[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Erunion said:

I really do see exile as the likeliest path for Adolin - one way or another. It might be imposed by the King, or self-imposed - hard to tell. But I am fairly confident that Adolin will have to deal with his crimes, and I can't see him getting executed by his cousin. 

Although that would be a twist

I... still see the Kholin princedom getting attacked as the most probable thing. Most probably by the Sadeas princedom. Their leadership is gone, the Everstorm is running havoc. What a wonderful opportunity for Ialai to seize power and wage war against the Kholins.

Should Adolin really become the new highprince soon, then he will have to go there and defend his princedom. Though I think, that he would do it either way - even if he isn't the highprince at that time. He wouldn't get exiled that way, but rather leave out of his own volition.

[muco]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I... still see the Kholin princedom getting attacked as the most probable thing. Most probably by the Sadeas princedom. Their leadership is gone, the Everstorm is running havoc. What a wonderful opportunity for Ialai to seize power and wage war against the Kholins.

Should Adolin really become the new highprince soon, then he will have to go there and defend his princedom. Though I think, that he would do it either way - even if he isn't the highprince at that time. He wouldn't get exiled that way, but rather leave out of his own volition.

with radiants on Dalinar side.....that fight would go well.

[Elena]

14 hours ago, Pammie said:

 

I think that the real issue is that by being the 'Highking' of Alethkar AND refounding/leading the Knights Radiant, Dalinar is unintentionally setting up the Knights Radiant as an Alethi group, which will definitely create factions among the surgebinders. So, Dalinar has a few options: 

Wait, I thought Dalinar was being set up as Highking of Roshar. He wants to unite the continent  (behind himself) and go beyond his roots in Alethkar. That would also give him a mandate to rule over the KR, eventually, if all rulers accept him. Still, I'm more inclined to believe that the position of Highking, if it ever was a thing or if it will be indeed made a thing in the saga, will be as a first among equals, a sort of leader of a council of sovereigns and a council of the 10 orders of KR (since most Heralds aren't exactly in a position to lead the orders).

I'm still not sure where this Highking business will lead though. Dalinar is the only one who can feasibly hold this position, and I don't see the role outliving Dalinar. It could become a sort of cerimonial title for the major KR leader, but I think things will have to change a lot before the kings and queens of Roshar can swallow a random, non-princely KR being nominally above them.

[mosaab]

5 hours ago, Erunion said:

Also, Adolin acts very edgendancer-ey. Remember the prostitute in Sadeas' warcamp? Adolin did. Remember poor Renarin, the boy on the spectrum shunned by his own society? Adolin did. Remember Sureblood, and Gallant, the brave horses who fought and one died for their masters? Adolin did. He remembers those that were forgotten. 

Non of these acts are edgedancer-ey. They are the easy thing to do, the expected thing to do. Adolin is a good person, that doesn't make him a radiant. People who lives by their convictions & ideals even when it's the hard thing to do, the impractical thing to do, the thing that may cost them their life. That is what Makes a radiant.

Remembering your brother, your father horse is good but easy.

Helping the prostitute when you know that you will suffer nothing from it is easy.

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by mosaab

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, mosaab said:

Non of these acts are edgedancer-ey. They are the easy thing to do, the expected thing to do. Adolin is a good person, that doesn't make him a radiant. People who lives by their convictions & ideals even when it's the hard thing to do, the impractical thing to do, the thing that may cost them their life. That is what Makes a radiant.

Remembering your brother, your father horse is good but easy.

Helping the prostitute when you know that you will suffer nothing from it is easy.

 

Easy/hard has nothing to do with it. It's the essence of the Oaths of the Orders that draw the Spren. We've seen two Edgedancer oaths. 

"I will remember those who have been forgotten" 

"I will listen to those who have been ignored" 

Both of those things are arguably "easy" and the majority of people still don't do it. Both of those things also apply to Adolin's actions. Consistently. 

