Long Game 96: KKC in the Modern Age

[The Unknown Order he/him]

TJ, TJ.

Now that's out in the open, I will vote, thank you very much.

[Kasimir he/him]

[TAG: RP, 248 words]

lxxvii. crockery

They crocked you, if you snapped. Placed you in a compound (“Haven,” they said, in the Medica and in the Chancellor’s Office, an act of double-speak that Kevan privately considered a betrayal, a dereliction of duty, but what did you do with students who weren’t quite there anymore, who’d snapped, and who could unmake parts of physical reality with a fractured smile and a whistled tune?)

He tried very much not to resent it: that Jenali and Elena Resterford’d broken out, that somehow, Percyl was still trapped in there. You didn’t ask, Kevan thought, about the difference between the drowned and the saved.

But still, you wondered. At how unfair life, God could be. You gave thanks that friends incarcerated had returned, even if there were whispers of skindancer sabotage placing them in the Crockery in the first place.

And you made plans with others. Quiet, secret plans, to ensure that should the worst happen, that when they came for you, because it was not if but when, because being mostly-harmless (but Percyl was never quite harmless, no, he’d plans, and shame on them as ruined them, the knife-brightness of his smile and those manic eyes) hadn’t saved Percyl and it sure as kraem wasn’t going to save Kevan either.

Maybe he couldn’t save himself, but he could make them hurt to put him away. And one day, the sun would shine on the University again, and the Omethi waters would rise and wash the skindancer stain clean.

[STINK he/him]

I don't wanna drop a well well well again 'cause I did not earn this one at all but

This university has a problem with wells we do not need that many who was in charge of the architecture here?

[Kasimir he/him]

[TAG: RP, 261 words]

32 minutes ago, STINK said:

This university has a problem with wells we do not need that many who was in charge of the architecture here?

[OOC: Feel like we blame Volatile for this tbh she probably did some remodelling along the way.]

lxxviii. our town

Kevan imagined taking a term off the University. Taking the old Aturan road down to the bustling port-city of Tarbean; from Tarbean, taking swift ship across the dazzling blue waters of the Reft, to emerge blinking into the sun-drenched soil of Yll; rolling green hills and hot rectangular slices of sunshine and woolly fluffy sheep and beyond, at the other coast, the brighter warm blue of the Centhe Sea.

You felt odd, he imagined, returning to where you grew up (even though he hadn’t been born in Tirnagh, had been born in a small village on the windswept coast where the jagged green cliffs met the glittering necklace of the Centhe Sea.) You didn’t always fit where you had been once. Ached to see his mother and grandmother again, as more than just words on a written page. (His grandmother didn’t write, they’d seen a scribe for that, of course. Wondered idly if she’d ever send him story knots, beyond the one he’d left home with. You were allowed to regret ambivalence towards your history, Kevan thought.)

He would step away from the University changed; you couldn’t help that, the people you met, the experiences you had, it all changed you, and perhaps not always for the better, but he imagined—could not imagine, rather, struggled to imagine—fitting back into quiet Tirnagh, struggled and failed to see himself settling down like his schoolmaster before him had, with the hallmarks of University education but also a quiet desperation.

You could return home, thought Kevan, but it could fail to be home, after all.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

Best Ever One and Only Super Secret PM, We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anybody, and by anybody I mean Skindancers and especially you TJ, on fear of Iron:

Spoiler

I have taken the latest advice, though with a slight twist to make it work better, I think it will work though the GMs seem to like you more than me and don't clarify my questions nearly as fast as yours.

That's my plan for next cycle, if you know what I mean.

Edit: Well, I can't really control that, as I don't decide when the GMs respond.

And yeah that sounds okay, as much as I want to actually talk. Suppose I can try to shoot them a PM. 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by The Known Novel

[|TJ| he/him]

6 hours ago, Kasimir said:

[OOC: Oh, we absolutely did. I would've insisted on it. I usually treat people who try to get me to turn on you as sus, as we are both aware. It's a red line Aman has learned to be wary of when it comes to me, since that, among other things, got me to hard-reverse on him in AG8. Given I've believed the veracity of the scan even knowing you had Arithmetics, and that the scanners didn't report missing funds, I think it's pretty clear that I have both insisted on checking the claimer, as well as checking how the rules interaction works. Funny story: it doesn't class as targeting you, but it absolutely gives your alignment anyway. Wilson said she regretted letting me discover this. So yeah, I set up the exploit, and let the scanners pick their targets, as I never like telling players what to do with their actions.

P.S. Incidentally, even if it somehow didn't, I feel like being dead broke should probably help with that!]

I have no idea what any of this means but somewhere along the way, but somewhere along the way there's been a mistake or a deliberate misdirection. And it's worse because without knowing what happened, I cannot even prove myself. Check. Again. All it takes is one lie to get the contrary result. Even if nothing comes of it, please note the points where a lie could have been generated. 

So, what you think the team is I'm teamed up with TKN? Because you either believe that or you think e!me would actually forego a kill again? Especially with what happened with Bort in LG83 when we skipped a kill but the roleblocker mistakenly got the right answer. 

And you know I have randed evil quite often lately. I had decided prior to this game if I rolled evil and you were village, I would not have the bandwidth or the energy to engage with you and would kill you very early. I would have probably killed in you in the very first month if I had randed evil again.

An eerie feeling like it's similar to Drake's fake scan from MR42 accompanied by a hoard of kills. If Szeth and/or TKN were a part of your plan, and if you know if they visited Imre in the past, 2 Assassin kills + 1 ML + 1 Sabotage is not beyond the realm of possibility. If Szeth is evil, then it's literally a do-or-die cycle for them. 

[Kasimir he/him]

[TAG: DISCUSSION, 737 words]

7 hours ago, |TJ| said:

No one that could have targeted me because I used Pickpocket and I got no money (literally got i did not have anyone to pickpocket) which is a proof that no one targeted me. Pickpocket of lower levels only work if someone targets me. Not a definite proof in any way, but the best I can do. 

Gonna be blunt: the fact you are speaking about definite proof is a clear E sign right there. Most Villagers don't think in terms of definite proof in terms of defending themselves. Claiming you can't definitively prove your Villageness is classic pure defensive E!mentality.

