[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[Gloom Spren]

The transition between Dalinar's flashback and the next chapter was so perfect. I felt so betrayed by what I believed was Dalinar murdering a child followed by the epigraph:  

Quote

I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand.

Really struck me!

After reading this thread though, I do have some doubts about him murdering the kid, but I don't know! Dalinar was so heartless, I hope this was the start of what started changing him for the better.

Also irritated with the Azish not cooperating with the Alethi, but after the small amount we've seen about Dalinar's past, I guess it makes sense. I think if Gawx had received the same explanation as the Thaylen Queen, they would have been a bit more swayed. But that would be too easy.

 

Edit: Still struggling to figure out what Dalinar meant, I'm really bothered by it.

 

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“You speak of the people,” Tanalan said hoarsely, gauntleted hand feeling at his chest where the cuirass had been bent significantly by Dalinar’s rush. He seemed to be having trouble breathing. “As if this were about them. As if it were for their good that you loot, you pillage, you murder. You’re an uncivilized brute.”

“You can’t civilize war,” Dalinar said. “There’s no painting it up and making it pretty.”

“You don’t have to pull sorrow behind you like a sledge on the stones, scraping and crushing those you pass. You’re a monster.”

...

“You can’t have my daddy,” the boy said, words distorted by his sorrow. Painspren crawled around the floor. “You can’t. You… you…” His voice fell to a whisper. “Daddy said… we fight monsters. And with faith, we will win.…”

...

Growing up, Dalinar had simply assumed that his brother would always be right in whatever he said or did. Aging hadn’t much changed his opinion of the man.

...

Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?

...

Storms. A kingdom. For the first time in his life, Dalinar found that idea horrifying.

I've decided he did kill the boy. He realized that his brother is wrong. Uniting a Kingdom by becoming monsters is wrong, and he can't let Gavilar find out he feels that way.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Gloom Spren

[Daishi5]

Another theory I had on the discord about the Parshmen is that they don't have enough spren available to transform into forms of power, it took weeks for Eshonai to get ready for the major transformation in WoR.  I think we are seeing Parshmen transform based on whats mostly available in the region.  Alethkar is famously warlike, and we hear about what Kaladin thinks are warform Parshendi.  Azir is famous for having a giant bureaucracy and we see parshendi that can negotiate, Thaylen has Parshendi capable of stealing their boats and sailing away.  

It isn't a theory that has any grave implications except that the transformed Parshmen are probably not under Odium's control yet, and they don't have a huge plan for destroying Humanity.  

 

[Khyrindor]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I hate it  I never wanted Adolin to become the next Highprince. I have always found it boring, predictable and to similar to Dalinar's story arc to really be interesting. In the context of Oathbringer, I find even more uninteresting... Adolin being the Highprince means he will never face the consequences for having murdered Sadeas. This is done. It is over. He is above all laws now, he can't be trialed, exiled nor executed. He can't be disowned. Nothing of the wonderful amazing interesting consequences most readers have thought of will never happen, so yeah, I hate it. What else will Brandon write? I have no idea, but since I have been rooting for an Adolin/Dalinar conflict, I am a bit disappointed in seeing it isn't going down this way. Dalinar is barely acknowledging Adolin is existing.

Maybe not... He is very emotional, he cares more about his people than politics. It seems likely he would try to do best for the people, but may harm the princedom on the politic side or he may lose his head trying to be everywhere all at once. 

I am not sure he has the right temperament to be a Highprince. He knows the work, but I find he may be too focus on smaller things, not enough on bigger ones.

I agree for the most part, but I feel like it's a bit preemptive to assume that that's where this is going. I have faith in Sanderson that he will keep things interesting despite this new dynamic. We haven't even seen the officiality of Elhokar's decision, nor Adolin's personal reaction. I still think anything could happen. Also, Brandon has spoken about Adolin in this book saying his character surprised him and he had to write more of him than he had originally intended for the plot (I believe he likened it to Spook's arc in HoA. Edit: not that it will feel like Spook's arc, just that it surprised him like Spook's arc). Because of that, I feel like we will be satisfied in the end with his arc, and that we shouldn't give up hope just because we see it going down ways that may not seem interesting yet.

It's interesting that we as fans can be so good at guessing things like Dalinar's Highkingship, and Kaladin's parental goings-on, but no one was able to predict the second murder, the wedding so early, and so on. 

