Varenus

A little off topic, but I’d like to point out that this mission was the focus of Dalinar’s hopes at retaking Alethkar. Winning this round earned Odium control over Dalina’s homeland(not to mention Jezrien’s hiding spot), nullified some of the Radians’ advantage in deactivating an Oathgate, and firmly planted Moash in Odium’s camp(who later killed said Herald). I would hardly say that Odium got nothing for his trouble, but you do have a point in that it could have been much worse. Back on topic, I wonder how Sja-anat’s treachery plays into your theory. She was essential in the escape of the remaining members of the mission and she does have a connection to Renarin. I do think that you are correct, that there is something going on beneath the surface.

This is from the coppermind page on the Shards. Under the category titled Magic Generation. I hope this formats correctly as I am on mobile. The wiki interprets the WoB you guys discussed like this: The other WoB mentioned here is: So, I would think that there is something inherent to the planet/world that shapes how the Shards’ interact with it and how magic systems form. Shards choose to invest in a planet. The Shard’s Intent decides how people access that power. The planet itself determines how that power is made manifest. Note that quote mentions genetics, so I imagine that people might be counted as part of the planet, so you are certainly correct in thinking that people’s thoughts and spiritwebs contribute to how a magic system is formed. Consider the planet to be the second filter by which the Shard’s Investiture is molded into a full magic system. The first filter is, of course, the intent of the Shard. Ruin and Preservation had an advantage in that they could alter the second filter. Honor and Cultivation must have had a harder time because it was not their planet. To think of a reason to justify this, consider that: 1) Remember, in the Cosmere, investiture, matter, and energy are interchangeable. Odium is unable to change text in the same way Ruin did on his planet. This is because Odium did not make Roshar and is unable to manipulate its matter. Odium’s inability to change text implies that when investiture is converted into matter, it remembers which shard it belongs to. 2) Roshar was made of Adonalsium’s investiture and upon his shattering all investiture already in the Cosmere was assigned to a Shard(there is a WoB that says this). Combining these facts, Roshar and all other Shard Worlds made by Ado must now be made of a jumble of all 16 shard’s essences. Which means that Shards that choose to settle on those planets must, by necessity, be limited in their ability to manipulate the planet as they are unable to change other Shards’ Investiture. By extension, the Shard loses some control over their magic system because they cannot change the second filter by which their investiture it turned into a magic system. To borrow the analogy of building a house, My interpretation is this: You are a billionaire who wants to renovate a grand and ancient library. You supply the money(the Shard’s Investiture). You hire an architect to turn your vision of the new library into something beautiful(the Shard’s intent). Then you hire an engineer to make sure the work is done correctly(the Shard World). Lastly, you need permission from the library’s owner to make the changes(not the shard’s own shard world). The only problem is that the architect had a separate idea of how the building should look, the engineer was physically incapable of making all the changes to the building that you wanted, and the owner forbade them form making changes to certain parts of the building. When they finally get finished the building bares little resemblance to your vision.

The eternal Stick knows best. If Mistborn: Secret History is anything to go by, there does seem to be at least one qualification that needs to be met. That being said, I think Taln does meet that requirement for both Honor and Odium. Besides, Taln is just great.

@Leyrann No, Odium says in that passage that he can't be freed on accident. The person must say the words with the intent of freeing Odium for it to work. I'll post the full quote when I have the time. Also, which do you think is easier, dealing with Cultivation from Braize with who knows what restrictions or dealing with her while on Roshar and free? Perhapse I should clarify, when I say free I mean not bound by Honor and Culivation's rules. Not free as in get up and leave the planet/system. So, I agree that he has unfinished business on Roshar, but that is more easily accomplished when he can act at full strength.

@Llarimar I see what you are saying, and I do partially agree, but "Life before Death" need not be about mercy. Sometimes it's about making the best possible choice for life, even if that involves something distasteful. Which, in my mind, seems very Cultivation like. Take the difference between Jasnah's and Kaladin's philosophies for example. Jasnah puts the lives of the innocent humans over the lives of the potentially dangerous parshpeople. So you could say that Jasnah is putting "Life before Death" even though she is proposing something awful and certain to lead to death. So, really, it is up to the interpretation of the one swearing the oath.

