[Stormlight 5] The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory: The Official Stormfaker's Support Group

[alder24]

19 hours ago, therunner said:

True, the permanent death the way it happened to Jezrien is very different, however I would lean in the direction that people who are literally bound together have higher likelihood to detect something than a spren that was added on to that connection after the fact, and has never demonstrated any such ability.

Actually that quote is in context of Stormfather seeing things from the perspective of Highstorm, he says so a sentence or two before, so this is not much of a connection between the two of them, unless you wish to argue that Stormfather has that kind of Connection to everyone in Highstorm. He even says that he does not know where they are, only Ishar and most likely only because of Ishars actions (i.e. Ishar cursing him out).

We have no evidence of Stormfather being able to even detect Heralds, however we know other Heralds are tied together and can sometimes feel each other dying (if in extreme circumstances), to me that means that this particular piece of evidence points much strongly away from Stormfather than towards.

Yes, I think I wrote about that Ishar and Stormfather connection shenanigans as the SF sees the world mostly through the Hightstorm - I'm well aware how weak this argument is but it was never my main point. Don't get me wrong, I've noticed that SF in Prologue is a little different, something is not fitting, I like Ishar the Stormfaker theory, which is greatly argumented and well-written. But some points just don't seem right. For me it's choosing between ignoring already well-established fact in Prelude that Heralds can't feel each other regular death or that SF somehow can feel it as we quite literally have no information about it from books - which leaves open doors for speculations. This one singular argument was always the theory breaking point for me. But I will gladly be wrong, just need some more definite "prove" (not full confirmation). Right now it's just much more believable in my opinion that it's The Stormfather the whole time, who is lying a little bit or just fully manipulating Gavilar, both are twists on their own. And It's just fun to speculate and discuss it

19 hours ago, mdross81 said:

As I’ve thought about it more, I’ve come up with a possible explanation for the ripple of Stormlight through the SF when the Herald dies (though it’s based on this entity actually being the SF).

Could be that the Herald’s soul is essentially Lashed to Braize when they die (Spiritual Adhesion?). Whatever the mechanics, it seems plausible enough that transporting the Herald’s soul to Braize requires the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly and the Stormlight comes from the storm, or from the Spiritual Realm via the storm/SF. Alternatively, we see an effect on the SF simply because he is a remnant of Honor who was a party to the Oathpact.

This would explain the frost because whenever we see it, it seems to accompany the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly.

One of these days we’ll get specifics on the mechanics of the Oathpact right?

That's a very good explanation. Makes a lot of sense. I was wondering if when cognitive shadows like Heralds are dieing, are their souls remaining the same, or are their souls infused with investiture and copied into new soul, when old goes Beyond. Most likely the fist one, but I don't think we fully know what is exactly happening to Heralds and Fused souls when they are dieing except for being damaged. 

[Lego Mistborn]

On 5/15/2022 at 9:40 AM, Frustration said:

Where did you get that from?

Or this one?

Is that not what the recreance was? Odium was the god of the humans, and they destroyed their planet and came to Roshar, bringing Odium with. We know the singers/listeners(I can't remember which group is which) used to serve honor and Cultivation, but somewhere the sides switched.

This is also support with this WoB, specifically the questioners phrasing. Also, since all investiture generally has healing effects, and invested parasites would also probably resist investiture based healing, I find the questioner's theory unlikely and not sufficient evidence to disprove my suggestions that Ashyn's magic wasn't originally disease based.

Quote

Aurimus

Secondly a theory of mine is around the healing factor of Stormlight. I believe that the healing was added later by Honor because it would heal away the Ashyn diseases that bring powerful surgebinding - it's Tanavast's way of preventing the Ashyn magic system following Odium and Humanity over to Roshar. Can you confirm healing is a newer addition to Stormlight, or comment on this at all?

Brandon Sanderson

For the second, I'll RAFO for now. Interesting theory!

Footnote: Source found here

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14402

 

 

 

As for Ashyn's disease magic. This WoB states that it has not always worked that way, which I take to mean once Odium left Ashyn.

Quote

beer_in_an_esky

1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that?

2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based?

3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet.

2) No.

3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11304

 

 

 

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Is that not what the recreance was? Odium was the god of the humans, and they destroyed their planet and came to Roshar, bringing Odium with. We know the singers/listeners(I can't remember which group is which) used to serve honor and Cultivation, but somewhere the sides switched.

Yes but where did you get the idea that Odium powered Ashynite magic? Odium hates investing in places, why would he do it in Ashyn? And what told you that the catycalism of Ashyn was when the magic changed?

Edited May 16, 2022 by Frustration

[RedBlue]

I’m in the ‘probably the real Stormfather’ camp, but for the sake of argument let’s assume that it is Ishar impersonating the Stormfather. What would that add to the story?

Presumably, it would be upsetting to Dalinar, but I doubt it would change his plans or the way he feels about Ishar.

Gavilar is dead, so unless he’s somehow going to play a role in SA5 beyond the prologue, he wouldn’t be relevant to any Ishar reveal.

Ishar seems to have dropped the impersonation scheme and done other things for six years. Also, we know very little about him other than him being god-king of banana-pants town. So the reveal wouldn’t really change or add much there.

That leaves the Stormfather as the last person I can think of who might be affected by this twist. Would he be angry at Ishar? Would he try to undermine Dalinar as a result (since Dalinar wants to try to work with Ishar)? It doesn’t sound very different from their current dynamic, as the Stormfather is often difficult and unhelpful with Dalinar.

 

To be honest, I’d be more on board with this theory if I could see more dramatic potential. Does anyone have ideas about how this could play out? What are the juicy conflicts here?

