[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[Argent]

Chapter 19: The Subtle Art of Diplomacy

Ah, yes. Nice to get a chapter in which young Dalinar acts with subtlety and delicacy.  I am sure he'll behave.

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The place was far too warm, and sweat prickled on his arms and forehead. Too many candles maybe.

A normal human reaction the author draws our attention to, only to divert it later? Suspicious. I'm onto you, Dalinar's sweat!

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“Surely there are cities with fortifications,” Toh said. “Your famed Kholinar has majestic walls, does it not?”

We were debating whether Kholinar had walls recently. Sure does.

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The Westerner had a thick accent and spoke in a clipped, annoying way. Sounded silly.

I wonder what the closest Earth analog would be.

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You’re his descendant, correct?”

“We all are,” Gavilar said. “House Kholin, House Sadeas… all ten princedoms. Their founders were his sons, you know.

Busy guy.

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Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs.

I've been assuming this is one of the infamous Stormstriders. The original draft of this chapter had just as little detail, I had hoped that Brandon would expand just a little bit...

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“Brightlord,” he said, “I will see to your desires of course, though you might wish to know that the sign is off. If you’ll allow me to demonstrate—”

Dalinar made a rude gesture. “Is this better?”

Classic.

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Taken from his homeland of Rira and brought east, as far as Toh could get from his kinsmen—who were reportedly outraged to find such a precious heirloom stolen.

Ah, so that's why the trirach was accusing Dalinar of theft. 

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“Attack it,” Ialai said, making a stabbing motion. “Pretend it’s some thick-necked man who has been insulting your biceps.”

“If someone insulted my biceps, I wouldn’t attack him,” Dalinar said. “I’d refer him to a physician, because obviously something is wrong with his eyes.”

"You insultin' mah biceps, bro? That it, bro? Well, check your eyes, bro, 'cause these babies lift 95s every day!"

Chapter 20: Cords to Bind

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“I hate,” Sah continued, “feeling like a child.” He started rewrapping the axehead, tighter this time. “I hate being taught things that I should already know. Most of all, I hate needing your help. We ran. We escaped. Now what? You leap in, start telling us what to do? We’re back to following Alethi orders again.”

Hey, look who is being protecting and leading!

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“I hate,” Sah continued, “feeling like a child.” He started rewrapping the axehead, tighter this time. “I hate being taught things that I should already know. Most of all, I hate needing your help. We ran. We escaped. Now what? You leap in, start telling us what to do? We’re back to following Alethi orders again.”

Wait, didn't Syl refer to the spren as "him"?

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They were surprised that Kaladin couldn’t see the spren. They’d also mentioned to him the sounds they heard, distant rhythms, almost music.

Ah, so they can now hear the Rhythms, but probably couldn't before. You know, when they were broken.

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the only way I can fight the Voidbringers is to pretend there’s a difference between the ones I have to protect and the ones I have to kill.”

That's a rough position to be in, Kaladin... I wonder how people from our own history dealt with the same problem - becoming too aware that the enemy is just like you. 

Chapter 21: Set Up to Fall

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Wait… Stormfather. She’d spent the night out as Veil, then slept to the afternoon. She groaned, tossing off sweaty blankets, and lay there in just her shift, head pounding. There was an empty jug of Horneater white in the corner.

Ah, yes, we are back to Shallan's descent into bad decisions. Alcoholism looks like the chef's special tonight.

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Bless him. And Palona, who had probably sent it with him.

I am really enjoying how much Palona is mothering Shallan. Light knows, she needs it...

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“Get menstrual cramps?” Shallan said. “Yeah. Mother Cultivation can be hateful. I’m an all-powerful, Shardblade-wielding pseudo-immortal, but nature still sends a friendly reminder every now and then to tell me I should be getting around to having children.”

“No mating,” Pattern buzzed softly on the wall.

YESSS! The meme, it only grows more powerful! Feed it, feed it more!

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Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”

Hah!

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Those should all have gone dun by now, she thought. Even the ones renewed most recently. How did they have any Stormlight at all?

Oh, that's a good point. Obviously. Is it Urithiru? Is it just the altitude? Is it the fact that Urithiru was built "in the place nearest to Honor" and so, for some reason, Stormlight depletes slower here?

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“Well,” he said, “I have selfish reasons. I’m kind of hoping for some moral support.”

“Don’t hit the message too hard. If you want someone to believe what you’re telling them, come to your point gradually, so they’re with you the entire time.”

What?

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Exploration on the upper levels had been completely halted, as they no longer had Stormlight to spare in working the lifts.

