Varenus

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Correct me if I am wrong or if this has been brought up before, but couldn't the Fullborn just start filling his brassminds with heat to escape the lava pool? The coppermind says: So you are actually providing the Fullborn with a method of escape by my estimation.

Preface: I'm going to stick my neck out and actually defend Moash. Not as a person (he is reprehensible and worthy of scorn), but as a character in a narrative. We are all entitled to our opinions, though mine might be an unpopular one, so feel free to disagree or agree with a clear conscience. So here we go: 1) This is factually incorrect, I believe that Moash teaches the Parsh how to fight after Lady Leshwi tells him why they(The Fused) fight. This goes over the readers' head the first time because we didn't know the truth about the Recreance then. So I see why that would be forgettable, but Moash was already convinced before any training took place. 2) Also, this is out of context. Its like saying that Shallan is a good artist, but without discussing how/why she learned or what she does with them. Yeah, Moash trained those Parsh after he was convinced that the Fused were right, the events leading up to that revelation took place, and given an attempt to exact vengeance on the king in the form of storming Kholinar. He wasn't doing it just to be like Kaladin or because he needed to be 100% sure he was on the Fuseds' side, he was motivated for selfish reasons not out of the kindness of his heart like Kaladin. Also, there were plenty more exciting parts of his story that diverged from Kaladin-like moments. I agree with this and @Isabel's analysis. I think that Moash is all those things, but character flaws do not necessarily make a character who is flawed in a narrative sense. Also, I think that what people are saying about Moash/Kaladin and Amaram/Dalinar is that they are indeed different internally(as you said), but they are put in similar circumstances(thus the comparisons). I honestly don't see why that is a problem though, it's a common literary device and an appropriate one given the significance of symmetry on Roshar. So I don't see Moash's and Kaladin's stories mirroring each other as negative, but as a positive. Moash was only ever "good" in association to Kaladin and Bridge Four, he was never a good person on his own. Even while he was with them, he never acted with any great sense of honor or even morals. The only things he ever talked about was revenge and power. He was, not to put too fine a point on it, odious the whole time. Remember when he said that he would gladly switch places with the lighteyes and have them be the slaves instead? That was in WoK I believe, Moash didn't just decide that he had a problem with how things were run. He did however just realize that the voidbringers were not as bad as he was lead to believe, which was a common theme in OB. Really, his switch was more believable than Nale's, who apparently forgot all about the events of Edgedancer, his interaction with Lift, and the last 4500+ years of Rosharan history. This is strange, but I have all ways considered it the other way around. A hero's or villain's story should not start after they are considered worthy, it should start when they are normal(or worse than normal). Otherwise there can be no growth or development. The journey they go through and the lessons they learn(or don't) are what make them worthy. Remember that Moash is just getting his first PoV's now, he hasn't had the chance to develop into a full antagonist yet. He just got his powers at the end of the book. Why must all our PoV's be from "moral" people? I find that not only bland, but unrealistic. We are talking about a story where our dark god is called Odium/Passion. I don't want a story full of Kaladins and Dalinars(though I like them both). I want PoV's from both sides to get a deeper story, one that is not single dimensional(not to imply that Kaladin/Dalinar is single dimensional). His viewpoint is simply that of an antagonist's, the enemy's, I didn't need nor expect to be taught the secrets of the Cosmere by Moash(though he teases us with that dagger). I just want him to show the complimenting motif, the counter to our Radiants. The one other person who's PoV's would have fit was Venli's, but she is just like the rest of our Radiants now. Honestly, Moash is somewhat sympathetic. Just and wholesome ideas are relatable within reason, but so are ones of hatred and revenge to some extent. Especially when those emotions are justified, Moash hasn't really lived a happy life(though some of that was admittedly his own doing). I would expect someone with his past to be bitter. If someone with his background and personality didn't turn to Odium, I don't know what it would take for someone to do so. And he does miss Bridge Four and Kaladin and regret what his hatred made him do(kind of), so he has some internal conflict and some variance in his inner dialog. Well, generally speaking, most edgy teens aren't born under an oppressive lighteyed regime, have their parents die in unlawful prison, and be sent to die as cannon fodder. Also, who is the original edgy teen you are comparing Moash to for him to be an even edgier teen? Kylo Ren? 1) Moash wants to kill the king in WoR, does so in OB 2) Moash wants to overthrow the lighteyes/become a lighteyes in WoK, does so in WoR and joins the Fused in OB Seems to fit to me. I don't think it will happen, but...just...please no.

