Isles of the Emberdark Full Reactions

[VersatileThrenodite he/him]

39 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

That was something that really bugged me about this story.  It feels like a continuation of something very bad we saw hints of beginning in RoW and exploding onto the scene in full force in WaT: bleakness.

WaT was supposed to feel bleak, but even in that bleakness there are rays of hope and potential for the future.

 

42 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The Malwish have turned into evil imperialist overlords and conquered half the Cosmere.  The Rosharans under Odium are conquering the other half and seem to legitimately consider it generous to tax their subjects at a rate of 99% and "let them keep" the last 1%.

I'm not sure we can paint a picture of the whole planet or even the faction these people represent. I'm not sure Odium or Retribution are still in charge of Roshar not to mention the only Rosharan we've seen so far was solo and a member of the Skybreakers who've already been shown to be hardliners in the timeline of the books.

 

48 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Nazh is dead. 

He doesn't seem to mind so much.

 

48 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Frost is missing, presumed dead.

I choose to be hopeful like Starling and view his absence from the Eternal Shores as an indication he's alive

 

50 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Hoid is locked up, unable to help anyone.

So he's just about as useful as usual? He doesn't seem to concerned or he probably would have tried giving starling a hint at where he is.

 

52 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Though we don't know the exact details, it's clear that the dragons exiled Starling for something involving trying to be compassionate to mortals rather than lord over them as a draconic tyrant.

Brandon's Dragons seem to be a combination of Tolkien's most discompasionite elves mixed with biblical angels. It sounds like their society has only gotten more calcified as the moderating voices in dragon society have died or cut themselves off from the cosmere. Its almost a stereotype of Brandon's at this point to have a protagonist that's diametrically opposed to their society. I felt it was pretty obvious from Starling's pov that her culture is stagnating and dyeing because they refuse to take part in the affairs of mortals.

 

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

It almost feels like Brandon is forgetting that so many of his fans read the Cosmere, and not trash like ASOIAF, because it is not trash like ASOIAF.  Bleakness and "grimdark" have no legitimate place in epic fantasy, and the Cosmere was one of the best refuges from that ugly trend.

Was.

It's ok to no longer feel like a series is for you. But I would argue the current state of the Cosmere is not much bleaker than it was during Mistborn era one.

[Argent he/him]

On 7/3/2025 at 1:43 PM, VersatileThrenodite said:

What sort of Arcanistry do you think the Silverlight Argent gets up to?

I've been telling people that it's research into how silver works in the cosmere, I think that's a worthy pursuit! 

[Argenti he/him]

35 minutes ago, Argent said:

I've been telling people that it's research into how silver works in the cosmere, I think that's a worthy pursuit! 

Yes. I agree. Silver is so cool.

[lordofsoup]

I liked it but it wasn’t great. The whole Dusk flashbacks seemed unnecessary. The Dakwara being the solution to the scadrians was too obvious the moment it showed up and the ended was kind of the obvious solution.  It was cool seeing some of the broader cosmere stuff

 

also forgot this one.  the facists line was ridiculous.  just bad writing.  

Edited July 7, 2025 by lordofsoup

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

That was something that really bugged me about this story.  It feels like a continuation of something very bad we saw hints of beginning in RoW and exploding onto the scene in full force in WaT: bleakness.

As opposed to worlds where regularly 90% of the population die in war or its aftermath? Or where the underclass consists of slaves which are regularly culled in mass executions? Or worlds where deeply inhaling can kill you? Or worlds where religious fanatics use people as fuel for ritual magic?

Brandon hasn't become bleaker. He just spreads the damage more evenly.

9 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Virtually everything about the wider milieu of this setting sucks.  The Malwish have turned into evil imperialist overlords and conquered half the Cosmere.  The Rosharans under Odium are conquering the other half and seem to legitimately consider it generous to tax their subjects at a rate of 99% and "let them keep" the last 1%. 

What do you think the Herdazians thought about the Alethi?

The life of average citizens has become better. You can buy a ticket to another world, albeit at a high expense. You can get feruchemical healing. You can get a job that doubles your life span.

