Final Pre-Release Chapter

[StanLemon]

30 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think it's too late for that unless he wants to do what he did with WoR and fix it in post, but I don't think it's that big a deal. Further evidence that this is an error is that the epigraphs in RoW were tilted "Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days." during which he says he looks forward to leading the humans yet he only gets that power in this interlude which is after the end of Day 2. Unless this is supposed to be the first day, but positioned in the book after the 2nd. 

Interludes don't necessarily have to take place on the same day. It's entirely possible that they had this conversation on day one

[The Sovereign]

36 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think it's too late for that unless he wants to do what he did with WoR and fix it in post, but I don't think it's that big a deal. Further evidence that this is an error is that the epigraphs in RoW were tilted "Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days." during which he says he looks forward to leading the humans yet he only gets that power in this interlude which is after the end of Day 2. Unless this is supposed to be the first day, but positioned in the book after the 2nd. 

The musings on the first day don't have to be specifically referring to him have control over the humans that he gained in this Interlude. Presumably El knows the details of the Conflict of Champions and what the contract says. Working with the assumption that the Odium will win, then he knows as a Fused who is sane (even stripped of his Title and Rhythms) he would be placed above the vast majority of Odium's post victory forces.

[Isilel]

Wow, these are not the Interludes that I expected to see today! I thought that we'd get the 2 that had been read previously.

Anyway, El is absolutely great here and Dai-Gonarthis sounds very intriguing. Granted, Sja-Anat is trying to become independent of Odium, but she has to do it subtly and behind his back. But Dai-Gonarthis can actually extract a _price_ from him? Oh, and BTW, isn't it very interesting that there are no Enlightened Radiants with Transportation in his service yet? And Shinovar isn't in his grasp yet either, despite the presence of an (the?) Unmade and of how it seemed when they broke off communications with Dalinar, hence no honorblades, hm...

I am so curious about what the original deal between Odium and the Fused actually entailed. I thought that he promised to remove the humans from Roshar, since he intended to use them as his legions for the conquest of the cosmere, as per what he told Dalinar in OB. And certainly, some of the Fused clearly expect for the humans to be eliminated from their planet one way or another. But Todium's promise to El seems to argue against it... 

Also, nice to have an explanation for why the singer fleet was where it was. So, ROdium intended to attack the honorspren instead of Azir. 

I begin to think that Cultivation foresaw that splintering Odium would lead to even worse consequences than handing it off to Taravangian... And that she will end up by picking up Odium herself. Possibly in the second half of the SA. We have already seen Shards changing hands to new holders and a new Vessel combining 2 Shards. But what would happen if an old Vessel does so? Or even, instead of combining, switches them?

[Wanguu He/Him]

These were great interludes! I'm again bothered by the prevalence of anti-light TWO DAYS after it was discovered! And I wonder what Cultivation was showing Odium that he ignored?

 

Anyways, it's been amazing ride. I'm glad I was here for the preview chapters this time and got to discuss with everyone! Cheers!

[who_slew_aicirtap she/they]

15 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Did anyone else get Thrawn vibes from El? 

Thrawn is my favorite character in anything ever, so I'm excited to see more of El. 

I wonder if Hoid is going to end up at the Shattered Plains with Sigzil in this book, or if the events that lead to Sunlit Man happen in the back half instead.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Ewery1 said:

That El chapter was so insanely cool. I think the oath made to let him rule over human lands will be a surprise shocker - it seemed to me at least like perhaps he wants to then set them free. Also, what’s in the Shattered Plains? Is it Honor? Are the plains shattered like his psyche? Is that why his perpendicularity is so unstable?

(The Sunlit Man)

Spoiler

Sigzil will have born a dawnshard. It is the one Hoid bore.

Hence I conclude that there's at least a second dawnshard on Roshar and it is in the Shattered Plains. In fact it may be the reason and the means by which they have been, well, shattered.

[+Child of Hodor]

14 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

The musings on the first day don't have to be specifically referring to him have control over the humans that he gained in this Interlude. Presumably El knows the details of the Conflict of Champions and what the contract says. Working with the assumption that the Odium will win, then he knows as a Fused who is sane (even stripped of his Title and Rhythms) he would be placed above the vast majority of Odium's post victory forces.

