Civil war reactions thread (Spoilers)

[Master Elodin]

So I went in expecting to be on Cap's team, and I came out solidly on his team, but it's so hard to really judge anyone's motivations.

 

Except Tony's.

 

He's arrogant and short-sighted, and he totally refuses to let go of this concept of vengeance… against the brain-washed super soldier who had absolutely no control over his actions?  He knows the story of how that happened.  I get being mad he wasn't told that Bucky killed his parents.  I don't get him trying to murder Bucky over it.

 

jW

I completely disagree. Tony was absolutely justified in his wanting to take revenge.

[Orlion Blight]

Agreed. Besides, if Tony's plan was followed to begin with, a good portion of the movie would not have happened.

[Jondesu]

I completely disagree. Tony was absolutely justified in his wanting to take revenge.

Revenge is never justified. Justice, sure, let a court sort it out (but that's not what was going to happen), but trying to flat out murder the guy when he's not trying to hurt you and you know 100% for certain he wasn't in control of his own mind and body when he killed your parents 40 years earlier? Yeah...no chance I could side with Tony.

jW

[Master Elodin]

Agreed. Besides, if Tony's plan was followed to begin with, a good portion of the movie would not have happened.

Wait, who do you agree with? I'm confused now.

[Jondesu]

Wait, who do you agree with? I'm confused now.

I think he was agreeing with you.

jW

[Voidus]

Revenge is never justified. Justice, sure, let a court sort it out (but that's not what was going to happen), but trying to flat out murder the guy when he's not trying to hurt you and you know 100% for certain he wasn't in control of his own mind and body when he killed your parents 40 years earlier? Yeah...no chance I could side with Tony.

jW

Not justified but it's certainly understandable, much like caps decision to protect Bucky. It's illegal, he had no logical grounds for doing so, he nearly murdered a bunch of his friends but he acted based on an understandable emotion of wanting to protect a friend.

 

Also I really don't get the brainwashed defense. This wasn't a supernatural body takeover or scarlet witch producing visions, this was solely through psychological manipulation. Yeah it's understandable that it worked but it's not as simple as not being in control, he technically did those things entirely of his own will. Yes his will was manipulated but that doesn't make it excusable.

 

Also Bucky was a dangerous wanted fugitive who repeatedly resisted arrest, has proven he can escape from jail and is a mass murderer, whatever the circumstances behind that may be. Lethal force is kinda the only way to actually make sure you do stop him.

[Delightful]

Which i guess is why they froze Bucky again.

I do think the psychological manipulation is a total will takeover. When the "psychologist" set Bucky loose halfway through the film, he later had absolutely no recollection of what happened. If he's recognised Cap in Winter Soldier, or remembered his name was Bucky, that movie would Have gone down very differently. "Under the influence" Bucky is basically a remote control puppet. I'm pretty sure he also didn't remember killing Tony's parents. And I don't think revenge is acceptable. The only one who really got that was Black Panther, and goodness that moment was glorious.

[The Sovereign]

Reading through this thread I seem to be the minority, but I found the movie to be exceptionally "meh". The pacing was pretty scattered. The CGI action scenes look worse and worse with each Marvel movie. I had trouble feeling much empathy for Cap and his cause and at the same time was annoyed by Stark's shortsightedness.

 

With all that said, there were some things that I liked:
1.) Scarlett-Vision (yay!)
2.) I love me some Paul Rudd, Ant Man was terrific in every scene he was in.

3.) Vision's turtleneck.
4.) They did a superb job with Black Panther (casting, writing, and the action scenes).

 

One other thought, poor Rhodey, the guy got the absolute shaft. That scene was a little tough to watch.

 

I'll hold back judgement on Spiderman, I like that they went with the younger less mature version of Peter Parker, I think it plays more true to Spiderman comics I loved as a kid. Also, I am ecstatic that they set it up so that Spiderman: Homecoming wont be a reboot of the origin story. And they went back to Peter making the webs, yay science!
 

[Master Elodin]

Which i guess is why they froze Bucky again.

I do think the psychological manipulation is a total will takeover. When the "psychologist" set Bucky loose halfway through the film, he later had absolutely no recollection of what happened. If he's recognised Cap in Winter Soldier, or remembered his name was Bucky, that movie would Have gone down very differently. "Under the influence" Bucky is basically a remote control puppet. I'm pretty sure he also didn't remember killing Tony's parents. And I don't think revenge is acceptable. The only one who really got that was Black Panther, and goodness that moment was glorious.