Most hated person: Straff all the way, he has no redeeming qualities at all. (Sadeas was bad, but Straff is next level) Most hated traitor: Nale, he didn't deserve that hug that Lift gave him. If Odium dies in the first five books, then he is my least favorite dark god. Otherwise he is my favorite dark god. He needs to prove he was worth the hype. Favorite antagonist (no one asked for this, but i'm doing it anyway): tie between Mraize and Miles. Edit: Most evil spren: Ulim (he is kind of funny though)

Ah, thanks for telling me. I didn't know if it would or not. But doesn't holding an Honorblade let you hole even more stormlight than a Radiant? Dangerous amounts even? The WoB that you linked says as much, and Syl also mentions it somewhere in WoR. So if the amount of stormlight changes the speed in which you heal( and I agree that it does with normal Radiants), shouldn't Szeth's healing be faster than Kaladin's? Maybe I am just misunderstanding. Oh I agree, I just wasn't sure if should count that scenario as it would take the Bloodmaker ages to store that much health up. And here we come to the crux of the issue. I think that there is a distinct difference. Lets take the Guillotine example from the WoB. Say that it takes 1 second for the blade to separate the person's Physical self from their "soul". Assume both Radiants and Bloodmakers have infinite stormlight and health storages. The feruchemist can heal the damage infinity fast. So by the time that one second passes, the gold compounder can have a new head(or new body?) in 0.5 seconds. And this process can be scaled to fit any time interval, because there will all ways be a shorter time that the Bloodmaker can heal in(assuming they have enough health stored). So the bloodmakers connections are never actually decaying, because they(the person's physical body) are healing so fast that the connections never realize they should be in danger. If they could only heal in 1.1 seconds they would still die because their connection to their body is gone. So I agree that speed matters when it comes to Bloodmakers/gold compunders. When it comes to Radiants, they are not nearly as fast(as you said), and yet are able to survive killing blows just as easily. They don't need to heal the damage in less than 1 second because their connections are being forcibly held together with stormlight(at least that is the way I am interpreting the WoB I quoted). They don't have a time limit other than how long it would take for their stormlight to drain away. So the speed of healing is not as big an issue. Therefore I propose that the limiting factor of F healing is the amount of time it takes for the damage a person's body sustains to separate their soul and body. Heal before that mark and you live, heal after and you die. The limiting factor of Stormligh healing is the amount of stormlight you have because the Radiant will just be "mostly dead" while their body heals. Doesn't matter if you are "mostly dead" for hours or for a few seconds. All that matters is that you have enough stormlight while you slowly heal(slow being a relative term here). Other thoughts: 1) Radiants are the Sprens' way of copying the Heralds. The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows. makes sense that Stormlight healing would function similar to the mechanics of Cognitive Shadows. 2) Fits with all things being equal. Give a Bloodmaker infinite storage and he can heal almost any wound. Give a Radiant infinite stormlight and they can do the same. They just do it differently and at different speeds. Bloodmaker is faster, but the Radiant can sustain damage to their connections. 3) If a thunderclast smashed a Bloodmaker, they would only have to wait till their soul separated. It would take the amount of time for a Radiant's stormlight to run out to kill them in the same way. If this was a WoR discussion I would agree with you, but OB threw everything back up into the air. Yeah, I was kind of upset when Shallan got shot. I am happy she survived, but I felt that should have been enough to kill a Radiant(based off WoR that is). Agreed, sort of. All the thuderclast would have to do is hold down for a few seconds. It probably would only take a few extra seconds as stormlight healing takes more stormlight for larger amounts of damage. However I don't think it would instantly kill them through their stormlight (that is to say, kill them while they still had stormlight in them). They would have to wait for the stormlight to be exhausted.

