[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Dlyol said:

Yes! Exactly this. This view, that injustices, when they occur only occur because the king doesn't know or because his advisors are deceiving him, was the norm in almost every pre-modern society. It is central to how feudalism sustains itself as a socioeconomic model and I don't see any reason why Alethkar would be different. Presumably, prior to the Kholin unification, the Highprinces were the focus of this assumption and now it has shifted to the king.

@maxal I did not mean to suggest you don't know your history and I'm sorry if I did. I think on this one we will have to agree to disagree although our positions aren't actually that different in that we are both now cautioning each other in believing too strongly in one narrative as opposed to arguing for another. Is your view possible, certainly maybe even plausible. I don't, however, believe it is probable for three reasons. One is meta-textual - I would imagine something so earthshattering as revolution would have more foreshadowing and I feel that Mistborn is the series in which Brandon explores these themes and I don't think he'll do it twice. The second is my own personal beliefs derived from my life as an aspiring, professional historian and my politics about how human events work as class politics directed by ideology and culture. If there exists in Alethkar a class that is aware of its status as a class and of its class interest then we haven't seen it. Darkeyes are a legally prescribed caste, not a class which is a group of people of common economic interests. There are darkeyed merchants, darkeyed peasants and darkeyed urban labourers all of which are separate classes within the legal caste system with potentially conflicting economic interests. Certainly, we haven't seen anything that resembles a revolutionary ideology. Now I accept that Brandon may not this view of how human events work so my third reason is that by the nature of human beings certain things must be true. There will be people within the Kholinar rioters who are more radical and those who are less. Revolutions depend on instability which means that by their nature they must be themselves unstable. Small changes of momentum in unstable situations can have big consequences. This all being said your explanations fits all the facts and so is completely possible.

My thoughts are it may be Brandon did not wish to put the focus of the story on the rebellion aspect which may be why we didn't get to see its forming. I am however willing to believe it may have happened, behind closed doors, and we might get to read how it happened at a later time. Besides, I always thought the Mistborn rebellion was very simplified. I was hoping for something more... detailed here, but maybe I am just pushing for too much. Who knows? You make a valid point in stating we haven't been made aware of a culture in Alethkar which has enough awareness about class culture to want to over-throw him, but then again I would counter-argue in saying we never met rich darkeyed citizens... We know they exists, the merchants Shallan mentioned in her flashback, the darkeyed being more wealthy then most lighteyed families. They do exists, but we never got to encounter them. If such feelings nor culture exists, it ought to be through them, but them not being characters within the story makes it very difficult to evaluate. 

I agree we haven't seen anything resembling a revolutionary ideology, but I would counter-argue none of our characters were actually placed to stumble upon it. We just do not have views into a large group of society. Our characters aren't positioned to give us this view which means it may exists unknown to our knowledge by virtue of whom Brandon chose to be major protagonists. Obviously, if this is the case, then Brandon will need to introduce it in a timely and plausible manner which may or may not be possible within the narrative he has planned.

All this to say, I like to keep my options open. I am not willing to say Elhokar will be able to quell it.

3 hours ago, Dlyol said:

This is actually a hotly contested point - when did the Revolution end? In the 1970s a French government minister lost his job for declaring the Revolution was over. The official French understanding of the Revolution is not as of an event but as an ongoing process. Conversely, some historians have said the Revolution ended in 1795, four years before Napoleon or even earlier. Not that this has any bearing on the argument it's just an interesting demonstration of how complicated revolutions can get.

Bah this is true. Several of my work colleagues are French and they will have their personal tale to tell. How many republic has France gone through since the Revolution? Five so far... So yeah, this is something I definitely agree upon: it is complicated. After Napoleon, France had another king, then another emperor and the monarchist party still exist... There still are descendants from the former royalty in France. Complicated doesn't even begin to describe it. I get lost real easily when we broach the subject of French history with my colleagues: fascinating, but definitely not simple.

3 hours ago, Dlyol said:

Also, this really isn't true. Working class activism in England - The Peasant's revolt, the Levellers, Chartism didn't succeed at gaining political power until the formation of the Labour party in 1906 and indeed was often brutally suppressed. Parliament was controlled by the aristocracy right up until the end of the 19th century. The fights of British history - The Civil War and the Glorious Revolution - were partly religious and partly about ideology but they were between aristocrats who shared assumptions about economic models and how society should be organised. This points to a third option that neither of us has mentioned but is perhaps the most probable. Lots of sound and fury leading to sufficient concessions in governance to appease the rioters but that leave the fundamentals of Alethi society; feudalism, Vorinism and lighteyed privilege unchanged

Ah I actually knew this. I should have been more precise. Whereas it is true the Peasant's revolt and most of the medieval upheaval did not lead to true democracy, they did serve to reduce the totalitarian power of the king. Obviously one could argue if giving it to aristocracy was better, but at least England wasn't subject to the whims of one king, unlike France. I am a big fan of Ken Follet, he did broach the period were the Labor Party won its election. It was fascinating and my thoughts were we look so deeply into the French Revolution whenever the topic of Kholinar's rebellion is broached, but our world has had other kind of revolutions: some burned much slower but we nonetheless efficient. 

I agree about the third option: cut the pear in half. Bring about enough change to please the rebels, but not too much to repeal the nobility. I feel this may be the most plausible avenue, but really without more information on what is truly going on, we are shooting in the dark here.

[Rasha]

I could go on another tangent on the French Revolution, but I am not sure it would be enjoyed by people around here. Just tell me if you're interested, I would gladly tell more. 