But he did almost recognize Cap.

[Vissy]

Spider-Man stole the show, IMO - not that I'm complaining, this movie made me fall in love with the character. Action sequences were really good and enjoyable, witty banter all around (Spidey does this really well) and a great revenge plot. Poor guy who fell out of the sky tho.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Reading through this thread I seem to be the minority, but I found the movie to be exceptionally "meh". The pacing was pretty scattered. The CGI action scenes look worse and worse with each Marvel movie. I had trouble feeling much empathy for Cap and his cause and at the same time was annoyed by Stark's shortsightedness.

 

I'll hold back judgement on Spiderman, I like that they went with the younger less mature version of Peter Parker, I think it plays more true to Spiderman comics I loved as a kid. Also, I am ecstatic that they set it up so that Spiderman: Homecoming wont be a reboot of the origin story. And they went back to Peter making the webs, yay science!

I can get that. It didn't have me on the edge of my seat like I was expecting it to but I'd still rewatch it. I found myself growing to like this Spidey, so i'm definitely interested in seeing his film. Scarlet Vision <3 and Vision in clothes is hilarious

[Mailliw73]

It got me thinking about, what crimes would we charge Superheroes if they obeyed laws like normal people?

After all, Cap is just a tough, morally-righteous guy with a shield, what makes him better, from an objective third perspective, than a random off the street who might also have a shield and a sense of morality?

The fact that you can't just stop him with a gun.

I really liked this movie. Like Delightful said, the feels were intense. The whole final fight was crazy. Multiple times I thought for sure one of them was about to snap and just kill the other.

I actually didn't like Scarlet Vision. It's...weird. I don't know why, but I really don't like it.

Ant-Man and Vision kinda just bothered me in this one. They didn't seem to do much and annoyed me for some weird reason.

Black Panther was great. I really liked him. His fighting, his character, all of it. Spider-Man was better than normal. I'm really not a Spiderman fan at all; I usually just don't like him. But I'm willing to give this one a shot. He did pretty well in this movie.

I went in Team Cap. I came out Team Cap. Before, I could understand Tony's side, but now I actually sympathize with it. I see his arguments and I love how they show his emotions. The moments I like best of Iron Man is when they peel away the sarcastic, arrogant chull and show his anger or sadness or loss. Both the scenes where he talks about Pepper and the ones with his parents were heartwrenching. I loved them.

I also thought someone should've died. Any one. I've heard that Cap dies in the comics, so that's what I was expecting, but no. Not one dies.

[Delightful]

But he did almost recognize Cap.

He recognised Cap, barely, because he knew cap before the brainwashing. His memories of cap seems to be the only thing not completely blanked out by the mind control.

So I went in team cap and came out team cap and......I don't really see iron mans side of things. Maybe I missed subtleties I'll pick up on a re-watch but seriously stark is pretending to be rational but he's acting just as emotionally as Cap. and is trying to force his decision on everyone.

I was also expecting someone to die, it would have massively raised the stakes. Peggy's death was heartbreaking, but doesn't count because it was independent of inter-character tension. I find it pretty hard to believe Rhodey survived that fall. He fell like 10 storeys!

Edited May 7, 2016 by Delightful

[Blackhoof]

Not justified but it's certainly understandable, much like caps decision to protect Bucky. It's illegal, he had no logical grounds for doing so, he nearly murdered a bunch of his friends but he acted based on an understandable emotion of wanting to protect a friend.

 

Also I really don't get the brainwashed defense. This wasn't a supernatural body takeover or scarlet witch producing visions, this was solely through psychological manipulation. Yeah it's understandable that it worked but it's not as simple as not being in control, he technically did those things entirely of his own will. Yes his will was manipulated but that doesn't make it excusable.

 

Also Bucky was a dangerous wanted fugitive who repeatedly resisted arrest, has proven he can escape from jail and is a mass murderer, whatever the circumstances behind that may be. Lethal force is kinda the only way to actually make sure you do stop him.

 

well I suppose it is entirely subjective, but from what we've seen it was indeed a complete mind-wipe. We can't assume that Hydra did it with techniques of brainwashing we know exist today- they have the ability to wipe his memory, and completely take over his body with a pass phrase. He literally can't remember what happens, and has no personal control beyond the boundaries of his orders.

 

They might as well be using a superpower to control him, it seems like it would have the same effects.

 

So i don't think Bucky is at all responsible for his actions- when being controlled, of course.

 

 

But he did almost recognize Cap.