This is interesting. So much of Urithiru runs on Stormlight, I have to wonder - how did they fuel it, even back pre-Recreance? It seems like an awful lot of work to move large quantities of gems around. I feel like there might be a more efficient way to power up and recharge the entire city during a highstorm.

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Shallan had a group of soldiers made up of deserters and despicable murderers. She didn’t mind that part, being a despicable murderer herself.

Uhhh. Glad you are learning to live with this, Shallan... Real glad.

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“By being part of what you’re doing,” Adolin said. “Storms, I forget how new you are to all this. What have you been doing with these men?”

It's good that this relationship is not as one-sided as it could've been. With so many Radiants around, it's easy to see Adolin as less capable, but he does bring a lot to the table.

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Standing beside her was Mraize, one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods.

Oh, this is going to get messy...

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Pattern said:

Why do the ghostbloods what they do? I guess we will know in some weeks. And I really think Mraize could be able to do such stuff. The ghostbloods do have stuff from other shardworlds, they might have supernatural means to achieve this. But wholly human machinations.

Well, you are right about the fact that we don't know the Ghostbloods motive at all... and if anyone could do that kind of stuff, it would most likely be Mraize. I still see an Unmade/another wierd monster as more likely though.

[Scriptorian]

Next time on the Stormlight Archive!

Adolin thinks "Don't let them see that I killed Sadeas."

Shallan thinks "Don't let them see that I recognize Mraize."

Mraize thinks "Dont let them see that I'm just here to freak out Shallan for the lulz."

Ialai thinks "WHY IS EVERYONE ELSE MAKING POKERFACES?!"

 

[kari-no-sugata]

50 minutes ago, Aon Ene said:

Shallan continues to be slightly scary and infuriatingly entertaining. Just let me decide whether I like you or not!

Sanity is boring. Just like her already

 

33 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Did anyone else catch that Stormlight can be suppressed? I'm not sure what that means, exactly other than being non-glowy but possibly suppressing Stormlight lets you keep it longer (it won't leak away quite so fast).

Shallan is shocked by what she did as Veil, yet also remembering bits of what she did as a child. The fact that she learned to hide Stormlight way back then is not a good indicator, at all. This raises even more questions - before that fateful day, did she know she had to hide her abilities from her mother? 

Just for reference: early in WoR she had a very vague memory of using Stormlight during her childhood as well. Back when Jasnah was being stabbed (sob):

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It sparked something deep within her memory, something prickled with bards she dared no touch. She needed Stormlight to fuel the Surgebinding.

So these memories seem to be coming through more clearly. Hopefully we'll get some insight into her childhood in this book.

That she knew how to suppress it in the past isn't by itself that scary, I'd say. If a child has a special secret they would likely want to keep it from others, whether it's other children or adults.

 

4 minutes ago, ProfessorMLyon said:

With this thought, I wonder when Shallan will start to think that Jasnah isn't as dead as she might believe.

This is something I've been wondering about since the end of WoR. At the time of Jasnah's death, Shallan wouldn't have been able to guess, but she since learned that she could heal from such things. She probably didn't know Jasnah was an Elsecaller at the time either and so wouldn't have been able to guess her powers. So yeah, by now she should be able to connect the dots - I've been wondering if she secretly worries that she might have doomed Jasnah when she might have survived otherwise.

[Toaster Retribution]

5 minutes ago, Scriptorian said:

Next time on the Stormlight Archive!

Adolin thinks "Don't let them see that I killed Sadeas."

Shallan thinks "Don't let them see that I recognize Mraize."

Mraize thinks "Dont let them see that I'm just here to freak out Shallan for the lulz."

Ialai thinks "WHY IS EVERYONE ELSE MAKING POKERFACES?!"

 

Why am I out of upvotes?

[Aleksiel]

7 minutes ago, Argent said:

What?

Are you, too, in need of an explanation for the moral quip Shallan made? Because I sure am 

[Agent34]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This is something I've been wondering about since the end of WoR. At the time of Jasnah's death, Shallan wouldn't have been able to guess, but she since learned that she could heal from such things. She probably didn't know Jasnah was an Elsecaller at the time either and so wouldn't have been able to guess her powers. So yeah, by now she should be able to connect the dots - I've been wondering if she secretly worries that she might have doomed Jasnah when she might have survived otherwise.

She knew Jasnah could soulcast without a fabrial and saw her spren. It's possible Shallan didn't know her Order but she knew Jasnah was a surgebinder.

[WhiteLeeopard]

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“Well,” Dalinar said, wagging his bent knife. “We looked at this place here, this kingdom, and we realized, ‘Hey, all these people have stuff .’ And we figured… hey, maybe weshould have that stuff. So we took it.”