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, Rasha said:

I could go on another tangent on the French Revolution, but I am not sure it would be enjoyed by people around here. Just tell me if you're interested, I would gladly tell more. 

This thread is already 23 pages long. At this point, anyone still here appreciates your dedication. 

Post away. 

[+Extesian he/him]

At the end of the preview chapter season imma see what topic each week's thread finished on. I'm being 40% morality, 30% Adolin, 20% technical/engineering and 10% realmatics n theories n Roshar n stuff. It's a fascinating study in group behavior. N stuff.

[Elena she/her]

Since we're talking about Elhokar (one of my favourite people to speculate about, in case it wasn't clear) there's something we haven't really discussed so far.

How is he going to react when he finds out that Kaladin had a hand in the botched assassination attempt he rescued him from? How is he even going to find out? I'm assuming Kaladin will tell somebody at some point, plus we haven't seen the last of Moash yet, so a reckoning is definitely coming up.

Truth be told, I think the assassination attempt was the best thing that could have happened to Elhokar; it kicked off all that introspection and gave Elhokar some more Poweful Truths to serve to all those cryptics stalking him, but it wasn't exactly Kaladin's best moment. How will Elhokar react when he finds out that the man he basically hero worships (even though he cannot yet be bothered to remember Kaladin's name) at one point wanted him dead? I can see him getting enraged. I can see him going all 'everybody wants me gone, but I'll show them' again. I can see him really taking it hard - I still maintain that Elhokar getting drunk and depressed before the attempt was less a consequence of Moash's co-conspirators criticizing him within hearshot and more about Kaladin showing nothing but contempt a few chapters earlier.

Whatever happens, I think it will further Elhokar's character development more than it will make him regress, but I really hope it could also serve as a moment of growth for Kaladin, too - I'd love it if they actually went on their Awkward Roadtrip of Heroes and Kaladin actually confessed. Better that than the truth coming out in some explosive way later on, plus Elhokar needs to do some more growing up asap before he deals with the fact that his wife is behind the mess in his city

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Less than 24 hours until chapters 13-15. 

[Nashan’Elin he/him]

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

Less than 24 hours until chapters 13-15. 

Soon... the theorizing will break out again, flying upvotes will darken the sky, and a horde of Sanderfans will over-analyze 3 chapters for a week, before moving on to their next prey. 

[Darvys]

@Elena True, i'm also far more interested in Elhokar's reaction than Dalinar's when they find out, especially since we'll also probably get to know the details of the whole Roshone incident. I figure he'll have a fit at first as he's wont to, before taking a moment and trying to understand how it came to happen.

But now that you mention Dalinar's plan to open the oathgate ... Am i the only one amazed at how retarded it is ? Did everyone forget Szeth already ? Kaladin could walk like a god through the rioting city, if his mere presence doesn't stop the chaos in a wide radius around him, you can at least be sure that no one will try to hinder him. He doesn't need a team, he doesn't even need to sneak in, he could walk right to the temple, blow the door open if he has to, and activate the device in less than a minute. 

Well, now i'm going to go wait patiently for tomorrow's fix, see you all then.

[hypatia she/her]

@Elena @Darvys

I also positivly surprised about this Elhokar and I think third time is catchy time and Kaladin will train him as a leader.

Next I'm looking what he will decide as the team for this mission - the squires from Bridge 4 would be my guess, because they are more usefull with Kaladin around.

Adolin - I would like to see the dynamics with princeling/kingling and bridgboy aka the hero.

Rlain - perhaps they have to communicate with the 'whatever Parshmen'.

And perhaps, yes there can be time to came in the open - Elhokar with Roshone, Kaladin and his role in the assassination attempt and Adolin with Sadeas.

I'm all for the next generation - and if Mr Sanderson will make me espacially happy he will send Jasnah to Kholinar (with Hoid).

 

[Rasha]

What will follow is not the objective truth, for I will not pretend to be an historian and I don't possess the self discipline to make an historical account of these time. I took the time to research some parts that were dusty in my memory as to be sure not to crem dung you. Among French historian, the first French Revolution is still a subject open to debate, in which it morality is still debated. According to some historians, Robespierre is a bloodthirsty tyrant, to others he is one of the few man of virtue that participated in the Revolution. Was the French Revolution the spark that ushered a new age of progressism in Europe, or was it a bloodbath in which innocents were slaughtered ? Gather close, friends for these questions will drive us as the tale unfold.

 

 

1789 - 1791: Creation of the National Assembly and its Constitution.

 

We are in May 1789. Due to a serie of economic decision made by Louis XVI, who implemented the deregulation of the grain market, and the necessity of implementing new taxes, due to the States increasing deficit, the popularity of the government is at the bottom of the abyss. To solve this situation, Louis XVI decide to invoke the General State Assembly to create new taxes and tolls and reform those already existing. The General State Assembly is constitued of 3 "parties" : the Nobles, the Clergy, and the Third State (or Tiers Etat, could not find a better translation), aka everything that is neither a member of the clergy or the nobility.

At the time, the Third State pay taxes to both the clergy and to the nobility. The clergy is most often exempted of taxes, and the nobility paye taxes to the King. The Votations in the General State Assembly are similar to the One Man, One Vote in Ankh Morpohk: each assembly gets one vote, and the majority wins the decision. The Clergy and the Nobility, being bound in interests (even more when the subject is taxation) you can imagine that the results of votation are seldom favorable to the Third State.