 

yeah, the only person he knows he has ever seen since his capture, and his best friend from before then.

 

 

The fact that you can't just stop him with a gun.

......

I also thought someone should've died. Any one. I've heard that Cap dies in the comics, so that's what I was expecting, but no. Not one dies.

 

well if he didn't have his shield we could stop him- he should die to a gunshot like any other human.

 

 

yeah, definitely someone should have died. At least Rhodey, that's what I expected.

And even his spinal injury is semi-resolved thanks to Tony being able to make him an exo-skeleton to walk.

 

 

I was also expecting someone to die, it would have massively raised the stakes. Peggy's death was heartbreaking, but doesn't count because it was independent of inter-character tension. I find it pretty hard to believe Rhodey survived that fall. He fell like 10 storeys!

 

oh he fell far more than 10 storeys

[Delightful]

Kinda hard to judge distance. What I meant to convey was: that was a freaking long way and no way he survived that.

[Vissy]

Guess the suut is magical

[Voidus]

well I suppose it is entirely subjective, but from what we've seen it was indeed a complete mind-wipe. We can't assume that Hydra did it with techniques of brainwashing we know exist today- they have the ability to wipe his memory, and completely take over his body with a pass phrase. He literally can't remember what happens, and has no personal control beyond the boundaries of his orders.

 

They might as well be using a superpower to control him, it seems like it would have the same effects.

 

So i don't think Bucky is at all responsible for his actions- when being controlled, of course.

Even so, when people lose their memories they don't suddenly become a different person. Yes there's some leeway to take into account, once judged by a trained psychologist he might be recommended for psychiatric help rather than jail but he's still insanely dangerous and whether you think they're the same person or different people you still need to deal with the person who has gone around murdering people. We have legal procedures for people with extenuating psychological circumstances, you don't get to just break someone out of prison because you personally disagree with how it's happened so far.

[DSC01]

Keep in mind that their supermax underwater prison is a secret facility that is intended to hold supers indefinitely and with no trial. That is a total violation of the law and a fairly immediate vindication of Cap's position.

The whole basis of the Accords is really flimsy, anyway. "We need a governing body to decide when and how you go on missions." Uh... Okay, so how would that have helped matters in the examples given? Who else was supposed to fight aliens in New York? The only way Sokovia could have gone better is if they had stopped Ultron from being created in the first place. Who else could have stopped the killer robot planning to wipe out all life on earth? If the Sokovia Accords had been in place before, either things would have turned out almost exactly the same, or they would have been waaaaay worse.

That's not a criticism of the movie, by the way. I loved the movie.

[Voidus]

Keep in mind that their supermax underwater prison is a secret facility that is intended to hold supers indefinitely and with no trial. That is a total violation of the law and a fairly immediate vindication of Cap's position.

The whole basis of the Accords is really flimsy, anyway. "We need a governing body to decide when and how you go on missions." Uh... Okay, so how would that have helped matters in the examples given? Who else was supposed to fight aliens in New York? The only way Sokovia could have gone better is if they had stopped Ultron from being created in the first place. Who else could have stopped the killer robot planning to wipe out all life on earth? If the Sokovia Accords had been in place before, either things would have turned out almost exactly the same, or they would have been waaaaay worse.

That's not a criticism of the movie, by the way. I loved the movie.

Depends which country it's in. It's not unlike a lot of prisons that exist around the world. But the correct thing to do in that situation is to argue that they should be given a trial, not to immediately break them out, become a criminal yourself, assault a bunch of people (Realistically a lot of whom would have then died) and go on the run.

 

Caps position is far more flimsy, just trust that these guys with world-ending powers will always do what is right and lawful? Despite the fact that they continually don't. If you just say that they should be given limitless free reign and no accountability then how are they any better than the people they fight? Sure their morals might line up with yours more but that's not a reason, after all Hydra got a bunch of people who agreed with their morals, didn't make them the good guys.

[Quiver]

Out if curiosity, did anyone else sit through the film convinced Tony was gonna die?

I mean... I get that it was a joke. But I figured his line about his arm feeling weird was foreshadowing that something would happen to his heart and he'd die by movies end.

And, adding to the above points of Team Iron Man...so far, the MCU has been very lucky. Their heroes have, generally, been able to control their powers...

But they are adults. The introduction of Spider-Man indicates a new generation, a generation that's grown up in a world where superheroes unquestionably exist and operate.