[teknopathetic]

5 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I’m in the ‘probably the real Stormfather’ camp, but for the sake of argument let’s assume that it is Ishar impersonating the Stormfather. What would that add to the story?

Presumably, it would be upsetting to Dalinar, but I doubt it would change his plans or the way he feels about Ishar.

Gavilar is dead, so unless he’s somehow going to play a role in SA5 beyond the prologue, he wouldn’t be relevant to any Ishar reveal.

Ishar seems to have dropped the impersonation scheme and done other things for six years. Also, we know very little about him other than him being god-king of banana-pants town. So the reveal wouldn’t really change or add much there.

That leaves the Stormfather as the last person I can think of who might be affected by this twist. Would he be angry at Ishar? Would he try to undermine Dalinar as a result (since Dalinar wants to try to work with Ishar)? It doesn’t sound very different from their current dynamic, as the Stormfather is often difficult and unhelpful with Dalinar.

 

To be honest, I’d be more on board with this theory if I could see more dramatic potential. Does anyone have ideas about how this could play out? What are the juicy conflicts here?

To me, it is Brandon starting to add depth to what the Heralds were up to. If the final 5 books are going to be herald focused, then I would expect to see more and more Herald machinations. Ishar has been hinted at as a villain for a very long time, so I am happy to get hints of what he had been doing up until the night of Gavilar's death. Ishar seems like he was still engaging in the world, so I believe he would have been active in some way. Having him manipulate Gavilar lets us see what the big bad herald has been doing.  We know Ishar has been doing things, so why not this thing. We don't have to add anything to the story if it was just Ishar doing Ishar stuff.

If we assume the Stormfather was really talking to Gavilar 100%, then we now have to fit in another potentially antagonistic figure into the plot were there has been no foreshadowing of such a thing. If the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, then the Stormfather is not who we think he is. We really have to distrust the Stormfather if we believe Gavilar was talking to him because that Stormfather says some deeply problematic things in what appears to be complete earnestness.

I guess I like the payoff of the "Ishar is maybe evil" foreshadowing we have been getting in all the books, and I just feel there would have been hints of Stormfather sneakiness if the Stormfather had been a player for a while. I don't need another reveal - I am hoping for want more depth and the players as they stand.

The narrative payoff for me is more things like "Venli's old gods tricked her, and Gavilar's old gods did the same" sort of parallelism. We also know Gavilar's new goal is to fins out more about Oath-Sworn Sane-Ishar and the Oathpact, so we can already see tendrils of storytelling connecting these two plot points moving forward in book 5. Maybe for drama Ishar connects Gavilar with Dalinar for a little chin-wag? There are a lot of options IMO. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by teknopathetic

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I am definitely on camp stormfaker, i do not believe that is the stormfather at all since the day I read it. To me

1) the entity is very active as a character, while the SF is a very passive character. Active misleading and planning. SF's character has always been like a child refusing change and responsibility. SF has the most consistent charecterization of any in the series with very strong and unique voice. There has been no foreshadowing for him being a bad guy.

2) It negates the wholesome character development SF has been undergoing. He compliments the radiants. Our SF would have killed himself before doing that pre WoR.

3) SF never takes responsibility. He would not call himself 'the biggest fool' of them all.

4) The entity has human mannerisms. It also appears in a humanoid shape to Gavilar. Our SF enjoys being a giant face in the storm, thank you very much. He hated humans

Also.....

Come on people, Gavilar calls the heralds ten fools and the entity calls himself 'the biggest fool' of them all! HOW OBVIOUS CAN THAT GET??? Who would the real SF compare himself to? Humans? Spren?? The heralds? Who is the 'all' SF is referring to here??

The entity has to be a herald. Most Probably Ishar.

He is already working on the oathpact.  He is doing freaky spren experiments. My theory is that since humans can break oaths but spren can't, he is trying to replace the heralds with physical spren. Occams Razor. Only problem is the spren can't stay alive. The spren probably needs a nahel bond to survive. 

Anyway replacing heralds seems to be his jam. My theory.

And if it is Ishar, and if Liss is vedel( i think it's possible, there was a lot of focus put on her) then except Pailiah all the heralds influenced that night and gav's feast. Wicked.

[RedBlue]

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

If we assume the Stormfather was really talking to Gavilar 100%, then we now have to fit in another potentially antagonistic figure into the plot were there has been no foreshadowing of such a thing. If the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, then the Stormfather is not who we think he is. We really have to distrust the Stormfather if we believe Gavilar was talking to him because that Stormfather says some deeply problematic things in what appears to be complete earnestness.

44 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

the entity is very active as a character, while the SF is a very passive character. Active misleading and planning. SF's character has always been like a child refusing change and responsibility. SF has the most consistent charecterization of any in the series with very strong and unique voice. There has been no foreshadowing for him being a bad guy

I think this is my main point of disagreement with the Stormfaker theory. 

I’ve never thought of the SF as being a ‘good guy’. Sure he’s working with the good guys for now, but he’s in kind of a grey area. He’s petulant and childish, he doesn’t have much respect for other people or value human life, and he has always been cagey. And that’s setting aside that one time he tried to kill everyone.

The SF likes to present himself as a force of nature that exists outside of human ideas of right or wrong, but as we see during Eshonai’s death flashback in ROW, that’s not really how the SF is.

Prologue!SF behaves very similar to current!SF in my opinion. Prologue!SF is petulant and childish, he has no real respect for Gavilar, lying and withholding information to try to manipulate him. Prologue!SF and current!SF are both terrible at reading people, trying to control events from behind the scenes but being so bad at it they don’t have that much of an impact.

