[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[yulerule]

I'm pretty sure Dalinar still has his plate, and no Radiants hear screams when they touch the Plate. So either if it's made of nonsentient spren that don't scream, and sentient spren don't care about them (unlikely) or something else is going on. All Shardblades and Sprenblades are unique. However, when they form, you can possibly tell the order by mist shapes, and live blades have the gylph of their order on them.

So you can still see from what order dead blades came from. However, all (dead?) Plate is interchangeable. It shifts to fit the user, and has all equivalent functions. If each Nahel spren made the Plate for their bonded human, there would be differences, I think. Or there has to be a legitimate reason why plate that's made from say, windspren and (are lifespren the lower version of Wyndle) lifespren would behave and look identical. 

[Salkara]

3 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I would guess that Elhokar will decide to be harsh on Adolin to remove any doubts of favoritism and to help cement his authority. 

Probably require him to give up his shards and banishment (or imprisonment). Let's assume that brave, brave Adolin obeys Elhokar's edict. Funny how Brave and Obedient are the Divine Attributes associated with at least one KR order which would be okay with Adolin murdering Sadeas.

Personally, I see this as Adolin's path-of-least-resistance to Radiancy.

[CaptainRyan]

5 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I'm pretty sure Dalinar still has his plate, and no Radiants hear screams when they touch the Plate.

Gentle correction: Renarin has Dalinar's plate. But you are correct, we have seen no evidence that touching Shardplate causes the same issue for proto-Radiants/Radiants as touching dead Shardblades.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Elhokar punishing Adolin harshly and stripping him of rank after Adolin is Highprince (which technically even the king doesn't have the authority to do) opens up another whole host of problems. Who would take the Kholin princedom? The title of highprince goes to whoever can convince the lords of the princedom to choose to follow him. Normally it goes to the heir because afer years of grooming the lords will follow the heir easily. For Adolin its easy as he is liked, even loved by his men, has been leading them to war for over a year, oh yeah and he made a bunch of them Shardbearers weeks before. Lets say Adolin is removed by Elhokar after Dalinar has abdicated to show strength in his rule. Kholinar princedom then goes to:

1. Renarin. The men either think Renarin is creepy, or mildly like him. Problem is he is not a warrior, nor a great organizer like Sebarial. Alethkar may be on its way to change, but it won't for a while yet, and at the moment warriors are at the top of the pyramid. Only reason they would follow Renarin is respect for Dalinar. Problem, it would still circumvent Elhokar's authority as Dalinar would act as highprince and highking. 
2. Elhokar. Everyone would say Elhokar then removed Adolin out of greed to get the princedom for himself. 
3. Someone else. Princedom falls out of control of the Kholins.

None of these really solidify strength of rule for Elhokar. I'm starting to wonder if the situation will just be solved by the lords of Kholin princedom and the lords of Sadeas princedom. 

[CaptainRyan]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Lets say Adolin is removed by Elhokar after Dalinar has abdicated to show strength in his rule. Kholinar princedom then goes to:

1. Renarin

I'd say full stop right there. Renarin is the heir after Adolin. This scenario is even contemplated by Navani (I think) towards the end of the Way of Kings when everyone is assuming Dalinar and Adolin perished at the Tower after Sadeas betrayed them. 

Renarin might not be immediately beloved by his subjects but he is Dalinar's son and I think they would follow him. Elhokar would strengthen his rule by showing that he has the authority to administer justice to even Highprinces and Dalinar not interfering would show that Elhokar truly has regained the throne of Alethkar. Or, at least, I see that as a plausible scenario that Brandon could write.

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I'd say full stop right there. Renarin is the heir after Adolin. This scenario is even contemplated by Navani (I think) towards the end of the Way of Kings when everyone is assuming Dalinar and Adolin perished at the Tower after Sadeas betrayed them. 

Renarin might not be immediately beloved by his subjects but he is Dalinar's son and I think they would follow him. Elhokar would strengthen his rule by showing that he has the authority to administer justice to even Highprinces and Dalinar not interfering would show that Elhokar truly has regained the throne of Alethkar. Or, at least, I see that as a plausible scenario that Brandon could write.

I don't know, Renarin as highprince doesn't fit in my mental image. I think he would neither do a good job of it nor be happy in the position. Then again I don't really fit Adolin as highprince for some reason, maybe I just need time to consider the princedom on anyone's hands other than Dalinar . 

[+ElephantEarwax]

6 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I'd say full stop right there. Renarin is the heir after Adolin. This scenario is even contemplated by Navani (I think) towards the end of the Way of Kings when everyone is assuming Dalinar and Adolin perished at the Tower after Sadeas betrayed them. 