Seing that their demands are clearly not heard the deputy ask that the votes are counted by head, and not by Order. Refusing to comply, the King order the evacuation of the room in which the Assembly takes place. On June the 17th, the deputies of the Third State declare themselves National Assembly. On the 20th, the Tennis Courd Oath (named because so bcause the Third State had been releguated into a Tennis room) is given, declaring that the assembly will not be dissolved until a Constitution is drafted. On the 23th, the King himself visit them to conceide some fiscal points on the condition that the Assembly be dissolved. To which Mirabeau replies: "We are here by the will of the people, and we shall retire only by force".

Finally, on the 27th June, the King dissolve the three Orders (Nobility, Clergy and Third State) and accept the Assembly in charge of creating the Constitution. This is important to note that at this point the Revolution is not yet started as such. This is only the transition from an absolute Monarchy to a Constitutional Monarchy. Until 1792, the Revolution is built on the idea to destroy absolutism without destroying the State, or the King. Creating check and balance to the absolute power of the nobility is so far the main goal.

 

While the creation of a new Assembly takes place in Versailles, all is not well in the kingdom of France. On the 13th of July, in Paris a rumor spreads like plague: royal troops are coming to arrest the deputies. And suspiciously, corps of royal troops are Stationed on the Champs de Mars, and on several gates of Paris. A comity is created to react to the threat: the insurectionnal municipality. On the morning of the 14th of July, riots start, and rioters go to the Invalides, looking for weapons. Here, they would seize 28000 rifles and 200 cannons. They have the weapons, but they are lacking the powder to use them. The rioter decide then to go to the Bastille, where powder is stored. The Bastille is manned by 82 veteran soldiers called invalids, and by 32 Swiss soldiers. THe garnison commander is the Marquis de Launey, a noble without military experience. Trying to buy time, he vow not to fire on the offenders, as long as they do not try to enter. Alas, an assault is mounted, and de Launey panicks, ordering to fire causing more than a haudred casualties among the assaillants.

Everything changes when two regiments of French guards. These soldiers, tasked to protect the peace in the city decide to side with the people. The Bastille is assaulted. The swiss guard had the time to ditch their uniforms and therefore blended into the popluace easily. The 82 guards were lynched by the mob, and the Marquis (who tried to sucide before getting taken but failed) was beheaded by a butcher and his head spiked. The Bastille is so freed. It was the symbol of the King's power and of an itransigeant absolutism. inside, seven prisonners are found. Their crimes amount to thievery, counterfeit, and sexual delinquancy.

Surprised by the people's violence, the King decide then to not dissolve the popular Assembly. And thus the Revolution went on. The 4th August 1789, the end of privileges and the end of the feodal sytem are ratified by the National Assembly and the King. On the 26th the declaration of human and citizen right is ratified. You probably heard of it, it starts as : " Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good.". It takes it roots in the theories developped by Jean Jacques Rousseau, a Swiss/French Philosopher who created the notion of Social Contract (Social_contract ). Those right are mean to be taken as natural laws and to remain true in every country, independantly of the government and laws in place. According to the text, the first mission fo the State is to assure that these right remain unviolated. It is good to note that despite the adhesion to these laws, slavery would not be abolished until 1794 (to be reinstated by Napoleon in 1802 and abolished definitely in 1848. If you want to know more about that read Victor Hugo, as he was a huge militent for the abolition of slavery, and was active in the government in 1848) and would not stop colonialism to happen. The text also define the basis of being a citizen and establishes a difference between an active and passive citizen. Active citizenship was granted to men who were French, at least 25 years old, paid taxes equal to three days work, and could not be defined as servants. This meant that at the time of the Declaration only male property owners held these rights. It was believed by the assembly that only those who held tangilbe interests in the nation could make informed decision. This model is largely based on the model developped in Athens, where only the active citizens had a say in the governance of the cities as such, slaves, womens were passive citizens, in that they had a status far above filthy foreigners, but were not granted the privileges and duties of active citizenship. The clergy is also assigned to serve the State. This created a schism between the refractory priests (who refused to swear) and the juring priests. The Refractory priests would later have a huge influence on the French Revolution, as they ignited the Vendee Wars and other counter revolutionnary movements.

 

Unknown to the public eye, since the 5 October 1789, the King is brewing a project to exile himself in a neighbouring country to organize a reconquest of his throne. Constantly under guard of La Fayette (Yes, the same), he couldn't find the well placed moment to spring his plan to execution. Finally, the 20 and 21th June 1791, in what is called the Varennes flight, the royal familly tries to flee, assuming false identities with false identification papers, and Louis XVI leaves behind a political manifesto. La Fayette dispatches troops in every direction to find where the King could have disapeared, and decide to censure the manifesto and not publish it.

Mirabeau and the members of the Society of the friends of the Convention (which are in charge of the whole mess at this point) decide, as to quell the panic that would inevitabily rise at the news, to masquarade the flight as an abduction. The Varennes flight and the position adpoted by diferant factions will later cause the schisms between the factions pushing for a Constitutional Monarchy  and the Mountain (named so because they sitted on the higher seats of the National Assembly) who want to pursue to their full extent the Revolutionnary Ideals. The King is finally caught on the 21th, and assigned to residence. It was later revelled that the King conspired from 1789 to 1792 with foreign power to bring back an absolute monarchy in France.

 

1791 - 1793: Start of the Coalition Wars, and the fall of the Constitutional Monarchy

In September 1791 a coalition of Kings and Emperors is formed across Europe, afraid to see the Revolution spread to their lands. In reaction, the different political parties adopt different reactions. The Mountain (Robespierre, Danton, Marat...) pushed for peace, to let the chance to grow a strong State to be able to apply the ideals of the Revolution fully in France while the Jacobins pushed for war, to export the Revolutionnary ideals in Europe. Feeling the war is on the brink, in April 1792, France declare war on Austria. Prussia rallies Austria and they immediatly proceed to invade France together, to be rebuffed at Valmy. Other European powers came to play, deciding to crush this Revolution in blood, to make an exemple of it so that it would not spread. The Kingdom of great Britain assiged the city of Toulon, and fomented local peasant and clergy revolts loyal to Louis XVI. The 22th September 1792, the Republic is proclaimed. Accused of treason and collusion with foreign powoers, Louis XVI is judged guilty and sentenced to be guillotined the 21th January 1793.