[+mdross81]

I’ve enjoyed this thread a lot, but I must admit I’ve come down on the side of it actually being the Stormfather. I can’t imagine any other entity that could both present the visions and allow for starting/stopping them at will without a highstorm. And it seems like the SF and Gavilar continue the same conversation both in and then out of the vision so I don’t think we’re dealing with two different entities.

The italics speech is consistent with the way SF speaks directly into Dalinar’s mind. And the switch to small caps after Gavilar shows his true colors, to me, represents the SF pulling away from Gavilar and reverting to speaking the way he speaks to every other character (which includes Kal, Venli, Eshonai, Syl, Lopen, and Navani and the wedding guests).

Appearing as a shimmering figure has happened with Dalinar, both in the visions and at least once in the physical realm (RoW  107: The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar—a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar, yet extending into infinity.)

The making a new Herald thing is weird, but explainable. Either as the SF just letting Gavilar think that was the plan, while actually planning to make Gavilar a Bondsmith and then having Gavilar make new Heralds. Or as the SF trying something other than bonding a human as a first attempt given he doesn’t seem too keen to be bonded.

It makes sense to me that the SF would notice a Herald dying, either because he’s a remnant of Honor who was a party to the Oathpact, or because - as evidenced by the frost - transporting a Herald to Braize involves a significant amount of Stormlight used very quickly, and that Light would come through the storm or the SF.

To the extent we see a different demeanor later with Dalinar, I think that is just the SF taking a different approach after things didn’t work out with Gavilar. The Stormfather works very hard to slow roll explanations - particularly controversial ones - with Dalinar. He likely knows that Dalinar would have been raised in the same Vorin-steeped culture that ultimately made Gavilar unsuitable and wants to take things slower with reveals that challenge Vorin orthodoxy. Remember also that Gavilar was working a number of different angles to find out information though, so he may have figured out more on his own that the SF then begrudgingly confirmed.

I’m not overly concerned by the line about not trying again with a Kholin because desperate times call for desperate measures.

The biggest thing that bothers me if this was the SF is the seeming lie to Dalinar in OB 38 when he says that in the millennia since Aharietiam none of the other nine Heralds have died and returned to Damnation. But he’s generally been reticent to share info about the Heralds for whatever reason. And may have just decided that it didn’t matter anyway since the True Desolation and the Everstorm had now come.

So while I felt something off on my initial read, and I kinda wanted this to be another situation like Chana Davar (which I think @teknopathetic absolutely nailed), cards on the table: I think it is the SF.

I’ve got a open mind about this though if y’all think I missed something or my analysis is off.
 

 

[teknopathetic]

4 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I’ve enjoyed this thread a lot, but I must admit I’ve come down on the side of it actually being the Stormfather. I can’t imagine any other entity that could both present the visions and allow for starting/stopping them at will without a highstorm. And it seems like the SF and Gavilar continue the same conversation both in and then out of the vision so I don’t think we’re dealing with two different entities.

No worries Mdross81! Thanks for considering it. We for sure could be wrong, but it fun to have a place to discuss. And to be fair, some people have felt the Stormfather has been sketch from the start. So maybe I did just miss the foreshadowing (though I still think it is Ishar haha)

---------------------------------------------------

But here are my rebuttals to your first point:

On Pulling People Into the Visions

• Dalinar and the Potter only experienced the vision when the Highstorm rages by. The visions, pre-bond, seem to be quite passive and automatic
• The Stormfather cannot just pull in anyone whenever he wants. He has to wait for the Highstorm to roll past Queen Then to pull her in to a vision that Dalinar wants her to see. The Stormfather and Dalinar explicitly wait for a Highstorm for this Multi-City vision-experience to go down, so this goes against what we see Gavilar doing.
  • Bondsmith Dalinar, not the Stormfather, can touch people and bring them in to a vision when these people are in the same room as him. 
  • And Dalinar is able to control and summon the visions at will only after he has bonded the Stormfather
  • Dalinar cannot pull people in from a distance, and the Stormfather cannot pull in people like Then unless those people are near a highstorm
• So to me, it doesn't seem like the Stormfather can take in unbonded people without a High Storm
  • A bonsmith, however, absolutely can pull people into visions at will. 
    
    On Seeing Into Buildings
    [Granted, I need to do a re-read and pay attention to this specifically. I could misremember here]
• We also get from Riding the Winds that the Stormfather cannot see into buildings (though can do so after bonded with Dalinar and when Dalinar is inside one of those buildings).
• So how is the Stormfather able to mind-talk specifically with Gavilar AND be able to see what is going on in a room? There is no bond and there is no Highstorm, so how is that working? This is different from what we normally see.
• There are times when the Stormfather booms something into a room, but full on mental conversations didn't come until a bond started. 

So is the Stormfather lying about there being a bond? Or is something weird going on here? 

Edited May 17, 2022 by teknopathetic

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Hey sorry if it got mentioned somewhere in the thread already, but I stopped reading about halfway though when it became a debate over semantics. When did we find out that Chana was dead? I don't recall seeing that anywhere in text. Was it a WoB?

[+mdross81]

47 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

• So how is the Stormfather able to mind-talk specifically with Gavilar AND be able to see what is going on in a room? There is no bond and there is no Highstorm, so how is that working? This is different from what we normally see.
• There are times when the Stormfather booms something into a room, but full on mental conversations didn't come until a bond started. 

So is the Stormfather lying about there being a bond? Or is something weird going on here? 

Yeah, you’re not wrong on any of these points about the “Stormfather” and Gavilar doing things without a bond, that we only ever saw Dalinar and the Stormfather do post-bonding.