Renarin might not be immediately beloved by his subjects but he is Dalinar's son and I think they would follow him. Elhokar would strengthen his rule by showing that he has the authority to administer justice to even Highprinces and Dalinar not interfering would show that Elhokar truly has regained the throne of Alethkar. Or, at least, I see that as a plausible scenario that Brandon could write.

I have to wonder, highprincing (my word) would be time consuming, and he as a radiant would not want to take the time to do that.

[muco]

Adolins crime needs to be put in perspective.....

all the current known radiants, the king and few other high princes are glad to see asadeas dead. there is no beating around this fact.

now at individual level..

Kaladin: this guy is not ruled by laws of man or gods. Kaladin has his own moral compass which is governed by his oaths. he would be the last person to even go against Adolin. if not for Sadeas death, Kaladin might have had to kill Sadeas himself due to his oaths.

Shallan: it's a bit funny for people to assume that she would be angry at Adolin. let's recall her past as well as her present. the secrets she still is part of and the murders she committed. coming to her moral compass, she might actually start adoring Adolin even more.

Dalinar: this is one man who could pose a few tough questions to Adolin. but let's bring in a bit of perspective. Dalinar was so brutal at one point that he probably would have made current day Sadeas a.....anyway, Dalinar current moral compass can be trouble for Adolin.

Elhokar: This guy does not give  damnation Sadeas is dead. Adolin is his brother. he was part of plan with Dalinar and Adolin to kill Sadeas few months earlier.

[maxal]

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

@maxal for most things Adolin is above the law now yes.

I don't think the murder of a Highprince counts as "most things." 

If anything the stakes are higher now. As Highprince, he either submits to punishment, or draws House Kholin into war with the other houses. 

It's not just his life on the line anymore. 

Truth is, we have very little information as to how Highprinces might be trialed in case of misconduct. I would however argue the things we do know do hint towards Alethkar having no way to prosecute its highest ranked individuals. Shall Adolin been proved murderous after being named Highprince, then I honestly do not see who has the authority to punish him. In theory, we could argue the king does, but in reality we know the king as virtually no power as to how princedoms manage their affair. We had the discussion, in the past, on how princedoms had complete autonomy when it comes to naming the next Highprince. Brandon confirmed being the "Highprince" merely implied other lords being willing to call you so. Hence, the only, only way Adolin could suffer any consequences for murdering Sadeas is if:

1) Elhokar re-writes the Alethi law to give the legal right to dispose of Highprinces. Unfortunately, the other princedom would never agree to have the king intercept in business they do not consider befits him.

2) A contender arises and challenges Adolin for the rank of Highprince.

I honestly do not see what else could happen to him or whom has the authority to impose him any sanction.

18 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Adolin can still be tried, stripped of his rank, and executed or exiled. Dalinar was worried this very thing would happen to him in TWoKs when he thought he would be accused of trying to kill the king. And Elkohar asked Dalinar if he should arrest Sadeas when he betrayed Dalinar on the field and left him to die. So within the Law Adolin killing Sadeas could be tried. Heck, Dalinar was planning to try Amaram for killing a few of lowly darkeyes.

Sadeas wasn't tried because his army and allies would have prevented him from being arrested and likely started a civil war that destroyed the kingdom. However, as loved as Adolin is the armies loyal to him are loyal to his father. Adolin committing such a crime dishonors the new Highking of Urithru and therefore Dalinar will have to at least exile him to save face.

@maxal don't lose heart. Your Dalinar vs Adolin conflict is coming. Adolin will need to run from Urithru before this is over, likely with Bridgeboy's help.

By whom? Whom has the authority to trial a Highprince? Theoretically we could think the king has it, but realistically speaking we know he doesn't. Elhokar most likely doesn't have a say into whom is Highprince and whom isn't. For Adolin to face consequences, it would require the brightlords under him to rebel and demand his removal, but as long as the army and the highlords of Kholin are loyal to him, there is naught Elhokar or Dalinar can do. Prior to Adolin being named Highprince, Dalinar had the authority to disowned Adolin, to punish him, but now he surrendered this right.

Thus, what Dalinar thinks of murdering Sadeas, it isn't going to matter.

While there might a possibility Elhokar actually has the capacity to trial a Highprince, I haven't seen enough evidence of it to believe it might be the case.