Horrified by the King's execution, Great Britain, Spain, Holland, Austria and Prussia ally together to crush the Revolution in blood. At the same time, the Vendee War was starting. Refractory priests ignited a part of France, championing for a return to monarchy, and a Clergy assermented to the Pope rather than to the State. They are financed and backed by monarchists, parts of the old army, counter-revolutionaries and foreign interests. Foreign agents are plotting mayhem on behalf of the Kings. The economical situation is catastrophic as profiteers and speculation on scarce ressources are uncontrolled. Corruption runs rampant as order is fragile. Ancient Noble Officers desert to the foreign coalition as they are more aligned with their ideology. As the Revolution was on the brink of collapse, on the verge of behing washed in Revolutionnary blood, exceptionnal mesures had to be taken:

-The conscription of 300.000 voluntaries into the Republic armies.

- The comittee of Public Safety is created. Led by the Mountain, and primarily by Robespierre, Danton, and Saint Just, it was given supervisary powers over military, judicial, and legislative efforts to deal with the ennemies of the Republic, intern of extern. Be it military threats, ideological or economical threats. It is worth remarking that before 1791, Robespierre (and other members of the Mountain) were adamently opposed to death penalty. And yet. What values are personnal opinions when the Nation herself is in danger ? Peronnal beliefs are the least that the members of the Comittee would grow to forsake.

 

1793 - 1794 : The Comittee of Public Safety, the Terror, and the Vendee Wars.

"The first of all Laws is the preservation of the Republic. "

- Saint Just.

“Ask Robespierre. Ask the man with the conscience which is more important, your friend or your country— ask him how he weighs an individual in the scheme of things. Ask him which comes first, his old pals or his new principles. You ask him, Camille.”
-Hillary Mantel

This is the part where people are the most opiniated about. Some consider the Vendee Wars to be a génocide against the vendeen, while forgetting that atrocities and senseless killing were comitted on both sides. Both side were pushed to fanaticism by circumstances: Vendeen were (mostly) the only French willing to counter the revolution, which led them to desperation. The Revolutionnary forces faced stacked odds on multiple fronts. No side took the time to take prisonners, every opponant was cut down when the opportunity arose. Zealots, weither religious or revolutionary zealots commited atrocities against civilians or soldiers on a scale without precedent. People often talk about the Terror as the bloodiest part of the Revolution, but they couldn't be more wrong. The bloodiest part was in the battlefields, and in the Vendee Wars, we would be hard pressed to know which side was bloodiest. The Vendee uprising was quelled, but at a very high cost for the Revolutionnaries. It took more than 12 battles to settle the matter, and not every one of them was a Revolutionnary victory.

As for the comittee,the comittee itself debates to know which decision to take. While the comittee is most heavily influenced by Robespierre, Danton, and St-Just it is also conprised of a myriad of factions. Some call for more extremist measure, other for more conservatory measrues. One of it's first act was the arrestation and execution of all the Girondins, given their nature to resist the spiralling of the Revolution. Next on the table were the Hébertists and the Dantonists. The Hébertists were a group known for their anti-religious zeal, extremist demands, and their propencity to erupt into violent insurections. Deemed too dangerous, they were arrested, judged and condemned. Camille Desmoulins, originaly writing a newspaper supporting the comittee, began to write to denounce it. External criticism of the comittee being to close to sedition, Camille Desmoulins, close friend of Robespierre was guillotined.

Exectuion were not the sole privilege of the comittee. The Ventose Decree (named so because it was passed on the revolutionnary month of Ventôse) confiscated all goods of the exiles of the revolution (typically nobles fleeing) to distribute them among the most needy. It also passed the Law or 22 Prairial, which accelerated the rate at which criminals were processed by the Revolutionary Tribunal, hich led to 5 executions a day in Germinal (Revolutionary month) to 17 in Prairial (next month) to 26 in Messidor. This is the period known as the Great Terror. In 5 months, the Tribunal sentenced 2156 people to death, and acquitted 684 people of any wrongdoing. While this is far from perfect, and there are without doubt many innocents guillotined during the Terror, going before the Revolutionary Tribunal was not an automatic death sentence.

Feeling unsecure and threatened by Robespierre, Joseph Fouché and Tallien started to organize what would be named the Thermydorian Reaction. The fall of Robespierre was organized a combination of those wanting more power for the comittee (that was previously reigned in by Robespierre), and the moderates that completely opposed the revolutionnary governement. Robespierre was arrested, and was guillotined the same day, on the 28th of July 1794 (or Thermydore, in Revolutionnary calendar). However, the Terror did not stop with Robespierre's death as all of its collaborators were excecuted. The people who plotted the fall of Robespierre were later called the Thermydoriens, and they are mostly the cause for Robespierre's réputation as a bloodthirsty tyrant, eriged in sole dictator during the Terror. Some of these people (such as Joseph Fouché) were mostly motivated by greed and ambition. During the Directory, Fouché concentred himself on position that would see his wealth rise. He had a hand in Napoléon's coup that suppressed the Directory, which allowed him to work in Napoléon's government, he was notabely charged to quell conspiracies against Napoléon, which he was very proefficient at, and charged with conscription. In 1814, feeling the wind turning, he conspired against Napoléon with the foreign coalition. Initially to form a Republic with him as head of the state, then seeing it was impossible, he helped restore the monarchy. Which is kind of funny, knowing he voted in favor of the execution of Louis XIV in 1793. He was then both a regicide, and a member of the ultra royalist party that instaured the Restauration.