[Aleksiel]

5 hours ago, mosaab said:

Non of these acts are edgedancer-ey. They are the easy thing to do, the expected thing to do. Adolin is a good person, that doesn't make him a radiant. People who lives by their convictions & ideals even when it's the hard thing to do, the impractical thing to do, the thing that may cost them their life. That is what Makes a radiant.

Remembering your brother, your father horse is good but easy.

Helping the prostitute when you know that you will suffer nothing from it is easy.

 

Bribing to get untrained boys to your squad so you can keep them safe is also easy. Who besides Kaladin did it?

A big part of the Adolin the ED theory is based on a few additional things:

• He has confirmed dead ED Blade
• He has refused to name it, which is highly unusual
• He talks to it as if it's a person
• It is very difficult, but possible to revive a Blade (though unconfirmed if one can revive a Blade s/he didn't have a Nahel bond with)

So the main theory is not that he'll attract a spren, but rather revive his Blade, in a way remember its name. Adolin's actions are consistent with what we know of ED so far. Both Lift and Adolin have trouble forming meaningful and deep relationships with their peers if you want to dive into exploring characters flaws and not solely virtues. You can't expect Adolin to act as a full ED before even one Ideal, otherwise there would have been no progress for surgebinders.

edit: missed a word 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Emerald101]

56 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

You can't expect Adolin to act as a full ED before even one Ideal, otherwise there would have been no progress for surgebinders.

This. Adolin fits very well with the first Edgedancer oath. IMO he has the beginnings of the second oath and a lot of potential. The thing is that we can't expect someone to perfectly fit for an order when considering potential radiants. Kaladin shows very little adherence to the second Windrunner oath between his time in the army and the end of WoK, but that doesn't stop Syl from bonding him. Nahel bonds are organic not static, and you can definitely have the seed of one without a full-grown plant, so to speak.

edit: Maybe the organic nature of the bond is because of Cultivation's influence. I will think on this more.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Emerald101
addition

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

Maybe the organic nature of the bond is because of Cultivation's influence. I will think on this more.

It absolutely is. I recently stated in another thread that my view on surgebinding as a mixture of Honor and Cultivation makes their intents role very very clear in surgebinding. 

The Oaths themselves, a restrictive code of conduct that allows the power is clearly of Honor. 

The growth in power and character by progressing through the Oaths,the shaping of a person into a Radiant, is Cultivation. 

You can't "cultivate" something that is already perfected, and a Radiant can't strengthen their bond with a spren if they already follow the ideals perfectly.

Surgebinding is not solely of Honor, it's both. Spren don't seek out people who are already perfect Radiants. They look for people who have the potential to grow into them. 

[Salkara]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

I however am unsure Elhokar has the capacity and the will to take drastic actions against Adolin.

...

How will they react if they are forced to choose in between Dalinar and Adolin? I cannot say, but I wouldn't say it is a done deal they could prefer Dalinar.  

If Elhokar was acting without external support, I'm sure there would be an issue. Once Adolin's actions come to light (as I assume they must), Elhokar will have all the other highprinces (and likely Dalinar, as well) supporting massive punishment for Adolin. In that scenario, Elhokar will have the capacity.

As for the Kholinar army, I'm not saying 100% of them will go for Dalinar; however, even if half followed Adolin, it's not enough for a successful rebellion. Besides, the only way I see this being an issue is if Adolin fights his punishment, which I doubt will happen.

[Pammie]

8 hours ago, Elena said:

Wait, I thought Dalinar was being set up as Highking of Roshar. He wants to unite the continent  (behind himself) and go beyond his roots in Alethkar. That would also give him a mandate to rule over the KR, eventually, if all rulers accept him. Still, I'm more inclined to believe that the position of Highking, if it ever was a thing or if it will be indeed made a thing in the saga, will be as a first among equals, a sort of leader of a council of sovereigns and a council of the 10 orders of KR (since most Heralds aren't exactly in a position to lead the orders).