So while Dalinar may have a negative reaction to Adolin murdering Sadeas, the fact he doesn't have the capacity to impose consequences sincerely diminishes the tension. I mean, as far as I am concerned, Adolin was just handed a free pass for having killed Sadeas as nobody will dare oppose him once he is Highprince and those who would, won't have the ability to.

Also, has anyone considered the possibility of Adolin becoming Highprince meaning the end of his dueling career? I mean, nobody can challenge him now and being a Highprince likely means he can't be the King's Champion anymore.

17 hours ago, Frostlander said:

@maxal Any thought on whether Adolin's ability to listen to and to understand Renarin-speak is significant? I was thinking about Lift's talent for understanding and speaking street slang. 

Also, related, but not to OB, I know the pre-duel ceremony involved remembering his conspicuously-forgotten mother via her chain, but it also got me thinking about eating chicken. If his mother is Iri or Rira, those kingdoms' proximity to Shinovar might mean his mother favored chicken, giving the ceremony another remembrance aspect. (I'm not sure if there's anything to it, but I'm actually kind of serious about the chicken...)

Nah, I agree with the others, it was just him knowing his brother's thinking patterns.

Good one about the chicken. I hope to learn more about Adolin's pre-duel routine.

52 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Elhokar punishing Adolin harshly and stripping him of rank after Adolin is Highprince (which technically even the king doesn't have the authority to do) opens up another whole host of problems. Who would take the Kholin princedom? The title of highprince goes to whoever can convince the lords of the princedom to choose to follow him. Normally it goes to the heir because afer years of grooming the lords will follow the heir easily. For Adolin its easy as he is liked, even loved by his men, has been leading them to war for over a year, oh yeah and he made a bunch of them Shardbearers weeks before. Lets say Adolin is removed by Elhokar after Dalinar has abdicated to show strength in his rule. Kholinar princedom then goes to:

1. Renarin. The men either think Renarin is creepy, or mildly like him. Problem is he is not a warrior, nor a great organizer like Sebarial. Alethkar may be on its way to change, but it won't for a while yet, and at the moment warriors are at the top of the pyramid. Only reason they would follow Renarin is respect for Dalinar. Problem, it would still circumvent Elhokar's authority as Dalinar would act as highprince and highking. 
2. Elhokar. Everyone would say Elhokar then removed Adolin out of greed to get the princedom for himself. 
3. Someone else. Princedom falls out of control of the Kholins.

None of these really solidify strength of rule for Elhokar. I'm starting to wonder if the situation will just be solved by the lords of Kholin princedom and the lords of Sadeas princedom. 

This post reflects exactly why I do not like the plot twist. I feel it removes basically all options from the table. Considering the fact we are just at chapter 12, I found it slightly anti-climatic. 

Adolin can't refuse because there is nobody else but him.

Elhokar can't trial Adolin both because he doesn't have the authority to do so and because there is nobody else but Adolin to take over the princedom.

There just isn't much to be done. Adolin has bee given a free pass for his actions.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by maxal

[+eveorjoy]

Elhokar has the authority to bring a highprince to trial.

The Way of Kings Chapter 69 "Justice" pg 593  I'm removing Dalinar's and Elhohar's actions for the sake of brevity. Bold add by me.

Quote

 

"Sadeas betrayed me today," Dalinar said... "Nearly six thousand of my men were slaughtered. Adolin and I barely survived."

"What?" Elhokar said..."That's impossible!"

"Far from it," Dalinar said..."He saw a chance to pull out, letting the Parshendi destroy us. A very Alethi thing to do. Ruthless, yet still allowing him to feign a sense of honor or morality."

"So...you expect me to bring him to trial?"

 

 

The fact that Elhokar, who does know Alethi law, suggested that shows yes a King can legally try and punish a HIghprince. Now if the Highprinces army disagrees with their Brightlord bring brought on trial, then it doesn't matter how legal it is, the trial will not happen. Adolin would not rally his troops to fight his cousin. He would not destroy Alethikar like that. So yes Elhokar could decide to try and punish Adolin for Sadeas's death and Dalinar according to Oathbringer chapter 12 could not interfere. So Adolin might not be Highprince for long.

Renarin is the next in line and how strange he appears doesn't matter. If a narcissist spoiled brat like Elhokar can inherit so can Renarin. However, Renarin can't inherit because he is a Radiant and therefore automatically under Dalinar's jurisdiction. I don't think Elhokar will want Highprinces who are still under Dalinar's authority even outside of Urithru. Maybe his son will be Highprince or some Kholin cousin.