 

1795 - 1799 The Directory, or the Fall of the Roman Republic yet again, starring Napoléon Bonaparte in the role of Julius Caesar.

The Directory was formed, and drafted a new Constitution, which goal was to dilute the power at the head of the State. For that purpose, 5 consuls were delected by deputies (and not by the citizens, active or not) which were renewed at the rate of one member per year. Each member would rule for three months, during which he had access to the seals officitating him as head of the State. The result of this form of governement was one of the more corrupted, criminal and incompetent governement France ever had. It would only be surpassed by the Vichy governement in the magnitude of its failing. As influence was diluted, it was not rare to have consuls or deputies exchanging, bribing or selling fervors, which would result as you imagine as a golden opportunity for a mafia to to develop. Which it kind of did. Economic regulation were non existant, which allowed the thriving of war profiteers and unscrupulous speculators. Highway banditry became common, which further hurted the economy. Some firms contracted by the state simply pocketed the money and never fulfilled their part of the barguain, without repercussions. Food shortage were so current that the government tried to give ration of rice instead of bread, but most people didn't have the firewood necessary to cook it.The intransigency of Robespierre and the Pubic Safety Comittee let place to a shitshow of privileges, back room arrangements, where important and key positions in the State could simply be bought.

Nevertheless, the Directory defused several conspiracies against him, one led by Joseph Baboeuf. Joseph baboeuf was kind of Karl Marx, before Karl Marx, except he didn't bother doing any of the theorizing. He proned, in his newspaper (the People's Newspaper) that the people should auto gouvern themselves. But recognizing that the people were not yet ready to do so, he offered himself as a benevolent dictator until the mass were educated and an "anarchist" governement was put in place.

The other was more sublte. As royalist deputees were not allowed to siege openly, they wore discreet articles of black clothing, to mourn the execution of Louis XIV. In 1797, the elections were a success for the royalists. Those royalists were divided between Constitutionnal Monarchists and Absolutists. They were also pushing for fiscal policies and more tolerant policies concerning the clergy. Many priests refused to give their oath to the State before and were therefore exiled. They profited of the occasion to come back quietly. Nobles exiles were also starting to come back quietly. The absolutists longued to return Louis XVIII, in exile in Germany to his throne, which would happen eventually in 1815 with the help of Joseph Fouché. Judging their numbers of deputy suffisent to give them cause, they tried a military coup which was boodily repressed.

 

During this time the Coalition Wars were not finished. A young Napoleon Bonapart profited of the glory and credi he earned during the first and second coalition war to return to Paris in 1799 to overthrow the Directory and found the Consulate. The Consulate had much to do to mend the damages done by the Directory. For example, to solve the problem of highway robbery, the Consulate had to create special tribunals, where justice was even swifter and more severe than in the Terror tribunals. Reasserting the sovereigntey of the State so it can assume the regalian function is no easy thing, when the sovereignety has been sold to the highest bidder for 5 years straight.

 

There would be seven coalitions wars until 1815, which is the date of Waterloo, the ultimate defeat of the Emperor Napoléon by the seventh Coalition. After which, the Restauration takes place and Louis XVIII takes the throne of France. The coalitions would have finally reached their goal. But the monarchy restaured was less than absolute, and no King after Louis XVI had an easy reign. More often than not, their reign would end under the assault of bricks and blood, for the Revolution was not forgotten.

 

Bonus:

The first and second Coalition wars fought by Napoleon Bonaparte, explained with maps:

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/world-history/1600s-1800s/napoleon-bonaparte/v/napoleon-and-the-wars-of-the-first-and-second-coalitions

 

 

Hope it pleased you all. I honestly should read to see the mess of grammatical errors I made, but I don't have the faith for it. I hope I have redacted it in a way funnier to read than just a dry accounting.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Rasha

[Calderis he/him]

@Rasha wow. That was far more detailed than I expected on a forum post.

Let's wage a coalition war on ignorance. 

[OathKeeper]

6 hours ago, Elena said:

Since we're talking about Elhokar (one of my favourite people to speculate about, in case it wasn't clear) there's something we haven't really discussed so far.

How is he going to react when he finds out that Kaladin had a hand in the botched assassination attempt he rescued him from? How is he even going to find out? I'm assuming Kaladin will tell somebody at some point, plus we haven't seen the last of Moash yet, so a reckoning is definitely coming up.

Truth be told, I think the assassination attempt was the best thing that could have happened to Elhokar; it kicked off all that introspection and gave Elhokar some more Poweful Truths to serve to all those cryptics stalking him, but it wasn't exactly Kaladin's best moment. How will Elhokar react when he finds out that the man he basically hero worships (even though he cannot yet be bothered to remember Kaladin's name) at one point wanted him dead? I can see him getting enraged. I can see him going all 'everybody wants me gone, but I'll show them' again. I can see him really taking it hard - I still maintain that Elhokar getting drunk and depressed before the attempt was less a consequence of Moash's co-conspirators criticizing him within hearshot and more about Kaladin showing nothing but contempt a few chapters earlier.