It's hard for me to buy that he was writing about ruling the humans before Odium deemed him "Ruler" in this chapter. Ruler was Odium's flourish not El's.  El refers to himself ruling the humans twice.  Why would he assume he'd get to march at the head of a human legion specifically when he has been in the dog house for so long? 

Quote

Again not a huge deal, but the best handwave is that this was taking place on Day 1 and it's just shown to us out of order.

[The Sovereign]

3 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

It's hard for me to buy that he was writing about ruling the humans before Odium deemed him "Ruler" in this chapter. Ruler was Odium's flourish not El's.  El refers to himself ruling the humans twice.  Why would he assume he'd get to march at the head of a human legion specifically when he has been in the dog house for so long? 

Again not a huge deal, but the best handwave is that this was taking place on Day 1 and it's just shown to us out of order.

You've convinced me. I agree, this is likely just shown out of order.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Again not a huge deal, but the best handwave is that this was taking place on Day 1 and it's just shown to us out of order.

The problem with that assumption is that the elimination of the pursuer very much looked like a weapons test. Do you really need to urgently retest a weapon after you've killed a Herald with it?

[Ewery1]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

(The Sunlit Man)

  Hide contents

Sigzil will have born a dawnshard. It is the one Hoid bore.

Hence I conclude that there's at least a second dawnshard on Roshar and it is in the Shattered Plains. In fact it may be the reason and the means by which they have been, well, shattered.

Yeahhhhhhhh this is right

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

After El's interlude I'm sure the musings we read on epigraphs of the part 5 of ROW were written after the day 2 of Wnd and Truth

They look very much connected to what happened on today's interlude:

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“If I do, can I rule human lands for you?”

“If that is your wish, I will grant it.”

He even mentions he was start thinking a new Poem

Quote

What an enchanting day. In his head, he began to compose a poem to celebrate this new god he was delighted to worship. Someone who, he suspected, would know the value of what he had—and would let El help humankind finally realize their true passions.

This is not unheard of. Dalinar only starts writing "Oathbringer" after the book ends, and so did "Rythmn of War" epigraphs written during the events of the book

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem with that assumption is that the elimination of the pursuer very much looked like a weapons test. Do you really need to urgently retest a weapon after you've killed a Herald with it?

I think there is an explanation to be had. It very well could have been that Odium revived him early to be used as a test subject to show the Fuzed that the new weapon works, but that El took it upon himself to do said test. Once confirmed, he went to the vault and this scene played out. Afterwards, El has his musings. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Well now I think El was the one who Taln replaced as a herald 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem with that assumption is that the elimination of the pursuer very much looked like a weapons test. Do you really need to urgently retest a weapon after you've killed a Herald with it?

The way I see it, it went like this:

1. Pursuer dies, goes to Braize
2. El is reborn on Day 1, immediately destroys Jezrien's soul remnants
   1. This shows that the anti-light was able to clash with the remaining stormlight in the gem, which he assumes is what is left of Jezrien. However, the other Herald's already felt that he was dead and gone. Sure it works as an initial test, but this doesn't prove explicitly what will happen if a fused is stabbed with an anti-voidlight knife
3. El has his chat with Odium, realizes that it is a new vessel, everything we just read today happens
4. El writes his musings on Day 1 - they are called the musings on day 1, and we know that immediately after his encounter with Odium is when he chose to write them
   1. Therefore we can deduce that this encounter was taking place on Day 1
5. El likely has his confrontation with the 9, explaining that he is in charge now, and then proceeds with the ritual rebirth / summoning thing for the Pursuer / defeated one, still on Day 1
   1. This works as both a further test of anti-light, as well as a test for the fused specifically. They must have had reports / information sent by Raboniel before she died with the details (she was adamant it was important to get the info out asap, which is how they had some made so quickly). But it makes sense that they would want to both punish the defeated one and see firsthand what would happen to one of them if they were stabbed. Separate test from the killing of Jezrien's remnants.

I get that the interludes get clunky if we try to take them in order based on when they pop up in the books, but I also think it's ok for the interludes to be non-chronological and just focused on providing additional historical or future information when we need it in the text, regardless of when the events took place.