Whoa, Highking of Roshar? Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought that he wants to unite the nations in a let's-be-friends-and-fight-together way, not a let-me-lead-you way. There's way more to uniting than conquering or leading: he would have to convince the leaders to work together without being their Highking, which is much harder. 

There's no way all of the countries of Roshar would just bend the knee because Dalinar's a KR. And even if they did, then wouldn't that mean that the KR would basically become the ruling class? If Dalinar is Highking over all of Roshar and the leader of the KR, then they would become his own personal army/noblemen, which is NOT how I envisioned them. I assumed that the KR were a separate group from all of the countries, that they have no allegiance to a single country but would help whenever asked/needed.

So Dalinar would be the Highking of Alethkar only and would try to get the nations to work together through diplomatic means only. Also, we don't have any evidence that Bondsmiths lead the KR. They might've been consulted and their opinions might've held a lot of weight, but it seems to me that every KR order was self-governing, although I love the idea of a KR council! That'd be awesome

[Knabepicer]

43 minutes ago, Pammie said:

So Dalinar would be the Highking of Alethkar only and would try to get the nations to work together through diplomatic means only.

The text seems to indicate otherwise though: Dalinar thinks to himself about how he has been rejected by the kingdom that he fought to unite, and Elhokar says that he will still have authority over the highprinces when in Alethkar, indicating that he will remain the highest authority over Alethkar itself. 

[Pammie]

Quote

“I…” Elhokar swallowed. “He should give up his lands to his heir. Dalinar is a king of somewhere else, after all. Dalinar, Highking of Urithiru, maybe the Shattered Plains.” He stood straighter, speaking more certainly. “Dalinar must stay out of the direct management of my lands. He can give me commands, but I decide how to see them accomplished.”

@Knabepicer You're right! I misread. Although Elkohar is vowing to follow Dalinar's commands, Dalinar won't be the Highking of Alethkar but Urithiru. This still doesn't mean that he'll become Highking of Roshar, but does this mean he'll become the leader of the KR? It still seems strange to me, especially since we don't know anything yet about the KR infrastructure. Dalinar and Elkohar obviously don't either, but that's not stopping them. I guess we have to wait to find out. 

[Khyrindor]

1 hour ago, Pammie said:

@Knabepicer You're right! I misread. Although Elkohar is vowing to follow Dalinar's commands, Dalinar won't be the Highking of Alethkar but Urithiru. This still doesn't mean that he'll become Highking of Roshar, but does this mean he'll become the leader of the KR? It still seems strange to me, especially since we don't know anything yet about the KR infrastructure. Dalinar and Elkohar obviously don't either, but that's not stopping them. I guess we have to wait to find out. 

Dalinar may be operating under the assumption that Nohadon was a Bondsmith. Since he was like a king during the last Desolation, it makes sense for him to take that mantle. 

[Siaun Sanche]

44 minutes ago, Pammie said:

@Knabepicer You're right! I misread. Although Elkohar is vowing to follow Dalinar's commands, Dalinar won't be the Highking of Alethkar but Urithiru. This still doesn't mean that he'll become Highking of Roshar, but does this mean he'll become the leader of the KR? It still seems strange to me, especially since we don't know anything yet about the KR infrastructure. Dalinar and Elkohar obviously don't either, but that's not stopping them. I guess we have to wait to find out. 

The arrangement seems destined to confuse everybody, to be honest. Dalinar isn't formally claiming any lands outside of Alethkar, but by taking a title higher than the king of Alethkar, isn't he implicitly claiming a status higher than the other monarchs as well? Wouldn't it seem that his current 'unity' kick is a pretext to justify moving against the other realms of Roshar? He seems _awfully_ eager to send his troops to 'help rebuild', or collect all of their Surgebinders for 'training.'