Perhaps, but is it really that slow? I'm not certain that Szeth's words and experiences holding Jezrien's Honorblade can be applied to Radiants because: 1) Szeth didn't know that Radiants could heal Shardblade wounds. I subscribe to the theory that Szeth was or was associated with the Shin Stoneshamans, so I believe Szeth when he says that a person(who is not a Herald) holding an Honorblade can't heal those wounds. Which means that Honorblade healing and Radiant healing is different. 2) Szeth said that his broken jaw would take hours to heal(If I am remembering correctly), but our Radiants have healed more grievous wounds in less time. Kaladin breaking both his legs in the duel in WoR didn't even take 5 minutes. Again, Shallan getting shot in the head. Kaladin healing after getting beaten up by Moash in Shardplate was described similar to "water droplets evaporating on a hot pan " (or something similar) and he had a massive leg wound as well. That last one might be considered a special case because he had just sworn his third oath, but still. 3) Honorblades already have a reputation for being inferior to a sprenbond when wielded by someone who is not a Herald when it comes to stormlight consumption, why not healing as well? So I'm taking Szeth's thoughts and actions with his Honorblade with a grain of salt when it comes to comparing them to Radiants. This WoB makes me think differently(emphasis in bold, spoiler for length): So, stormlight healing can be used to glue together a "soul". If we are interpreting soul to mean Cognitive + Spiritual, that would imply that stormlight healing is similar to what happens to Cognitive Shadows, but in a less permanent manner. In that so long as the Radiant has stormlight in their body, their "soul" is not separating into its Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual parts no matter how fatal a wound they receive in the physical. Which fits with Honor's theme of creating and holding bonds, the bonds that form a human in this case. This line of reasoning also explains why Bloodmakers can't survive being shot in the head, while Shallan can. Yes, they could heal the physical damage if they were fast enough and had enough stored health(like if they were compounding), and yes they can heal spiritual wounds as well(as described in other WoBs). But ferucemical healing isn't doing anything to keep the Bloodmaker's pieces together, unlike stormlight healing. So that is my head cannon as to why a Radiant could survive an encounter with a thunderclast, assuming that the thunderclast doesn't just squeeze them until their stormlight drains away. That being said, this is mostly supposition on my part.

SuperCrackpot theory: Those greedy Ventures were behind it! Oathbringer spoilers:

As I said before, the objective of my previous post was to determine which were the more powerful, Radiant or Fused, on an individual bases. Not in the context of a larger war, as the Desolations were, where there are a lot more variables. Are there scenarios where Fused could defeat a Radiant? Sure, but the tables would have to be skewed in favor of the Fused so much that such a contest would not be an accurate representation of the Fused combat effectiveness, but rather Odium and Co.'s superior planning and numbers. Also, how many of those Desolations did Odium win? None of them unless you count the Final Desolation, which I don't. I agree that pacing and stormlight conservation is indeed important in large scale battles, but I also think that they don't run out as easily as you might think. Its strange, during the first half of the book stormlight is very scarce due to the weeping and strange weather patterns, and at the end of the book stormlight is coming out of their ears. So, stormlight is not as rare as the beginning of the book might lead you to believe and not as plentiful as the end of the book implies. that being said, limited stormlight is the one major weakness of the Radiants we have seen so far. But, that is like saying that an archer is only dangerous so long as they have arrows. Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree that there will be more powerful Fused, but I just put them into a separate category than the normal Fused we have seen so far. Right now I am skeptical if the normal Fused are even truly Voidbinders at all. The Voidbinding chart seems to suggest that each Voidbinder has two surges, yet these Fused are only ever seen using one. I hope the Fused still on Braize are more comparable to Radiants than the Fused we have seen have been so far. Perhaps with evil spren like Ulim. Quite right, I was comparing standard issue Fused with standard issue Radiants. Throwing extra shardblades into the mix really muddies the waters. Honestly though, when the Fused were gathering the blades I was wondering if they were doing so just to get the spren itself. Corrupted Radiantspren fighting for Odium sounds even scarier than Fused with shardblades. Given enough stormlight, I think Renarin could still survive as he has the surge of healing as well as stormlight healing. Maybe not the others though, Renarin is a wildcard right now. The Heralds are weird, supposedly Honor fueled them directly and they never needed stormlight while he was alive. So did they have infinite healing as well? Apparently not or they probably wouldn't have died at all. Maybe they needed to separate the herald from their blade to stop the healing, but that would be the same as running out of stormlight. So I think that getting smashed is still survivable if the Knight or Herald is healing. Certainly Kaladin had the jump on the Fused(pun intended), but it still seems a little absurd that Kaladin was able to do that considering that the average Fused has years and years of flying experience. You are probably right about the instincts a sprenbond provides, but if you ask me it was the fact that a sprenbond's surges and stormlight consumption is more efficient than an Honnorbalde's that let Kaladin win in the end. And that a Radiantblade can change shape. As for Moash, remember that he(or Odium) have at least a part of Jezrien's soul. Who knows what Moash could do with both Jezrien's soul and his Honorblade. Presumably, as with all things, there is a learning curve when it comes to practicing with surges and/or shardblades. I agree that our Radiants will continue to improve their skills, but the time skip, his natural talent for fighting, and Fused mentorship will get Moash through his time as a complete beginner, which is usually the hardest part of learning anything. I am more than ready for Kaladin to fight some beefed up Fused, and Kaladin fighting Nale and/or Ishar sounds incredible; but I feel that Nale and Ishar are going to be confronted by Szeth and Dalinar respectively. Nale and Ishar, IMO, just don't have reason to become rival(s) for Kaladin. IMO, Moash fits the bill perfectly. Roshone was child Kaladin's antagonist, Amaram was soldier Kaladin's antagonist, and Moash is radiant Kaladin's antagonist. I agree that Moash vs. Kaladin does seem like the most predictable champion pairing, which is why I don't think it will end up being them. This is Sanderson we are talking about after all, you know there is going to be a crazy plot twist somehow. I need this to happen now.

My point was not that an army of Fused could not take out a Radiant or small group of Radiants, but that a single Fused would be hard pressed to deal with a single Radiant. Note that I was responding to a remark on Fused vs. Radant combat effectiveness being similar(and I don't think they are). Which only took into account the individual merits of Radants and Fused, not larger strategical factors such as the amount of Fused. Sorry if it wasn't very clear, I chose bad examples xD So I agree with everything you've said, and I realize that the Fused and Odium are more than dangerous enough and were foiled by something they could not have predicted. And that stormlight management is a weakness of the Radiants. However, I still think that any Radiant at or above the third ideal worth their salt would mop the floor with a Fused, maybe two, even if given only a few minutes of stormlight. And Kaladin does so even outside of the special case of Dalinar's ability to summon stormlight. Such as the scene with the wall guard I mentioned. Shallan survived being shot in the head and that was not during Dalinar's super charging, so Radiants can still take a beating regardless. Getting even a semi-prepared Radiant to a point where they can actually be taken out is vastly more difficult than simply breaking a Fused's genheart. Bleeding a Radiant dry of their stormlight still requires the Fused to evaid like crazy and play the waiting game, or to risk going in for a crippling strike, which the Radiant may or may not be able to heal and immediately retaliate. Either way is not as direct as what the Radiant has to accomplish in fighting the Fused, breaking their gemheart. Also, the Fused would have a harder time landing blows that would require stormlight to heal if the Radiant already has their shardplate and once the Radiant gets their plate it is implied that they will be able to store and retain stormlight without as much waste, though I think that is just speculation at this point. So I hope that clarifies what I meant in the previous post.