Prescript: My apologies if this Idea has already been put forward by someone else, I checked but probably missed something. Most of what I say is likely common knowledge at this point, but my aim is to show how it is useful to Odium specifically. What we Know: Odium can be freed by someone wielding a large splinter of Honor Fused can be revived in the Everstorm Moash's dagger stole something from Jezrien The dagger works like Hemalurgy, but probably isn't Fused are gathering shardblades Sja-anat corrupts spren Theory: Odium will forge(or else acquire) a new splinter of Honor, give it to one of his minions(or willing participant), and be set free. With the death of Honor's vessel, Odium has opened a new win condition for himself that he did not have in previous Desolations. This condition was shown in Oathbringer when Dalinar told Odium to simply leave, to which Odium's answer was that he could and would if Dalinar willingly and deliberately wished him to. This is possible, according to Odium, because Dalinar has bonded the Stormfather(who has absorbed some more of Honor's investiture after he shattered). So, I think it is safe to assume that any one possessing a splinter of Honor of equal or greater magnitude to that of the Stormfather could free Odium. The question then becomes: How will Odium obtain such a large amount of Honor's investiture? Fortunately for Odium, smaller pieces of Honor are flying(literally in some cases) left, right, and center. Most notably among all the things that contain Honor's essence are the Heralds and their Honoblades. These are by far the largest splinters of Honor with the exception of the Stormfather and maybe the Sibling(the Nightwatcher is probably more of a splinter of Cultivation and therefor not as useful). So, I propose that the reason why Odium is killing Heralds is not because he is worried about the Fused getting stuck again, as the Everstorm may or may not allow them to remain on Roashar indefinably, but because he needs their pieces of Honor. The process of extracting a Herald's fragment of Honor has then already been made manifest by Moash killing Jezrien with the special dagger. The glowing light in the dagger's gemstone is likely Jezrien's splinter of Honor in this case. Odium is looking for the most pure essence of Honor he can get, so that other intents(like Cultivation's) do not interfere with his plan. To that end, he needs a way to divide the souls/spirit webs of his enemies into their Honor and Cultivation components. Hemalurgy would certainly be useful in this scenario, but Odium needs something with a smaller chance of failure. Thus the dagger is possibly a fabrial wielding the surge of spiritual division. All the benefits of Hemalurgy, but none of the hassle. The smaller pieces of Honor can then be mended by spiritual adhesion or tension if necessary(Dalinar or someone with Dalinar's specific powers may be needed). Now Odium needs to kill enough Hearlds to equal the power of the Stormfather, no easy feat. Odium could probably get the majority of them(Nale and Ishar I'm looking at you), but sooner or later the remaining Heralds and our new Radiants will wise up and band together(specifically Ash and Taln). So, Odium needs a backup plan. That plan is the Fused gathering shardbaldes and Sja-anat corrupting living spren. I think this is part of the reason the Fused are occupying places like Celebrant in the cognitive realm. If Odium can't have all the Heralds, he will replace them with all the dead spren and the living spren of the places he is occupying. Thereby proposing a moral dilemma to the forces of Honor: the lives of a few Heralds or the lives of sprenkind. I hear Tukar is nice this time of year, Shinovar too...

My guinea pigs Whitespines are attention eating my hogs, and dislike eating hay this dried shin grass I tried to feed them. I can't believe it's not butter.

***** 5/5 stars Lots of food and evil to destroy. -Nightblood

Send them all to Sel's cognitive realm and let the Dor deal with them. Edit: First ever literal interpretation of slamming the door Dor on someone's hopes and dreams.