10 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Was.

OK, I have to state something basic. Man is subject to conflicts. This planet has been living with nuclear deterrence for decades. In the last few decades some countries have turned to thinking that nuclear weapons no longer matter, but the general peace they guaranteed is for free.

Nothing of that is true. If you do not introduce an equivalent of nuclear deterrence, you will continue war between the great powers. And that has a simple consequence. The strong give orders and the weak take orders.
Nothing about this is new in the Cosmere. In Rathalas we saw what happens if they refuse the orders they are given. Brandon has just ceased cherry-picking stories.

[Hoids4thApprentice he/him]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. Though you are still not suspicious enough. We are looking for a spy for a southern continent ...

Though they are obviously all spies. Where do you think Huio's cousins live? Obviously he is working for Sja-Anat.

Nope ... Huio is a red herring. The one I have my eye on is Jess. She isn't even listed as an arcanist in the acknwledgments but mysteriously turns up a the University anyway ... suspicious if you ask me!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 hours ago, Argent said:

I've been telling people that it's research into how silver works in the cosmere, I think that's a worthy pursuit! 

So you have been telling ...
I've noticed the subtle avoidance of saying "doing".

You are working for the Ghostbloods! Confess!

6 hours ago, Hoids4thApprentice said:

Nope ... Huio is a red herring. The one I have my eye on is Jess. She isn't even listed as an arcanist in the acknwledgments but mysteriously turns up a the University anyway ... suspicious if you ask me!

Do not trust them. There is always another secret a.k.a. traitor. They are all traitors.

[Ewery1]

20 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

That was something that really bugged me about this story.  It feels like a continuation of something very bad we saw hints of beginning in RoW and exploding onto the scene in full force in WaT: bleakness.

Virtually everything about the wider milieu of this setting sucks.  The Malwish have turned into evil imperialist overlords and conquered half the Cosmere.  The Rosharans under Odium are conquering the other half and seem to legitimately consider it generous to tax their subjects at a rate of 99% and "let them keep" the last 1%.  Nazh is dead.  Frost is missing, presumed dead.  Hoid is locked up, unable to help anyone.  Though we don't know the exact details, it's clear that the dragons exiled Starling for something involving trying to be compassionate to mortals rather than lord over them as a draconic tyrant.  The Evil overran Threnody and is now spreading anti-Investiture monsters throughout the Cosmere.  And so on...

It almost feels like Brandon is forgetting that so many of his fans read the Cosmere, and not trash like ASOIAF, because it is not trash like ASOIAF.  Bleakness and "grimdark" have no legitimate place in epic fantasy, and the Cosmere was one of the best refuges from that ugly trend.

Was.

Idk, Scadrial in Era 1 was EXTREMELY bleak. This is not outside of Brandon's style at all - but I think the key to Brandon's work is that the world may be bleak but we prevail anyways.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Ewery1 said:

Idk, Scadrial in Era 1 was EXTREMELY bleak. This is not outside of Brandon's style at all - but I think the key to Brandon's work is that the world may be bleak but we prevail anyways.

Well, modern Brandon is more honest. And, most important, wordier. He could have split The Final Empire into two books and stopped the first book at the Skaa army being wiped out. And then left his readers with that cilffhanger for the better part of a decade.

Islands of the Emberdark is considerably less bleak than Hero of Ages if you go by body count. I mean less than fifty people die in the whole book. Hero of Ages is bloodier by a small factor of a million, give or take. Now, is modern Brandon more honest in showing the suffering?
Possibly, yes, he is. That is the fundamental issue if you write a war story. Both sides are people and at least one of them has to lose. You cannot write a war ending without one side losing hope, because that is how and why wars end. Earlier books could sort crank up the losses to numbers which go beyond the imaginable for most people. If you get the deaths into the millions, you turn them into a statistic. And he had the escape of letting most of his book take place in nations isolated from possible foes or letting them be about averting a war. Deaths could be made to seem like accidents or freak acts of nature, rather than individual horrors.