On the homefront, Dalinar has a broad mandate to send commands to Elhokar and Elhokar has a vague right to interpret those commands as he sees fit. That seems destined for further conflict. Say that Dalinar needs to call up the troops for a battle against the Voidbringers--can he say how many? Can he say which houses he wants, who commands, who stays behind? Can he keep them for years? At what point does that start to infringe on Elhokar's sphere of responsibility? Dalinar's not mean-spirited but he's controlling and he doesn't really think much of Elhokar as a leader, and Elhokar's trying to claim some ground for himself so he's going to want some flexibility. (The irony of this business is that this is only a loss of status for Elhokar on paper; if Elhokar gets what he wants in practice, it's a massive increase in his power from what he was practically able to do as of WoR.)

Meanwhile, are all of the highprinces cool with this highking business? We don't know, but we have to imagine that nobody expected when they rode out of the Shattered Plains to be serving Dalinar. Dalinar's loyalists will be on board, I imagine--but your average highprince doesn't necessarily trust Dalinar's goodwill more than the Queen of Thaylenah does. I'd been leaning towards the idea that Dalinar's assumption of command was going to alienate Elhokar and lead to a split between the two of them, but I don't think that works anymore. There's likely going to be tension between Elhokar and Dalinar still, but the highprinces who oppose Dalinar will probably oppose them both.

[maxal]

13 hours ago, mosaab said:

Non of these acts are edgedancer-ey. They are the easy thing to do, the expected thing to do. Adolin is a good person, that doesn't make him a radiant. People who lives by their convictions & ideals even when it's the hard thing to do, the impractical thing to do, the thing that may cost them their life. That is what Makes a radiant.

Remembering your brother, your father horse is good but easy.

Helping the prostitute when you know that you will suffer nothing from it is easy.

 

Listening to a street urchin when you are a street urchin yourself is also extraordinarily easy and yet it served as Lift's second oath. 

As others have pointed out, being a Radiants isn't about wasting your life to the service of others: you do not get pick based as to whether or not life gave you the opportunity to heal a teenage boy while facing a threat. You get chosen based on your ability to embrace an idea, a concept and Edgedancers are about remembering, about caring, about thinking of those nobody else sees fit to think of. Is it easy? 

If it were easy, then the elderly wouldn't be alone within their home. If it were easy, then nobody would fall victim to bullies because everyone would step in to interfere. If it were easy, then our beggars wouldn't be ignored by the by-passers.

It is easy to say it was easy for Adolin to take time on his insane schedule to go see how Gallant was doing. It was so easy Dalinar didn't see fit to do it himself. Truth is, it is always easier to not do a thing.

It is easier to ignore the prostitute and to walk pass even if those men aren't a threat for you. It is easier to stop thinking about your mother because then you avoid the pain. It is easier to brush over you men died uselessly because this is war and during war, people die. It is easier to ignore your weird brother. It is easier to ignore the fact Kaladin was unjustly imprisoned because the king ordered it. It is easier to not take time for the small things.

It is always easier to NOT take any action and yet Adolin always made the choice to act. It does not matter if he had to put his life in the line for those people, it does not matter if he did not single-handily rescued the prostitute by fighting his way in and out of an enemy warcamp. What matters is he did it when nobody else was.

I thus say, when it comes to potential, Adolin has a strong potential to develop as an Edgedancer. Is he one? Not just yet, but everything based on his character hints towards him having the ability to become this man, this person and no it will not be easy because easy isn't always about risking your life. Sometimes hard is about the little things.

8 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Both Lift and Adolin have trouble forming meaningful and deep relationships with their peers if you want to dive into exploring characters flaws and not solely virtues. You can't expect Adolin to act as a full ED before even one Ideal, otherwise there would have been no progress for surgebinders.

Lift and Adolin truly have more in common then it appears upon first glance. They are both sensitive, they both try to protect themselves, they both have issues with expectations people has on them.

6 hours ago, Salkara said:

If Elhokar was acting without external support, I'm sure there would be an issue. Once Adolin's actions come to light (as I assume they must), Elhokar will have all the other highprinces (and likely Dalinar, as well) supporting massive punishment for Adolin. In that scenario, Elhokar will have the capacity.