I don’t have any great explanations. Could be that it’s possible to develop a sufficient Connection even without a bond. Like maybe Dalinar could have gone in and out of visions at will, had mental conversations, and allowed the Stormfather to see into buildings before bonding him. But because he was approaching Radiance and was able to bond the Stormfather early in the process, we never got to see that. Or maybe after getting burned by Gavilar, the SF just decided not to allow any of those more advanced features until he saw whether a bond was feasible.

Edited May 17, 2022 by mdross81

[teknopathetic]

13 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Hey sorry if it got mentioned somewhere in the thread already, but I stopped reading about halfway though when it became a debate over semantics. When did we find out that Chana was dead? I don't recall seeing that anywhere in text. Was it a WoB?

Before SP5 came out and before the WoB that Taln Never Broke,  I posted a theory that Shallan’s mom is Chana in a thread called “Taln Wasn’t the Herald Who Broke - It was Chanarach”.  That theory became somewhat infamous with many people falling on both sides of believing it. The theory became more tolerated when we got the WoB that Taln Never Broke, and then S5P added a bit more circumstantial evidence as well  

if you’ve read SP5, then you may have noticed some additional information about one of the heralds that lends some credence to this theory. 

What happens in the S5P

Spoiler

The voice Gavilar is talking to feels a herald die and return to Braize. So now we know a herald did in fact die. Coincidentally, the night of Gavilar’s party from the prologues is occurring the same month Shallan killed her mother. So the idea that Shallan killed her herald mother is making a lot of sense  

 

As well, the prologue opens up with a discussion on if Chana really had red hair (perhaps a reminder to readers that Chana looks like Shallan)

i am personally a little worried Brandon is trolling me specifically haha, but we will see! 

Edited May 17, 2022 by teknopathetic

[SwordNimiForPresident]

6 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Before SP5 came out and before the WoB that Taln Never Broke,  I posted a theory that Shallan’s mom is Chana in a thread called “Taln Wasn’t the Herald Who Broke - It was Chanarach”.  That theory became somewhat infamous with many people falling on both sides of believing it. The theory became more tolerated when we got the WoB that Taln Never Broke, and then S5P added a bit more circumstantial evidence as well  

if you’ve read SP5, then you may have noticed some additional information about one of the heralds that lends some credence to this theory. 

What happens in the S5P

  Hide contents

The voice Gavilar is talking to feels a herald die and return to Braize. So now we know a herald did in fact die. Coincidentally, the night of Gavilar’s party from the prologues is occurring the same month Shallan killed her mother. So the idea that Shallan killed her herald mother is making a lot of sense  

i am personally a little worried Brandon is trolling me specifically haha, but we will see! 

That's interesting. The bit about a Herald dying slipped right past me. Honestly there were enough surprises in there that I should probably read it a few more times. Book 5 is gonna be juicy.

It would also be quite funny if Brandon went out of his way to troll you personally.

[cometaryorbit]

I am undecided on this for several reasons:

- Clearly Gavilar misunderstood things massively, so did the Stormfather actually lie, or did Gavilar just misinterpret? We know the Stormfather "hates being misquoted" but Gavilar didn't discuss his plans with anyone... maybe if he had, the SF would have realized what was wrong. 

- Is it actually possible to make someone new into a Herald? If not, then Gavilar's SF did lie.

- We know a bond makes spren act 'more human', but we haven't really seen whether the same spren bonding to different humans acts differently. If that happens, that could explain some of the difference between how the SF acts here vs. with Dalinar. If not, a fake SF looks more likely.

- this is an early draft, and some of the wording / italics vs caps speech might not be final.

[MerlinArcane]

So, in the hopes of reopening friendly discussion. Did the new WoB’s change anything? 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:50 PM, MerlinArcane said:

So, in the hopes of reopening friendly discussion. Did the new WoB’s change anything? 

We did learn about a month after the last post in this thread that the Stormfather did know about Jezrien's death, so either Stormfather mentioning it got skipped for redundancy reasons or he never said anything. Hard to say which, given Brandon also skips over Adolin and Renarin learning about Evi's death or Wax telling everyone he had a memory from Kelsier's perspective in the coin, so it would not be unprecedented.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

On 5/16/2022 at 7:48 PM, teknopathetic said:

So is the Stormfather lying about there being a bond? Or is something weird going on here? 

On this, I will note that the below quote from Oathbringer chapter 65 suggests he temporarily grants the power of Adhesion to anyone he gives a vision to. So it does seem to me that Gavilar probably would have a bond to the Stormfather at that point, even if he says otherwise. (As a side note, he's oddly reticent about telling Dalinar that tidbit. I'm not really sure why, but it stood out to me.)

Spoiler

“Would you help me understand?” he whispered to the Stormfather.

What makes you think I can?

“Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered. “I’ve spoken new languages in the visions. You can make me speak Azish.”

The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you.

 

On 5/16/2022 at 6:16 PM, mdross81 said:

The making a new Herald thing is weird, but explainable. Either as the SF just letting Gavilar think that was the plan, while actually planning to make Gavilar a Bondsmith and then having Gavilar make new Heralds. Or as the SF trying something other than bonding a human as a first attempt given he doesn’t seem too keen to be bonded.

I definitely think this is a lie, regardless of whether it's the Stormfather or a faker, because of the hesitation when he speaks about it:

Spoiler

That is true. I do not speak in human ways. But still, once you are a…Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you?

 

On 5/10/2022 at 9:20 AM, teknopathetic said:

According to the Coppermind for Stomlight 1-4, "The Stormfather has two different "modes" of speech. He uses small caps when talking to those unbonded to him, or when speaking so that everyone can hear him. He speaks normally when communicating directly with Dalinar after the latter becomes a Bondsmith"

Regarding this, I will point to Words of Radiance chapters 82 & 83 where the Stormfather speaks normally (no caps) to Dalinar even before the bond. It's a long exchange, so I'll just quote the part where it switches to showcase that he uses both modes:

Spoiler

“It should not end this way,” the Almighty said.