Brandon knows what he's doing, and he wouldn't be pulling all these threads what with the murders and Adolin's reactions to them. Things are still going to happen, and with the world going into turmoil, I don't think things like "Highprince" will mean very much for long.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Rider of Storms

[Aleksiel]

I've been thinking why it is and will be difficult for Dalinar to get other kingdoms to work with them. I think Dalinar is missing something rather important - he thought how he knows little of other kingdoms and how to talk to them, but is what we saw in this chapter actually adequate attempt? 

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two senior wards sat beside her, ready to provide research or translation if needed...

...thank His Imperial Majesty for meeting with us, and his translators for their efforts...

...‘We misspoke when we mentioned negotiations,’” Kalami read. “ ‘It was a mistake of translation.

So Dalinar had translators, but still relied on alethi language. I find this a poor choice on his part.
 

From his conversation with Fen:

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“She’s worried about an army of troops suddenly materializing in the center of her city.”

 

Quote

I intend to convene a grand conference of kings to fight this threat.”

“ ‘Led by you,’ ” Fen wrote in reply. “ ‘Of course.’ 

 

Quote

“And,” he said quickly for Kalami to add, “we would be happy to send our Radiants to train those you discover, then introduce them to the system and fraternity of Urithiru, to which each of them has a right by nature of their oaths.”

I don't think troops are the only thing the queen was thinking of. Alethkar already has quite the cultural influence and obviously even when attempting to unite others alethi elite doesn't have the mind to use the language of the other side, which is very disrespectful.

Quote

Give up too much, and you might find a ‘headquarters’ for the Knights Radiant in every major city across Roshar. Rather than working together, you’ll have them competing to recruit.”

And why wouldn't they? Why would non-alethi join this Urithiru that is basically an alethi province? The city of the Radiants was intended to be above kingdoms, yet it currently isn't. Even if I'm more lenient in my views, I still see no reason for a non-Vorin surgebinder to be particularly eager to join the current Urithiru that is dominated by vorin customs.

Dalinar needs to realize KR belong to all cultures and none at the same time. He won't successfully unite Roshar if people feel alethi are trying to take advantage of the situation and dominate them all.

[WhiteLeeopard]

15 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Dalinar needs to realize KR belong to all cultures and none at the same time. He won't successfully unite Roshar if people feel alethi are trying to take advantage of the situation and dominate them all.

This. Dalinar will need to leave behind Alethi lands (seems he is already starting) and titles. But he will also have to leave behind the customs to an extent, and a good chunk of vorinism too. I was always bothered by how Urithiru was an alethi province, but I didn't connect it to how other kingdoms may refuse to work with them so long as that is the case. Urithiru should be a place for KR to be themselves, to not have to hide or fake as they do with the rest of the world. The world is welcome to come, but they should come as guests, and that should be made abundantly clear. 

On KR chapterhouse of every kingdom appearing. I suspect it won't happen large scale for two reasons. The lesser one is KR are broken, and I suspect at least half of them won't be a good fit with their cultures or countries (imagine an azish that hates paperwork, a thaylen that hates strangers, etc). The main reason is the spren. Shallan was pushed towards Jasnah, and eventually to Dalinar. Syl pressed Kaladin to go to Dalinar. The spren are trying to save humanity, and will likely push their radiants to come together. This reasoning is why I half think T's radiant is legit and not a diagramist. But I wouldn't swear to it, never can be sure with that group . But just because the KR won't scatter doesn't mean Dalinar doesn't need to try much, much harder.

Finally, I really believe Dalinar is still misunderstanding the "unite them". First he thought it was unite the highprinces, nope. Now unite roshar, sigh, he never learns does he. Roshar unity is likely a step closer to it, but still I suspect is not entirely what Honor meant. I'm split whether unity means unite the KR and let them pull in their countries (when things get bad they will clutch at survival, which is synonimous with following the KR to Urithiru) or unite the parshendi and humans.

Edited September 20, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[hypatia]

I think we really, really need the other two Bondsmithes and not only because I'm nearly dying to know the ominous third one.

At the moment Dalinar seems to be the last human on Roshar to unite the country, first because of his past, but also because it looks like he wants to be the only one in charge.

He isn't something like a 'Highking', he is only a third of the Bondsmithes.

Yes, Urithiru shouldn't be a place for..

...genderroles

...Brightlord and co.

...Nahn and Dahn

I really want him to go back in the visions, espacially 'Starfalls' and realize how it used to be.

The Stormfather isn't such a help, he seems unwilling to answer crucial questions - Dalinar needs to know why the Radiants grew corrupted if he doesn't want to make the same mistakes.