As for the Kholinar army, I'm not saying 100% of them will go for Dalinar; however, even if half followed Adolin, it's not enough for a successful rebellion. Besides, the only way I see this being an issue is if Adolin fights his punishment, which I doubt will happen.

I think @Harry the Heir has the bulk of it... Either Elhokar was being genuine or terribly manipulative as he did get Dalinar to do the following:

1) Give up his lands and titles to his son.

2) Surrender control of the Highprinces to him.

3) Accept Elhokar may apply his orders as he sees fit.

In exchange of what? Being named Highking and having Elhokar agree he would listen to his authority for matters of the Desolation, but as long as Elhokar has a say in it, what did Dalinar really gained?

I am starting to think he was duped. He loves Elhokar, he sees the best in him, but he got manipulated into giving everything he owned combined to his valid position of authority for a hypothetical one not really being endorsed by the other Highprinces. Worst, he agreed Elhokar could interpret the orders as he sees fit... This can't be good. It feels to me Dalinar was first presented with a choice he could not accept: Elhokar abducting only to accept a choice which seems lesser.... See it may be the same as the kid who asks for the new IPhone, watches his parents vehemently oppose themselves, only to propose a more affordable model, much to said parents relief. Problem is, the second choice is not something the parents would have agreed on had it been presented first.

Classic child to parent manipulation.

I thus am NOT convinced Elhokar is genuine here... I am NOT convinced nothing else is happening within the background.

[Salkara]

19 minutes ago, maxal said:

I thus am NOT convinced Elhokar is genuine here... I am NOT convinced nothing else is happening within the background.

That just seems so out of character for Elhokar to me that I can't see it being the case. We've seen Elhokar be an ineffective leader who wants to do better. We've seen him be hotheaded and paranoid. We've seen him overreact to minor transgressions. In 2000+ pages, I don't recall, however, seeing him be that duplicitous.

[Aleksiel]

44 minutes ago, maxal said:

Either Elhokar was being genuine or terribly manipulative as he did get Dalinar to do the following:

1) Give up his lands and titles to his son.

2) Surrender control of the Highprinces to him.

3) Accept Elhokar may apply his orders as he sees fit.

In exchange of what? Being named Highking and having Elhokar agree he would listen to his authority for matters of the Desolation, but as long as Elhokar has a say in it, what did Dalinar really gained?

I am starting to think he was duped. He loves Elhokar, he sees the best in him, but he got manipulated into giving everything he owned combined to his valid position of authority for a hypothetical one not really being endorsed by the other Highprinces. Worst, he agreed Elhokar could interpret the orders as he sees fit... This can't be good. It feels to me Dalinar was first presented with a choice he could not accept: Elhokar abducting only to accept a choice which seems lesser.... See it may be the same as the kid who asks for the new IPhone, watches his parents vehemently oppose themselves, only to propose a more affordable model, much to said parents relief. Problem is, the second choice is not something the parents would have agreed on had it been presented first.

Classic child to parent manipulation.

I thus am NOT convinced Elhokar is genuine here... I am NOT convinced nothing else is happening within the background.

Well, Elhokar did worn Dalinar last book to be a little more paranoid, so... 

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, Salkara said:

That just seems so out of character for Elhokar to me that I can't see it being the case. We've seen Elhokar be an ineffective leader who wants to do better. We've seen him be hotheaded and paranoid. We've seen him overreact to minor transgressions. In 2000+ pages, I don't recall, however, seeing him be that duplicitous.

Agreed. His proposal being given as an attempt to manipulate Dalinar is completely at odds with his next request. 

If he was still being selfish, spoiled, whiney Elhokar, there's no way his next proposal would have been to bring Kal with him to Kholinar to clean up the mess if he fails. 

Nothing about that scene points to him as anything other than genuine. Frankly, he's remarkably self aware in the scene, and it makes me like him more than I ever thought I would. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

27 minutes ago, Salkara said:

That just seems so out of character for Elhokar to me that I can't see it being the case. We've seen Elhokar be an ineffective leader who wants to do better. We've seen him be hotheaded and paranoid. We've seen him overreact to minor transgressions. In 2000+ pages, I don't recall, however, seeing him be that duplicitous.