@RShara I see what you are saying, and you may have a point. I don't expect acolytes to know everything about their order. However, I don't really think the two situations are comparable. The lift acolyte was caught in contradiction of oath. Did he let Gaux, a criminal, go and become a liar while neglecting his duty? Did he slit his throat, keeping his word and his dedication to Nale's plan, but skipping the required authorization thus breaking the law? He was in a catch 22, just like Kaladin in WoR. He didn't engineer that scenario, he acted out of instinct when there was no possible way to diffuse the situation. I don't expect acolytes to completely understand how to avoid these scenarios, especially when they are dropped directly into the center of one. This is why he said: Most importantly, he was still dealing with confirmed criminals. In your quote he says "their" laws, referring specifically to the Azish(not sure I spelled that right). He still believes that there must be some law he must adhere to in order to execute people. The Shallan acolyte acted differently. He premeditated his murder, he wasn't caught in a contradiction. Shallan wasn't a confirmed criminal as far as we know. He didn't tell his superiors about Shallan(probably) or ask for their help. He must have know that the highspren and Nale wouldn't approve, which is why I don't think it makes logical sense for him to be acting out of ambition. The only way this makes sense is if Nale and the highspren don't know what an accomplice to murder is, which is laughable considering what happened to Ym. It would make much more sense if he was simply a zealot who was sacrificing his future as a skybreaker to kill a radiant. Which is still strange for several reasons, but at least it's somewhat consistent.

But Nale didn't know he was making a lapse, he was acting in the way he thought proper. That means low amounts of skybreakers, which means he can't just make anyone and everyone into a skybreaker. His internal logic still holds, even if he is insane and was manipulated by Ishar. Perhaps he doesn't choose the best people every time, but his fourth oath skybreakers are part of the process as well. But it's stupidity to the point of disbelief. Do something stupid to Impress Nale? sure. Commit a crime to impress the Herald of Justice? Not likely. Also: if we need to count on the stupidity of our villains to have the plot make sense, then something is wrong imo. Really my issue is with Shallan's backstory, not this acolyte. Currently, too many things in her past are "just because" for my tastes. If that makes sense.

Sure, but was it not Nale's greatest fear that too many Radiants would cause another desolation? So he probably wasn't mass recruiting, and the few he did must not have been chosen at random. He must have been somewhat discerning during the recruitment process, even if not all of them would become full Radiants. If this acolyte had any hope of progressing through the ranks of the skybreakers, this was not the way of doing it. Presumably, if he was with the skybreakers long enough to know they kill radiants(long enough to kill even a child), he would know that he needed a legal excuse. But to each their own.

Not trying to disprove anything, merely adding context. I probably should have added an emoji or something to change the tone of that post, my apologies. Imo, It has been shown that there needs to be at least an attempt to administer 'justice' for a skybreaker acolyte to act. Every single one except this one apparently. What crime could Shallan possibly have committed at such a young age, in a remote part of the county? Maybe Nale could get the attention of a highprince, but some nameless acolyte? Obviously Nale didn't know about Shallan, or he would have killed her afterwords. I already outlined why it seems unlikely that the acolyte acted out of ambition... Thanks for that one.

Gawx was a thief. Nale's issue was not that he had been killed, but that the proper paperwork had not been filled out and approved yet. I Imagine that this acolyte probably wouldn't have survived Nale's punishment if Gawx was an innocent.

I suppose that makes sense. To clarify, the acolyte didn't just tell Shallan's mother to kill her, he actively participated by holding back Lin. Though that doesn't really change anything. I'm still confused about one thing however. The acolyte's motivation. There are only two things that make sense to me and neither of them are consistent with what we know: 1) Ambition: The acolytes we see in Edgedancer are practically falling over themselves trying to impress Nale and earn their blades. Perhaps this acolyte was similarly inclined and decided that killing a protoradiant would increase his standing in the eyes of Nale, the other skybreakers, and the highspren. If that is the case, he was pretty incompetent/ignorant. Because (1)he didn't tell anyone where he was or that there was a radiant(so no one can confirm or deny that he actually did it), and (2)it would have broken the law and ruined his chance at gaining a spren/Nale's approval. So ambition probably wasn't his motivation, or he was one of the ten fools. 2) Devotion: So this acolyte must staunchly believe what the Skyberakers are telling him. He must be so loyal to their cause that he is willing to ruthlessly murder a small child and believes that he must do it quickly because he doesn't bother telling the higher ups(which is weird if he was moderately new/a low standing member). This is strange because he has completely internalized part of the skybreaker's doctrine(killing radiants) while ignoring the other half(following the law). I guess that is not entirely unheard of, but this acolyte didn't seem like the particularly dedicated type considering that he was having an affair while on the job(and I say that in the least judgmental way possible, no judgment here). So even if he was fanatical in his devotion to the skybreakers, there are still things about him that don't make sense. Perhaps the answer is simply that the skybreakers are evil/insane, but I would have expected them to be a little more professional about it.