On the other hand he have to make sure, that no one will be able to use the Radiants for their wars.

He can't have an Emuli  and a Tukari Knight to side with one of these countries.

There's so much to do and preferably all at the same time - mostly yesterday - that I'm beginning to despair.

Edited September 20, 2017 by hypatia

[Fulminato]

7 hours ago, snipexe said:

I agree, but on that note, why do horses even exist on roshar. The way everything else has evolved they should have a shell, or something like that. How would they even walk around with out being shod? This is something renarin mentions, and even if they were shin, they would have had to evolved in an extremely isolated environment

i think ryshadium and common horse had a different origin, the second are more 'modern discovery'

“Horseback riding isn’t mentioned in Arts and Majesty,” she replied. “Horses weren’t terribly well known back then. Radiants had Ryshadium, but even kings had little access to ordinary horses.” She wore her safehand in a sleeve, unlike most of the darkeyed groom women, who wore gloves." (WoR Chapter 25)

[Harbour]

Finally read the new chapters. That way of reading is actually great. Dammit id actually pay weekly for Oathbringer's 3 chapters to be released every week untill the very end of the book. That would make... almost a year for the book to be read fully. That would make the waiting for SA4 less painful.

As for the chapters.

-Kaladin knows how to be a rock-star! He really looks and acts like the one. Its pretty awesome after all these brooding and gloomy moments in WoK and WoR. I love this Kaladin.

-Interesting note about 1 to 2 spheres exchange. I wonder will Sanderson give a new spin to that moment or not. What if Kaladin will come back to find out city-lords used the spheres he gave them for their own sake telling people Kaladin did nothing to help them, and people will hate him for that. That would make an interesting conflict and give the new layer on lighteyes-dakreyes theme.

-The scene with that ardent, Syl and sex-talk was amazing. I actually thought Kaladin would make a Shallan-related comment when he saw the ugly picture ardent drew for him.

And i wonder was this play of words intentional on Sanderson part. Syl said Kaladin liked Shallan, and Kaladin thought her words struck uncomfortably close to the truth. Not "struck as the truth", but "close to the truth". If it was an intentional word play, then Kaladin either "less than like Shallan", or "more than like Shallan". I think Sanderson implied that Kaladin more than like "that Lightweaver" given previous excerpts from WoR.

-Dalinar was a monster. Actually, i read his chapter being afraid of hating him by the end of him. I dont want to start hating him. But that chapter was tough to read. I really wonder what happened that changed Dalinar so much. Because... he was a bastard and i was totally on Tanalan's side during their combat. And that scene with the boy and his mother, ugh. I thought Dalinar was gonna finish unconscious Tanalan in front of his son and wife's eyes but he did something even worse.

And i dont think he left the boy alive. The part with "remembering the sound of a brave boy crying" heavily implied he killed him. Notice how Sanderson didnt let us know what Dalinar did with that beautiful woman. Did he kill her too? Raped and killed? Raped and took as his wife later? Just took as his wife? And if that woman is Shshshshs, then i wonder was and if she was then HOW was she happy to live with Dalinar, the murderer of her previous husband? Were Adolin and Renarin the sons of great love or the sons of unhappy marriage?

-Sadees is the Sunmaker. And Sadeas wanted his sword. Its funny that Sanderson named the Sunmaker and a bastard almost similarly. Sadees and Sadeas. That was intentional and what was the meaning of that?

-Its shocking, but Kaladin and Bridge Four were bought in exchange of the sword that Dalinar got killing the 6 years old boy. Im pretty sure Kaladin wouldnt be happy to know this detail.

-So its confirmed that horses are not belong to Roshar. It was obsious. Every creature that has hairs dont belong to Roshar. Its the world of shells, clutches, corals and seaweed-like plants. I wouldnt be surprised if evolution on Roshar was influenced by the ocean and storms. Maybe for millions years the whole continent lay underwater. 

-I dont think Adolin has no development. I noticed that he tries to spent more time far from Shallan, Dalinar and Navani. He either work with other people, or spent his time feeding the horses. These are the subtle hints. Adolin is obviously afraid of staying close to those he keeps his secret from. I totally understand his behavious. Also while he has less screen time, he shockingly less time spent with Shallan in comparison to WoR. Its also understandable. He thinks the more time he spend with dear people keeping his secret away from them, the more he lies to them.

-Sheeeeeeeet, that last line from Dalinar make me shivering. Thats one deadly line and this line was like a foreshadowing for Dalinar's death in the end of the book. Dont trust Taravangian, do you hear me, Dalinar?! Dont trust him!