Nice admission that they were a bunch of ruffians. 

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“That yellow spren isn’t any better,” Sah muttered. “Hurry up. Keep moving. She tells us we’re free, then with the very next breath berates us for not obeying quickly enough.”

Hmm, I wish this was a sign some parsh-people will go their own way. But its doubtful, they are runaway slaves with no-one to turn to. A bossy spren will seem better than a return to slavery.

Something tells me Kaladin's radiant status will be revealed soon to these parsh-people. Maybe next chapter

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“No mating,” Pattern buzzed softly on the wall.

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Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”

Tsk, nothing says I care about you like letting a lady steal your light!

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“Ash’s eyes, no. I’d rather figure it out. A relationship needs some measure of mystery.”

I'm moving more and more firmly into position believing Shallan will love Adolin more for his lie when he discovers it.

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Standing beside her was Mraize, one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods.

Interesting ending. With how little we know of the Ghostbloods there are...too many options. He is there to manouver one of his people into highprince position. He is there to make trouble for Kholins and Shallan. He is there to topple Ialai for his own reasons. He is there to use Sadeas princedom to gain whatever he wanted from Urithiru. He is there to put pressure on Shallan. Also interesting on the chapter name.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Why would they copy-cat murder a random guy though? And can they really do it in that precise manner? Mraize is good, but not that good.

Because it is enough. I mean, Ialai already must suspect Adolin. And she knows him.

"Oh, we'll keep this going, Adolin. Unless you confess." I can already imagine it. Adolin is not the kind of guy, who let's innocents die for him.

[zebobes]

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Are you, too, in need of an explanation for the moral quip Shallan made? Because I sure am 

I'm guessing Brandon wanted to show that she was still waking up from a hangover, so it's such a bad pun it doesn't make sense. 

I'm guessing Shallan took the phrase "Moral support" and broke it into two different words. The moral of the story can be the message of the story, and so Shallan started explaining how to do a better job with the moral of the story....

It doesn't really make sense, and it definitely isn't funny...

Edited October 10, 2017 by zebobes

[kari-no-sugata]

1 minute ago, Agent34 said:

She knew Jasnah could soulcast without a fabrial and saw her spren. It's possible Shallan didn't know her Order but she knew Jasnah was a surgebinder.

Shallan knew for certain that Jasnah was a Radiant in the making as Jasnah confirmed it and Shallan even saw Jasnah's spren. What we've not seen is confirmation that she knew both what Jasnah's Order was and what that Order could do at the time of Jasnah's "death" - Shallan probably needed the in-world book Words of Radiance for that, I would think, since Jasnah hadn't spoken much about herself except that they were in different Orders (but shared a Surge).

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Because it is enough. I mean, Ialai already must suspect Adolin. And she knows him.

"Oh, we'll keep this going, Adolin. Unless you confess." I can already imagine it. Adolin is not the kind of guy, who let's innocents die for him.

True, and I understand the motive for the first murder, on Vedekar Perel. It is the second one, on the barmaid, which I can't understand. Adolin doesn't know about it, it has nothing to do with him or Sadeas directly, and is unnecessary detailed and complex for Ialais goal. Something else must be behind this.

[Ramza1890]

Damnation is Kaladin going to end up being Odium's champion?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ramza1890

[vividox]

That Kaladin chapter was entirely too short.

Lots and lots and lots of banter this go around.

That cliffhanger at the end was quite the cliffhanger. 

[Govir]

21 minutes ago, Argent said:

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“Well,” he said, “I have selfish reasons. I’m kind of hoping for some moral support.”

“Don’t hit the message too hard. If you want someone to believe what you’re telling them, come to your point gradually, so they’re with you the entire time.”

What?

 

13 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Are you, too, in need of an explanation for the moral quip Shallan made? Because I sure am 

 

9 minutes ago, zebobes said:

I'm guessing Shallan took the phrase "Moral support" and broke it into two different words. The moral of the story can be the message of the story, and so Shallan started explaining how to do a better job with the moral of the story....

It doesn't really make sense, and it definitely isn't funny...

I think that makes perfect sense, although it did take me a minute to come to the same conclusion. It was still bad, and not really funny, but it made sense.

 

[kiapet]

6 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

damnation it is Kaladin going to end up being Odium's champion?

I'm curious; what gave you that idea? I think the plotline of Kaladin failing to uphold the standards of his order and plotting against the heroic side has been done and resolved in WoR. I'm guessing he's going to be our side's champion.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

damnation it is Kaladin going to end up being Odium's champion?

Do you somehow still think the freed Parshmen are Evil? Nothing Kaladin is thinking is wrong. 