He did fake an assassination attempt. It isn't above manipulation. It may be he is genuine, but I didn't feel it. He has a plan. I can't say what it is yet, but I don't think this decision will turn out as we expect it.

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Agreed. His proposal being given as an attempt to manipulate Dalinar is completely at odds with his next request. 

If he was still being selfish, spoiled, whiney Elhokar, there's no way his next proposal would have been to bring Kal with him to Kholinar to clean up the mess if he fails. 

Nothing about that scene points to him as anything other than genuine. Frankly, he's remarkably self aware in the scene, and it makes me like him more than I ever thought I would. 

Not if he has a plan... Going to Kholinar may be his chance to seize power. He ought to know it will ever happen as long as he stays in Urithiru and people have said his request to bring Kaladin with him may hide other intentions.

Yes, nothing points in the scene he is not being genuine which is why I am doubting he is. He did say Dalinar's lesson to the world was to take what he wanted. He did say not being able to keep up, next he wants to give it up and go to Kholinar to rescue it? 

I am not buying it. Elhokar has been manipulative and lying. Or it may be it is what it is, but I honestly wonder about it because it does seem like Dalinar got the short end of the deal. It does seem like he agreed to a bad one to prevent one he feared from happening. I do not read it as a good thing.

[Dahak]

On 19/09/2017 at 6:18 PM, SilverTiger said:

Also, I wonder where the archer, Teleb, is. It doesn't say he died, in fact, it indicates that he survived. But where is he now?

He died leading Sebareal's army near the end of Words of Radience. At the time he had both Blade and Plate that Adolin gave him.

Before that he was the one who was guarding Rlain while they were still suspicious of him.

 

 

[Erunion]

@maxal Great take on the Edgedancers - and on how hard the little things are. Absolutely right. 

 

Interesting take on Elhokar. I buy him being manipulative - I don't buy him having bad intentions. He just wants to get his rightful power and escape being under Dalinar's thumb all the time, while still allowing Dalinar to have authority/etc. 
By the way, Elhokar has sworn as a classic feudal vassal/suzerain to a higher ruler - a King swearing to an Emperor. Quite common in many times and eras. 

[Elena]

Okay, but... even if Elhokar had manipulated Dalinar into abdicating to Adolin (which I definitely don't believe is the case) then... what? Dalinar did so willingly. He had been usurping the authority of the king for months if not years, in the meanwhile calling himself Elhokar's biggest supporter. He took power and credibility away from a monarch who already had them in short supply to begin with. He refused to address what he was doing, therefore making it impossible to have an open conversation acknowledging the situation. He made it pretty clear he wasn't goint to stop.

What exactly was Elhokar supposed to do, take measures against his uncle? That would've fractured the kingdom even deeper. So even if Elhokar somehow constructed an intricate scheme do to... what? Regain the authority that was his in the first place? I see nothing wrong with it. It's probably the wisest political move he made since gaining the throne - good on him.

[Harbour]

Elhokar now got the same treatment as Renarin a couple weeks ago.

Renarin didn't do anything before to think he is able to be a copycat killer, to kill people like that.

The same with Elhokar now. Based on his behavior and things he did before i would never call him a manipulative evil bastard. Well, he tried to trick Dalinar in TWoK but it was a child-level trick and he was punished for that. Plus come on, he loves Navani enough to not mess with the man she loves.

Pretty sure the following events would confirm his intentions were clear and good.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Harbour

[Darvys]

51 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Elhokar now got the same treatment as Renarin a couple weeks ago.

Renarin didn't do anything before to think he is able to be a copycat killer, to kill people like that.

The same with Elhokar now. Based on his behavior and things he did before i would never call him a manipulative evil bastard. Well, he tried to trick Dalinar in TWoK but it was a child-level trick and he was punished for that. Plus come on, he loves Navani enough to not mess with the man she loves.