54 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

I have no idea what any of this means but somewhere along the way, but somewhere along the way there's been a mistake or a deliberate misdirection. And it's worse because without knowing what happened, I cannot even prove myself. Check. Again. All it takes is one lie to get the contrary result. Even if nothing comes of it, please note the points where a lie could have been generated. 

I have checked. I have checked multiple times, because bro, I did not want you to be Evil, despite my misgivings about you and your play, telegraphed by my repeat indications since last cycle that I was harbouring doubts about you. Unfortunately, RNGesus and the distro gods, it seems, do not care about what we desire.

I'm going to spell this out clearly: this is not a case of 'oh there was a roleblock and a missing kill so we are shooting the most probable suspect', which, I'll note, is a point you yourself supported and endorsed, as the simplest answer. This is a case of a direct scan yielding the result that you are Evil, with cross-validation among the scanners. To the thread, I apologise and will candidly say I am withholding some of the details for reasons of operational security and sensitivity, but am able to be much more forthcoming next cycle. If I die, then I die with honour for the Village, and Wonko or some of the players in the know will explain things in my place. (Note: Guys, if I'm dead, please do that. Keeping the Village as informed as possible is, IMO, pretty important.) There's currently a play going on which in most wargamed scenarios, will help the Village close things out within two Turns. Things didn't align until last Turn, and I admit we took unreasonably long to make the pieces work. 

I've done more that just note the points with the lies, I've gone back to re-read the last few cycles to the point I'm sick of staring at posts. Quite frankly, the other options and failure points are not remotely plausible.

54 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

So, what you think the team is I'm teamed up with TKN? Because you either believe that or you think e!me would actually forego a kill again? Especially with what happened with Bort in LG83 when we skipped a kill but the roleblocker mistakenly got the right answer. 

No, actually

I now think I made a very serious mistake in not listening to TKN, for which I apologise. As a player, I sometimes get unnecessarily tilted by players insistence on small points that are incorrect. As I have honestly told the thread in games before this, I sometimes overcompensate by becoming too easily convinced. Sometimes, of course, the opposite happens. I nail down on one point and then defend it to the death. On my re-read, I now think that Mat is Village and TKN is Village. 

I think the team I'm looking at is TJ/Araris/Szeth, with a potential Ash side. I've re-read and while I can see some reason to think V!Ash, I don't really love some of his votes, and feel that his NKA is too swift to excuse you.

I don't think you forwent a kill - I think you were concerned about JNV's role in the planning nexus because you knew JNV was functionally a confirmed Villager and knew this could come back to bite you. You knew it was unlikely JNV would be protected and deliberately shot JNV to both try to frame the Roleblocker, as well as to try to cripple Village planning and communications. The JNV kill, to me, precisely points to a team that was left in the cold and that wasn't in on Village comms, because an insider would not need to kill JNV, not when JNV had no actions. Not when JNV trusted most of them, particularly via me.

Unfortunately, I'm still alive.

54 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

And you know I have randed evil quite often lately. I had decided prior to this game if I rolled evil and you were village, I would not have the bandwidth or the energy to engage with you and would kill you very early. I would have probably killed in you in the very first month if I had randed evil again.

Possibly. Possibly not. The fact I was not doing serious analysis up to this Turn might have been a contributory factor - precisely because you state you would not have the bandwidth or the energy.

54 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

An eerie feeling like it's similar to Drake's fake scan from MR42 accompanied by a hoard of kills. If Szeth and/or TKN were a part of your plan, and if you know if they visited Imre in the past, 2 Assassin kills + 1 ML + 1 Sabotage is not beyond the realm of possibility. If Szeth is evil, then it's literally a do-or-die cycle for them. 

Lol. Two Assassin kills? Where are they gonna get the Assassins from? Assassin kills can't be staggered like that, bro. You order and that's it, no takebacksies.

Sir, I feel like your hypothesised E team isn't really consistent and this might be a problem, maybe  

I welcome them to try, really. If 2 Assassin kills and 1 sabotage can kill the Village in its current state, I have failed in the job that has fallen to me to harden the Village defenses. Sorry to say, but that much is true. Strongly do not believe this is an ML, and if it is an ML, then we go into next cycle knowing exactly who all the Elims are and Wonko avenges you. That simple.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kasimir

[Archer he/him]

Szeth Szeth TJ TJ 

 

[Kasimir he/him]

[TAG: DISCUSSION, 308 words]

Like. K. Say I accept you're Village.

Legit why of all things ML you? Why fake a series of scans and pull a moderate-duration con specifically for this particular moment? You cite a Drake scheme, and I point out a lot of Drake's lies are very short-lived, and this is the exact opposite.

Do you think it's a STINK/TKN/Szeth team trying to go for the final kill here? Because lol, literally they could kill anyone, in that world, right? Doesn't have to be you, so why would they invest all that time in doing so? Sart is the weak point in this world, but Ash is just as MLable. Just look at Sart's voting.

If not, then I presume you suddenly accept that STINK is Village?

You think it is acceptable and not OP to have a team of double Nobles?

You, who told me any Elim team with Szeth and especially with Szeth and TKN together was underwhelming - suddenly becomes overwhelming with me on it? Because that's the other direction of your postulated team, right? Me who, let me quote Araris, has extremely known tells when Evil, and can't last a game as Evil without having mental breakdowns to the point I'm notorious for it, and who conversely, is also very well known for not being able to stay disengaged and actually chill out when Village.

You don't have a coherent team.

That 2 Assassin + 1 ML + 1 Sabotage? That's so much fear-mongering. This reeks of Elim desperation: shut down the arguments by making people scared and paranoid that loss is around the corner. It's not. If it were, I wouldn't have been doing my job properly. I went down to Imre precisely because I harboured concerns about Elim kill hoarding, and it's pretty clear that's: A. not happening. B. not going to happen.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kasimir

[STINK he/him]

As a student at this prestigious institution, not only do I question why everyone always carries red pens and scribbles stuff on the wall similar to TJ followed by weirdly enough another TJ

But also the rare occasion where you see green, which I don't think I have to use right now. Whole lotta analysis being thrown down right now, so my stunning addition to the discourse is that TJ wanted me gone, and I do not want me gone. In fact I very much like it here, but I'd like it more if I got a discount for sure. 