That is no longer possible if the great opening of Shadesmar to everybody is to happen. It means that people with conflicting interests will come into contact. They will act by the logic of power politics because they have to if they want to survive and thrive.

This means that you'll have two groups of readers. Those for whom the strategy of turning the megadeths of the earlier books into statistics worked. And those for whom it didn't. The first group will see death and despair creeping into the stories, while the second group will calmly do the math and scratch their heads at the firsty group.

[Mason Wheeler]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

As opposed to worlds where regularly 90% of the population die in war or its aftermath? Or where the underclass consists of slaves which are regularly culled in mass executions? Or worlds where deeply inhaling can kill you? Or worlds where religious fanatics use people as fuel for ritual magic?

That's the thing.  There was plenty of darkness in earlier books, but the darkness gave the light something to shine in!  Both The Final Empire and The Way of Kings were all about a hero facing horrible circumstances and triumphing and making things better.

That was not what Wind And Truth was about, and this story tells us that all of that "making things better" comes to naught in the end, that Scadrial and Roshar do not improve in the long run but both turn into horrible places.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

That's the thing.  There was plenty of darkness in earlier books, but the darkness gave the light something to shine in!  Both The Final Empire and The Way of Kings were all about a hero facing horrible circumstances and triumphing and making things better.

At the risk of repeating myself: Ask any Parshman whether Roshar has improved. In Mistborn and Warbreaker Brandon cheated by having either an insane magic entity or zombies pay the price for the victory of the side you were supposed to favour.

To be blunt, by rescuing Dalinar Kholin Kaladin in a sense validated all the atrocities of the Blackthorn. That cheating is coming to an end and must come to an end. If real people clash, one side must lose. And the smaller powers will suffer.

[VersatileThrenodite he/him]

5 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

That was not what Wind And Truth was about, and this story tells us that all of that "making things better" comes to naught in the end, that Scadrial and Roshar do not improve in the long run but both turn into horrible places.

I must have missed the place where Brandon wrote this is the finale of the cosmere. A lot of media will paper over the fact that progress isn't linear or uniform in order to tell a more palatable story. In fact a subtheme of this book was the positive and negative aspects of technological progress. Sixth's inner monologue was constantly weighing the pros and cons of his growing irrelevance in a safer modern world.

Personally I believe that "making things better" is a constant struggle and should never be taken for granted. I still see plenty of light at the end of the tunnel for our heroes.

 

Its always darkest before the dawn. Even the darkest nights will end etc... 

 

I'm also holding out hope that we just keep seeing the worst actors representing these planets and not the average person living there. 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, VersatileThrenodite said:

I must have missed the place where Brandon wrote this is the finale of the cosmere. A lot of media will paper over the fact that progress isn't linear or uniform in order to tell a more palatable story. In fact a subtheme of this book was the positive and negative aspects of technological progress. Sixth's inner monologue was constantly weighing the pros and cons of his growing irrelevance in a safer modern world.

Personally I believe that "making things better" is a constant struggle and should never be taken for granted. I still see plenty of light at the end of the tunnel for our heroes.

I am afraid that saying what makes things better is hard as well. I am sure the things the Ones Above have brought have lowered infant mortality, reduced polution and saved quite some people from harsh labor conditions.
If we go to another planet I notice a suspicious absence of people critical of House Kholin for unifying Alethkar with naked violence.

4 hours ago, VersatileThrenodite said:

I'm also holding out hope that we just keep seeing the worst actors representing these planets and not the average person living there. 

They are making war, sort of. They are making a limited war of small forces very hard to supply and transport. You will see extreme forms of selection bias among the troops. Including people whose capabilities do not justify their ambitions.

[lacrossedeamon]

57 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If we go to another planet I notice a suspicious absence of people critical of House Kholin for unifying Alethkar with naked violence.

Naked is sexy.

58 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that saying what makes things better is hard as well. I am sure the things the Ones Above have brought have lowered infant mortality, reduced polution and saved quite some people from harsh labor conditions.