Storm it! Dalinar shoved Roion away and strode out into the center of the plateau, looking up toward the sky. “Answer me! Let me know if you can hear me!”

“I can.”

Finally. Some progress. “Are you the Almighty?”

“I said I am not, child of Honor.”

“Then what are you?”

I AM THAT WHICH BRINGS LIGHT AND DARKNESS. The voice took on more of a rumbling, distant quality.

I will more generally add that we know the Stormfather's behavior in recent years is different from how he was before, because according to Rhythm of War chapter 87 the honorspren and Kalak believe him to be "erratic" nowadays:

Spoiler

“Looks good,” Kelek said. “Nothing too unexpected, though I have to say he does have a good point. An unchained Bondsmith is dangerous, but the Stormfather did choose one anyway.…”

“You know how erratic the Stormfather has been lately,” said an elderly female honorspren at Kelek’s side. “His wisdom is no longer something to trust.”

“Valid, valid,” Kelek said. “Well then, next witness.”

 

On 5/12/2022 at 2:36 PM, teknopathetic said:

I am not willing to believe the heralds are magically unable to see that the Tu'kar God King persona is not full crazy-town banana-pants.

This is actually entirely plausible to me because of what the W&W Ars Arcanum says about Connection:

Spoiler

Connector Ferrings can store Spiritual Connection in a duralumin metalmind, reducing other people’s awareness and friendship with them during active storage, and can tap it at a later time in order to speedily form trust relationships with others.

---

That said, this is one of the stronger posts I've seen on the Stormfaker theory so far, so props @teknopathetic for that.

Also, sorry about replying to an old thread, but since someone else already rezzed it I figured this was the best place to continue discussing the idea for now.

Edit: Why the heck are the next page buttons in my post?? They aren't shown in the editor... Technology is bizarre sometimes.

Edit 2: Oh, it's paginating the comment at the horizontal line. Well that's new. Guess I'm removing it.

Edited December 21, 2023 by LewsTherinTelescope
fix dumb

[Leonpaintbrush]

Late to the party, but throwing my hat in the ring with the Stormfaker believers, and just want it noted before SF5 at the end of the year. Its so clear to me that the "Stormfather" we see here is off and wrong. Either we're to believe that the author has actively lied to us about the characterization and mannerisms of this entity for four books, or we're to trust that the author hasn't actively deceived and lied to us and rewards close reading and analysis.

I think Stormfaker is Ishar. Ishar is a Bondsmith from Ashyn. Access to his Honorblade is irrelevant to that fact. The great migration took place before the existence of the Oathpact and was manifested due to a combination of Elsecalling heightened by Bondsmithing. Thus, Ishar clearly had access to Bondsmith abilities prior to even arriving on Roshar. Without access to his Honorblade, he is still an Ashynite Bondsmith (whatever that entails--but the max power level of that is a cross-planetary mass migration when you add in Elsecalling and a likely Dawnshard's assistance).

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I think Stormfaker is Ishar. Ishar is a Bondsmith from Ashyn. Access to his Honorblade is irrelevant to that fact. The great migration took place before the existence of the Oathpact and was manifested due to a combination of Elsecalling heightened by Bondsmithing. Thus, Ishar clearly had access to Bondsmith abilities prior to even arriving on Roshar. Without access to his Honorblade, he is still an Ashynite Bondsmith (whatever that entails--but the max power level of that is a cross-planetary mass migration when you add in Elsecalling and a likely Dawnshard's assistance).

We don't know if Ishar is still an Ashynite Bondsmith. Honor might have taken that away from him, because Honor didn't want the disaster from Ashyn to be repeated on Roshar as well - that's why he chained Surges in the first place.

Moreover, Ashynite Surgebinding isn't the same as Rosharan Surgebinding - in this case the name Surgebinding simply means invested art, it doesn't mean they are similar in the way one obtains them, or in the way they work. We know Ashynite powers are Cultivation-based, they are granted by illnesses - you get ill, you get powers, you get rid of your illness, you lose them. But that's how they work now, we know that the destruction of Ashyn changed the way those powers work in some way, but we don't know anything more than that.

I think Ishar lost his powers after becoming a Herald - he became a Cognitive Shadow, a highly invested entity immune to diseases - he can't have Ashynite powers when he is that invested, just like Returned have immunity to diseases. Combining this with the fact that he reclaimed his Honorblade at most a year before RoW, he couldn't have hijacked Gavilar's Stormfather, he had no powers to do that. But that's assuming Ashynite powers were disease-based before its destruction (which I think is reasonable). If not, I think Honor would have demanded to take those powers away from him before he became a Herald. Honor was too cautious to allow a wild Surgebinder to have powers that already destroyed one planet (and Ishar too that's why he bound Radiants into Orders with Oaths and restrictions, that's why he would have agreed to this).

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the Investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

Spoiler

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

[Leonpaintbrush]

Hi @alder24, thanks for the reponse.

I agree with you that we don't know if Ishar is still an Ashynite Bondsmith, but without hard evidence to the contrary, I don't necessary believe he's not, particularly when he believes that the "God" that once bound him is dead.  I agree that Honor might have taken any Ashyn abilities away from him, but find it equally plausible is that Honor did not. Again, without evidence that showcases that Honor did take it away, I have no reason to believe that he would.