Whatever happens, I think it will further Elhokar's character development more than it will make him regress, but I really hope it could also serve as a moment of growth for Kaladin, too - I'd love it if they actually went on their Awkward Roadtrip of Heroes and Kaladin actually confessed. Better that than the truth coming out in some explosive way later on, plus Elhokar needs to do some more growing up asap before he deals with the fact that his wife is behind the mess in his city

Has anybody here seen Galavant season 2? Because that is exactly how the Elokhar/Kaladin story should go (But less ridiculous).

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Rasha said:

I could go on another tangent on the French Revolution, but I am not sure it would be enjoyed by people around here. Just tell me if you're interested, I would gladly tell more. 

I'd love to hear it. Ah I see you posted it. Will read it with interest. I have read it. Amazing. I will need to read it again later when I am more concentrated.

9 hours ago, Elena said:

Since we're talking about Elhokar (one of my favourite people to speculate about, in case it wasn't clear) there's something we haven't really discussed so far.

How is he going to react when he finds out that Kaladin had a hand in the botched assassination attempt he rescued him from? How is he even going to find out? I'm assuming Kaladin will tell somebody at some point, plus we haven't seen the last of Moash yet, so a reckoning is definitely coming up.

Truth be told, I think the assassination attempt was the best thing that could have happened to Elhokar; it kicked off all that introspection and gave Elhokar some more Poweful Truths to serve to all those cryptics stalking him, but it wasn't exactly Kaladin's best moment. How will Elhokar react when he finds out that the man he basically hero worships (even though he cannot yet be bothered to remember Kaladin's name) at one point wanted him dead? I can see him getting enraged. I can see him going all 'everybody wants me gone, but I'll show them' again. I can see him really taking it hard - I still maintain that Elhokar getting drunk and depressed before the attempt was less a consequence of Moash's co-conspirators criticizing him within hearshot and more about Kaladin showing nothing but contempt a few chapters earlier.

Whatever happens, I think it will further Elhokar's character development more than it will make him regress, but I really hope it could also serve as a moment of growth for Kaladin, too - I'd love it if they actually went on their Awkward Roadtrip of Heroes and Kaladin actually confessed. Better that than the truth coming out in some explosive way later on, plus Elhokar needs to do some more growing up asap before he deals with the fact that his wife is behind the mess in his city

I would personally prefer if Elhokar's character was used as a moment of growth for Dalinar. I really wish for Dalinar's leniency towards Elhokar to have consequences because I do read it as a flaw within his character. It does not require Elhokar to go evil, but it would need him having goals which do not directly align with Dalinar. What it means for Elhokar's character, I cannot say but I'd be disappointed if Dalinar's blind spot wasn't further explored or if it turns out having no consequences within the narrative.

I'll leave the author jungle with the details but I would prefer it to Elhokar becoming a hero.

Another tangent I'd love to read would be Kaladin being forced to choose not to protect Elhokar to the benefit of other people needing it more than him or perhaps deserving it more. I feel he ought to be conflicted in being forced to fight onto the lighteyed side of the rebellion in a context where the lighteyes are within the wrong. I'd love to see the "so long as it is right" being put into application and have Kaladin oppose Elhokar because his actions are forcing him to contradict his oaths and his mission.

I am more interested in Dalinar's reaction when he finds out about Kaladin (because he put blind trust into Kaladin) than Elhokar. Elhokar's hero worships has last for only a few days. If we are to explore the thematic of worshiping someone, I'd rather we looked at from the Adolin angle towards Dalinar.

All in all, I would prefer if the Elhokar's story arc were closely tied to Dalinar's because I feel the consequences to Dalinar's character are more interesting to read than the consequences onto Elhokar. Of course, everyone's millage may vary.

[Dlyol]

@Rasha A wonderful summary - although didn't Le levée en masse gain 800,000 volunteers? The only thing I would of added are the various trolling takes historians have on the Revolution including my favourite which is that it actually began in 1787 when Prussia invaded the Dutch Republic (for which we can thank T.H. Blanning). Worth emphasising as well that the sale of church property to solve the financial crisis of the French state created that distinctively French class of medium sized farmers who formed the backbone of every French regime from Napoleon to the end of the Third Republic and that the culture war created by the Civil Constitution of the Clergy has divided France ever since.

[flying_shadow she/her]

At this point, I really want for something we haven't predicted to happen. Or have we already predicted every way this could go?

Just 13.5 hours until the next chapters. Tomorrow is too far away!

[Varenus]

19 minutes ago, Kalinovsky said:

At this point, I really want for something we haven't predicted to happen. Or have we already predicted every way this could go?

Just 13.5 hours until the next chapters. Tomorrow is too far away!

In the first paragraph of the next chapter Dalinar forms the Stormfather into a shardblade, instantly reforming the shard Honor, which he promptly picks up, teleports to Braize, and one-shots Odium and his champion(who turned out to be stick).

Okay, now we have predicted every possible outcome.

[Steeldancer he/him]

I'm ready to speed read the next 3 chapters like a pro

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

11 hours ago, Elena said:

Whatever happens, I think it will further Elhokar's character development more than it will make him regress, but I really hope it could also serve as a moment of growth for Kaladin, too - I'd love it if they actually went on their Awkward Roadtrip of Heroes and Kaladin actually confessed. Better that than the truth coming out in some explosive way later on, plus Elhokar needs to do some more growing up asap before he deals with the fact that his wife is behind the mess in his city

I will say this. I am not so enlightened that I would ever forgive somebody who conspired with my enemies to murder me, that's for sure. And I personally would not judge Elhokar as a character if he wasn't forgiving about that either. I think it would be very reasonable if Elhokar hated Kaladin as a result, felt betrayed, felt like a fool for ever admiring him, and began to get paranoid again.