I will say I doubt it reduced pollution. Contact with the Ones Above jump started or at least turbocharged the Eelakin Industrial Revolution. That tends to lead to more pollution, not less. Labor conditions can be iffy, most likely it transitioned from a workshop system to a factory system which can come with its own hazards. I do agree with the medical benefits.

[Forts Board]

eh, i thought it was a really good book

[Ripheus23]

On 7/6/2025 at 4:01 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

Bleakness and "grimdark" have no legitimate place in epic fantasy, and the Cosmere was one of the best refuges from that ugly trend.

There's this prominent (well, most prominent in his field I suppose) director Hayao Miyazaki who inarguably influenced Sanderson, and who said something once like, "We depict horrors, to then depict the joy of liberation/salvation." One of his movies has a baby animal being tortured near the end, for minutes and minutes on end, while a horrible demon from the ancient world awaken and unleashes nuclear fire before its arc is completed. The manga behind that movie is even darker, especially in the end. At any rate, though, Miyazaki's stories can go from bad to worse but still end up with relief or even redemption.

Another Sanderson influence is the Thomas Covenant multi-series. Book one, we're shown a beautiful society in a beautiful world, albeit the "hero" does despicable things already. Things get worse throughout book 2, then the meager victory in book 2 is wiped out by the premise of book 3, then the major victory in book 3 is wiped out by possibly the grimmest, darkest story in fantasy history as of book 4 (through 6) (we'll see if Retribution's Roshar follows suit, though), and then all the way in book 10... they win. Not perfectly, but they do. There are millennia of genocides and tyrannies and betrayals, the works, but they win.

So, to say that Sanderson is "going grimdark" (I think he's said he will in a Threnody novel, though) would be to predict that all the mounting nightmares of the cosmere will result in everyone dying, or being irredeemably corrupted, or consumed by hell, or whatever, like (so far) what has happened in the Second Apocalypse books (which are truly, deeply "grimdark tales...). Now I myself love Sanderson's books way, way more than Bakker's, but I don't hate Bakker's. If new Second Apocalypse books are released, I would be willing to read them. So I wouldn't say I am drawn to happy-ending fantasy to the same extent that I am repelled by horrible-ending fantasy. All the happy-ending books that have been written and will be written, will continue to be read, there's not some deeper significance to other future books being horrible-ending ones is there? The book market isn't a social zero-sum game like that???

[Use the Falchion]

My reactions from July 1 from Reddit, along with some added notes:

 

Firstly, CONGRATS TO THE ARCANISTS FOR MAKING CANON APPEARANCES! I caught, Argent (of course), Chaos (Professor Lake) and Jenn, but I’m sure there were a few more I missed. Great job y’all! 

I really enjoyed how much lore we got about First of the Sun, and how it all tied together. Dusk really shined in this book, and Isles does a great job of expanding on the gem that was his character in the original novella. 

Starling was a treat, and I really hope she succeeds in her ultimate goal! Also, I’m still convinced Spensa was either based on Starling or was originally Starling before she moved to the Cytoverse.

Captain Crow was a hilarious confirmation, and I love how it teased out her previous story without spoiling it. She really needs to find a new occupation though. (Maybe freshwater biologist? Drink the water as she’s diving? …it’s a joke…)

The Cosmere lore drops were INSANE. Ambition Splinters? Scadrial civil war that’s bled into space? (If I was reading that correctly.) The Grand Apparatus??* VAX MENTIONS?!**

Overall a solid read. I'd still rate Sunlit and Yumi above Isles in terms of Secret Projects, and it’s about where Frugal Wizard is for me (which I REALLY enjoyed), but that’s still all an “A” for my tastes. I’m sure once I find the right theme song or playlist to listen to on rereads, it’ll rise for me. [ADDED NOTE - One of my best friends finished the book a day or two later, and he loved it. He rates it as his favorite Secret Project book. His order is: Isles, Sunlit, Yumi, Tress, Wizard.]

Tomorrow, onto The Pilot by Will Wight, and the back to Chains by Nicoli Gonnella!