And what crime did this acolyte pin on child Shallan that gave him the excuse to try and kill her? As far was we know surgebinding/being a radiant has not been outlawed in Shallan's country. Pretty sure killing her would still be illegal even with parental consent. It is not like they could find something incriminating in her past, she was like what? 10? Why would the acolyte break the skybreaker's one precept to kill Shallan, when Nale himself let Lift go right when he cornered her, and potentially provoke Nale's wrath and/or break his spren bond? Even if Shallan's mother was the one doing the murdering, the acolyte would still be a willing accomplice and thus guilty. Maybe the acolyte decided to quit the skybreakers to be with Shallan's mother, but then why bother killing her in the first place? I think there is more than enough inconstancy there to warrant more explanation.

Never mind then, that seems very solid. I'm kind of convinced that your method would work(assuming coins can't reach that height), but it just seems a little too unreliable. Under slightly different circumstances(No Atium, No Bendalloy) I would say that Kal would likely win, but Kel just has so many ways to mitigate the chances of actually getting hit when he has his metals. Pretty sure the coins accelerate quite drastically while within the allomancer's range. I seem to remember that being said when Vin put some coins on Elend's chest to safely push him away(though it might have been Kelsier and someone else) without pushing the coins through his chest and accidentally killing him. The Coppermind says that: Though I imagine that shooting them directly upward would diminish their speed. Without any sort of enhancement(without duralumin or mist) a coin passes through a guard's mouth and straight out the back of their head in Well of Ascenstion chapter 43 page 530 of the paperback(when Vin and Zane go and storm Cett's keep). If "Back of the head" means skull, that coin was probably moving pretty fast.

In Soviet Roshar, Ghostbloods infiltrate YOU. In Soviet Roshar, Oaths say YOU. In Soviet Roshar, Rhythms attune YOU.

Do we know this for certain? If I have missed something then my apologies, but the only thing I found on the subject was this WoB(spolier for length): I imagine that it would depend on whether or not Atium is an external or internal metal, right? If it's internal then it would probably be using the allomancer's reference frame. If it's external then it could be using the target's reference frame. This WoB seems to suggest that it is external, but I'm not a master at WoB hunting and make of it what you will(spoiler for length): If this has already been discussed then never mind. Alternatively: Couldn't they just vary the strength in which they are burning their Bendalloy to make the outside world just barely slower? The most extreme case we saw(the explosion scene) was Wayne flaring his Bendalloy to the absolute max, but allomancers can also decrease the strength of their metals by burning them more lightly. Breeze, Zane, and Spook all demonstrated this with their respective metals, why not Bendalloy as well? Also, this would make your Bendalloy last longer because you wouldn't need to be burning it at full strength. @galendo If we are giving Kaladin ~30 minutes of stormlight, then lets say that Kelsier has ~15 minutes of basic metals(not 15 total, 15 each) plus 5 minutes of Atium. 5 minutes is only like 2 and a half beads (approximately), not unreasonable. Using some Bendalloy, Kel wouldn't need to be burning his Atium the entire time(assuming the interaction works the way I think it does). Only for a few seconds to understand the trajectory of the blade at a time(lets say ~2 seconds per dodge). Lets say that Kel burns twice as much Bendalloy each time he doges(~4-5 seconds per dodge), a few seconds before he starts burning Atium and a few seconds to move away from the blade. That's 150 doges with only 5 minuets of Atium and Bendalloy to spare(2 and a half minutes to spare). Using your estimation of a throw every ten seconds(180 throws in 30 minutes, likely Kal could throw faster), Kel only needs to dodge 30 more throws. Steel and Iron or Electrum and pewter would likely be enough to survive 5 minutes with no Atium. And that's not mentioning his spare Bendalloy. He would have 10 minutes of his base metals(at worst), with the exception of Bendalloy of course, to fight what is essentially a glorified shardbearer with no healing, speed, or extra strength. Kel can stagger the usage of his metals, while Kal cannot do the same with his abilities. Sure, but 1.5 seconds doesn't mean much to the guy who can see the future and control time. Even if he messes up a few times, he has still got 2.5 minutes of Bendalloy as a buffer. Also, did you take into account Syl's terminal velocity before coming up with this figure(You must be using an approximation if you did, because we haven't established what Syl's mass or surface area is)? Or did you use a kinematic equation? If you assumed that Syl would just be accelerating the entire time, then Kel would probably have slightly longer to react than predicted. I can't find what the average terminal velocity of an irl sword/spear is, but the terminal velocity of a baseball is ~ 74 miles per hour, the terminal velocity of a human skydiver is ~134-200(depending on how they are falling) mph, a bullet(30 caliber) ~200 mph, and a bowling ball ~350 mph. So a spear/sword is probably around 120-170 mph? Syl probably isn't moving at 200 mph by the time she lands, though it depends on how Kal throws his weapon. It's not that big of a difference, but it's something. Even if its just 0.5 seconds longer, 2 seconds is plenty of time to set up a speed bubble. Kal is going to need a storming in-flight meal if he is up there for 5 hours!