And it just so happens that I'm re-reading WoR (for only the second time) now, and I got to the point recently where Dalinar decides that the king's guard can't be trusted, and puts Kaladin in charge, and those that Kaladin selects, to keep the king safe. Knowing that Kaladin and his buddy Moash were conspiring to murder Elhokar just weeks after that point, it would be very reasonable for Elhokar to wonder anew about Dalinar's loyalties.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kalinovsky said:

At this point, I really want for something we haven't predicted to happen. Or have we already predicted every way this could go?

Just 13.5 hours until the next chapters. Tomorrow is too far away!

We never predicted the copycat murdering story arc. Never.

[JoyBlu she/her]

Here are some of the responses I had the time to respond too  I didn't make it through the entire thread this week   This is a huge time commitment to keep up with -- but one that I'm enjoying - so keep the comments coming  sorry if some of these have already been hashed out  

 

 

 

On 9/19/2017 at 8:15 AM, PunSpren said:

This conflict with the voidbringers are going to be a lot more complicated than anyone thought! Sailing, stealing grain, negotiating! it almost seems like the parshmen of each region are collecting the attributes of that region. Farmlands parshmen steal grain, sea based parshmen take ships, parshmen near Azir negotiate. ...... What other notable trades/exports could be important to them?

 

I did not notice that but I love that you pointed that out. I'll be watching. We know that "Unite Them" probably means unite all the inhabitants of the planet so eventually these skill sets will be in "everyone's" interests and eventual compliment those they are opposing now  

 

 

On 9/19/2017 at 8:30 AM, king of nowhere said:

Hey, I was forgetting the most important part: the dalinar flashback doesn't fit with what we knew from other released material. Namely, we were told that he got his plate from marriage, while it is clearly not the case. And we still haven't seen what caused the ardent to quit the army. Maybe we'll be shown later in the book?

I mean, dalinar killed a children, but he was a children armed with a shardblade and determined to use it. and dalinar was without gauntlets and had both hands wounded, so grabbing the sword and disarming the child without hurting him was not possible. I doubt a hardened soldier would have been particularly disturbed by that. And anyway, that trap to collapse dalinar into the canyon smashed several homes, it certainly killed a lot of people too.

 

Dalinar totally could have disarmed the child without hurting him   The child was not bonded to the sword yet  all he had to do was drop it or distract him somehow  or talk him into giving it to him  the man the sword was bonded to was dead  

 

On 9/19/2017 at 8:33 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Oh, two more things:

1. What is up with the Shin and their dislike of fabrials?

2. Anyone else who thinks that Vstim might be Navanis Thaylen contact? That could introduce Rysn and the Larkin to Team Urithiru.

 

Well the shin believe the stones and the storm lights are sacred. They must understand the Spren behind the fabrials on a different level. They most likely don't feel comfortable catching and enslaving the Spren. I'm assuming that just as water and stone are represented differently in the cognitive realm that grass is too. And the shin understand that somehow. 

On 9/19/2017 at 8:40 AM, king of nowhere said:

they consider stormlight too holy to use.  szeth remarks how it shouldn't be used for illumination

I don't know where he found a radiant, if indeed he found one, but it is not that hard to find some radiants if you have a kingdom worth of people and know where to look.

Alternatively, he may have had one for longer than we assume; whoever was sent to take control of szeth disappeared after soulcasting a wall to smoke, and that means either T has secretly a soulcaster, or he has secretly a radiant.

I forgot about that guy. Good reminder!

On 9/19/2017 at 8:46 AM, yulerule said:

That was my thought also!

So when Dalinar was getting into contact with other leaders, he was talking about who was in the room with him, and there roles. I didn't even think about Elokhar. Only when he opened the door, and Elokhar was mentioned in text I had a Oh, god! Moment. All that negation, with the King not even in the room, and I (the reader) didn't even notice.

Oh Elokhar. And I thought he wasn't there because he wasn't a KR or assisting one. 

On 9/19/2017 at 9:30 AM, Stark said:

No - Dalinar already named Aladar as Highprince of Information. 

 

Adolin will either get Highprince of War, or Highprince of Fashion.  It could really go either way...

Highprince of Fashion!  Adolin will forever be known that to me  thank you dear @Stark

 

On 9/19/2017 at 9:32 AM, dgenio8 said:

I haven't read most of the comments, but I want to add my theory on Mr T's radiant. What if he has just an honorblade? It would allow the person to perform Surgebinding...

 

 

Hmmmmm. Then anyone could use the honor blade. Very very interesting idea. 

On 9/19/2017 at 9:40 AM, Musica said:

Holy storms. These chapters just keep getting better and better!

First of all- Shardplates are made up from child-spren of the Radiants' spren!! How amazing is that?? Do you think those 'children' are other, simpler spren being bonded/invested/influenced by the Nahel-bonded spren, or newly-formed ones? Maybe small, scattered, formless parts left of Honor given shape by the spren?

 

Sylblade! I seriously got the warm and fuzzies all while reading the Kaladin chapter. I adore his relationship with Syl:) 

Am I the only one, though, who felt like Syl sounded very similar to Shallan in their banter?

I guess we now know how the Tarah flashbacks will come about. Kal dealing with a new/past relationship  (or even just the possibility or concept) will be part of his arc and will possibly culimate in the forming of his Plate. 

 

Ren and Adolin were so adorable! We finally see Renarin using some of his abilities. I really want to lead more of Glys. 

 

Nobody wants to play nice with Dalinar. I already foresee frustration for me in that arc. I despise the whole miscommunication/deception thing that seems to be forming.. not to mention Mr.T, who will probably do anything he can to sabotage Dalinar's efforts..Almighty, please let someone find him out FAST.