*It feels like Brandon’s “beastly epic 200-300k word Secret Project” is also The Grand Apparatus. I wouldn’t think this would be a Hoid book, but considering what Starling thought, it could be. It could also be Sanderson keeping his options open.

I also REALLY want a few more books out of Sanderson now. I want a story continuing the adventures of the crew. (And meeting Zellion of course!) I also want Kingmaker, the YA novel set on First of the Sun, to also finally work. We need more books on this setting! Finally, I want that YA Kite-based magic system. I think one of the throwaway lines by Ed mentioned a planet with freezing winds, and my first thought was “Kite-Based Magic System!” So I wonder if that’s the place.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Argent (of course), Chaos (Professor Lake) and Jenn

Jess in shambles right now

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I've finally read the book, after about a week or two of practically pretending that I did.

I loved it, I loved the characters, the setting, the ending, the lore, the future implications, all of it.

I hope we get to see more of Dusk and Starling at some point, maybe in Mistborn Era 4.

So much implied stuff for later books, like Sazed pulling off something that no other Shard has, everything about Starling's backstory and how Nazh died, whatever the heck is going on with Frost, Khriss is back on Taldain (With some of Autonomy's territories being considered 'Old', so maybe she's had to downsize her plans?), Vaxillians, the Grand Apparatus which sounds almost like Aperture Science on a global scale with the shifting rooms and experiments and what not, and so much more.

The Malwish Empire doesn't seem to bode well for Era 3, but it's stated to be a dominant power on Scadrial, not the, so I'm holding out hope that my favorite world hasn't gone full Star Wars Empire level bad. Or at least some kind of Anti-Malwish Scadrian resistance groups.

Dusk's journey was definitely the highlight of the book, not to say that I didn't enjoy what Starling was doing, but a mere jailbreak plot tends to pale compared to a plucky adventurer uncovering ancient world changing lore and taming a giant god-snake.

Oh yeah and the fact that the Silverlight Nexus leads to three different planets somehow?! With one of them being Yolen! 

So many mor secrets to learn, Kelsier is proven more right with every book.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

I've finished the first book, its a lot and its really good. I just started Starling's story part and wonder how the parts are going to combine later, it's going to be crazy.

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 7/5/2025 at 7:25 AM, alder24 said:

Malwish are dominant on Scadrial and they hold a firm grip on the vast section of Cosmere and Shadesmar, they seem to win the cold war in Era 3

My two cents are that while it is likely that the Malwish dominate Scadrial, it's not guaranteed. They are still frequently referred to as the Malwish Empire and we haven't actually seen that much of them. They don't appear to possess large amounts of Metalborn and technology is mentioned as being in North Scadrian, implying that the Basin is a somewhat independent and technologically advanced polity. I doubt the Malwish, being described as fascist, would have promoted North Scadrian to the level of being the Scadrian language of science. As I mentioned in another thread, they could be similar to the United States or "America" and take the namesake of Scadrial without actually dominating the planet. What I think Brandon is doing is making it unclear for the reader if Scadrial is unified or the Malwish are dominant in order to preserve tension in era 3.

[teknopathetic he/him]

This read like YA, but not as good as his actual Young Adult Fiction 

[Forts Board]

If things never start to get really bad, then they can never truly get good again. Its the same idea in Lord of the Rings when Frodo claims the ring and all is lost, and so when we get this incredible ending it just hits even harder

 

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

Uhhh I really liked the book, just finished, freaked out so many times (crow, Nazh dying, HUIO, arcanists, frost missing, HOID MARRIED??, etc.)

Missed Threnody being apparently overrun, can somebody tell me where that was?

Also, SHARDGUN!!!!

[TwinStorm He/Him]

This book is mid

its great from the perspective of a Cosmere lore drop, but the actually storytelling and narrative is incredibly mid

it comes together somewhat at the end, but at the beginning, the prose feels too basic, especially with Starling's crew, which laid her Mary Sue-ness on thick

Dusk was cool and all, but Starling just dragged the story down