I never did like their gut reads on everyone in the game you just can't do that man

[Kasimir he/him]

[TAG: RP, 216 words]

lxxix. possession

Kevan stared.

It couldn’t be. He didn’t want it to be true. And yet… He bit at the inside of his cheek until he tasted blood. He’d liked Salva. They’d run into each other occasionally in classes, before Kevan’d gone for readmission as an E’lir on a clean-slate basis. Back in Kevan’s days as the terror of the Fishery. Back in his days as Master Rhys’s despair.

For a wild, abrupt moment, he hated skindancers, hated how they turned friends against each other, hated what the skindancers had made of them, what they had all become. Jumping at shadows, whispers of sabotage. Bright students, bright stars falling from the sky. Getting crocked.

Hated how the skindancers were, if the reports were right, and Kevan believed them, oh, he did, he’d spent many a sleepless night poring over the reports with the incisive clarity of a Rhetoric and Logic student and the desperation of a friend—they wore your friends, like clothes. Twisted them, took them over.

Could they even be saved? Kevan did not know. What became of those possessed, those taken? 

(The mind rebelled at the thought of Soren, overtaken as well.)

He ground his teeth together. It did not matter. It was doing Salva an injustice if they didn’t stop the skindancers, here and now.

[|TJ| he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Gonna be blunt: the fact you are speaking about definite proof is a clear E sign right there. Most Villagers don't think in terms of definite proof in terms of defending themselves. Claiming you can't definitively prove your Villageness is classic pure defensive E!mentality.

Huh? That’s always how I defend myself? Give action/mechanism proof that I’m village and then move onto how the elim team behaved uncharacteristically for a team with me in it or I behaved uncharacteristically to be an elim.

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

I don't think you forwent a kill - I think you were concerned about JNV's role in the planning nexus because you knew JNV was functionally a confirmed Villager and knew this could come back to bite you. You knew it was unlikely JNV would be protected and deliberately shot JNV to both try to frame the Roleblocker, as well as to try to cripple Village planning and communications. The JNV kill, to me, precisely points to a team that was left in the cold and that wasn't in on Village comms, because an insider would not need to kill JNV, not when JNV had no actions. Not when JNV trusted most of them, particularly via me.

That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the cycle with the missing kill. You clearly believe TKN is village, so you don’t think the roleblocker blocked the elim kill. So the alternative is that you believe a team with me in it deliberately did not send in a kill. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Possibly. Possibly not. The fact I was not doing serious analysis up to this Turn might have been a contributory factor - precisely because you state you would not have the bandwidth or the energy.

I would never ever underestimate your ability for behind-the-scenes shenanigans. If I was evil, I would have killed you t1m1. No doubt about it. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Lol. Two Assassin kills? Where are they gonna get the Assassins from? Assassin kills can't be staggered like that, bro. You order and that's it, no takebacksies.

2 players cannot buy them at the same time? I don’t know man, I’m just trying to figure out the whole thing. There are 8 players left. It just doesn't make sense. 

54 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Legit why of all things ML you? Why fake a series of scans and pull a moderate-duration con specifically for this particular moment? You cite a Drake scheme, and I point out a lot of Drake's lies are very short-lived, and this is the exact opposite.

I don't know, bro. I don't know anything that happened. You are the one with the context. Presumably, the plan is yours. You know who was the one who suggested my name. If it was you, then elims would have no problem going ahead with it, they know one of theirs isn't in trouble. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

That 2 Assassin + 1 ML + 1 Sabotage? That's so much fear-mongering. This reeks of Elim desperation: shut down the arguments by making people scared and paranoid that loss is around the corner. It's not. If it were, I wouldn't have been doing my job properly. I went down to Imre precisely because I harboured concerns about Elim kill hoarding, and it's pretty clear that's: A. not happening. B. not going to happen.

It’s not fear-mongering smhhh, I genuinely do not know the point of a fake scan on me at this point in time. So it is legit the only thing I can think of. That is - 

a. They’re close to winning AND/OR

b. They really need Szeth to survive OR

b. The whole thing is so convoluted that it is not possible to find out the origin of the like, so they think they are safe.

My most confident guess is that they need Szeth to survive. Or else none of it makes sense. Szeth Szeth

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Well, I’m not 100% behind Kas, but I am in on the details behind this redscan, and I have some pretty strong trust in its veracity independent of Kas’s alignment.

TJ, TJ

Like Kas said, if this is a deliberate ML on you, it’s a stupid one, and will absolutely cost the Elims the game. In that case, sorry, but know that your loss will be fully avenged.

—————

Not for the first time, Elena wondered at the ignominy of her position. How dare they? They’d known who she was when they accepted her into their little school; the risks that they’d face. they’d known she intended to pursue a study of Naming. And yet, the very first time she spoke a Name on campus — in defense of the University, mind you — they had immediately caged her, on some flimsy pretext of insanity (ironic, given they’d never done the same to her father; the privilege of nobility, she supposed). They were cowards, simple as that; too afraid of her to see any sort of reason.

And yet, not quite frightened enough, she mused. They’d placed her in a cage of copper, as though she were some common Arcanist — but she had tools outside of naming. Her skill with grammarie might be lacking, but not so much that she could fail to notice the blazing heat of the midsummer sun outside her cell window. With her limited ability, it had taken her months to fashion that sunlight into a dagger, but she finally used that dagger to melt through the bars of her copper cage. After that, a few simple glammouries had let her walk out of the crockery fully unnoticed.

The other students watched her with curiosity now; they knew she’d been sentenced to the crockery, and wondered at her walking freely about. The Masters though… well she’d have to be careful from now on not to let them imprison her again. The fear in their eyes suggested there would be iron in her cage next time. Bother.