Curious as to why you think this, because unless we are talking about Radiants of the first or second ideal, the Fused don't really seem all that threatening to our Knights so far. Kaladin was able to successfully defend Dalinar from not only a Yalig-Nar enhanced, shardplate wearing, dual shardblade wealding Amaram; but a handful of the Fused at the same time. Sure Rock saved him at the very end, but the only times Kaladin was in any danger from the Fused was when he was out of stormlight. Storms, He even "killed" one without using any lashings while he was with the wall guard and he is only of the third ideal. Jasnah, who is probably of the fourth ideal if not the fifth, was destroying their vessels with her eyes practically closed. So, yes while their ability to return from the dead is fancy, they can't really kill a Radiant either. What wound would be able to kill a Radiant that a Fused could deliver? They don't have shardblades of their own that we have seen. Getting smashed by a thunderclast does not work as Renarin survived it easily enough. Shallan got shot in the storming head, so even stabbing them through their eyes wouldn't work. That leaves complete beheading and maybe the surge of division. Both of which become much harder, if not impossible, once a Radiant gets their plate. While I agree that Moash is a newb and would make a poor substitute for Rayse, I disagree with your assessment on how well he could be trained. Moash is a fast learner when it comes to fighting as you mentioned for one. The lack of a spren mentor is not that big of a deal when you consider that Moash has access to multiple Fused who not only have been fighting with the surge of gravitation for thousands of years, but who have also fought and possibly defeated the original wealder of Moash's Honorblade, Jezrien. Now compare that knowledge of fighting with a spren who probably just lost all its memories transitioning from the Cognative Realm to the Physical and has likely never seen voidbringers because all the Radiant spren of old are now deadeyes. Which would you rather have? Add onto that the one year time skip between books 3 and 4 where Moash will have plenty of time to practice, actually use his powers in combat scenarios, and possibly be granted more powers. That is the making of a villain fit to rival Kaladin. On a completely separate note, I hope Rayse survives to at least all 10 books. I want him to live up to the hype.

Avalanches for Stormlight should be called "Sanderson Storm Surges"; abbreviated SSS, triple S, or S cubed. It's a pun and an alliteration.

I bet that they are Parshendi gemhearts, but that is just random speculation. I'm fifty-fifty on the black spheres being unmade/voidlight. On one hand Aesudan says that Gavilar had found one Unmade, but he has two black spheres. So that seems to imply that the sphere's are not Unmade or that the queen didn't know all of Gavilar's secrets. Also, it seems strange that the Unmade were bound in those spheres before the plot actually explains how they got there in the first place, then have them be set free two books later. On the other hand why would Gavilar only have two spheres of voidlight? Why stop at two? Why not a hundred and why bother keeping the second one away from the Parshendi? I think it might be the opposite way around. The Thrill/Nergaoul seems to follow where ever that black sphere goes, until the third book anyway. When Gavilar had it, his armies in Alethkar felt the Thrill most strongly. Then, Szeth moves it to Jah Kevad and it is felt more strongly in that country. Mr. T mentions that the Thrill was moving away from Alethkar and towards Jah Keved in WoR. Though I can't remember the exact chapter, here is a line from the coppermind:

That would be interesting, and that was also my initial thought, but the epigraphs seem to suggest that the fighting was taking place mostly in northern Iri and/or western Reshi. Here is a map of Roshar, look near Iri: So, my best guess is that Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured in Rall Elorim, the city of shadows. The shattering of the plains might be involved, but it is across the entire length of Roshar. But who knows, maybe there is some oathgate trickery going on.

Fair enough, but then why does the Voidbinding chart show each of the Voidorders having 2 surges? (except the two central orders of course) Here's the chart:

I like it, makes sense why the Skybreakers were using those colored dust bags to train their squires. They were practicing throwing things while flying?

Just going to leave this here It's not perfect, but I think it still fits quite well.

Pretty sure that spren existed before the arrival of any shards on Roshar. Unless greatshells didn't exist and the Parshendi didn't have forms before the shattering, which I doubt. So, wouldn't those spren that greatshells bond and the lesser spren Parshendi bond count as "adonalsiumspren" because Adonalsium made them? Granted, they aren't powerful spren like Stormpappy, but they should still count. Also, Shards have to work within the system of a shardplanet and can only make a system from scratch if they have made the whole planet(like Scadrial). Yes, there is wiggle room allowing for the Shards to make their own spren types, but for the most part the shards on Roshar are bound by what has already been done by Adonalsium on Roshar. Therefore its a reasonable assumption that spren existed before any Shards made their way to Roshar because spren bonds are a central focus of magic on Roshar.