Edited September 20, 2017 by eveorjoy

[Calderis]

@maxal so when it comes out that now Highprince Adolin killed Sadeas, Elhokar and all of the other Highprinces are just gonna say "well, that's that... Nothing we can do"

Are you storming serious? 

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@maxal so when it comes out that now Highprince Adolin killed Sadeas, Elhokar and all of the other Highprinces are just gonna say "well, that's that... Nothing we can do"

Are you storming serious? 

Yes. I think this is exactly what will happen. Sadeas betrayed Dalinar, an ally in war, he killed 6000 men and they were all: "Well, that's that... Nothing we can do.". They all knew he did it, they could have asked for an investigation, for a trial, but they didn't because it would have caused greater prejudice. The same applies here: they can't trial Adolin now because it would create too much of a prejudice. The Kholin princedom could literally spiral out of Dalinar's hands: nobody is going to chance on that except Sadeas's allies who were running thin. 

Those unhappy about it will probably be bought or something, but I doubt they will do anything to Adolin.

[muco]

punish Adolin would mean loosing support of Bridge4 and Adolins men. as much as the kholin soldiers like Dalinar, punishing Adolin for killing Sadeas a guy responsible for butchery of half their men.....yeah, really would love to see anyone spin this to Kholin soldiers.

 

Sadeas murder has an arc and I am not sure it's about Adolin getting screwed by his dad.

Edited September 20, 2017 by muco

[maxal]

Just now, muco said:

punish Adolin would mean loosing support of Bridge4 and Adolins men. as much as the kholin men like Dalinar, punishing Adolin for killing Sadeas a guy responsible for butchery of half their men.....yeah, really would love to see anyone soon this to Kholin soldiers.

 

Sadeas murder has an arc and I am not sure it's about Adolin getting screwed by his dad.

Agree. I initially thought it would pan out into a Dalinar/Adolin conflict, but now I don't think it will. I am not even sure it will create any conflicts anymore, worst I am not even sure the truth will ever come out. I underestimated Adolin's capacities to hold onto secrets. I thought it'd be impossible for him, he'd have to get it out, but seems I was wrong. 

Adolin will never speak and they will never find evidence. Case closed.

[+eveorjoy]

Just now, maxal said:

Yes. I think this is exactly what will happen. Sadeas betrayed Dalinar, an ally in war, he killed 6000 men and they were all: "Well, that's that... Nothing we can do.". They all knew he did it, they could have asked for an investigation, for a trial, but they didn't because it would have caused greater prejudice. The same applies here: they can't trial Adolin now because it would create too much of a prejudice. The Kholin princedom could literally spiral out of Dalinar's hands: nobody is going to chance on that except Sadeas's allies who were running thin. 

Those unhappy about it will probably be bought or something, but I doubt they will do anything to Adolin.

So you missed my quote from the Way of Kings where Elhokar suggested bringing Sadeas to trial, I see. It has nothing to do with prejudice. It has more to do with the fear that the Highprince will use their army to prevent the trial and destroy the Kingdom. Sadeas would use his army that way. Adolin will accept the trial to save the kingdom.

[maxal]

Just now, eveorjoy said:

So you missed my quote from the Way of Kings where Elhokar suggested bringing Sadeas to trial, I see. It has nothing to do with prejudice. It has more to do with the fear that the Highprince will use their army to prevent the trial and destroy the Kingdom. Sadeas would use his army that way. Adolin will accept the trial to save the kingdom.

I saw it, I just don't believe Elhokar really has this authority. Besides, he is going away, so who will be left to trial Adolin? No one.

[CaptainRyan]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I underestimated Adolin's capacities to hold onto secrets. I thought it'd be impossible for him, he'd have to get it out, but seems I was wrong. 

Adolin will never speak and they will never find evidence. Case closed.

This is just my opinion but seeing as we are only 12 chapters into Oathbringer I, personally, am not quite ready to call case closed. I think Adolin's arc with the murder is far from over.

[maxal]

Just now, CaptainRyan said:

This is just my opinion but seeing as we are only 12 chapters into Oathbringer I, personally, am not quite ready to call case closed. I think Adolin's arc with the murder is far from over.

He waited too long. Now he can't say anything because he will lose the princedom. Seems doubtful he will speak. It probably isn't over, but I can't really see what could realistically happen to him now. 

[Emerald101]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

I saw it, I just don't believe Elhokar really has this authority. Besides, he is going away, so who will be left to trial Adolin? No one.

Well, Dalinar is Highking, and while he gave up any authority over the particulars of Alethkar, the crime was committed in Urithiru, where Dalinar does have jurisdiction.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Emerald101
clarity

[+eveorjoy]

I think if Adolin is Highprince he would be going with Elhokar back to Kholinar. He currently is not a KR so there is no reason for him to stay in Urithru. 