Pretty sure the following events would confirm his intentions were clear and good.

Drawback of weekly theorizing, sometimes consistancy and logic suffer in the wild speculations about the limited content.But we do get a few gems now and again, so it's still worth it.

[maxal]

8 hours ago, Erunion said:

@maxal Great take on the Edgedancers - and on how hard the little things are. Absolutely right. 

 

Interesting take on Elhokar. I buy him being manipulative - I don't buy him having bad intentions. He just wants to get his rightful power and escape being under Dalinar's thumb all the time, while still allowing Dalinar to have authority/etc. 
By the way, Elhokar has sworn as a classic feudal vassal/suzerain to a higher ruler - a King swearing to an Emperor. Quite common in many times and eras. 

Thanks  Sometimes, doing the small thing is so much harder than doing the grant thing. Edgedancers were about the small things: Nale laughed of them for it.

I am unsure if Elhokar is capable of bad intentions too, but my gut feeling is there was more to the scene then the text let on. It was too sudden. And the end result is very dangerous. I don't buy it was done in all innocence.

5 hours ago, Elena said:

Okay, but... even if Elhokar had manipulated Dalinar into abdicating to Adolin (which I definitely don't believe is the case) then... what? Dalinar did so willingly. He had been usurping the authority of the king for months if not years, in the meanwhile calling himself Elhokar's biggest supporter. He took power and credibility away from a monarch who already had them in short supply to begin with. He refused to address what he was doing, therefore making it impossible to have an open conversation acknowledging the situation. He made it pretty clear he wasn't goint to stop.

What exactly was Elhokar supposed to do, take measures against his uncle? That would've fractured the kingdom even deeper. So even if Elhokar somehow constructed an intricate scheme do to... what? Regain the authority that was his in the first place? I see nothing wrong with it. It's probably the wisest political move he made since gaining the throne - good on him.

Dalinar only abdicated to Adolin because Elhokar threatened to abdicated from being a king: he would not have done it in other circumstances. It wasn't something he was considering. It was something he decided to prevent something he considered graver to happen. This is why the scene leaves me with an ill-feeling.

Yes, you are right about Dalinar: he did usurp Elhokar's power, he did not consult him, he did ignore him, but he did it because these are times where they need to make decisions. They could not afford to manage Elhokar's self-ego and moods anymore. Dalinar's one mistake is not having the courage to admit it and postponing this discussion he said he would have with Elhokar. He did the same to Adolin back in WoK and it resulted in Adolin lashing out at Dalinar. I wouldn't be surprised if Elhokar's little bout came because Dalinar refused to address him. On this, I believe we agree.

Where I am not sure if where Elhokar is going with his plans. I am unsure he is completely genuine, I am unsure nobody else is not pulling the strings behind him. If I look at the result, he did effectively cripple Dalinar's powers, he made him swear and as such, Dalinar cannot go back on his words. The most brilliant thing about the scene is it does come across as if it were Dalinar's idea, it does come across as if Elhokar is genuine, but... I mean... surrender his lands to his son? Give the control of the Highprinces to Elhokar? Agree Elhokar has a right to say in how the orders are being applied?

Dalinar's powers were just crippled and it would have never happened had Dalinar not feel so guilty about Elhokar, it would have never happened had Elhokar not threatened to abdicate. And what is it about sending Elhokar to free Kholinar ? Elhokar? He never held field command, he has no army, the one he'll borrow isn't his. He has no experience. Why not send Adolin? Why waste Adolin in Urithiru training troops?

What else was he supposed to do? Well... I say he did exactly what he was supposed to do: he took back what he wanted, the kingdom and he took the opportunity he wanted: to be a hero. He did it all despite not being the best person for the task and Dalinar said, yes, yes, yes thinking he made a good deal.

3 hours ago, Harbour said:

Renarin didn't do anything before to think he is able to be a copycat killer, to kill people like that.

Huh? I don't believe one minute Renarin is behind those especially since they are harming Adolin, not helping him. I also don't believe Renarin knows.