I'm not sure that I agree with any characterization of Tanavast/Honor as particularly cautious. His own oversight or negligence in the creation of the Oathpact allowed the spren to mimic the type of bond he created and give surges to humans without Oaths. A Shard finding out after-the-fact that his own splinters can mimic what He did with the Heralds and provide unfettered access to the surges cuts heavily against any proposition that Honor was some very careful, plotting entity that expected the surges to be abused and took precautions to prevent it. If anything, the facts of the story paint Honor as negligent considering that he was shattered/splintered/"killed" as a result of his decisions. If Honor really wanted the surges to be bound, the surges would have been fully contained from the time of the Oathpact--if not fully bound at the time of the great migration--but they were not. Calling Honor anything but negligent here is to ignore his clear culpability and oversight in the spren's ability to form a nahel bond and give men unfettered access to the same surges that destroyed Ashyn.

I agree that Ashynite Bondsmithing may have been different from Rosharan--but just like Yolish Lightweaving deals in the same fundamental principles as Rosharan Lightweaving, I think by using a broad term, we can assume that the same basic components are at play--we're dealing with a magic system that largely deals in Connection and its manipulation. Its not like Ashyn Bondsmiths were dealing with the surge of Progression in order to use regrowth.

It seems clear that during the great migration Ishar likely had access to Bondsmith abilities--because he's literally the only other Bondsmith we know of and the only Bondsmith of the Heralds. It seems, then, extremely likely that he arrived on Roshar with his Ashynite Bondsmith abilities intact. Even were his magic disease-based--just by having access to Bondsmith abilities, generally, and being able to play with Connection, generally, suggests that Ishar could circumvent a limitation such as "I need to be sick in order to have this power". A Bondsmith that could help make a feat like the great migration happen, that could help bind the surges to oath levels for the Knights Radiant, and that could literally attempt to steal the connection between Dalinar and the Stormfather is clearly a being that has an understanding of a fundamental surge at such a level that to assume that his hands would be tied to his ability to catch a disease is laughable to me.

Edited February 26 by Leonpaintbrush

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

His own oversight or negligence in the creation of the Oathpact allowed the spren to mimic the type of bond he created and give surges to humans without Oaths.

That's not related to Oathpact at all. Spren mimicked Honorblades and that surprised Honor because he didn't teach them and Heralds to do that. Sure, it was an oversight Honor didn't predict, but he had no way to stop that from happening in the first place.

18 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I'm not sure that I agree with any characterization of Tanavast/Honor as particularly cautious.

How else would you call him? He bound Surges, preventing people from accessing the most destructive forms of power, he bound Heralds with the Oathpact. He made sure that what happened on Ashyn won't happen on Roshar - allowing Ishar to retain his powers, the very powers that destroyed Ashyn, the very person who was the first to experiment with Surges and bears some responsibility for Ashyn destruction, seems irresponsible and counterproductive. 

18 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

A Shard finding out after-the-fact that his own splinters can mimic what He did with the Heralds

He most likely knew that all along. A Shard has intuitive knowledge about their invested art. He would have known what Spren are capable of. He was surprised that they did that on their own. The wording of this event from Honor implies that he knew about this possibility, WoR ch 4:

Quote

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible."

 

18 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

provide unfettered access to the surges cuts heavily against any proposition that Honor was some very careful, plotting entity that expected the surges to be abused and took precautions to prevent it

By this point Surges were already limited in what they could do. They were chained by Honor. Those chains are now gone or weakened, allowing people like Ishar and Dalinar to do things that weren’t possible in the past. It’s not the Radiants who were limited by this, it’s the Surges directly. Wild Surgebinders weren't a problem for Honor - it was Ishar's idea to bound Radiants with Orders and Ideals, Ishar did this.

It looks like during Nohadon's times Radiants didn't exist yet and some problems with how those people use their powers were just discovered - like what Alakavish did, showed Surgebinders need to be limited and that's how Radaints were created. But all those powers were already chained by Honor shortly after the arrival of humanity, unable to do things that could cause destruction of Roshar on the scale of Ashyn.

18 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

If anything, the facts of the story paint Honor as negligent considering that he was shattered/splintered/"killed" as a result of his decisions.

Was this negligence or sacrifice? Maybe he sacrificed himself to imprison Odium in the system forever? Or maybe Odium was simply stronger, but Honor did the best he could? I don't see any negligence here.

18 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

If Honor really wanted the surges to be bound, the surges would have been fully contained from the time of the Oathpact--if not fully bound at the time of the great migration--but they were not. 

Firstly Surges and Oathpact are unrelated. Secondly a Shard can't prevent people from accessing their invested art. Invested arts are part of the nature of Cosmere. They can tweak and limit some stuff, but invested arts are natural manifestations of Shard, they can't be fully contained. Honor could not have prevented Spren from bonding with people - they are autonomous, they can make their own choices. Honor could not have taken Spren's powers away from them - they are literal pieces of creation, they are made out of investiture, they are Surges. What you are proposing is not possible.

Honor did the second best thing he could - he limited Surges in their use, preventing people from accessing the most dangerous aspects of them. Again, wild Surgebinders weren't a problem (for Honor) anymore because Surges were already chained by Honor.

Spoiler

CaptainRyan

*written* Could a Shard refuse to "fuel" a magic user? E.g. Could Preservation have refused to "fuel" Ham's pewter? (Please, for the question, assume Preservation is whole and undamaged.)

Brandon Sanderson

*written* No, but he could have interfered.

*spoken* So, the answer is "no, he couldn't." Like, if you just had the Allomancy going, like--

CaptainRyan

They can't shut you off?

Brandon Sanderson

They can't shut you off, but they can interfere with you using it. They could do other things. But, like, the magic, it would be like saying, "I refuse to let gravity work on this person."