 

[Stark]

Squires.

 

I know some people are hoping for Elhokar to become a Windrunner squire in a buddy drama with Kaladin.  Props to @Elena for first mentioning the buddy drama idea!  But I don't think it will happen.  I don't think it will happen any more than Adolin becoming a squire for the Truthwatchers, Lightweavers or Windrunners.  I don't think that will happen for the simple reason that both Elhokar and Adolin are still bound to dead blades.  And, if the theory turns to be true, dead plates.

 

I think that the spren find this so repellant, as evidenced by Syl's comments, thatthey won't be able to attract spren of their own, or become squires and enjoy proximity benefits.

 

Additional support for dead bonds blocking live ones - Dalinar had given up Oathbringer already, and had barely bonded the blade thought to be Taln's when he bonded the Stormfather - and was told to give it up, that he would bear no blades.  Renarin was already bonding Glys when given a blade, so it did not prevent him bonding Glys, that was already there, but it did interfere.  Elhokar has seen spren in the mirrors, but not been approached for a bond, and he practically lives in his armor, and has never unbound his blade.

 

So I really don't see Adolin or Elhokar joining the ranks of the squires.

[yulerule]

What I'm curious about is that we know Shardblades are dead spren, live ones don't like them. No live spren have expressed opinions about Plate, though. I believe Dalinar still has his plate. Also, does Plate even bond? Or do people own it like regular stuff. It doesn't vanish into mist either.

[QuantumHarmonix]

9 minutes ago, yulerule said:

What I'm curious about is that we know Shardblades are dead spren, live ones don't like them. No live spren have expressed opinions about Plate, though. I believe Dalinar still has his plate. Also, does Plate even bond? Or do people own it like regular stuff. It doesn't vanish into mist either.

You have to have the majority of the plate to reform it. The books state that if someone takes a broken part they can try to reform the whole kit, but they won't be successful if you have more pieces and are reforming just the missing bit.

[Ramza1890]

Forgive my ignorance but do we know the history of Adolin's shardblade? If he revives the spren inside it must be fairly important right?

[WhiteLeeopard]

24 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

Forgive my ignorance but do we know the history of Adolin's shardblade? If he revives the spren inside it must be fairly important right?

Its an Edgedancer spren, thats all that is known. 

[Stark]

45 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

You have to have the majority of the plate to reform it. The books state that if someone takes a broken part they can try to reform the whole kit, but they won't be successful if you have more pieces and are reforming just the missing bit.

I remember it differently.  Dalinar left a gauntlet on the tower.  There was a concern that the listeners could regrow the whole plate from that one gauntlet if they had enough Stormlight.  He was not worried, as it would take him less stormlight to regrow his missing pieces, including the gauntlet than it would take the listeners to regrow the rest of the plate...  If successful the abandoned gauntlet would disintegrate to dust.  So it is more a race of who has more stormlight to spare and enough dedication to keep infusing the pieces.

 

If, say, Dalinar had lost the guantlet at the end of a normal weeping, when no one really has Stormlight left, and the listeners had enough spare, or got refueled by a highstorm first, they would have the advantage, and could regrow/steal the plate and put it into contest.  But, that was not the case, and Dalinar had enough stormlight, and enough of the plate to make it no contest.

 

But they still had to be very careful to keep feeding the plate until the missing gauntlet was fully regrown...

[WhiteLeeopard]

On dead place: during the battle of Narak Adolin lost nearly all his plate, but he wasn't worried, just told the bridgemen to find a piece to use as seed to regrow it entirely.

[soyperson]

I said "oh no" loudly when I read that last sentence of chapter 12. 

Things are not looking up for Dalinar.

[Mulk]

14 hours ago, Extesian said:

Beardin is back! Oh to spend cold nights nestled in your silky man-mane.

Any more questions?

Only one, with respect to the only piece of your post I left in...

Why would you call him Beardin when you could call him Kalabeard?

See how that rolls off the tongue? KALABEARD  KalaBEARD, Kalabeard, kalabeard kalabeard

Okay I'm done...

[QuantumHarmonix]

24 minutes ago, Stark said:

I remember it differently.  Dalinar left a gauntlet on the tower.  There was a concern that the listeners could regrow the whole plate from that one gauntlet if they had enough Stormlight.  He was not worried, as it would take him less stormlight to regrow his missing pieces, including the gauntlet than it would take the listeners to regrow the rest of the plate...  If successful the abandoned gauntlet would disintegrate to dust.  So it is more a race of who has more stormlight to spare and enough dedication to keep infusing the pieces.