For further clarification, this is the order of the excerpts as I understand them chronologically.

1. Interlude with El meeting tOdium (WaT)
2. Epigraphs with Musings of El (RoW)
3. Interlude/epilogue with El killing Pursuer/Defeated One (RoW)

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Interludes don't necessarily have to take place on the same day. It's entirely possible that they had this conversation on day one

My interpretation entirely. This latest Interlude in KoW is a flashback to when El met New Odium. He only begins composing his "musings" in his head on his way out.
 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SheepAreFluffy said:

My "it probably won't happen but what if it does?" idea from reading this: What if Shallan ascends to Honor? Would her dissociation help her to resist the corrupting influence of holding a shard in the same way that Taravangian's dual nature is (at least somewhat) helping him resist Odium? Radiant certainly has a strong Connection to Honor. And she is now stuck in the Spiritual Realm, so she's in (sort of) the right place for it.

I was kinda looking at this from a related prespetive and wondering if cultivation is pushing Tarvangian to split the shard based on its waring intents

[Nesh he/him]

I think Taravangian made a miscalculation in his Interlude that may come back to bite him down the.  Specifically, when it comes to Sazed.  He thinks the other Shards are ignoring him and that Sazed is impotent.  We know from the Letters that Sazed recognizes the threat of Odium and is willing to do what he can to fight against him, and with what we saw in Lost Metal (Though that is after WaT) he may not be impotent for much longer... Also, it's interesting that he was able to contact Valor but Taravangian can't find her.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Well now I think El was the one who Taln replaced as a herald 

Cooooool. That's a really interesting idea. I still think it could be Hoid, but this is fun too

[alder24]

Goodbye forever Jezrien, little did remain out of you and even that was taken and destroyed. 

Odium confirmed that the army in Shadesmare was sent by Rayse, but not towards Azir, but towards Lasting Integrity. Why there? Was he worried that Honorspren would join Dalinar and wanted to get rid of them before that? Was that to capture Kalak as well? Or to eliminate their navy before they stand up against his rule over Shadesmar? Anyway, it makes sense now.

Taravangian as Odium can just do things. He can shut the door, fill gemstones with Voidlight directly. 

Dai-Gonarthis was finally mentioned. And she can create Elsegates. That’s impressive. And besides that, she’s also dangerous even for Odium to let out. How did she contribute to the destruction of Aima? So this probably means she’s not responsible for the emotionless state of Moash. And if Dai-Gonarathis is accessible to Odium, but prevented from acting, it means Chemoarish is the Unmade held in Shinovar. 

And somehow Roshar is mostly protected from Dai-Gonarthis, but not Natanan - is that because Stormseat was destroyed? Would this also mean that Aimia isn’t protected as well because Akinah was destroyed as well? And what payment will Odium have to pay? 

El’s interlude was very, very interesting. I like him. He’s cool and even I dare to say good? I actually want him to win a little bit. Now he’s above the Nine and he will be ruling over humans as he wanted. And still, he wanted to have no titles - I wonder why. And it seems that Taravangian is still pretending to be Rayse in front of other Fused. A weakness to be exploited. 

Taravangian's chapter confirmed that the reason for division of mind and heart is Cultivation’s boon and curse, not that Odium is always the divided one, which separates emotions from reason. It’s all because of Cultivation. 

Two Shards missing? Did anybody see a Shard somewhere?? One is probably Ambition because of her Splintering, but Valor? Is Valor the Shard who wants to stay hidden from WoBs? Is she the survival Shard? However, Sazed was able to contact her and she said she misses Hoid’s letters so Hoid can do it too. Why is she hidden only from certain Shards, but not all?

Uuuuu, big revelation, Taravangian will try to be good. That’s huge. He will allow emotions to rule over, not intellect - at least from time to time. That’s very interesting. I wonder how this will change his current plans which are in motion - invading armies and the champion. 

I think interludes have been so far my favorite part of WaT. So many things were said there, so many implications and thanks to them we’ve been able to peek into Shard’s mind and other ancient beings. I’m super excited for the rest of the book.

[teknopathetic he/him]

5 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Is El Nohadan?