She doubted she’d be able to convince Master Namer she wasn’t a threat anymore; her lessons were at an end. She sighed, reminding herself that it wasn’t the end of the world. It was true that the University had the finest Namers in the Four Corners, but it was hardly the only place she could learn the art. That left her with no real reason to remain at the University — save one. Her father’s work remained unfinished; and her mother would never forgive her if she left creatures from the Mael weaving mischief in the world of men. The Dancers had to go.

For now, she followed her name upon the Wind, seeking those she’d caught speaking it in hushed voices. It was surprisingly easy to pick them out; for all the stares she received, it seemed most students were too frightened to actually talk about her. No doubt afraid that speaking her name would give her power, or summon her, or some nonsense.

At long last, the Wind led her to the whisperer — Kevan, sitting in the Archives, looking distinctly anxious and pensive. Was he a threat? It was hard to imagine one of the Mahael-uret picking so unremarkable a host, but they were hard to predict sometimes. In any case, she needed allies, and this was as good a place as any to start.

He didn’t seem to have noticed her, so she settled into a seat behind him, quirking a small smile.

“It’s rude to talk about people behind their backs, you know.”

Edited August 8, 2023 by Wonko the Sane

[Kasimir he/him]

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

Huh? That’s always how I defend myself? Give action/mechanism proof that I’m village and then move onto how the elim team behaved uncharacteristically for a team with me in it or I behaved uncharacteristically to be an elim.

No. You don't and usually do not specifically talk about 'definite proof' when defending. You are usually much more self-assured and claim you prove yourself as a Villager via your play. Insisting that you can't meet an arbitrarily high standard of evidence when you were willing to lynch for much less than that, cf. the very last Turn, is Elim - it's just like Stick pointing out your insistence on accountability was Evil.

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the cycle with the missing kill. You clearly believe TKN is village, so you don’t think the roleblocker blocked the elim kill. So the alternative is that you believe a team with me in it deliberately did not send in a kill. 

I point out, and have pointed out to the point I am genuinely sick of having to remind people of this, that 'deliberately did not send in a kill' is not the only option here, and I think it's telling that both you and Araris immediately jump to this as the first alternate possibility. I believe that a team with you on it missed a kill, through sheer accident, e.g. Szeth being recalled, or via Ankers. I lean towards the former: I think Szeth has been this team's DK.

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

I would never ever underestimate your ability for behind-the-scenes shenanigans. If I was evil, I would have killed you t1m1. No doubt about it. 

Well, I have no doubt you will in future

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

2 players cannot buy them at the same time? I don’t know man, I’m just trying to figure out the whole thing. There are 8 players left. It just doesn't make sense. 

Depends on how many and you get a bidding war, and this ignores the fact that once again, you are postulating a two Nobles team that isn't remotely prima facie possible from most perspectives of balance. For your 2 Assassin world to work, you need two Nobles, to be clear. 30 talents is rough for anyone not a Noble.

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

I don't know, bro. I don't know anything that happened. You are the one with the context. Presumably, the plan is yours. You know who was the one who suggested my name. If it was you, then elims would have no problem going ahead with it, they know one of theirs isn't in trouble. 

I didn't suggest your name, and I point out again that this requires a long-running con, given that I was aware of the existence of two scanners by early mid-game. That's not very plausible in the situation you suggest - you are ignoring the fact there is no incentive for an Elim team to deliberately fake things to ML you in particular. You have still failed to suggest a coherent team or set of partners, and the fact you can't do that strongly suggests there is something wrong about your suspicions.

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

It’s not fear-mongering smhhh, I genuinely do not know the point of a fake scan on me at this point in time. So it is legit the only thing I can think of. That is - 

Isn't it? You literally up and propose to the thread, right here and right now, that it's lylo and everyone is going to die if you are lynched this Turn. Strangely, this was not a concern last cycle when TKN was lynched on flimsier, if not equally flimsy evidence - I say flimsier because we all acknowledged last Turn it was probabilistic and failed in [GAMBIT] and [KRAEM HAPPENS.] Even then, you did not hesitate and told me, the simplest answer is best.

Let me get several things straight.

1. Last Turn, you were entirely willing to lynch TKN off evidence that was just as strong as in here, if not weaker. The thread suspected a roleblock had taken place. We did not know for sure. All we saw was the absence of a sabotage. We actively knew it was possible, given TKN lacked actions, that he'd genuinely been roleblocked, and this was unrelated to the lack of a sabotage. And still, we voted for TKN because we act towards the most probable world.

2. Let me recontextualise everything, in this game, in light of your behaviour. Your STINK votes felt LHF: on re-reading, I noticed STINK had in fact contributed: he just doesn't pack it in long, detailed posts like everyone else. You, surprisingly, ignored Szeth's D2 utterance, despite also calling out both Alpha and Fae in prior games for making similarly transparent thread declarations. In fact, despite such a glaringly ??? post from Szeth, you haven't actually given Szeth any attention at all, which makes me think Szeth is your most likely E!partner here, and clearly the bus, given his inactivity/desire for a PH anyway. (I could go on about Szeth's playstyle shift as compared to LG95 and QF66 in which he was a Villager implying potential alignment stunlocking here, but you are the focus right now, not Szeth.)

You displayed a chronic lack of WiM all the way through to this cycle: I agree and get that you are busy and RL happens, but I have known you for this long, and I have known you to proactively seek to solve as a Villager with me in PMs. You lacked this; where you did PM me, you floated suspicions like test balloons, similar to LG93, where E!you let me dictate the pace of the solving, and backed down quickly and immediately if I challenged you strongly, suggesting you had no real convictions there. 

I'll note something else: I hinted as much when Archer challenged you on the Windy Tower choice. What's the point of speedrunning Master if you're not remotely Villaging?

Roles are roles, bro. We both agree on this. Villaging is essential. V!TJ has never been afraid for his life if it advantages the Village. We both have had to fight each other for the right and honour to die for each other. Suddenly, you, a player with 1 Arith 2 Artificery - suddenly you develop such fear of going insane, even when players can break out and can be broken out? You could make items to protect the Village from sabotages - an actual +1 to insanity which is pretty damn small all things considered, and Ash himself has been willingly tanking this with no issues - and suddenly you say you aren't doing it because you are afraid? I think you are not doing it because it would make your job harder. And you are looking into making grams for the Elims because the Elims fear Naming.