CaptainRyan

But couldn't a Shard-- Technically, they can control forces--

Brandon Sanderson

No, they can't, but they can interfere with it, does that make sense? ...Gravity is not gone, but this person is being interfered with and their relationship to these sorts of things.

CaptainRyan

Kind of like if I throw your pen in the air, gravity's not gone, but I've interfered with something.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, exactly. And you can, like, twist the gravity, so it's pointing... But the laws of natures, burning is, like, a law of nature, and things like that. And they can circumvent, and they can twist, and they can bend, but the laws of nature are still the laws of nature.

CaptainRyan

They can't just cut it off?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

19 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I agree that Ashynite Bondsmithing may have been different from Rosharan--but just like Yolish Lightweaving deals in the same fundamental principles as Rosharan Lightweaving, I think by using a broad term, we can assume that the same basic components are at play--we're dealing with a magic system that largely deals in Connection and its manipulation. Its not like Ashyn Bondsmiths were dealing with the surge of Progression in order to use regrowth.

Of course. I meant different mainly in the way one acquires those powers - not though a Nahel Bond. 

19 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

It seems clear that during the great migration Ishar likely had access to Bondsmith abilities--because he's literally the only other Bondsmith we know of and the only Bondsmith of the Heralds. It seems, then, extremely likely that he arrived on Roshar with his Ashynite Bondsmith abilities intact. Even were his magic disease-based--just by having access to Bondsmith abilities, generally, and being able to play with Connection, generally, suggests that Ishar could circumvent a limitation such as "I need to be sick in order to have this power". A Bondsmith that could help make a feat like the great migration happen, that could help bind the surges to oath levels for the Knights Radiant, and that could literally attempt to steal the connection between Dalinar and the Stormfather is clearly a being that has an understanding of a fundamental surge at such a level that to assume that his hands would be tied to his ability to catch a disease is laughable to me.

A person that willingly bound Surgebinders into Orders to limit their destructive potential, a person that willingly sacrificed his life for an eternal torture to save Roshar form Odium, a person that opposed Odium after he was influenced by him to start experimenting with Surges, which led to the destruction of his home has all reasons to gave up his Ashynite powers, especially after he witnessed what those powers can do to the entire planet. Ishar likely wasn't a power-hungry individual with a god complex back then like he is now. He was a man good enough to bind himself to the Oathpact for eternity for the good of humanity. 

And the way the Stormfather talks about Ishar and his Bondsmith powers implies that only his Honorblade allows him to access them. If Ishar had Ashynite powers, the Stormfather would have known that and he would have warned Dalinar about them. He warned Dalinar about Ishar's powers only after he saw his Honorblade - he has Bondsmith powers because he has reclaimed his Honorblade. This suggest that Ishar has lost his Ashynite powers. RoW ch 111:

Quote

Yes, the Stormfather said. There was no dispute. But take care; Ishar’s skill as a duelist is a lesser danger. He has recovered his Honorblade. He is a Bondsmith unchained.

[+Crossen]

I think I have a new point from the prologue that I didn't see mentioned here. When Gavilar tells the Stormfather to watch the door for him, the Stormfather rebukes him. But then later tells him about the visitor at the door anyway.

 

Quote

Soon, Amaram arrived with a small collection of people—high-level Sons of Honor. The Stormfather vanished, and Gavilar let them in—but spoke quietly, to the Stormfather, a request. “Watch the door for me. Tell me if Navani, or anyone else, comes to spy on me again.”

I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar.

Gavilar gave no response, expecting that—from past experience—the Stormfather would do as he asked. Instead, he focused on Amaram, and the people he had brought. Three men, two women. One of the men was one of Amaram’s lieutenants. The other four would be new recruits for the Sons of Honor, invited to the feast, and given time exclusively with the king.

...
 

Quote

He was shaken from the moment of solemnity by a voice in his head. Someone is approaching, the Stormfather warned. One of the Listeners. Eshonai, is her name. There is something about this one…

One of the Parshendi? Gavilar shook himself. Embarrassed of being seen so raw before another, even another king. So he welcomed the distraction made by the parshwoman’s arrival.

He dismissed Taravangian, Amaram, and the others for the time being and invited this Eshonai to enter.

It seems like the Stormfather that rebukes Gavilar is not the same as the one that watches the door for him.

I also noticed some continuity errors when going back to read the Oathbringer prologue from Eshonai's POV that may be evidence that Brandon wants to add hints to the Stormfather acting weird:

 

Quote

And finding the king?

Eshonai froze, the door cracked open, allowing her to see into a lush room with a thick red rug and bookshelves lining the walls. So much information just lying around, casually ignored. More surprisingly, King Gavilar himself stood pointing at something on a table, surrounded by five others: two officers, two women in long dresses, and one old man in robes.

Why wasn’t Gavilar at the feast? Why weren’t there guards at the door? Eshonai attuned Anxiety and pulled back, but not before one of the women prodded Gavilar and pointed toward Eshonai. Anxiety pounding in her head, she pulled the door closed.

In the SA5 prologue Gavilar is with 6 people total: Amaram, Amaram's lueitenant, and 4 people new to the Son's of Honor (one later is revealed to be Taravangian and my personal theory is that one of the females is Dova aka Battar). In the OB prologue Gavilar is with 5 people total. Also in the SA5 prologue the Stormfather points Gavilar to Eshonai at the door, while in OB she is pointed out by one of Gavilar's female guests.

I figure that if Brandon did not want to hone in on this moment to showcase the Stormfather acting unusual (like the Navani meeting in the SA 5 prologue) then he would have just glossed over it instead of writing the same scene from different perspectives.