But Truthwatchers do not have Transformation so how would they be involved with it? Soulcasting is Physical Transformation, like you said. Manifesting and Shallan's personas is Cognitive Transformation, like you said. I think that Spiritual Transformation will act similarly to(Mistborn Spoilers):

Tell me about it, week before finals week. As usual, I forgot something vitally important. Good point about Renarin as well. I mostly agree, I would like to formally invite you to this thread on Surgebinding where I go onto some of the details about what I think is happening(look in the comments not the OP for the Dalinar bit).

Is that actually Adhesion though? Where does the book say that? I have looked at it like three or four times, I wanted to address this but I was worried that I missed something. I though that the Stormfather was talking in general terms about Dalinar's surges. I was thinking that he was using Cognitive Tension to "strengthen" the Cognitive aspect of the statue to think that is was one whole piece again. Kind of like what we see Shai talk about in the Emperor's Soul.

@Ookla the Hatter That does make sense, and it very well could be. My problem is that if we assume that the basic form of each surge counts as the physical version of that surge, we must put a check in the Bondsmith's Physical Adhesion box. Which would either imply that Dalinar can manipulate pressure/vacuum like Kaladin or that he is worse at Physical Adhesion. I'm not sure I like either option when there is a simpler answer. But that's just, like, my opinion man This is what happens when your sample only has two data points. Oh well.

Like I said: basic lashings and reverse lashings are part of this Idea. Presumably Szeth will be able to do a lot more with Gravitation.