 

If, say, Dalinar had lost the guantlet at the end of a normal weeping, when no one really has Stormlight left, and the listeners had enough spare, or got refueled by a highstorm first, they would have the advantage, and could regrow/steal the plate and put it into contest.  But, that was not the case, and Dalinar had enough stormlight, and enough of the plate to make it no contest.

 

But they still had to be very careful to keep feeding the plate until the missing gauntlet was fully regrown...

I realized after I wrote that that I hadn't been terribly clear. You can reform the plate from one piece, but if you have more pieces you have an easier time. The main point is that plate doesn't really seem to need to be bonded in any way remotely similar to blades. All that seems to be required is possession of a part and stormlight. Personally, while I like the follower spren creating the plate idea, I think the way the plate is formed is a big hurdle for that theory to overcome. I would expect the plates and blades to be connected more strongly if the blade spren was the one who created the plate.

[The Invested Beard]

30 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Only one, with respect to the only piece of your post I left in...

Why would you call him Beardin when you could call him Kalabeard?

See how that rolls off the tongue? KALABEARD  KalaBEARD, Kalabeard, kalabeard kalabeard

Okay I'm done...

Beardspren will soon be canonized. Just you watch.

[Mulk]

14 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Beardspren will soon be canonized. Just you watch.

I can totally live with that

[Kaladin al'Thor]

Quote

 

Dalinar leaped for the edge of the wall and grabbed a rope ladder to swing down. The ropes, of course, immediately snapped, sending him toppling to the ground. He struck with a crash of Plate on stone. It didn’t hurt, but his pride took a serious blow. Above, Sadeas looked at him over the edge. Dalinar could practically hear his voice.

Always rushing into things. Take some time to think once in a while, won’t you?

That had been a flat-out greenvine mistake. Dalinar growled and climbed to his feet, searching for his hammer. Storms! He’d bent the handle in his fall. How had he done that? It wasn’t made of the same strange metal as Blades and Plate, but it was still good steel.

Soldiers guarding the catapults swarmed toward him while the shadows of boulders passed overhead. Dalinar set his jaw, the Thrill saturating him, and reached for a stout wooden door set into the wall nearby. He ripped it free, the hinges popping, and stumbled. It came off more easily than he’d expected.

There was more to this armor than he’d ever imagined. Maybe he wasn’t any better with the Plate than some old gaffer, but he would change that. At that moment, he determined that he’d never be surprised again. He’d wear this Plate morning and night—he’d sleep in the storming stuff—until he was more comfortable in it than out.

 

I am listening to WoK for the hundredth time and I love the call back to his bit. What seemed to me to be just a throw away line to me was connected in a cool way two books later.
 

Quote

 

...and while the king and Sadeas looked regal in their armor, somehow Dalinar managed to look like a soldier. To him, the Plate was not an ornament. It was a tool. He never seemed to be surprised by the strength or speed the armor lent him. It was as if, for Dalinar Kholin, wearing his Plate was his natural state— it was the times without that were abnormal. Perhaps that was one reason he’d earned the reputation of being one of the greatest warriors and generals who ever lived.

Brandon Sanderson. The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 3306-3309). Tom Doherty Associates.

 

 

[Harbour]

I like how someone mentioned on reddit that Taravangian started his letter to Dalinar with "Your Majesty".

Like he knew.

Or Taravangian simply used logic and assumed based on Dalinar's reputation, that if he started to gather the nations, then he have already seized the throne. Maybe

Edited September 20, 2017 by Harbour

[Steeldancer]

Guys you all realize that renarin still has his shardplate?! 

He isn't disgusted by it. He's disgusted by the BLADE. 

[frozndevl]

Another thought I had after reading the "swinging around by the ankles" comment from Syl. What are they actually supposed to do with the dead Shardblades? There's no known way to get rid of them and they are probably too invested to be soulcast into smoke.

[Emerald101]

I think the numerous discussions over the morality of Adolin's actions have given us an unreal view of the Alethi legal system. If highprinces were immune purely by virtue of the title, then why didn't Sadeas just walk up to Dalinar during a feast, summon his blade, and burn his eyes out? It's more complicated than that. Sadeas got away with what he did because it was indirect, and allowed him to maintain a base level deniability. This was not the case with Adolin. Take heart, @maxal, I doubt Adolin becoming nominally highprince will just mitigate the consequences of him being found out. Even if it does, we still have to consider how Dalinar will react, which has potential for an interesting story.