 

Edit: Or a Fused equivalent? He seems...almost based.

El is in the forbidden 10th name of the almighty. Regular people aren’t allowed to say it out loud. Only ardent can. 

Elithanathile: he who transforms. 

This always sounded like a Fused name to me, but maybe it’s a “dawn singer” name for him. I don’t think Honour could have been a Parshendi (though Parshendi did exist at the time of the shattering, so I guess a worldhop is possible ish) 

Edited December 2, 2024 by teknopathetic

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Taravangian as Odium can just do things. He can shut the door, fill gemstones with Voidlight directly. 

Dai-Gonarthis was finally mentioned. And she can create Elsegates. That’s impressive. And besides that, she’s also dangerous even for Odium to let out. How did she contribute to the destruction of Aima? So this probably means she’s not responsible for the emotionless state of Moash. And if Dai-Gonarathis is accessible to Odium, but prevented from acting, it means Chemoarish is the Unmade held in Shinovar. 

And somehow Roshar is mostly protected from Dai-Gonarthis, but not Natanan - is that because Stormseat was destroyed? Would this also mean that Aimia isn’t protected as well because Akinah was destroyed as well? And what payment will Odium have to pay? 

It's fun to see Taravangian screw around with things almost as an afterthought while he's talking. I'm not sure how different it is from before.  Rayse could do stuff he struck Dalinar's copy of The Way of Kings with lightning in the climax of OB and he swatted away a gloryspren that was swirling around Dalinar. He did favor pulling people into his golden mind palace instead of showing up in person, but when he did show up he could interact. 

I wonder if shattering the special shape Stormseat would have had as a Silver Kingdom Capital City, like the others demonstrated by Kabsal's cymatics, broke some sort of magic ward. Like it was originally shaped by a note from the pure tones of Roshar or whatever and that interfered with her powers somehow. The special cymatics shapes don't seem to bother the other unmade as 3 were hanging out in Alethkar no problem. Must be specific to how she does her thing or there's a different reason. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Child of Hodor

[Wanguu He/Him]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Two Shards missing? Did anybody see a Shard somewhere?? One is probably Ambition because of her Splintering, but Valor? Is Valor the Shard who wants to stay hidden from WoBs? Is she the survival Shard? However, Sazed was able to contact her and she said she misses Hoid’s letters so Hoid can do it too. Why is she hidden only from certain Shards, but not all?

Could it be Virtuosity, since they splintered themselves? Or could it be the unknown shard?

 

 

And for everyone discussing El killing Lezian and Jezrian, El was using two different anti-lights, Anti-Voidlight and Anti-Stormlight. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I found El kind of likeable. 

I wonder if El and Renarin might get married in that one vision where Renarin appears to be a Parshendi Monarch.

Renarin would add a human legitimacy to the throne, and El would satisfy the Singer side of things. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Ewery1]

42 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

It's fun to see Taravangian screw around with things almost as an afterthought while he's talking. I'm not sure how different it is from before.  Rayse could do stuff he struck Dalinar's copy of The Way of Kings with lightning in the climax of OB and he swatted away a gloryspren that was swirling around Dalinar. He did favor pulling people into his golden mind palace instead of showing up in person, but when he did show up he could interact. 

I wonder if shattering the special shape Stormseat would have had as a Silver Kingdom Capital City, like the others demonstrated by Kabsal's cymatics, broke some sort of magic ward. Like it was originally shaped by a note from the pure tones of Roshar or whatever and that interfered with her powers somehow. The special cymatics shapes don't seem to bother the other unmade as 3 were hanging out in Alethkar no problem. Must be specific to how she does her thing or there's a different reason. 

I was wondering this too - is it to do with features of the Dawncities that we accept as fundamental/to stop the Highstorms?

[dvoraen]

With respect to what we learned about Dai-Gonarthis, I don't think it's a matter of extracting a price from the Vessel of Odium, but rather Taravangian saying he will pay her price "again" ("another time" as in "this is another time I am doing this, because it's happened before"). That is, I took it to mean that deploying Dai-Gonarthis has effects that will be as detrimental as this Elsegate is useful. In other words, I think this means the Black Fisher is very destructive by default.