Why? What does a Villager have to fear next to the benefit to the team? Where is the bro who would fight with me to see which of us can die first and do what's best for our team?

Psychologically the only way I can make sense of your play, of what you are doing, is that you are Evil.

3. I'll note as a final point that I felt you were very stunlocked for the first cycle of the game. I take that as a point in favour of V!Mat and would note that arguably, it takes Elims the longest to grapple with this game and the rules - it makes sense you and your team would sit back. Most of us are just wading in without a care. I don't find this to be the strongest point, but I note this anyway. I think 1 and 2 matter more - we have to acknowledge that in any other world, you would consider this an acceptable lynch. I agree that regardless of your alignment, you would be forced to disagree here. But as a Villager who is not you, I have to work from my evidence base. And that is where I go.

Can I say I don't doubt this at all? No. Bhai, I don't want you to be Evil, and that hangs powerfully over my analysis. That, and my own doubts. I want to have been misled, and I want the scanners to be lying. I keep going back and asking myself because surely I am wrong, and surely there is a mistake somewhere. But the circumstances don't check out. The simplest answer, to quote you back, is that you are Evil and the scan is correct. And even without the scan, there are things to doubt about you. That's my whole point: in any other lynch, for any other player, as we just saw last cycle, we would have said yes and done it.

And if you truly are Village, know that we will avenge you.

Appendix:

I want to make a couple more comments here. The set of still-living players includes: <Kas, Archer, Sart, STINK, Ash, Szeth, Steel, TJ.>

I am going to bracket anything I know and to simply speak as an analyst.

1. I think Sart should be a decent mid-tier Village read for most. It's worth noting that the thread demonstrated low tempo on T1M3, when Sart had 6 votes, which suggests that the Elims were not particularly concerned by Sart coming under threat. 

Quote

Sart (8) - Mat, Kas, Kas, Wonko, Wonko, TJ, TKN, TKN
Araris (3) - Mat, Ash, Stink
Mat (3) - Archer, Archer, Sart
Stink (2) - TJ, Araris
Steel (1) - Ash
Wonko ()) - Araris
TJ (0) - Sart

I'd also note I have a positive read of Sart, in general: I have mentioned the perpendicular V!Sart tell, and for me, the fact V!Sart and I tend to butt heads more is helpful.

2. I think STINK should also be a decent mid-tier Village read for most. I think one reason is pretty obvious to any player who has been paying attention  I also agree with Mat about having good vibes tonally from STINK's posts - this isn't Elim pretend indignation, this is a player who is upset about not being taken seriously which suggests to me he does take his posts seriously, even if he doesn't always frame his suspicions and thoughts in 'accepted' ways, cf. calling TJ out T1M# for having too many gut reads.

As a side-note of interest, here is the post STINK called out, my comments in bold. TJ voted there but I've removed the votes to avoid confusion.

Quote

mat - lately i been reading mat and archer evil by default at the beginning of the game idk why. feels a bit too worried about money but worry feels genuine. unsure. Effective null.

kas - rp heavy but also not budging from village duty, doesn't feel like hiding behind rp, helpful player analysis. village.

tkn - dont really recall a lot of posts but apology for voting on kas felt genuine. Effective null, maybe null+

steel - started with gut evil m1 post. but really non-existent activity and kas reminded me dgaf!steel is high evidence for v!steel V lean IMO.

wonko - don't recall posts. mark to re-read. Null.

archer - felt quite evil till last cycle but posts this cycle make me feel quite better. unsure. Effective null.

ashbringer - don't remember non-rp posts. leaning more towards rp in rp-analysis scale. shades of dingo because of it. but much more active here compared to dingo which is giving me pause. leaning evil though. Evil lean but didn't vote = When You Say Nothing At All

araris valerian - unsure. don't recall being activity prior this cycle. seems engaging this cycle. might have to reread posts from earlier cycles.  Effective null.

szeth pancakes - don't recall posts. mark to re-read. Effective null.

stink - gut evil from that vote on araris this cycle. Evil read.

sart - gut evil from posts this cycle. also not seeing how my votes were opportunistic last cycle. Evil read.

3. I think Steel is Village. I've explained Steel's psychology as a player and my read of him, based off the long analysis I performed in LG94. I feel Steel is more performative when Evil, and tends to show up more. Despite being excruciatingly busy, he was present in my LG92, and that's not something we can say of this game. I acknowledge it's difficult to read a player in absence but also point out it'll be easy for us to know if he's the last Elim left because the kills will stop.

4. I think Szeth is Evil. I base this off TJ's defense of Szeth prior to the scan being revealed, and TJ's Szeth-sized blindspot. I fully agree with TJ that in an E!TJ world, we need an explanation for why the team ended up missing a kill, and Szeth being the Designated Killer who was, somehow, also so allergic to answering a simple "Did you get recalled?" Y/N question who did in fact get recalled makes the most sense. The other half of it requires one in <Mat/Araris> hence the increased pressure to kill for TJ and Szeth - I'm currently leaning towards Araris, as in an E!Mat world, I don't see him completely refusing to vote D1. Keep in mind that he started with 3.04 talents and being brought on the Horns cost him most of his cash. I don't see the Elims being that willing to tank that penalty for their Ruh, as losing that money made Mat's existence very precarious. Voting anywhere at all would have diluted the threat of the lynch on Mat, improving the chances the DP are assigned to anyone Not Mat. In addition, the low tempo D1 makes me believe at most one Elim was under threat - between Mat and Szeth, Mat would have had more to fear from the lynch. Szeth would not, being wealthy.

There are some other inconsistencies about Araris which I don't really want to spell out right now because I need sleep but will happily do so if anyone wants to know once I'm awake, if I'm still alive. If not, ask Wonko as I yeeted my notes at him. (Sorry.) There are also other V!Mat factors, but again, sleep.

5. I think Ash is Village but I cannot say I am confident in this assessment. This is a very weak inclination. If E!Szeth, Ash voted Szeth D1, causing the entire trouble in the first place. That's a bit counterintuitive, given this game is flipless in voting so Elims generally do not get punished for defending each other. I don't love Ash slipping TJ out of his first NKA, and I feel worry about some of Ash's later votes. While I do have an alright tonal read of him, the result is that I could see Ash being an E!partner, but he's not my first, intuitive read/candidate.

6. I've said my views on TJ bro. Moving on.

7. Archer. I've argued from - I think D3? - that I've come around to V!Archer and on balance, see no reason to change my views. Vote precarity, extreme proactiveness (Actions Anonymous) in a cycle that was characterised by low activity, go-getter attitude, and damned insistence on hauling me into the game because he suspected TKN are fairly Village, in my eyes. E!Archer does not need to go to great lengths to pocket a V!Kas who isn't giving a damn and for all he knows, would not bother going to bat for him. There's very little pay-off there. And while I'm not a very strong Village player, I'd argue Elims would take the free 'out of it Kas' rather than seek to actively put me in it. The fact that I can't have a nice chill RPful game is 90% his fault, and I'm damning him for it by Village reading him

8. Me. I'm not really gonna bother here, not sorry. Calling it a night.

Wait no I lied I haven't finished on TJ.

Here's my problem, in a nutshell. Even if I bracket the scan, quite honestly, I am more or less committed, by sheer PoE, to be looking between <Szeth, TJ, Ash> and TJ comes out as a higher priority problem than Szeth, who is at most simply doing nothing and submitting kills. The fact that there is a scan, which is fairly well substantiated, puts me in the position of simply having to say that by normal SE standards, quite before TJ tried to evoke a State of Emergency, this is pretty compelling reason in total to vote for TJ. And so that's where I'm at. 

My best and cross checking and 'checking again' has still led me back to you, and I'm sorry. If you are Village, I will avenge you and this is really just Pyrrhic for the Elims. But - honestly, sorry bro I don't think you are.

See y'all in the morning.

@Wonko the Sane Apologies, will RP respond by then, it's been a very long day so need the rest to recover  

P.S. TJ, I can say the same to you, which is that by the same token you argue that E!you would kill V!me first, you also argue V!me would always eventually catch you so I am a danger to you. So which is it?

Edited to add:

Very last word, promise.

Who is your team?

How many of you can name at least one theorised coherent team?

I keep asking TJ that question and he keeps dancing around it. Who does Szeth fit on a team on? If this is a hypothesised Elim last ditch effort, why can't he name the team? Is it a Szeth/TKN/X team? A two Noble team, really? If not Szeth/TKN, why is the spectre of two Assassins coming up? If not, then what sort of Szeth team is this? Why is there no ability to ID a coherent team when even STINK was able to give me a prospective E!partner for TJ off the bat and to acknowledge TKN and Szeth don't work well together on a team?

My point is that the main reason TJ can't do it is he keeps running into the fact the PoE is narrowing, and it's harder to FUD the survivors. I agree I have often argued that the inability to name a coherent theorised team at start to mid-game is a problem. But we are six cycles in. By this point, you should be able to at least propose a coherent team, or a set of theories.

Why can't he? What's wrong here?

Edited to add 2:

Like, my point about the SAN is - where's the proactiveness? You didn't make any effort to find a Physicker? Bro, when I got Physicking, I started trying to find people to help. I know V!you is proactive and I don't see that here, and when your role can actively make protections against the sabotage, that's really questionable at best. Even when I offered you Physicking, you said, at least twice, that you weren't interested. I feel like V!you would've leaped at that offer to actually do these things without significant fear of failing IP and cracking.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kasimir

[Ashbringer he/him]

Szeth TJ TJ 

One thing I realized last night - Steel and potentially Szeth may become non-issues. If they don't put in lodging orders, they're on the streets and may just die passively. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

And while I'm not a very strong Village player

Hmmmm

[|TJ| he/him]

18 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

You are usually much more self-assured and claim you prove yourself as a Villager via your play.

I haven't had to defend myself from a fake scan till now though. 

23 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Isn't it? You literally up and propose to the thread, right here and right now, that it's lylo and everyone is going to die if you are lynched this Turn.

You are honestly not looking at it from my perspective. Because I'm trying to think of the reasons why elims would do this, and this is genuinely one of the options. 

30 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

1. Last Turn, you were entirely willing to lynch TKN off evidence that was just as strong as in here, if not weaker. The thread suspected a roleblock had taken place. We did not know for sure. All we saw was the absence of a sabotage. We actively knew it was possible, given TKN lacked actions, that he'd genuinely been roleblocked, and this was unrelated to the lack of a sabotage. And still, we voted for TKN because we act towards the most probable world.

Pardon, but it's different when it happens to you. I am not blaming you for making this case. That is your job. My job is to let you know you're wrong. I'm not the player who can just give up and accept his fate. I will make my case. You know me bro, you know I hate getting ML'ed. And I doubly hate it when the choice to make my case is taken from me (like a fake-scan, but also like a hammer in the endgame), but damn it if I do not try. 

40 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I'll note something else: I hinted as much when Archer challenged you on the Windy Tower choice. What's the point of speedrunning Master if you're not remotely Villaging?

Roles are roles, bro. We both agree on this. Villaging is essential. V!TJ has never been afraid for his life if it advantages the Village. We both have had to fight each other for the right and honour to die for each other. Suddenly, you, a player with 1 Arith 2 Artificery - suddenly you develop such fear of going insane, even when players can break out and can be broken out? You could make items to protect the Village from sabotages - an actual +1 to insanity which is pretty damn small all things considered, and Ash himself has been willingly tanking this with no issues - and suddenly you say you aren't doing it because you are afraid? I think you are not doing it because it would make your job harder. And you are looking into making grams for the Elims because the Elims fear Naming.

I'll be the first to raise my hand up and say it was not my best game. I did mention to you prior to the game that I just wanted to chill and do my own thing. I just wanted to make Master smh ;-; And I didn't want to go Insane before making Master. That's all there is to it. It does seems a bit selfish, but I just wanted to chill this game, sigh >>

And honestly I am tired and have a headache and need to sleep too but I'll end with this - 

52 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

And if you truly are Village, know that we will avenge you.