Greetings everyone, I have a theory that possibly explains what Voidbinding is and how it relates to Surgebinding and Sja-anat. Note that there are still many uncertainties when it comes to this topic, so a lot of this will be speculation on my part. Feel free to agree or disagree as you please. Also, if I am stealing someone's idea from another thread, I am sorry. First off, This theory is based largely on the fact that the ten surges are divided into the three realms, as suggested by the Stormfather to Dalinar. Next, I would like to direct our attention to a few of the recent discussions around Surgebinding and Voidbinding(Spoiler tag for length). All credit to those who participated in these threads for the wonderful ideas they came up with. From these discussions we come to a particularly interesting idea and the one that I think makes the most sense. Renarin, as a corrupted Truthwatcher, has access to one "Voidsurge". The surge of Spiritual Illumination, which lets him see the future. I think that Renarin is using this surge, instead of a resonance, for the following reasons: 1) Resonance as not actually been solidly defined in the canon as of yet and we have never had one of our Knight's even mention it. So, I am hesitant to place too much relevance into them. 2) Nightform is known for its ability to see the future. The fact that Renarin's resonance just happens to be the same as Nightform's ressonance/surge seems extremely unlikely. it's more likely IMO that they simply have the same surge. 3) No resonance has been as incredibly powerful as storming future sight. 4) Surges can be used without explicitly meaning to use them as well as resonances. Kaladin on bridge runs for example. So, I am fairly confident that he is using a surge, and the best fit for future sight is Spiritual Illumination for obvious reasons. So far I haven't really said anything that some else hasn't said before and in a more concise manner, but here is where it really gets crazy. My hypothesis is that Surgebinding and Voidbinding are actually the same exact system, but with access to different realmatic surges, with one realm spanning both Surgebinding and Voidbinding per surge. And, that Sja-anat has the ability to change a spren's surge's from one realm to another. First lets focus on Sja-anat. We have only seen Sja's corruption effect on two spren. The oathgate spren and Glys. I have already given most of my case for Glys above, but I will expand it a little further here. People on the forums have noticed that some order of Knights seem to have an affinity for one of their surges and call it their "Primary surge". I slightly disagree. I think what we are picking up on is the various order's Physical Surges and that the other surges of each order are simply more ambiguous because they happen in different realms. For example, Shallan has physical Illumination(lightweaving) and Cognitive Transformation(her personas). Likewise, I theorize that normal, untainted, Truthwatchers have the surges of Physical Progression and Cognitive Illumination. Sja's corruption has changed Gly's surge of Cognitive Illumination into Spiritual Illumination. leaving Renarin with Physical Progression and Spiritual Illumination. Physical Progression explains Renarin's ability to heal so well. To expand the symmetry we can conclude that: Truthwatchers: Physical Progression and Cognitive Illumination Corrupted Truthwatchers: Physical Progression and Spiritual Illumination Voidwatcher/Nightform: Cognitive Progression and Spiritual Illumination So the realm that spans these orders is the Cognitive Realm, though this might be different for other orders. What about the Oathgate spren? Normal Oathgates move purely in the Physical Realm, so they use Physical Transportation. The Corrupted Oathgate spren uses Cognitive Transportation because it takes people into the Cognitive Realm. So, Sja has changed the spren's surge from Physical to Cognitive. Which makes sense if Elsecallers have Cognitive Transportation and Physical Transformation, which they do (Elsecalling and Soulcasting). From there I think that Willshaper's have Physical Transportation because that was the power the Oathgates were origianlly using and I don't think they would have used a voidsurge to power them. Which leaves Spiritual Transportation for the Voidbinders and Corrupted Knights. To sum it up, Sja can transform the realmatics of surges from Physical -> Cognitive -> Spiritual. If she can turn Spiritual to Physical and complete the cycle we have yet to see. Moving from Sja to Surgebinding/Voidbinding: In my mind, the only difference separating the two magic systems is the realms they tend to work through. Knights mostly work in the Physical and Voidbinders mostly in the Spiritual. Which makes sense given that fused have no physical bodies of their own and that Voidbinding is like the "Drak Arts" of Roshar. The symmetry of the Surgebinding and Voidbinding charts also lends its weight to this theory, especially the inverted symmetry for the glyphs of the surges/voidsurges. If people are wondering how Kaladin can use the physical aspect of Gravitaion, Lift the physical aspect of Progression, and Dalinar the Physical aspects of Adhesion. I think it is simply because there is a fundamental way of using each surge that is independent of its realmatics. So, the basic/fundamental way of using Adhesion, for example, is the full lashing. Both Kaladin and Dalinar use it, but I doubt Kaladin can learn to speak other languages or Dalinar control pressure like Kaladin can. Lets start filling out a chart, feel free to lend me your thoughts on what should go where. This makes the most sense to me for the Knights(I really like this one): Order / Surges Physical Cognitive Spiritual Windrunner Adhesion Gravitation Skybreaker Gravitation Division Dustbringer Division Abrasion Edgedancer Abrasion Progression Truthwatcher Progression Illumination Lightweaver Illumination Transformation Elsecaller Transformation Transportation Willshaper Transportation Cohesion Stoneward Cohesion Tension Bondsmith ? ? Adhesion For Voidbinders I think this makes sense, but it is subject to drastic changes: Voidorder / Surges Physical Cognitive Spiritual Windrunner Adhesion Gravitation Skybreaker Gravitation Division Dustbringer Division Abrasion Edgedancer Abrasion Progression Truthwatcher Progression Illumination Lightweaver Illumination Transformation Elsecaller Transformation Transportation Willshaper Transportation Cohesion Stoneward Cohesion Tension Bondsmith ? ? ? For Corrupted Radiants we have(maybe): Corrupted Order / Surges Physical Cognitive Spiritual Windrunner Adhesion Gravitation Skybreaker Gravitation Division Dustbringer Division Abrasion Edgedancer Abrasion Progression Truthwatcher Progression Illumination Lightweaver Illumination Transformation Elsecaller Transformation Transportation Willshaper Transportation Cohesion Stoneward Cohesion Tension Bondsmith ? ? ? That's all folks, now tear it apart. Edit: Random speculation Spiritual Adhesion seems to work on a similar concept as Feruchemical Connection from Mistborn. Spiritual Illumination seems similar Atium. Spiritual Transformation sounds scarily like Lerasium(i.e changing a spirit web). Are we seeing some overlap with magic systems from other planets? I particularly think that the Knight chart fits because the cognitive surges seem to fit their traits quite well. I don't know the specifics of Willshapers, but Cognitive Cohesion seems to fit the name quite well. Malata( or whatever the name of Mr.T's Dustrbinger is) seems like she has an abrasive personality and Cognitive Abrasion seems like something Releasers would be in to.