But we shall see what happens in Oathbringer.

[muco]

34 minutes ago, maxal said:

Agree. I initially thought it would pan out into a Dalinar/Adolin conflict, but now I don't think it will. I am not even sure it will create any conflicts anymore, worst I am not even sure the truth will ever come out. I underestimated Adolin's capacities to hold onto secrets. I thought it'd be impossible for him, he'd have to get it out, but seems I was wrong. 

Adolin will never speak and they will never find evidence. Case closed.

probably.

 

still, imagine trying to punish Adolin. do you think Bridge 4 and Kholin  soldier's would take it quietly.

there will be help to pay for any person from these 2 groups if anyone plan to touch Adolin. Army is run on loyalty.

[Zea mays]

It may not come to 'punishing' Adolin. If Dalinar deeply dissaproves of what Adolin has done (still an if) and has a personal feud with him, that by itself could be worse (from Adolin's point of view) than any 'punishment' Elhokar could impose.

One of Kaladin's issues (one amongst many) is his (not at all unfounded) belief that he is a dissapointment to his father. I do not really want to see Adolin face the same feeling, but fear that it may now be inevitable.

"I had hoped you would do better than me, son".

sigh.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Emerald101 said:

Well, Dalinar is Highking, and while he gave up any authority over the particulars of Alethkar, the crime was committed in Urithiru, where Dalinar does have jurisdiction.

This is actually a valid point. It brightens my hope though what is likely to happen is if Adolin is punished, I'll complain it is too harsh 

39 minutes ago, muco said:

probably.

 

still, imagine trying to punish Adolin. do you think Bridge 4 and Kholin  soldier's would take it quietly.

there will be help to pay for any person from these 2 groups if anyone plan to touch Adolin. Army is run on loyalty.

This is why I am starting to doubt much will come out of the murder... Well, something might come out of it, but not what we were expecting.

10 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

It may not come to 'punishing' Adolin. If Dalinar deeply dissaproves of what Adolin has done (still an if) and has a personal feud with him, that by itself could be worse (from Adolin's point of view) than any 'punishment' Elhokar could impose.

One of Kaladin's issues (one amongst many) is his (not at all unfounded) belief that he is a dissapointment to his father. I do not really want to see Adolin face the same feeling, but fear that it may now be inevitable.

"I had hoped you would do better than me, son".

sigh.

Another valid point though I don't think Kaladin ever looked up to his father as much as Adolin looks up to his nor do I think the expectations Lirin put on Kaladin were as strong as the ones Dalinar put on Adolin. I mean, Lirin wanted Kaladin to become a surgeon: he did not give him the imperative to be the best man ever... just to not agree killing is right no matter the circumstances.

Still, I agree there is a mirror to be had in between the Kaladin/Lirin and the Adolin/Dalinar conflict with the major difference, we haven't seen any Adolin/Dalinar conflict. I remain unsure this is where Brandon is taking the story.

[Calderis]

The other Highprinces will not simply lie back when one of their own has been murdered. It doesn't matter that Sadeas was losing political ground. 

His attack on Dalinar is not the same. Dalinar lived, and as much as everyone knows what he tried, Dalinar publicly acknowledged his story as correct. 

The loyal armies argument doesn't work either. Bridge Four and House Kholin are loyal yes. To house Kholin. There's plenty of other armies. 

Saying that Adolin is suddenly immune to punishment is remarkably short sighted. 

[BlackYeti]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Yes. I think this is exactly what will happen. Sadeas betrayed Dalinar, an ally in war, he killed 6000 men and they were all: "Well, that's that... Nothing we can do.". They all knew he did it, they could have asked for an investigation, for a trial, but they didn't because it would have caused greater prejudice. The same applies here: they can't trial Adolin now because it would create too much of a prejudice. The Kholin princedom could literally spiral out of Dalinar's hands: nobody is going to chance on that except Sadeas's allies who were running thin. 

Those unhappy about it will probably be bought or something, but I doubt they will do anything to Adolin.

I agree with @Calderis here. At the very least the Sadeas princedom would declare war on the Kholin princedom. The only reason that Dalinar did not do that following the Tower was that he was concerned for Alethkar's stability. Sadeas, on the other hand, did not care for it in the slightest; in fact he was actively working against it. Therefore we can assume that his successor probably won't be similarly inhibited.

Adolin could easily be put into a position where he had to accept judgement in order to preserve the peace.