrained hatred is exactly what Odium would want.  War, hatred, atrocities, and slavery just breed more of the same.  When Honor's vision was telling Dalinar to unite "them", he likely wasn't just referring to humanity, but all sentient life on Roshar, Parshendi included.

The only way to defeat Odium is to break the cycle of hate between humans and Parshendi.  And right now Kaladin may be the only person to grasp that his oaths to protect don't stop with the human race.  In this sense you're right, Kaladin may indeed become the betrayer of his side on the surface-level conflict, but doing so is the opposite of becoming Odium's champion.  He will be truly embodying the principles of honor and opposing the machinations of Odium, perhaps for the first time since the Recreance.

Actually, now I'm starting to become convinced that this is the true cause of the Recreance.  Ishi and the Heralds thought they saw a way to break the cycle of Desolations, and used the power of the Bondsmiths (perhaps not telling them the full details of what they were doing) to brutalize the souls of Parshendi everywhere.  Witnessing the results of their actions: the enslavement and lobotomizing of nearly the entire Parshendi race, was too morally repulsive to support and the old Radiants abandoned their orders.  The Radiants were probably remembered as traitors by humanity for just this reason, they didn't go along with the mass-enslavement of the Parshendi.

Excellent analysis. I think you may be onto something. We've already had it confirmed that Odium is capable of playing the long game, and perhaps Honor didn't realize this (he can't see as far as Odium) until the very end, which is why he left his visions with the Stormfather to be passed on.

My thoughts:

Kaladin: I've seen this discussed earlier in the thread, but the thought I had was that Kaladin's third ideal will play into the parshman-not-being-enemies thing. His ideals are about protection and doing what's right. These parshmen aren't evil--they're trying to survive and escape a hellish life with the remnants of their families intact. Kaladin can't in good conscience just kill them outright, because he empathizes with them. I truly believe that, just based on the textual evidence here, he could end up as a bridge between Parshendi and humans, demanding the other Radiants and human nations not go to war just because they are a different race. We've already seen Kal grow to be not just a competent leader, but one that will face down any force necessary to protect those he loves.

Dalinar: Not really much of note here. The knife scene was funny, and was a good example of just how callous to death Dalinar is.

Shallan: Ookay, I'm officially adding alcoholism to her list of problems. I now have to worry not just about her running from her problems under the guise of one of her personas, but also that she will get stupidly drunk and do something stupid. Perhaps Adolin's revelation won't be the end, perhaps it'll just be Shallan getting drunk and doing something she'll regret. <sigh>. And snark aside, I don't see the addition of alcohol (especially in the quantities she's consuming it) being good for helping her come to grips with herself, but maybe that's just me...

Mraize/Ialai: I don't actually see Mraize being a source of conflict for Shallan here. He did say something to the effect of "Let Shallan the Radiant be the dutiful light-eyes, but let Veil come to us as one of the Ghostbloods". We haven't seen Shallan's decision yet, but until she decides to be explicitly against the Ghostbloods, she's likely in the clear. Mraize did say that she was already considered a member. I still maintain that at this point in time, Ialai is the greatest suspect as the source of the copycat murders. I just think that the first one was psychological warfare, meant to shake the culprit. Additional murders, with the same MO (a knife through the eye), just point to serial murderer. Imagine the ramifications if, when it is revealed that Sadeas's death was at the hands of Adolin, all the other murders were pinned on him as well. As the murder count rises, so too will the unease among the Alethi, and if it gets too high the people may not want to wait to determine the truth of the accusations. If you doubt me that that's possible, consider mob behavior and the Salem Witch trials.

Adolin/Shallan: Good progression here. I'm glad she is becoming more comfortable with him, though I still worry that the closer they get the worse his revelation will hurt...

[StormingTexan]

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

I love how Adolin and Shallan are getting more comfortable with each other, allowing to see each other in less than dignified situations (well this is for Shallan so far, we have yet to see Adolin with one displaced hair).

Didn't Adolin admit he has to poop in his Shardplate in WoR?