What is the plan then? I assume, expel me and then expel Szeth. What happens if the game is not over then? Because I guarantee you, the game will not be over then, unless it is a weird team of Araris, Mat, Szeth. Only then would you go for the scanners? Because I don't know how you will get the proof that I'm village before that. The game not being over will be only the proof of it. 

[Kasimir he/him]

[TAG: RP, 303 words, DISCUSSION, 1084 words]

2 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

“It’s rude to talk about people behind their backs, you know.”

lxxx. acquaintances

"I'm sorry," said Kevan, abashedly. He couldn't help but glance towards the guards that filled the Archives, as out of place as the skindancers were in a place of higher education and learning. There was a saying, in Yll, about naming King Cailan, and the King showing up, which felt exactly like the sort of situation he'd landed himself in. "I was thinking aloud, I guess."

God, that sounded like a pitiful excuse. "I'm sorry," he said, again. "I don't think we've taken all that many classes together. It's good to meet you."

And he meant it.

He'd heard something about Elena Resterford working in Naming, which put her far from the quotidian sort of circles in which Kevan moved. A chance encounter in the Archives...

For a moment, the part of Kevan’s mind that had been thinking about Salva and Percyl and the threat of the skindancers stuttered to a stop and wondered. But no, he told himself. Of all the people in the University, and this was in spite of Kevan’s burying his head in his books and getting dragged out by, it seemed, everyone else, he did not think Elena was in league with the skindancers.

Not after what Soren and Valerra and Jarvik had studied in their Fae Lore classes. The apple did not stray so far from the tree.

“Are you fighting them, then?” He wished he could take back the words that had come right out of his mouth. He was alright with people, give him an academic setting, or a casual one, and he was fine. He did not know what to do here, and he felt wrong-footed. He looked down. “They took my friend. I think.”

Salva, oh Salva. You didn’t have to be close to feel the pain, and God, if they’d taken Soren…

[OOC: Wonko - sorry, needed to uh, do something about the fact my PM to post ratio is abominable rn and I help the GMs by counting because I feel badly about causing them stress so haven't passed out yet.]

24 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

One thing I realized last night - Steel and potentially Szeth may become non-issues. If they don't put in lodging orders, they're on the streets and may just die passively. 

[OOC: Hasn't seemed to hurt Steel yet, sadly, as it'd at least be a resolution for us. Keep in mind he hasn't logged in since T1M2, if I'm correct in tracking.]

24 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Hmmmm

[OOC: I insist that this show up as a truth in Linguistic Analysis.]

23 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

I haven't had to defend myself from a fake scan till now though. 

Perhaps. But it also is a classical Elim response though. Counteraccusing is standard to both sides. Framing proof in terms of definites skews Evil.

23 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

You are honestly not looking at it from my perspective. Because I'm trying to think of the reasons why elims would do this, and this is genuinely one of the options. 

I am pointing out your perspective is inconsistent with the gamestate and game facts as we currently have them. The fact that it is inconsistent is troubling. For this to be 'genuinely one of the options', you need an Elim team that most players consider prima facie unviable. You continue to be unable to name a partner or a coherent team that could be in this position. This has to be troubling to anyone who wants to believe your innocence and exists in fog-of-war, i.e. any normal Villager.

23 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

Pardon, but it's different when it happens to you. I am not blaming you for making this case. That is your job. My job is to let you know you're wrong. I'm not the player who can just give up and accept his fate. I will make my case. You know me bro, you know I hate getting ML'ed. And I doubly hate it when the choice to make my case is taken from me (like a fake-scan, but also like a hammer in the endgame), but damn it if I do not try. 

Perhaps, and V!me would do so in your place, but then as a Villager weighing the facts to try to find the best way forward, my duty as much as I dislike it at this juncture is to also make the case against you and to interrogate your responses.

23 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

What is the plan then? I assume, expel me and then expel Szeth. What happens if the game is not over then? Because I guarantee you, the game will not be over then, unless it is a weird team of Araris, Mat, Szeth. Only then would you go for the scanners? Because I don't know how you will get the proof that I'm village before that. The game not being over will be only the proof of it. 

Expel you, mech clear/damn basically 80% the playerbase, with a mixture of rules interactions I can't go into depth on right now, redo analysis and reads and kill the last few we can't  By that point, working will be shown to everyone left voting, who then can decide whether or not this is correct. I've got a bunch of 'best worlds' and 'worst worlds' in projections but the fact of the matter remains, that - what's wrong? If the game is not over then, then no crem, that means we re-evaluate and continue? I don't understand why you are raising this as a serious problem. This is basic Village play. Even bracketing the scanners, I point out that you, Ash, and Szeth inhabit the lowest tiers of my reads right now. It would be seriously strange for me not to go from lowest tier to upper tier when revising and pressuring!

Beyond that, I point out LG92 - I am definitely aware of how fog of war makes people kayana and enables more flipless shenanigans. But I have faith in the Village, and I have faith in the fact that if the scan were seriously strange, it would be the thing to call out. It's like why no one believed the scan on Mat despite Mat scanning as Village in LG92.

I remind you that if you insist the two scanners are the ones who must be Evil, that you are then saying they waited for a significant length of time before faking a scan right here and right now. Again, I agree that you are obligated to say this regardless of your alignment - but what's their incentive to lie right now? This is exactly why you've had to insist they can end the game now, and I once again point to the fact I have asked and will continue to ask this and you still cannot name me a coherent team that can end the game this cycle with your ML.

I accept you are obligated to say the ML is wrong and the scan must be wrong. From my point of view here, the opposite is clearly the case, which is that if there is no coherent world in which the Elims have an incentive to lie right here and right now, specifically about your scan, then it's more likely that you are Evil, and we have to play to that world, however much I hate it.

Again, you talk about proof. I'm interested in why you are obsessed with proof. This was not a concern for any lynch before this, and now the inability to give 'proof' when every normal Villager, in any normal game, has had to prove themselves via their gameplay is significant? I also point out that the lack of proof has not stopped revision of the Mat and TKN reads, even post-expulsion. The game does not end despite the lack of proof. I really find that insistence an Elim tell.