Brilliant! Then logically book four's prologue would be "To Answer"? Do we know who's PoV it will be?

If the blade is already in the air, then defiantly. The extra speed is enough to watch an explosion in slow motion(when flared), as demonstrated by Wayne. You only need to be burning two metals at max. If the blade is in the air, you only need bendalloy assuming you can judge the trajectory well enough to escape. If the blade is still in hand, burn bendalloy then Atium to find out where the blade will be thrown. The extra mental capacity granted by Atium will make calculating the trajectory easy and you will only need to burn each metal for a few seconds at a time. Getting the timing down can be done by realizing that Syl disappears every time Kal wants to throw again. If that runs out, start using steel/iron erratically. Kal is too far away to mess with the coins, so just put them everywhere. You could set it up so that you never really have to touch the floor if you put enough coins down. If, somehow, Kal has still not run out of stormlight, run around with pewter and tin. better than nothing and I'm pretty sure they increase your reaction time a little. According to the coppermind it does: If all else fails, start burning electrum. If your shadow dies suddenly, change direction. In fact, just use bendalloy and electrum and save your Atium. But I just don't see Kal's stormlight lasting this long. Realistically he would probably run out somewhere between steel/iron and tin/pewter. And yet, he runs out of stormlight three times in OB. Once when he is trying to get to his home town, twice in Shadesmar, and a third time during the final battle(Rock has to save him). Half the time we see Kal use his powers for actual fighting in OB he is either in a highstorm or Dalinar just went super saiyan. I think we need Sigzil to run a few more tests quantifying Kal's powers.

I agree, notice how I said that the coin(s) would halt in midair? That wouldn't happen if the planet's gravity was still pulling on the coin(s), the coin(s) would just fall to the ground once the reverse lashing and iron pull stabilized. That is assuming that Kal can't multiply the force of his reverse lashing, which is doubtful considering that the reverse lashing(from the ars arcanum): So conceivably he would be able to increase the strength of his reverse lashing just like his basic lashings. By simply activating overlapping reverse lashings or by fueling a single reverse lashing with more stormlight. Also, Kal would probably need to increase the strength of his reverse lashing in order to effectively block close and mid range coins. Otherwise Kel's coins could, perhaps, just push right through it with minimal change in direction. Which severely diminishes the utility of his reverse lashing in a way that, imo, is unfair for Kal. That was what I was thinking as well! But then I remembered that Syl has a tendency to roam around and spy on people while Kal isn't around. So, Kel could just wait till she left, using bronze to sense when. Though to be fair, Kel wouldn't know that. Well there is also Bendalloy, but Kelsier didn't know that existed before he died. Atium and steel/iron already create a pretty slippery target though. Assuming that they are both given comparable amounts of fuel, Kel could just sacrifice all his Atium dogging until Kal runs out of stormlight. Atium burns quickly, but lashings are also one of the more stormlight-hungry forms of surgebinding. Kel would probably burn trough all his Atium faster, but how much longer can Kal be expected to stay up there? Metals are much easier to ration than stormlight is, and all Kal's powers draw from the same power reserve. I don't know if a war of attrition would be the best choice for a windrunner.