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, Crossen said:

I think I have a new point from the prologue that I didn't see mentioned here. When Gavilar tells the Stormfather to watch the door for him, the Stormfather rebukes him. But then later tells him about the visitor at the door anyway.

I was mentioned here a few times. This is consistent with how Dalinar's Stormfather behaves. First he tells Dalinar at the end of WoR that he won't allow anyone to bond with him, and a few seconds later he accepts Dalinar's Words. Secondly he tells Kaladin in OB that he won't spare people in the storm, and a few moments later he guides Kaladin to Urithiru as a form of apology. With Dalinar in OB, when he visited Azir, he asked the Stromfather if he could speak their language, at first the Stormfather was vague about it, a second later he reluctantly told Dalinar how to do that step by step. In RoW he tells Dalinar not to try to push on him during Highstorm riddings, yet he's intrigued by Dalinar going against the winds when they've discovered Kaladin and the occupation of the Tower. This kind of behavior happens constantly, he tells one thing then shortly after goes against his own words.

31 minutes ago, Crossen said:

I also noticed some continuity errors when going back to read the Oathbringer prologue from Eshonai's POV that may be evidence that Brandon wants to add hints to the Stormfather acting weird:

Or are they just the evidence that this is an alpha version that has not passed through continuity checks? The very first thing said by Brandon before the it starts is:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

This is a very rough draft. I only have been working on this this very week. These prologues to the Stormlight books, they require some really intricate Tetris in making all the pieces lock together. And I’ve already found one mistake I actually made in Rhythm of War to get the timeline to align perfectly. So if you’re looking at this and saying, “Wow, the timeline minutia of the prologues isn’t quite locking together,” we will make that work. So don’t worry about that. Otherwise, things in this are subject to change. There are tweaks I’m going to make. [...]

This is the first draft of the prologue to Stormlight Book Five. 

Your explanation for this doesn't work - there is one person too many in SA5, it can't be explained by the Stormfather being weird. It's just a continuity error.

[listerfeend]

So, I've been team StormFaker since I read the prologue. I felt like he was very very off on my first read, and everything here has only pushed me farther into that camp. One point I have to bring up is specifically related to how much information we have gotten from SF from TWok through RoW.

IF , and I really think it's a big if, the SF we see in the S5P is the same SF we see in books 1-4, then EVERYTHING we have learned from the visions and the conversations between Dal and SF is now suspect. The visions themselves are suspect. We are told BY the SF that he was given the visions and "forced" to give them to someone. Some of the events of the visions have been corroborated, however, all of the best lies are based on truths.

It's been a little bit since I've read everything, I'm gearing up for a re-read of the entire series before SA5 releases, but... Does the possibility of SF fabricating all of the visions change anything we think we know about the world? Or are all the salient points of the visions themselves corroborated by secondary sources?
 

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

So, I've been team StormFaker since I read the prologue. I felt like he was very very off on my first read, and everything here has only pushed me farther into that camp. One point I have to bring up is specifically related to how much information we have gotten from SF from TWok through RoW.

IF , and I really think it's a big if, the SF we see in the S5P is the same SF we see in books 1-4, then EVERYTHING we have learned from the visions and the conversations between Dal and SF is now suspect. The visions themselves are suspect. We are told BY the SF that he was given the visions and "forced" to give them to someone. Some of the events of the visions have been corroborated, however, all of the best lies are based on truths.

It's been a little bit since I've read everything, I'm gearing up for a re-read of the entire series before SA5 releases, but... Does the possibility of SF fabricating all of the visions change anything we think we know about the world? Or are all the salient points of the visions themselves corroborated by secondary sources?

I think visions are true and don't have to be questioned. The Stormfather is a bit off, there is no doubt about it. However, that's one of the reasons why I think Gavilar's Stormfather is the same as Dalinar's - the Stormfather who lies offers far better opportunities for conflict and character growth. A Stormfaker won't change anything for Dalinar, lying Stormfather would change everything, their whole Bond would be based on lies, everything Dalinar relied upon would be based on lies, and there is also realization that he was played like a fiddle by an entity that has some ulterior motive. How would that affect Dalinar? What would he do with his Bond? How differently would Dalinar act after learning the truth? What's the truth? Why did the Stormfather lie? What did he want to achieve? Is this connected to the First Desolation, Recreance or Honor's death? Blaming Ishar for everything gives us nothing but a little bit of shock. 

[teknopathetic]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think visions are true and don't have to be questioned. The Stormfather is a bit off, there is no doubt about it. However, that's one of the reasons why I think Gavilar's Stormfather is the same as Dalinar's - the Stormfather who lies offers far better opportunities for conflict and character growth. A Stormfaker won't change anything for Dalinar, lying Stormfather would change everything, their whole Bond would be based on lies, everything Dalinar relied upon would be based on lies, and there is also realization that he was played like a fiddle by an entity that has some ulterior motive. How would that affect Dalinar? What would he do with his Bond? How differently would Dalinar act after learning the truth? What's the truth? Why did the Stormfather lie? What did he want to achieve? Is this connected to the First Desolation, Recreance or Honor's death? Blaming Ishar for everything gives us nothing but a little bit of shock. 

I think a Stormfaker would change things for Dalinar. This would help him reach character growth concerning the fact that his brother was a huge jackass. It would help Dalinar connect with Navani over how abusive and strange Gavilar was being too.

If Dalinar finds out that Gavilar was being tricked and wasn't really on the path to bondsmithing nearly as much as Dalinar thought, and that Gavilar's greed and ambition actually wasnt really of honour after all but of someone like ishar, then we get the chance for some real emotional confrontation on the level of Dalinar confronting his relationship with who Evy was. And Dalinar needs to confront who his brother really was both for his own sake, but also for his wife's sake too.