Those Parshmen are people, not monsters. He's right. 

[BlackYeti]

26 minutes ago, Argent said:

YESSS! The meme, it only grows more powerful! Feed it, feed it more!

Your wish is my command! 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

True, and I understand the motive for the first murder, on Vedekar Perel. It is the second one, on the barmaid, which I can't understand. Adolin doesn't know about it, it has nothing to do with him or Sadeas directly, and is unnecessary detailed and complex for Ialais goal. Something else must be behind this.

Because to keep up those copy-cat murders, they have to take every murder they can.

Yes, Adolin doesn't know about it yet, but all they need to do is tell him, that there was another murder. I think, that "Ialai needing to be convinced" was just a stalling tactic. To get another murder going. To show, that they have the means and the will to keep going with copying them... unless Adolin confesses.

Ialai must be thinking, I can't prove that Adolin killed Torol, but I don't need any proof. Just pressure him into confessing.

Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC

[kiapet]

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"That’s why I’m angry! Thank you for what you’re showing us, but don’t expect me to be happy that I need you for it. This just reinforces the belief within you, maybe even within myself, that your people should be the ones who decide upon our freedom in the first place."

Kaladin's chapters remain the most interesting. We had a discussion regarding Kaladin as the White Savior archetype with the Parshmen a couple of weeks ago, only for their leader to bring up the same issue! I can't think of any way to resolve this well, though the thought of these people's lives being further controlled and destroyed by becoming Voidbringers is horrific.

[Ramza1890]

Just now, kiapet said:

I'm curious; what gave you that idea? I think the plotline of Kaladin failing to uphold the standards of his order and plotting against the heroic side has been done and resolved in WoR. I'm guessing he's going to be our side's champion.

I think he identifies far better with the Parshmen than he does with the Alethi. He loathes the idea of having to one day encounter Parshmen like this on the battlefield. I think the more time he travels with him the more it could chip away at his conviction that humans are the good guys in this conflict. I don't know but perhaps Syl leaves him once and for all after he has these kinds of thoughts and he turns to Odium to fill the void that she leaves.

\Pure speculation on my part.

[The Invested Beard]

45 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Im losing faith in the Jasnah theory. She's too much to the point to have written this. These epigraphs are so USELESS.Unless hes telling us Dune is actually Cosmere canon...

I will not fear. Fear is the spren killer.

 

So I'm really interested in how the giant creature/spren moving through the highstorm was just kind of brushed off as an aside in that flashback. What the heck is going on there?

Kaladin's chapter was way too short but did give us some good insight into how it appears Odium is going to be manipulating both sides to further his agenda and sow hatred. Figure out a way to come through on this Kaladin my man. Time to be a mediator.

Oh Mraize. Hi, didn't see you there. This is going to be baaaad.

[What's a Seawolf?]

Random thought:

Seeing Dalinar's flashback chapters and the stark contrast between young and old Dalinar, could Adolin be on the opposite path?  Incredibly honorable and good while young, but because of future events, eventually becomes more and more like the Blackthorn of old.

Would be a nice juxtaposition between the two, and Adolin does seem concerned his killing of Sadaes makes him very unlike his father.  It doesn't even have to be a big event that causes him to snap (like being banished,) just a slow build up of stress, worry and a general feeling that being honorable/like his father is just not going to be enough to keep everyone he cares about alive.

(As a random example, let's say his relationship with Shallan continues evolving and keeps getting better.  But Ialai is clearly right there not only trying to break/expose Adolin (and in his mind ruin his chances with Shallan) but Ialai is also threatening Shallan's safety or secrets.  Maybe Adolin decides, either by thinking it through or having a snap moment like Sadeas, that Ialai needs to go.  And makes it happen.) 

[Toaster Retribution]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Because to keep up those copy-cat murders, they have to take every murder they can.

Yes, Adolin doesn't know about it yet, but all they need to do is tell him, that there was another murder. I think, that "Ialai needing to be convinced" was just a stalling tactic. To get another murder going. To show, that they have the means and the will to keep going with copying them... unless Adolin confesses.

Ialai must be thinking, I can't prove that Adolin killed Torol, but I don't need any proof. Just pressure him into confessing.

In that case, keeping on killing people in the same way Sadeas died would have been preferable.

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, The Invested Beard said:

So I'm really interested in how the giant creature/spren moving through the highstorm was just kind of brushed off as an aside in that flashback. What the heck is going on there?

Kaladin saw something similar during the highstorm in the chasms and Shallan noticed something lived inside the stormwall in the balcony during her date with Adolin. I hope we'll learn more soon.