And what's up with negotiating with the Parshendi? And what are they doing in general? I theorized that maybe they still resist Odium's influence and choosing not to attack (and Kal's interaction with them will be what makes him question the war against them), but maybe they are just preparing for the Boss Battle.

 

November is so far away...

Ahhh Tarah. I want a Tarah flashback. 

On 9/19/2017 at 11:28 AM, the_archduke said:

According to the Ars Arcanum, heliodor is associated with soulcasting meat and flesh.  Gumfrems must have heliodor gemhearts.

From the same source, helidor is associated with Ishar... we don't know where he is yet.  Ishar = a random gumfrem in the field Kaladin passed confirmed!

Thank you, thank you, thank you. im not sure I would have ever picked up on that but I'm looking at the Ars Arcanum differently now. I need a bookmark made out of that! 

 

On 9/19/2017 at 0:27 PM, Daishi5 said:

The Parshmen are not all changing into stormform, but it seems there is a variety.  

I think the Everstorm broke whatever bond they used in the past to enslave the Parshmen and allowed the Parshmen to bond spren as normal.  I suspect Odium is probably going to drum up a normal war to get both sides to hate each other, then both sides are on his side.  Dalinar doesn't need to unite the kingdoms, he needs to unite the humans and the Parshendi.

Yup, yup, yup. UNITE THEM

On 9/19/2017 at 1:21 PM, Elena said:

Guys one thing... I know we all keep forgetting about it, but what about Elhokar's son? His infant son? Safe, or is he a goner? What the hell is happening in Kholinar, I need to know yesterday.

I want to know about out his son and any other Kohler Relatives.  Are there more brothers, uncles, cousins? It seems like I should know more about the Kholin Family tree  

 

 

On 9/19/2017 at 2:28 PM, Calderis said:

I'm leaning towards no, specifically because this is a Sanderson book. 

This is already pretty dark for him.

 Have you read Elantris? There is that one scene that is so dark that I won't let my kids give that book away for gifts/presents.  And I'm still hesitant to let my tween daughter read it  I've deflected her from it several times but I have a rule that my kids can read any book on my bookshelf and she will read it soon and my older kids have read it, but it still gives me nightmares sometimes.  

 

On 9/19/2017 at 2:48 PM, Asrael said:

I fully believe we will be seeing the "death" of this child in the future:
 

So clearly something happened at the Rift that was SO horrible that this soldier couldn't handle it. You don't build up that kind of drama to just answer it two chapters later. I suspect that we will be seeing more from Rathalas.

And not only more from that invasion, but perhaps another event that happened there many years apart. 

[Rasha]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Rasha wow. That was far more detailed than I expected on a forum post.

Let's wage a coalition war on ignorance. 

I had time on my hands, decided to do it correctly rather than do a botched attempt

 

7 hours ago, Dlyol said:

@Rasha A wonderful summary - although didn't Le levée en masse gain 800,000 volunteers? The only thing I would of added are the various trolling takes historians have on the Revolution including my favourite which is that it actually began in 1787 when Prussia invaded the Dutch Republic (for which we can thank T.H. Blanning). Worth emphasising as well that the sale of church property to solve the financial crisis of the French state created that distinctively French class of medium sized farmers who formed the backbone of every French regime from Napoleon to the end of the Third Republic and that the culture war created by the Civil Constitution of the Clergy has divided France ever since.

Thanks! For the conscription I only put the number of conscripts at the creation of the committee, it is true that the final number of conscripts is far higher in total. 

As for the trolling by historians, I don't know enough on the subject (I am not one, I am just an engineering student with a mild fascination for the topic). Besides, the Revolution is a serious business in France, so I am not sure many French historians risk their hides by doing a trolling take on it  

But I feel that you have a whole lot of interesting things on the subject, so feel free to elaborate

And yes, religion is a specialty in France. Laïcité was a principle slowly built, as a result of the continuous battle between the clergy (and its followers) and the anti-clerical crowds. It had a lot of unforeseen consequences. The culmination of that was the 1905 law of separation on of Church and State. 

[Elena she/her]

1 hour ago, JoyBlu said:

I want to know about out his son and any other Kohler Relatives.  Are there more brothers, uncles, cousins? It seems like I should know more about the Kholin Family tree 

As per WOB there aren't many left - Dalinar and Gavilar were from a minor branch of the house, and they got rid of most of them so that Gavilar could become Highprince.

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

2 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

 Have you read Elantris? There is that one scene that is so dark that I won't let my kids give that book away for gifts/presents.  And I'm still hesitant to let my tween daughter read it  I've deflected her from it several times but I have a rule that my kids can read any book on my bookshelf and she will read it soon and my older kids have read it, but it still gives me nightmares sometimes.  

Which scene is this? I read Elantris, but I can't recall anything that horrible.

[retrorocket1]

^ probably is reffering to the scene with the king covered in his "sacrifice".

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I've skipped some posts, will reread later in more detail if have time.

On Shardplate stormlight during the chamsfiend hunt: I was under the impression it was Graves and company. Dalinar says the balcony is the same modus operandi, make it look like an accident or blame someone else. Graves also says he was trying to make the assasination less obvious, but he saw it was a mistake and had to do it openly.

On Kholinar: Pai started the revolution condemning the queen, the lighteyes, and the basic Vorin ideals. Not sure if the king was included, but the lighteyes surely were. 

Lastly, Calderis and Extesian, sorry, I upvoted you, then remembered it was release day and took them back as I'm 100% sure I'll need them in a few hours ^^. Will come back to return them if I rememeber in a couple of days.

Edited September 26, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard