Fullborn vs. 5th ideal windrunner 2.0

[MangoBoi101 he/him]

This is 2.0 since there is already a topic about this but I wanted to ask again and make some changes 

This is assuming that the fullborn has infinite access to all the 16 metals plus atium and they can mist burn all of them.

The 5th ideal windrunner has access to infinite stormlight.

Edited March 31, 2023 by MangoBoi101

[Frustration he/him]

Radiant wins then, no questions asked.

Fullborn lacks the offensive output to kill them through that much stormlight, whereas a shardblade is still every bit as lethal.

Now it might take them forever, but it would eventually happen.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Frustration

[MangoBoi101 he/him]

but how would one go about killing the fullborn (forgive me for my ignorance I've only read the first book in the stormlight archive)

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, MangoBoi101 said:

but how would one go about killing the fullborn (forgive me for my ignorance I've only read the first book in the stormlight archive)

Well for starters a shardblade would work.

Second off with infinite Stormlight they could just lash a large asteroid or another planet into the first one.

So on and so forth.

[MangoBoi101 he/him]

but a fullborn could simply store duralium connection to become unfindable correct? or is that not how it works.

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Well for starters a shardblade would work.

Second off with infinite Stormlight they could just lash a large asteroid or another planet into the first one.

So on and so forth.

A shardblade could work if they are really lucky/accurate, but it would first have to separate the Fullborn from his Gold Metalminds.  That might be asking too much against a Speester with infinite Atium.

Infinite Stormlight doesnt necessarily mean Infinite Scale (or Reach) of Surges, there are still limits to how much their Bond can channel and Spiritweb can support before Savantism damage sets in. "Infinite Stormlight" basically just a Radiant in a storm with lots of gems, or a Herald before Honor broke.  

[That1Cellist he/him]

So, I think this is just a draw, with a slight advantage going to the windrunner because of the shardblade. But theoretically, as long as the fullborn is careful, there really isn't a way for them to kill each other, I think.

[alder24]

59 minutes ago, MangoBoi101 said:

This is assuming that the fullborn has infinite access to all the 16 metals plus atium and they can mist burn all of them.

Mist burn all of them? You mean burn Mists like Vin in HoA?

It would be a good idea to edit the post and add a poll.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Radiant wins then, no questions asked.

Fullborn lacks the offensive output to kill them through that much stormlight, whereas a shardblade is still every bit as lethal.

Now it might take them forever, but it would eventually happen.

Dude, Fullborn has infinite access to Atium, and if he can burn Mist, every Allomantic and Feruchemical power is now supercharged, with Mist he can heal indefinitely, how on Storms would Windrunner win? No way.

Without Mists, Atium provides such an advantage that there is no way for Windrunner to ever hit him with anything, even with a Shardblade. If Windrunner somehow comes down to the ground, he is dead or immobilized indefinitely (F-steel to get to him, F-pewter to break the plate, F-pewter to punch him in a head crushing it, and punching into the spine and heart, A-chromium infinitely leeching - Windrunner can't even move a finger, if he isn't already dead at this point).

[MangoBoi101 he/him]

Yes like vin the fullborn can mistburn all of them.

I also added the poll.

Edited March 31, 2023 by MangoBoi101

[alder24]

1 minute ago, MangoBoi101 said:

Yes like vin the fullborn can mistburn all of them.

I also added the poll.

If Fullborn can burn Mists to fuel his Allomancy (like Vin when Ascending to Preservation), he can fuel his Feruchemy with it as well:

Spoiler

Questioner

As far as the Lord Ruler goes, how did he use the Twinborn thing? Feruchemy and Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

What he had to figure out how to do is: Allomancy is powered by Spiritual power directly from the Shard of Adonalsium. Whereas Feruchemy is powered by your own Investiture and effort being transferred into the thing. What he needed to do was figure out a way to power Feruchemy with Allomantic power, right? You could have done the same thing by fueling it with the Dor, or with Stormlight, or another external. But he only had access to three magics. So what he had to do was figure out that.

So what he's doing is, he's basically taking metals, (since he's a Feruchemist and an allomancers), and he is burning metals that he has Invested himself, but then using... basically, switching it so he gets a burst of Allomantic power that is charged with a Feruchemical attribute. So it's powering Feruchemy with Allomancy by burning the metal that he himself has Invested.

Questioner

So he was essentially putting stuff into the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, priming the pump. He puts it in with Feruchemy. Then he burns it with Allomancy. But that fuels Feruchemy with Allomancy, which allows him to draw on the powers of the Shards, rather than himself. So it's not really a perpetual motion machine, because he's drawing the power from someone else. But it's external, which allows him to break the rules of Feruchemy.

The big question I have is: that works in the book, because you can dig into the technicalities of the book. But that's not gonna work in the movie, right? That explanation right there, that's so many levels over the heads of the audience. So I have to figure out a way to not break the cosmere magic, but make it simpler to understand in the movie. Which is the big headache in writing the screenplay. That's probably the biggest challenge in the screenplay is to figure out how to make that all work.

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

So there is no competition at all. Fullborn has the power to push on traces metal everywhere, can crush buildings with steel push and, his emotional Allomancy is more powerful than it is when used with Duralumin with regular metals, and his Feruchemy is now overpowered. He can push on a Shardblade and a Shardplate with this power, as he basically now holds the equivalent amount of power to the Well of Ascension. He is a god now. Windrunner poses no threat to him.

[Frustration he/him]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He can push on a Shardblade and a Shardplate with this power, as he basically now holds the equivalent amount of power to the Well of Ascension.

No he doesn't. The Well of Ascension could literally move planets, Even when Vin was in the process of becoming Preservation she never got even close to that until she actually became the shard.

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Dude, Fullborn has infinite access to Atium, and if he can burn Mist, every Allomantic and Feruchemical power is now supercharged, with Mist he can heal indefinitely, how on Storms would Windrunner win? No way.

Well for starters slam another planet into theirs. That immediately removes any speed advantage the Fullborn has, as they can't run in space. Second use their spren to create a powerful enough pressure differential to pull them away from the remains of the planet.

Now the Windrunner can stab them repeatedly with a shardblade to their hearts content, once they find the spine it's over. Or if they really want to they can just find a conveinient black hole.

50 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Infinite Stormlight doesnt necessarily mean Infinite Scale (or Reach) of Surges, there are still limits to how much their Bond can channel and Spiritweb can support before Savantism damage sets in. "Infinite Stormlight" basically just a Radiant in a storm with lots of gems, or a Herald before Honor broke.  

Heralds were much more limited than what Radiants can do, and holding more stormlight makes it easier to use. And there is no upper limit to how large of an object they could lash, it just takes more stormlight, which is no longer an issue.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No he doesn't. The Well of Ascension could literally move planets, Even when Vin was in the process of becoming Preservation she never got even close to that until she actually became the shard.

Vin Ascended after consuming every last bit of Mists, If Fullborn has the same amount of Mists available, he will Ascend as well, not to the Preservation, but to the same power level as there was in the Well - maybe he will be limited in what can he do with them, but his Allomancy and Feruchemy is on a god level. It's the same thing, in the Well it was a more concentrated form of it, Mists however are spread across the whole planet.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well for starters slam another planet into theirs. That immediately removes any speed advantage the Fullborn has, as they can't run in space. Second use their spren to create a powerful enough pressure differential to pull them away from the remains of the planet.

Fullborn can open his own perpendicularity and move safely to CR. Please, just admit it. There is no point in arguing about it. Normal Fullborn can already deal with Windrunner, Fullborn with Mists is on another level. Even without Well-level power, without the ability to push on Shardblades, Fullborn still is overpowered with Mists. 

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Now the Windrunner can stab them repeatedly with a shardblade to their hearts content, once they find the spine it's over. Or if they really want to they can just find a conveinient black hole.

Atium and F-steel.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Vin Ascended after consuming every last bit of Mists, If Fullborn has the same amount of Mists available, he will Ascend as well, not to the Preservation, but to the same power level as there was in the Well - maybe he will be limited in what can he do with them, but his Allomancy and Feruchemy is on a god level. It's the same thing, in the Well it was a more concentrated form of it, Mists however are spread across the whole planet.

Still never gave her the level of power that was in the well, until she became a shard. And the Fullborn could not ascend, neither could Vin until after she entered the Well of Ascention. Without that priming the Fullborn just gets more powerful allomancy, not ascention.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn can open his own perpendicularity and move safely to CR.

Sure would be a shame if Shardblades cut on all three realms.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn can open his own perpendicularity and move safely to CR. Please, just admit it. There is no point in arguing about it. Normal Fullborn can already deal with Windrunner, Fullborn with Mists is on another level. Even without Well-level power, without the ability to push on Shardblades, Fullborn still is overpowered with Mists. 

And yet they still lack the ability to kill a Windrunner who has infinite stormlight.

Whereas the Windrunner has the ability to kill them.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Atium and F-steel.

Won't help you in the vacuum of space.

Or in a black hole.

[alder24]

@Frustration I'm not getting into the same discussion with you on this one. We already had one, this is the same as regular Fullborn vs 5th Ideal Windrunner, but one has infinite fuel in form of Stormlight, other has also infinite fuel in form of Mist and supercharged Allomancy and Feruchemy. With Mists Fullborn can also heal indefinitely, and he is no longer limited to his metalminds. So at worst you have a duel of two god-like creatures that can't be killed, at best some weird shenanigans that could immobilize their opponent.

Spoiler

 

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

@Frustration I'm not getting into the same discussion with you on this one. We already had one, this is the same as regular Fullborn vs 5th Ideal Windrunner, but one has infinite fuel in form of Stormlight, other has also infinite fuel in form of Mist and supercharged Allomancy and Feruchemy. With Mists Fullborn can also heal indefinitely, and he is no longer limited to his metalminds. So at worst you have a duel of two god-like creatures that can't be killed, at best some weird shenanigans that could immobilize their opponent.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Probably the most likely outcome.

[MangoBoi101 he/him]

aww man... 

I was hopeing for a show you guys

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, MangoBoi101 said:

aww man... 

I was hopeing for a show you guys

Well...

Try this 73 page show

 

Or this 13 page one

 

Or this five page one

 

If you can't tell we've been stuck in the never ending cycle of desolations for a long time.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well...

Try this 73 page show

 

Or this 13 page one

 

Or this five page one

 

If you can't tell we've been stuck in the never ending cycle of desolations for a long time.

In a fight amongst 2 gods would the fact that the windrunner has an oath to keep make any difference at all? 

I assume using planets as weapons would involve much collateral damage.  Meanwhile the fullborn could be the ultimate bad guy through duralumin and emotional allomancy to build up massive hordes of innocent worshipers. 

A messed up way to win a fight.  

But when it is God's vs Gods and neither can die or be hurt I imagine squires and populations will play a larger role.  

 

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, 5th ideal Radiant with infinite stormlight probably can't die short of anti - investiture/Nightblood/an equivalent, which isn't part of a Fullborn power set, but a Fullborn with atium and Mists is also unbeatable, so the fight goes on forever or until someone decides to leave.

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm with Quantus on this one, infinite access to Investiture does not equate uncapping usage limitations.

As for some dumb semantic nitpicking, my other question is how you're measuring infinite. If we're talking unlimited access to the Mists, burning ALL the Mists is a known method to Ascend on Scadrial (not sure how that works when a Shard is alive and well there though). That's a very different prospect from a Windrunner flying in a Highstorm or standing next to someone with a Perpendicularity open as a direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm where they have unlimited Stormlight, but so far no known mechanism for Ascension. If it gets to Shard vs. Radiant, that's a different weight class, even if the Radiant is nearly impossible to kill. 

My other nitpick for how "infinite" is measured is based on how it dispenses the 17 metals the Fullborn has access to. A Fullborn with infinite access to chunks of aluminum probably could conceive of a way to take down a 5th Order Windrunner, even if if involves using some of the Aluminum as a Hemalurgic spike.

A question for @Frustration, do you mind at least doing a play-by-play of how a 5th Ideal Windrunner goes about throwing a planet or creating a blackhole without also dooming themselves? Or is this a pyrrhic victory where you die slightly slower than the target? 

Besides, unless I'm missing something and Stormlight grants immortality, the Fullborn with infinite Atium just outlives the Windrunner even in that "eternal conflict" scenario.

[Frustration he/him]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

A question for @Frustration, do you mind at least doing a play-by-play of how a 5th Ideal Windrunner goes about throwing a planet or creating a blackhole without also dooming themselves? Or is this a pyrrhic victory where you die slightly slower than the target? 

Not creating a black hole, finding one.

Though with infinite Stormlight they could probably do the later anyway.

So on crashing a planet into the first one.

1. Find another planet

2. Lash it repeatedly towards the first one

3. Kaboom

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

So on crashing a planet into the first one.

1. Find another planet

2. Lash it repeatedly towards the first one

3. Kaboom

Lol (still laughing my head off), best explanation I've ever witnessed 

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not creating a black hole, finding one.

 

I mean, you probably could. Maybe a super reverse lashing?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not creating a black hole, finding one.

You know, there is a problem with lashing a black hole - as soon they get close to it, they're dead. Investiture won't help here, as it also is affected by gravity in the same way energy is, and it will fall into a black hole. And how do you touch a black hole to lash it, when its singularity is beyond the event horizon, and the event horizon isn't a physical thing that you can touch?

[Argenti he/him]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You know, there is a problem with lashing a black hole - as soon they get close to it, they're dead. Investiture won't help here, as it also is affected by gravity in the same way energy is, and it will fall into a black hole. And how do you touch a black hole to lash it, when its singularity is beyond the event horizon, and the event horizon isn't a physical thing that you can touch?

I'm sure we'll figure it in the space era