Let me frame it this way: if I could actually flip you, would this resolve the proof issue in your eyes and be an acceptable solution? Because that can absolutely be on the table. I have considered doing that instead. It would not make me unvote you here and now, but if you feel putting an Assassin on you after you are in Imre is more helpful, I can certainly work towards that.

Edited to add:

Again. If I bracket the scan, sorry, I cannot remove you from PoE right here and right now. In fact, in terms of PoE strength, you are at the very bottom, which means objectively, I have to look at you one way or another. If you think Szeth is Evil, then us going for Szeth after you should be a world you are more than fine with, after which we revise accordingly, based on tiers and best available evidence, and the mechclears. Unsure why this should be an appalling possibility - it's basic Village play.

I mean if it's a straightforward question: do I believe beyond all reasonable doubt that you are Evil? Like hell no. I never trust my reads 100% and would not be surprised if I've made some mistake somewhere. But I am obligated, as a Villager, to vote with my reads, not against them, and to follow the evidence, and to doubt where necessary and to revise accordingly. To let my inner Kevan out a bit, I'm required to do my epistemic best and then move on. I won't ever want to 100% believe you are Evil and I think it's reasonable to doubt. But that doesn't mean I vote against evidence. I vote with my evidence and my reads. This is where it takes me at the moment.

I won't deny I really hate this situation and it's giving me flashbacks to how Devo had to keep me on Aman in LG94 but it is what it is. The fliplessness doesn't help and I ask the same question over and over again: "Why? Can't this be wrong? Must I?" and still I know the answer, I just don't want to accept it.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kasimir

[The Unknown Order he/him]

1 hour ago, |TJ| said:

Pardon, but it's different when it happens to you. I am not blaming you for making this case. That is your job. My job is to let you know you're wrong. I'm not the player who can just give up and accept his fate. I will make my case. You know me bro, you know I hate getting ML'ed. And I doubly hate it when the choice to make my case is taken from me (like a fake-scan, but also like a hammer in the endgame), but damn it if I do not try. 

Is it though? Coming from someone who has had it happen to himself, in this very game, the difference was marginal. I had post of real pushback, then voted myself and decided to move forward as expelled. And being expelled isn't that bad. You can make your case all you like, I made my case just the same, but I stopped when it became clear it was not in my favor. Elims are obligated to fight to the end in a way villagers are not, so if anything you are just proving your own guilt with every post.

Look at the brightside, once you've been expelled, Kas will just automatically begin to trust you again, because that's what's Kas does in flipless games.

[Sart he/him]

Well, I guess this has been decided then. Ashbringer TJ TJ. Let's see what happens next.

[Kasimir he/him]

49 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

Look at the brightside, once you've been expelled, Kas will just automatically begin to trust you again, because that's what's Kas does in flipless games.

Does seem that way doesn't it. This right here is why I don't play flipless smh. Where's Aman to thread PM when you need him.

Have legit sent way too many PMs asking people if we are dead sure the scanners check out and the cross-validation is OK, even knowing it's already been gone over. I also have asked the GMs at least three times if Namers can feign insanity, only to be told it can be done but absolutely not with Wind. Do you at least think/agree it's—you know, the best route?

I don't know why I keep on asking the same question. I suppose because it is TJ and I don’t like pushing my bros. I also suppose it is because I feel the Mat and you pushes were bad and don't want it to happen thrice. And I guess because I will never not doubt anyway even if I feel it's the correct move forward. 

I have asked the GMs "why" too many times this cycle. Digimon tri. meme stands. I keep asking the question. 

But fact still boils down to that revising any higher tier reads is unnecessary paranoia and bad Village play on my part. I cannot afford to indulge this right now. Really know how the LG92 Village felt smh.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Do you at least think/agree it's—you know, the best route?

100% Kas, I don't think I'm completely absolutely filled in on everything, but we have to follow through with this. If we follow through and we're somehow wrong, we can recover, if we don't follow through, we will lose. I know you don't want to exe TJ, but it must be done Kas.

10 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Does seem that way doesn't it. This right here is why I don't play flipless smh. Where's Aman to thread PM when you need him.

Well, I'm no Aman but I am thread PMing, though I think my sort is a little more serious than they normally are. 

12 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Mat and you pushes were bad and don't want it to happen thrice

It won't, and my push wasn't bad, it was incorrect but there was no way to know it was incorrect. And I still have my doubts as to Mat's alignment, so just keep going, we'll make it.

If you want to sign off for this turn, you can, you've done your part. Now we just wait and see.

[STINK he/him]

Just kinda lost at this point tbh you lot all were scheming

[Mat he/him]

TJ TJ

Means nothing but I add my support ^-^

[little wilson she/her]

The turn is over!

[little wilson she/her]

Term 3, Month 1 - It's a RAINBOW

 

 

Quote

 

Dear Reader, I make no promises that the following passage may or may not inflict some damage upon your sanity but it remains my duty to do it anyway because it's interesting and not following the formatting of a post on X as we're meant to call it now. I do like the social media writeups though they're always fun. Anyways, here's this:

In the cosmic dance of polka-dotted platypuses and philosophical cheese wheels rolling through the interdimensional meadows of rainbow-scented thoughts, the melodious cacophony of caffeinated marshmallows serenades the elusive moonbeams, while sentient socks engage in spirited debates on the existential implications of mismatched footwear in a world where gravity is merely a conspiracy of jellybean conspirators plotting to turn gravity upside down just to see what clouds taste like on Tuesdays.

 

 

 

Stink and Sart were elevated!

TJ was brought on the horns and charged with Conduct Unbecoming! He was expelled!

TJ (12) - Kas, Kas, Wonko, Wonko, Archer, Archer, Ash, Ash, Stink, Stink, Sart, Sart

 

Player List

1. Matrim's Dice - expelled
2. Kasimir
3. The Known Novel - expelled
4. Steeldancer
5. JNV - insane
6. Wonko the Sane - formerly insane
7. Archer
8. Drake Marshall - insane
9. Ashbringer
10. TJ - expelled
11. Araris Valerian - expelled
12. Szeth Pancakes
13. Stink
14. Sart