@sonwarrior01 I admit that the future sight might be Renarin's resonance, but I am hesitant for a few reasons: 1) Resonance as not actually been solidly defined in the canon as of yet and we have never had one of our Knight's even mention it. 2) Nightform is known for its ability to see the future. The fact that Renarin's resonance just happens to be the same as Nightform's ressonance/surge seems extremely unlikely. it's more likely IMO that they simply have the same surge. 3) No resonance has been as incredibly powerful as storming future sight. 4) Surges can be used without meaning to use them as well as resonances. Kaladin for example. Also, I wouldn't be too sure about that. The Ars Arcanum seems to only talk about the physical forms of each surge. How does Dalinar's use of Adhesion to speak another language fall under the purview of vacuum/pressure? I don't think the laws of physics that we know are sufficient to talk about the dynamics of other realms. Also, I think that that paragraph in the Ars Arcanum is talking specifically about Lightweaving, the physical aspect of illumination. Shallan uses illumination in the physical, but still needs spiritual connection. Perhaps Renarin would also need some spiritual connection to use illumination in the Spiritual realm, but the actual target of the surge would be in the spiritual realm instead of the physical realm like Shallan. If you read the Ars Arcanum for the basic lashing, it also has a spiritual component, but the effect is still physical. I don't think we know enough about Renarin to definitively state what he wants or even that he is a good vorin. And there is some wiggle room with the whole desire/intent thing. Kaladin used gravitation to save his life on bridge runs, but he was so depressed his life meant nothing to him. I was referring to when Dalinar stuck that one ardent to the floor with a full lashing when they were dueling. Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you mean that Dalinar is using Adhesion or Tension? It is never explicitly stated what surge he uses there to my knowledge. It could just be the basic lashing for Tension applied in a way other than how the Stoneward used it, but there are other explanations.

What I think is happening is this: For each surge there is a basic way of utilizing that power. In the case of Adhesion it would be what Szeth calls a "Full Lashing" because we see both Dalinar and Kaladin use this form of lashing. Beyond the basic form of lashing for each surge there are specialized surges separated into the three realms and then divided among the orders. Dalinar obviously has Spiritual Adhesion and I don't think its really a stretch to think that Kaladin has access to Physical Adhesion. Spiritual Adhesion works in a similar way as Feruchemical connection from Mistborn, while Physical Adhesion controls Vacuum/Pressure to a greater extent. I don't think that Dalinar could change pressure/vacuum in the same way that kaladin can and I don't think that Kaladin can learn to speak other languages like Dalinar can. But what about Cognitive Adhesion? Well I have a strange Idea and we are going to have to look at a surge other than Adhesion to get a hint about it. Lets look at Renarin, and he has been disused at length in other threads, but I will give a brief synopsis. Renarin's spren Glys has been corrupted by Sja-anat and we have strong situational evidence that suggests that Renarin has the ability to use some form of Voidbinding. For further details look Here and Here.(let me know if these actually work or not.) From those discussions there have been good arguments that Renarin has access to the Surge of Progression as all other Truthwatchers possess, but he also has access to the voidsurge of Illumination. A voidsurge that allows him to see the future. And which of the three realms allows for seeing into the future? None other than the spiritual. Therefore I think that the voidsurge of Illumination is actually Spiritual Illumination, literally illuminating the spiritual realm to see the future. Given Renarin as an example, I think that the Voidbinders have access to the realmatic surges that the Knights do not have access to. So, Cognitive Adhesion will only used by a full on Voidbinder or a Knight who's spren has been corrupted. That being said, this all my take on the magic system as it stands now and feel free to pick it apart.

I agree completely. Especially considering the part where the street urchin dies. It's a shame to, because I actually didn't mind Shallan's character/personality/storyarc in WoK or WoR. The only real part I find frustrating is the whole multiple personality thing . And that is mostly because it caused more problems, both plot wise and narrative wise, for Shallan then they seem to solve. After having more time to think her arc in OB over, I have decided that we will just have to see how it plays out in the future books.