Frankly, you could argue that it's the Avengers responsibility to set a proper example for this next gen, lest you get teens gaining powers they can't control and exercising vigilante justice because, well, "that's how it works".

[Iarwainiel I]

Quiver kinda beat me to it, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway: I'm calling Tony Stark for a redshirt, by the end of the 2 Thanos movies - - either that, or he'll have some kind of major health issue that will send Iron Man into immediate and permanent retirement (and possibly reunite Tony with Pepper?).

 

Very much enjoyed Ant Man, Spidey, and Black Panther, and especially all the humor! I love it when the movie is so new that everyone in the audience still laughs out loud at the jokes. :-)

 

I liked the movie and will probably see it a couple more times. No, it's not superb, but it's way better than I expected.

[Voidus]

I enjoyed Ant man a lot more in this than I did in Ant man, I think they went to far with the sci-fi attempting explanations thing in that movie and that always annoys me.

[Mestiv]

Walked into the cinema as Team Iron Man and left as Team Iron Man

 

I really don't get it how Captain America just knows he's right, his friend must be innocent and everyone else is wrong. Why not give the Accords a shot? If it turns out bad, you'll just break the rules like you do anyway when destroying lot's of stuff and killing plenty of people. It really annoyed me that Cap didn't have any self-doubt or moral dilemma about Avengers actions so far. The accident in Lagos was an accident, sure, but I strongly believe that a well trained and well informed squad of anti-terrorists including snipers would do a much better job at intercepting those terrorists. Destroying much less property and endangering far less lives.

 

Although I'm on Iron Man's side I didn't agree with his attack on Bucky after seeing the video. I thought that at that point he already understood that Bucky could be "mind-controlled" to do anything. His anger at Cap and Bucky was understandable, but with such high IQ I expected Tony to have a bit more control over his reactions etc.

 

Through most of the movie I had an impression, that if they would just stop for 20 minutes and talk, they would be able to easily find a nice solution to all their problems. It was almost like one big misunderstanding :/

 

Now, who can tell me what exactly are Vision's powers? He can pass through walls and shoot laser from his forehead, anything else? He has a freaking Infinity Stone or what-are-they-called in his forehead... he should be able to destroy planets...

 

Scarlet Witch is just OP. She could have obliterated whole Iron Man Team in seconds using the levels of power she used to push Vision underground or stop the control tower from falling. What actually made her throw people around instead of just freezing them in place?

 

Black Panther was great, the last moment when he gives up his vengeance was one of the best in the movie.

 

Spider-Man was funny. That's all.

 

EDIT:

Edited May 9, 2016 by Mestiv

[DSC01]

Depends which country it's in. It's not unlike a lot of prisons that exist around the world. But the correct thing to do in that situation is to argue that they should be given a trial, not to immediately break them out, become a criminal yourself, assault a bunch of people (Realistically a lot of whom would have then died) and go on the run.

 

Caps position is far more flimsy, just trust that these guys with world-ending powers will always do what is right and lawful? Despite the fact that they continually don't. If you just say that they should be given limitless free reign and no accountability then how are they any better than the people they fight? Sure their morals might line up with yours more but that's not a reason, after all Hydra got a bunch of people who agreed with their morals, didn't make them the good guys.

 

In real life, sure. But in real life, if people had super powers, they probably wouldn't use them to fight crime. If they did, pretty much every government would freak out and kill them IMMEDIATELY, and most people would think that they did the right thing. Superhero movies are all about the fantasy that people can have great power and act on their own to use it responsibly. You can play with that to varying degrees in superhero properties, but ultimately, you can't really be 100% true to life.

 

The thing with breaking them out prison--I don't know. With most prisons in the world, once someone is stuck there, it is almost impossible to get them out. I don't want to turn this into a big political debate, as this isn't the forum for such discussions, but in a world where people do have the power to break someone out of prison by just punching some guys and not seriously hurting them (that's the conceit, anyway, even though it wouldn't happen like that in real life), I don't know--is that really so wrong? I know that may seem like a crazy question, but is it really okay to let an innocent person rot in prison for years on end, while you politely petition authorities to do the right thing and they ignore you? In a world where punching your way to justice is par for the course?

 

Obviously, I don't think it's right to violently break people out of prison. However, in the world of superheroes, it just might be.That's a superhero's job, after all--acting independently to correct injustice, in a way that would be wildly illegal in real life. 

[Delightful]

This isn't a political thread per se, but this kind of movie is meant to get people thinking; I don't think this kind of discussion is out of place. That's just my two cents, for now.