Mid-Range Game 64: Shades of Crimson

[DeTess she/her]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Also, I don’t think there’s much control in flips. We can only flip based on the number of Knives available (1/4 of the player count, so either 2 or 3 which is… not many). And even that’s tricky, it seems to require banishing and RNG on who actually flips.

I just did some rereading, and this is indeed pretty much how it works. In addition, there is no way to transfer knives around so there is no way to ensure that a person people are okay with banishing also holds a knife. Then again, if you have a survivalist and mayor working together there would be less risk to that.

Question, do we want the silver knives to claim? That way if a situation comes up when we really want to get a flip we can coordinate based on where the knives are, and since they pass on death being able to keep an eye on knives (for example someone banished fighting off a shade with a knife they didn't start with could indicate they killed a previous holder) could be useful. On the other hand though, an elim homesteader leader could sue that info to better plan who they send out, though that would be a pretty clear pattern to spot and act on.

edit: Though killing shades also block the resurrection mechanic. I'd say the extra info is still worth it most of the time, but it is something to keep in mind.

Also something to note, without flips analysis becomes both more difficult, but also more important as looking at what everyone is saying and doing is our only real way of getting info. This also means people participating in the votes is more important. Speaking of which... Mat. The last two games we've played together have established something of a pattern, don't you agree  

edit2: I've been thinking more on the whole shade thing, but basically every kill ends up in the shade-doc, so assuming only execution+ elim kill there is only a 50% chance of clearing an execution shade with silver.

However, the ressurection is actually far more powerful than I thought, because it can bring back the elim kill. In practice this will probably only serve to slow down the elim kill (unless there is a village bodyguard), but if the elims don't kill people brought back that way again it would result in a  growing group of 'very likely village' people. In theory the elims could kill one of their own in the hope they are brought back as an extended WGG, but that feels like a long-shot. Not impossible, especially if one of the elims gets read as a village power-player (say Aman, Archer or Devotary if memory serves), but it's not something I would consider super likely. 

edit3: @Szeth_Pancakesfighter and assassin kills aren't differentiated. Is the ghost-blood kill differentiated from those two?
If the ghost-blood kill isn't differentiated then I think the village is almost guaranteed to have an assassin, just to make what I said above about bringing back elim kills a less sure bet to get likely villagers back. 

edit4: in which case, village killers might want to refrain from random shots to make targeting resurrections easier?

edit5: @Szeth_Pancakes, are bodyguard protections announced in thread?

Edited July 13, 2023 by DeTess

[Archer he/him]

Boop

7 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Top of my agenda, though, is to request that the Homestead Leader refrain from banishing anyone for the time being. Deaths are going to be inevitable, but let’s refrain from fragmenting the discussion more than necessary.

Homesteader gets to banish starting at the end of C2, then every other Cycle. Were you under the impression it starts C1, or are you recommending they hold off until C4? 

2 hours ago, DeTess said:

I just did some rereading, and this is indeed pretty much how it works. In addition, there is no way to transfer knives around so there is no way to ensure that a person people are okay with banishing also holds a knife. Then again, if you have a survivalist and mayor working together there would be less risk to that.

Question, do we want the silver knives to claim? That way if a situation comes up when we really want to get a flip we can coordinate based on where the knives are, and since they pass on death being able to keep an eye on knives (for example someone banished fighting off a shade with a knife they didn't start with could indicate they killed a previous holder) could be useful. On the other hand though, an elim homesteader leader could sue that info to better plan who they send out, though that would be a pretty clear pattern to spot and act on.

edit: Though killing shades also block the resurrection mechanic. I'd say the extra info is still worth it most of the time, but it is something to keep in mind.

Also something to note, without flips analysis becomes both more difficult, but also more important as looking at what everyone is saying and doing is our only real way of getting info. This also means people participating in the votes is more important. Speaking of which... Mat. The last two games we've played together have established something of a pattern, don't you agree  

edit2: I've been thinking more on the whole shade thing, but basically every kill ends up in the shade-doc, so assuming only execution+ elim kill there is only a 50% chance of clearing an execution shade with silver.

However, the ressurection is actually far more powerful than I thought, because it can bring back the elim kill. In practice this will probably only serve to slow down the elim kill (unless there is a village bodyguard), but if the elims don't kill people brought back that way again it would result in a  growing group of 'very likely village' people. In theory the elims could kill one of their own in the hope they are brought back as an extended WGG, but that feels like a long-shot. Not impossible, especially if one of the elims gets read as a village power-player (say Aman, Archer or Devotary if memory serves), but it's not something I would consider super likely. 

 

Why mention a mayor rather than imagine the Dawnshard of Time holder in that role? Your post also discusses the issue of the NK being resurrected. There's a built-in limit of one resurrection per person, I believe, meant to mitigate that issue a bit. But when you couple your thought of a mayor with your thinking about NK resurrections, you seem e!nervous about the mechanics. (IMO we probably just have the Time holder in play, meaning one resurrection every other cycle. If they have to double tap the NK a few times it balances out because it's a freaking flipless game.)

We know there's two knives in play (one for every four players, rounded down). I don't hate your argument for them claiming, but my instinct is to direct that conversation into PMs. 

[DeTess she/her]

4 minutes ago, Archer said:

 

Why mention a mayor rather than imagine the Dawnshard of Time holder in that role? Your post also discusses the issue of the NK being resurrected. There's a built-in limit of one resurrection per person, I believe, meant to mitigate that issue a bit. But when you couple your thought of a mayor with your thinking about NK resurrections, you seem e!nervous about the mechanics. (IMO we probably just have the Time holder in play, meaning one resurrection every other cycle. If they have to double tap the NK a few times it balances out because it's a freaking flipless game.)

We know there's two knives in play (one for every four players, rounded down). I don't hate your argument for them claiming, but my instinct is to direct that conversation into PMs. 

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by saying I mentioned a mayor?

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Also, I don’t think there’s much control in flips. We can only flip based on the number of Knives available (1/4 of the player count, so either 2 or 3 which is… not many). And even that’s tricky, it seems to require banishing and RNG on who actually flips.

Ah. I was indeed reading that wrong. In my mind, the Silver Knives were a one-time action to flip a dead player. This makes things... trickier. Hm.

39 minutes ago, Archer said:

Homesteader gets to banish starting at the end of C2, then every other Cycle. Were you under the impression it starts C1, or are you recommending they hold off until C4? 

I was indeed asking them to hold off til C4, unless a truly compelling reason to banish someone becomes apparent. Though, at the time, I hadn't realized that we need banished players to ever use our flips. Now I'm less certain. I'm still very worried about how quickly the discussion could fragment in this game, though.

Anyway,  some more thoughts. Since the Knives are so apparently unreliable, we have exactly one way to find out alignments that I can see: successfully roleblocking the eliminator kill. This makes fighters our third most valuable asset, after the Dawnshard and the Knives -- though I acknowledge that it's a really hit-or-miss method of confirming players. I'm still trying to brainstorm a way we can effectively use that.

Wait -- @Szeth_Pancakes, fighter is unclear to me. Are they able to roleblock an action on the same night they use their roleblock? If not, they're considerably weaker than I thought, and I'm back to square one.

[Mat he/him]

I was under the impression that the Dawnshard holder can only retrieve the roles of the dead, and that the player in question stays actually being dead. Like resurrection as a word would just be flavor. That’s how the rules read to me, at least.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

8 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I was under the impression that the Dawnshard holder can only retrieve the roles of the dead, and that the player in question stays actually being dead. Like resurrection as a word would just be flavor. That’s how the rules read to me, at least.

If that were the case, there'd be no reason for Shades to stay in the game at all. They can't affect gameplay while dead.

EDIT: It is also true that the Dawnshard gains their abilities, though.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Wonko the Sane

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

5 hours ago, DeTess said:

edit3: @Szeth_Pancakesfighter and assassin kills aren't differentiated. Is the ghost-blood kill differentiated from those two?

No.

1 hour ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Wait -- @Szeth_Pancakes, fighter is unclear to me. Are they able to roleblock an action on the same night they use their roleblock? If not, they're considerably weaker than I thought, and I'm back to square one.

They are not. Say the Fighter attacks someone on C2. C3, that person is roleblocked. C4, they are not.

Edit: @Matrim's Dice that’s not how the Dawnshard works. The person targeted is indeed resurrected, but without their role.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Szeth_Pancakes

[Archer he/him]

2 hours ago, DeTess said:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by saying I mentioned a mayor?

See below

5 hours ago, DeTess said:

I just did some rereading, and this is indeed pretty much how it works. In addition, there is no way to transfer knives around so there is no way to ensure that a person people are okay with banishing also holds a knife. Then again, if you have a survivalist and mayor working together there would be less risk to that.

 

I put it to you that you're worried about thread control 

1 hour ago, Wonko the Sane said:

I'm still very worried about how quickly the discussion could fragment in this game, though.

Says the guy who has only done rules analysis so far. If you're worried about going down mech rabbit holes, simply don't? 

46 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

EDIT: It is also true that the Dawnshard gains their abilities, though.

Interesting advantage to that being we can check role claims 

17 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

They are not. Say the Fighter attacks someone on C2. C3, that person is roleblocked. C4, they are not.

people keep talking about C4 as if we'll make it that long :P. 

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

5 minutes ago, Archer said:

Says the guy who has only done rules analysis so far. If you're worried about going down mech rabbit holes, simply don't? 

Oh no, I'm not worried about too much discussion about mechanics; finding mechanical tricks is my bread and butter, and I find it generally starts conversations just fine. It's already gotten two people to softly float suspicions (of me, but I'll take it), which is a lot more information than we had at the start of the round.

My concern is that Banished players are no longer allowed to communicate with the rest of us. There are effectively three "areas" of this game players will be allowed to communicate: the thread & PMs, the Banished doc, and the Shade doc. Players in each location have absolutely no way of communicating with the other locations. I'm asking that for the time being, we limit it to two locations by not banishing players, so that the discussion remains more active.

[DeTess she/her]

42 minutes ago, Archer said:

See below

Ah, I meant to refer to the leader role there that can banish people there, not the meta-role if a mayor that leads the village.

Out of curiosity, how did you imagine the dawnshard holder could fulfill either role?

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Hi. I'm here. 

Feeling pretty uninspired lately. 

My only comment would be that I'm uncertain of Wonko's suggestion with regards to Banishment. If it wasn't limited to every other cycle I would agree more, but even numbered cycles makes me think we should use it when we can. C4 feels a long way off.

Edit: I just want a doc to talk in :(. The Shard game spoiled me.

Edited July 13, 2023 by The Known Novel

[Archer he/him]

40 minutes ago, DeTess said:

Ah, I meant to refer to the leader role there that can banish people there, not the meta-role if a mayor that leads the village.

Out of curiosity, how did you imagine the dawnshard holder could fulfill either role?

Interesting. I'll buy that. 

They’re a confirmed villager, so that sets them up nicely to be the information hub, not that I encourage that type of game play 

1 hour ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Oh no, I'm not worried about too much discussion about mechanics; finding mechanical tricks is my bread and butter, and I find it generally starts conversations just fine. It's already gotten two people to softly float suspicions (of me, but I'll take it), which is a lot more information than we had at the start of the round.

My concern is that Banished players are no longer allowed to communicate with the rest of us. There are effectively three "areas" of this game players will be allowed to communicate: the thread & PMs, the Banished doc, and the Shade doc. Players in each location have absolutely no way of communicating with the other locations. I'm asking that for the time being, we limit it to two locations by not banishing players, so that the discussion remains more active.

Ah I see. I'm a little surprised you're more focused on communication than you are the e/v ratio. I'm softly treating Banished players as as good as dead. The loss of their contribution to the ratio, their votes, their role powers (aka all the usual things we like having people around for) would be a better justification for not being trigger happy. Others are free to chime in about whether Wonko's is a mindset they can see a villager naturally arriving at, but it's a little convoluted to me. 

Edit: ninjaed by TKN

Quote

My only comment would be that I'm uncertain of Wonko's suggestion with regards to Banishment. If it wasn't limited to every other cycle I would agree more, but even numbered cycles makes me think we should use it when we can. C4 feels a long way off.

This sense of urgency tracks with what I consider a more typical villager mindset 

 

do I feel like TKN would ask for a doc to pretend he doesn't have an elim one right now? I kinda do actually. He likes small but clever gambits

Edited July 13, 2023 by Archer

[Amanuensis he/him]

Here's my current read pyramid.

Quote

Wonko, TKN
Archer, DeTess, Ash, Matrim,
@TheAlpha929 @JNV @|TJ| @Devotary of Spontaneity

And I will vote Alpha.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

9 minutes ago, Archer said:

do I feel like TKN would ask for a doc to pretend he doesn't have an elim one right now? I kinda do actually. He likes small but clever gambits

100% would. I don't think it would occur to me to miss a doc if I had one, but if it did occur I totally would lament my suffering. 

[Archer he/him]

1 minute ago, The Known Novel said:

100% would. I don't think it would occur to me to miss a doc if I had one, but if it did occur I totally would lament my suffering. 

But would you do it as an edit? I liked my theory better when you, having had time to scheme and prepare, make that post. But doing it as an edit doesn't fit the vibe

7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Here's my current read pyramid.

And I will vote Alpha.

Mobile users be like: why is Devo alone on the bottom 

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

6 minutes ago, Archer said:

Ah I see. I'm a little surprised you're more focused on communication than you are the e/v ratio. I'm softly treating Banished players as as good as dead. The loss of their contribution to the ratio, their votes, their role powers (aka all the usual things we like having people around for) would be a better justification for not being trigger happy. Others are free to chime in about whether Wonko's is a mindset they can see a villager naturally arriving at, but it's a little convoluted to me. 

Banished players are way easier to recover than dead players, and even dead players are recoverable in this game. I'm not sure why you think of Banished players as out of the game when they can be rescued literally as fast as they're banished.

Also, why would blind banishment possibly help the ratio? I'm very confused by that. In any case, information is more important than the ratio even in a normal game. It's why the village bothers with execution at all, even though the first execution is obviously more likely to hurt the ratio than help.

The village lives and dies on information, and in this game there are precious few mechanics that gain it for us. That means we need to go old-school mafia, and get the information from the only place it exists: the eliminators. We need discussion and the opportunity to produce reads more than we need anything else.

[JNV]

This game is functionally flipless cause well basically get a max of three flips and like resurrection makes numbers complicated plus delayed random flips but probably three evils cause of the resurrection you know and yeah fighters most important items dont get destroyed by death which does kind of mean that someone with the Dawnshard of Time getting shot by evils is like the worst possible world be careful with that ok

@Szeth_Pancakes the 15 percent increase in odds of death is flat right so like 7 deaad people means certain death sorta thing without a blade and not you have another flat roll sorta thing also are banished protectors of the dawnsahrd counted as part of the evil wincon or no

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

Little point in having blades claim since enough shades to make knife activation likely also means a low chance of getting the flip of someone whose alignment is relevant. Banishment is useful in that banished elims count as dead, and there's a decent chance they either don't have a survivalist or only have two members total. Two elims including the homestead leader can't be ruled out though.

[Mat he/him]

Agree on TKN, though I’d say it’s just not a reason to e read him rather than a reason to v read him.

Don’t have time for much else; am on vacation. I find myself agreeing with Archer a lot, and I think I’d rather just roll with it than be worried about it :P.

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

Ah, the game is flipless, huh? Guess I should’ve read the dang rules.

 I’m evil, does anybody have requests for the kill? Someone you’re sus of, some who killed you last game, some who made one too many dumb jokes?

 I’m going to read the thread more carefully after reading the rules (something I can’t believe I legitimately did not do)

I also just realized I did not pick a game compatible with my schedule, as I’m going on a trip next week. So, beginning on Monday and ending on Saturday, I most likely won’t be super active. Or Sunday, depending on how you look at it. I was going to try to be more active and helpful, but the shard game was way too advanced for me, and I kinda got pissed off at SE in general  

I’ll help to the best of my ability, but I’m evil so… it’ll be a bit of a challenge. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by TheAlpha929

[Mat he/him]

Alpha

[|TJ| he/him]

aight, i really liked my play last game so will be playing on instinct again. 

17 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

I also think we should refrain from using any knives on the first kill or so, until there’s been some solid discussion. It’ll be tempting to flip the first person to die, just so we have something to go on, but that’s a very inefficient use of one of our most valuable resources.

not sure if wonko means first kill or the first elimination (latter is quite obvious, former not so, but I do agree) but either way, seeing this coming from a village mindset. gut village. 

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Here's my current read pyramid.

And I will vote Alpha.

aman gut evil. quiet aman, posted but less speaking aman, speaking but not really speaking aman, gut immediately says evil aman. 

4 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

100% would. I don't think it would occur to me to miss a doc if I had one, but if it did occur I totally would lament my suffering. 

gut village, this interaction very much feels like in the same vein as that in the last game, particularly the one i noticed in the reread which made me hesitate to vote on tkn in the cycle kas made a case for him and he garnered quite a bit of votes. archer tkn not e/e. response to archer similar to last game. 

and its 3am and ill go to sleep. 

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

1 hour ago, TheAlpha929 said:

Ah, the game is flipless, huh? Guess I should’ve read the dang rules.

 I’m evil, does anybody have requests for the kill? Someone you’re sus of, some who killed you last game, some who made one too many dumb jokes?

 I’m going to read the thread more carefully after reading the rules (something I can’t believe I legitimately did not do)

I also just realized I did not pick a game compatible with my schedule, as I’m going on a trip next week. So, beginning on Monday and ending on Saturday, I most likely won’t be super active. Or Sunday, depending on how you look at it. I was going to try to be more active and helpful, but the shard game was way too advanced for me, and I kinda got pissed off at SE in general  

I’ll help to the best of my ability, but I’m evil so… it’ll be a bit of a challenge. 

I really hope you’re kidding about that Eliminator claim. If not, then it’s kind of poor sportsmanship to just throw the game like this; it ruins the game for everyone else playing, and is a pretty crappy thing to do to your teammates. Next time, if you lose interest in a game, just drop out and request a pinch hitter.

If you actually are kidding (or pretending to be kidding), I’m super sorry for this misunderstanding. I just haven’t gotten to know you yet, so I don’t know what to expect from you. I’ve known and liked plenty of people who would make that sort of joke. I’ve just also known an unfortunate number of people who really would just sabotage a game because they lost interest or got upset. I hope you can forgive me for being gun-shy.

 

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

7 hours ago, JNV said:

@Szeth_Pancakes the 15 percent increase in odds of death is flat right so like 7 deaad people means certain death sorta thing without a blade and not you have another flat roll sorta thing also are banished protectors of the dawnsahrd counted as part of the evil wincon or no

Correct. And they are.

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

2 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

I really hope you’re kidding about that Eliminator claim. If not, then it’s kind of poor sportsmanship to just throw the game like this; it ruins the game for everyone else playing, and is a pretty crappy thing to do to your teammates. Next time, if you lose interest in a game, just drop out and request a pinch hitter.

If you actually are kidding (or pretending to be kidding), I’m super sorry for this misunderstanding. I just haven’t gotten to know you yet, so I don’t know what to expect from you. I’ve known and liked plenty of people who would make that sort of joke. I’ve just also known an unfortunate number of people who really would just sabotage a game because they lost interest or got upset. I hope you can forgive me for being gun-shy.

 

Haha, I see your point. Know this: I’m doing my best to be a good sportsman. In my personal life, this is a thing I am very passionate about. Even though I am evil, I’m doing my best to help the village. It’s a new strat I’ve got. My teammates will tell you, they’re fine with this. I checked in the doc before posting. 

Spoiler

I had to go play basketball with the team and I still haven’t read the rules or the thread, I just saw something that needed to be addressed.