I agree. If they are fighting in a populated city/town, Kal wouldn't even try it because he would fear hitting an innocent by accident. The scenario: Lets say that they both know that their opponent has powers, but are unaware of what those powers are initially. Kal and Kel are both intelligent enough to not needlessly waste their magic reserves and can grasp the other's powers fairly readily after encountering them once. The city they are fighting in has a decent amount of metal, but not an excessive amount. The city is Cosmere aware, 1/5 of the citizens hold small amounts of infused gems, 1/5 have vials of metal, 1/5 have metal coins, 1/5 have small stones for Kal to use, 1/5 have nothing. Each combatant comes to the battle with enough of their respective fuel to last an extended fight. The city is on a planet that has slightly less oxygen than Roshar and slightly stronger gravity, so neither party has the advantage. As for weapons & equipment: Kaladin will not really need anything other than Syl I think that giving Kelsier a pair of steel daggers would be the most fair choice. Sure glass/obsidian daggers are traditional, but I'm sure that Kelsier would be able to pinch a steel dagger or two. No aluminum daggers, that would just be too powerful. On to powers: Kaladin is of the third Ideal giving him; his shape-shifting sprenweapon(sprentool?), decent stormlight metabolism/efficiency, his three lashings plus a rudimentary control over pressure systems, and stormlight healing/strength/speed. No plate yet. Lets assume that brain injury is sufficient to drop a radiant (though Shallan survived when shot in the head with a crossbow bolt). Kelsier knew of only eleven metals before he died. But because Atium is so powerful, lets say that Kelsier has access to the 16 base metals, no Atium, and no God metal alloys. No Feruchemy/compounding! Because we have never seen Kelsier use the new powers, lets say that he is better with them than he is with emotional allomancy, but worse with them than he is with steel/iron. Kel is essentially a mistborn in era 2. Who wins? Assuming that Kaladin can't create a perfect vacuum around Kelsier and make him explode, I would vote for Kel coming out on top. Kaladin is good at what he does, but not so good that Kel doesn't have an answer for it. Another point on this: If Kel is smart, the usefulness of the reverse lashing can be mitigated through the use of some clever manipulation of pushes/pulls. For instance: 1) Kel fires off a blast of coins 2) Kal is ready for them with a Sylshield and has turned his hand behind the shield into a reverse lashing. 3) Coins are pulled toward his hand/shield 4) Kel starts pulling on the coins instead of pushing 5) Kel's pull and Kal's pull cause the coins lurch to a stop in midair 6) Kel, who is still pulling, must be pulled up in Kal's direction. Kel is slingshot directly into Kal's face, just as if the coins were heavier than Kel. The only way this isn't true is if a reverse lashing is weaker than a iron pull, which I doubt. Even if Kal could stop his reverse lashing in time, Kel would just start pushing on the coins again and repeat the process. If Kel has Atium, he would know exactly when to start pushing again. 7) Kal is running out of options. He could switch to Sylblade/spear to defend himself, but potentially give Kel an opening to attack. All Kel has to do in this situation is distract Kal until Kel can pull on the coins, which will strike true, even if he uses a reverse lashing, if Kal is using his sword/spear instead of his shield. He could stick with his shield and hope that he can lash Kel away( in which case Kel can push on the coins to stick to Kal a little longer) before Kel gets inside his shield's guard. He could use a full lashing, but the only thing for Kal to stick Kel onto is himself, not exactly an ideal situation. 8) Kal is down after a few quick slashes or coin wounds, or he has to doge really quickly. I could see Kel doing this without Atium, but it becomes so much easier with it. If Kel has the 16 base metals, chromium and a little bendalloy would make quick work of Kal. In the worst case scenario for Kel, he is placing metal closer to Kal or keeping him away from areas where there is metal, which is what he wants. Best case scenario, Kel gets a free way to close the gap between them. The real question is: Who is the better leader? Kel or Kal?

When you reach the end of Hero of Ages and need a drink:

I was going to ask why he would need a mount when he can fly.....But I answered my own question.