alder24 Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: I think a Stormfaker would change things for Dalinar. This would help him reach character growth concerning the fact that his brother was a huge jackass. It would help Dalinar connect with Navani over how abusive and strange Gavilar was being too. If Dalinar finds out that Gavilar was being tricked and wasn't really on the path to bondsmithing nearly as much as Dalinar thought, and that Gavilar's greed and ambition actually wasnt really of honour after all but of someone like ishar, then we get the chance for some real emotional confrontation on the level of Dalinar confronting his relationship with who Evy was. And Dalinar needs to confront who his brother really was both for his own sake, but also for his wife's sake too. This doesn't work for me, you can achieve the same things with lying Stormfather. Moreover Gavilar wasn't really on Dalinar's mind after WoR, when he finally resolved his guilt for not being able to save his brother. Since then he appeared here and there, but there isn't much in terms of internal conflict or struggle. Dalinar right now is more focused on the future and on his position as a leader - how to undermine it in a better way than with the realization that he was just a pawn and his position is based on lies? For me Gavilar seems to be all the result of his own actions and ambitions. He might have been manipulated by Stormfather (real or fake), but he also manipulated him for his own goals and ambitions. Even if his behavior was the result of the Stormfather's manipulation, then the emotional impact would be far greater if it was the real Stormfather - now you have an entity that manipulated both of them for unknown reasons, leading one of them to his death. The stakes are just so much higher than with Ishar as the culprit. But again, Gavilar in my opinion was just a crem on his own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) 26 minutes ago, alder24 said: you can achieve the same things with lying Stormfather This part bothers me as well. How can the entity that is literally the source of Honorspren, also the biggest representation of the Shard of Honor that we have left at this point, be able to lie so thoroughly to Gavilar? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what a spren is and what they are and are not capable of doing, but that seems very...at odds with how I would expect a spren like the SF to even be able to behave. Further, I'm curious what the effect of a bond made with a spren who has been lying and manipulating would even mean. The SF that we've come to know through the current books is obsessed with oaths, with not breaking them, and with what I would consider to be the classical interpretation of "honor". Is all that a lie? How does one so obsessed with oaths get away with misrepresenting and misleading people into making those oaths in the first place? That's neither honorable, nor in the spirit of making those oaths in the first place. The whole point of the oaths is the Intent behind them, that's why the specific words don't matter so much as the general Intent of the oath being made. Basically, if it is the Real SF, then it feels to me as though the Nahel bond between them was forged without informed consent on Dalinar's part, which sort of feels like it shouldn't work in the first place. That last part is pure conjecture on my part, and I don't know if that is the case, but that is..I guess the feeling I get about the oaths in general. In essence, that seems more like something a creature of Odium could and would do (what Ulim did to Venli, in fact) more than something a creature more tied to Honor, like the SF, would even be able to do? If that makes any sense? Edited February 27 by listerfeend 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 58 minutes ago, listerfeend said: This part bothers me as well. How can the entity that is literally the source of Honorspren, also the biggest representation of the Shard of Honor that we have left at this point, be able to lie so thoroughly to Gavilar? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what a spren is and what they are and are not capable of doing, but that seems very...at odds with how I would expect a spren like the SF to even be able to behave. Honor isn't about truth but about BONDS. Even two Honorspren can disagree if a bond is kept or not. Splinters can have intent separate from Shardic intent. Spoiler Questioner It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere. Brandon Sanderson Depends on your definition of god. Questioner Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin Brandon Sanderson So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book. Questioner I was wondering how much- Brandon Sanderson But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place. Questioner The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard. Brandon Sanderson That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement. Questioner Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work? Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not. Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) Spoiler Josh Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'? Brandon Sanderson Splinters often have their own intent. West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011) But how did the Stormfather lie to Gavilar? The weirdest thing was all this talk about making Gavilar into a Herald, which may or may not be true - this can be a lie. What else? I don't trust Gavilar's thoughts about something that the Stormfather has told him in the past. I think that it was Gavilar who kept assuming wrong things in his pride, while the Stormfather at most encouraged him in this belief by omitting the truth by staying silent. For example Gavilar probably never asked the Stormfather if Kalak is really a Herald - he assumed missguided by his religious belief, that Kalak can't be a Herald because they aren't on Roshar. Gavilar had no reason to ask about that because he knew it's impossible. Another example, confirmed in text - Gavilar assumed that it was Taln who acted against the Oathpact because he didn't do what other Heralds did - we know Taln is the only one faithful to the Oathpact. Sure, the Stormfather wanting to make a new Herald is very weird, but most other things he said aren't that much off. In my opinion it was just Gavilar assuming things while the Stormfather was simply lying by omission. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Further, I'm curious what the effect of a bond made with a spren who has been lying and manipulating would even mean. The SF that we've come to know through the current books is obsessed with oaths, with not breaking them, and with what I would consider to be the classical interpretation of "honor". Is all that a lie? No, that's not a lie. But not breaking Oaths is different than telling a lie. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: How does one so obsessed with oaths get away with misrepresenting and misleading people into making those oaths in the first place? What Oaths did the Stormfather forced onto people by misleading them? Dalinar? The Stormfather refused to be bonded at first - it seems like it was the very opposite and he misled people to prevent them from bonding with him. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: The whole point of the oaths is the Intent behind them, that's why the specific words don't matter so much as the general Intent of the oath being made. Basically, if it is the Real SF, then it feels to me as though the Nahel bond between them was forged without informed consent on Dalinar's part, which sort of feels like it shouldn't work in the first place. The Words Dalinar spoke were true, intentional and in line with the Order of Bondsmith, the Stormfather decided to accept those Words - I see no reason for them not to work. They both believed those Oaths were true and valid as per the WoB above. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: That last part is pure conjecture on my part, and I don't know if that is the case, but that is..I guess the feeling I get about the oaths in general. In essence, that seems more like something a creature of Odium could and would do (what Ulim did to Venli, in fact) more than something a creature more tied to Honor, like the SF, would even be able to do? If that makes any sense? I don't understand you here. Which Oaths? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I don't understand you here. Which Oaths? I'm really not explaining my thoughts very well, but basically: Misleading someone about the path they are on, about what they are going to be accomplishing by making these oaths (bonding with the Stormfather in this case, which was done by Dalinar as part of his quest to unite Roshar, and had nothing to do with becoming a Herald or any of that) and about the character of the entity you are bonding with, is way more akin to what Ullim did with Venli than what the extant embodiment of Honor should/could do. Basically, regardless of which way we slice this, if it is the real SF, he has intentionally mislead: Gavilar (by telling him he could become a Herald and restore the Oathpact, intentionally misleading him about the nature of Aharietiam, and I'm sure a few other things from the Prologue that I am not recalling at the moment), Dalinar (If what he told Gavilar was all true, then the reverse goes for Dalinar), or both of them (we haven't had the truth from him at all, which means almost everything we think we know about desolations, Aharietiam, the Heralds, the nature of the Oathpact, etc... is all suspect) Intentionally misleading, either by withholding crucial information, or outright lying, is not Honor, is not of Honor, and therefore should probably be against the very NATURE of the SF. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: The Words Dalinar spoke were true, intentional and in line with the Order of Bondsmith, the Stormfather decided to accept those Words - I see no reason for them not to work. They both believed those Oaths were true and valid as per the WoB above. True, however, they were spoken to a thing that was misrepresenting their own motives and intentions. If Dalinar hadn't meant the words, they wouldn't have worked. If SF hasn't represented themselves accurately, they shouldn't work either... Unless we are saying that SF is just a bad guy and can trick people into bonding him...that seems like a can of worms we don't want to open. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: The Stormfather refused to be bonded at first - it seems like it was the very opposite and he misled people to prevent them from bonding with him. Everything you've said about S5P SF being the real SF would indicate that even his opposition to being bonded is suspect. Did he just say that to further try to entice Dalinar into the Bond, to further SF's own goals? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: But how did the Stormfather lie to Gavilar? The weirdest thing was all this talk about making Gavilar into a Herald, which may or may not be true - this can be a lie. What else? I don't trust Gavilar's thoughts about something that the Stormfather has told him in the past. Everything about Aharietiam was different from Gavilar's perspective compared to what we were shown in the very first prelude in TWoK. Quote Never knowing that Gavilar himself had become familiar with the Stormfather, who had told him the truth. That the Heralds had all long since returned to fight on Damnation. You say you don't trust Gavilar's thoughts about something the Stormfather told him in the past, but you trust that the SF that we see in the Prologue is the one that we see throughout books 1-4...so Obviously that doesn't sway you. We can take SF's words as true, but not Gavilar's? Gavilar even confronts the SF we see about the lying, and there is no rebuttal. He doesn't even pretend that it isn't true, he just mocks Gavilar for knowing so little. This by itself, to me, is proof enough that, while Gavilar certainly had a very high opinion of himself, the things that he believes to be true: The Heralds are all dead, Restares isn't one of them, etc... he believes because he has it on what he thinks is good authority. Even if Gavilar never asked about Restares being one, he felt he didn't have to because he was outright told they were all dead. That one lie accounts for sooo much. You say lying and oaths are two separate things, but your word is your bond. Even Odium has to abide by that, but now the SF doesn't? How does that track? Honor is not just about bonds, that is very reductive, and doesn't reflect how making an oath based on lies makes that oath worthless, as the entire situation is disingenuous. For example, swearing fealty to a person claiming to be a King could potentially be considered treason if that person was not in fact the King, however, the second that it is found out the person is not a King, the oath of fealty is no longer enforceable. Edited February 27 by listerfeend 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, alder24 said: This doesn't work for me, you can achieve the same things with lying Stormfather. What are his motivations here? If both are the stormfather then he is lying to someone. Why? What plans does he have that would require him to lie to G / D or both? What i mean by lying to one or both: he tells dalinar that manifestinng as anything other than the cloud that he is, is very painful. We see this is true when Dalinar pulls part of him to him to open the oathgate, and SF screams in pain. Was that screaming in pain a lie? He shows up to Gavilar in the shape of a man, and never does anything even close to that, even in D's visions. Gavilar was prideful and ignorant, but he wasn't stupid. I don't think he would make wild assumptions (the heralds are all dead) unless the SF had told him something to make him believe that. Do you think SA5 SF was trying to get Gavilar, possibly the worst candidate, to become a herald to actually save Roshar? He would know better than anyone that is not a good or even semi permanent solution. If its the same SF, he is being manipulative. Wether he is lying through his teeth or not is certainly up for debate, but what is the point of this manipulation? So far with Dalinar, he has been actively working with Dalinars plans to defeat Odium. Why, if he has some other plan, is he basically just following Dalinar around? He showed D the visions, and that was basically his contribution. Every step of the way it has been Dalinar who has made strides forward and changed the landscape of the war. That doesnt seem to jive if the SF has an alternate agenda. Even if the agenda is 'stop the desolations' he has been perfectly content to let events play out, and has even hindered the process of defeating Odiums forces by not including information (about the heralds, the bondsmith's abilities, the other radiant orders, connections with other spren like the sibling, helping with the whole honorspren trial situation). Obligatory meme: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Misleading someone about the path they are on, about what they are going to be accomplishing by making these oaths (bonding with the Stormfather in this case, which was done by Dalinar as part of his quest to unite Roshar, and had nothing to do with becoming a Herald or any of that) and about the character of the entity you are bonding with, is way more akin to what Ullim did with Venli than what the extant embodiment of Honor should/could do. I think you assume that if Gavilar's Stormfather is Dalinar's Stormfather then the Stormfather must constantly lie about everything. I don't agree. Even in the prologue we see that the Stormfather has said many things that are true (like about BOM). With Dalinar's Oaths the Stormfather was mostly truthful - he doesn't want to make new Heralds because this is pointless now, the True Desolation has come. Dalinar's Oaths aren't misled. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Basically, regardless of which way we slice this, if it is the real SF, he has intentionally mislead: Gavilar (by telling him he could become a Herald and restore the Oathpact OR that was his real intention. But yes, this can be a lie he told to Gavilar. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Intentionally misleading, either by withholding crucial information, or outright lying, is not Honor, is not of Honor, and therefore should probably be against the very NATURE of the SF. I disagree. Honor is about bonds not truth or lies. Honorspren Sekeir acted really "unhonorable" - imprisoning Kelek and Shallan, lying and misleading about Kelek's state, taking up Kelek's place, using Maya in such a heartless way - surprisingly it's not against Honorspren nature, they were even thinking of switching sides to Odium. This is STILL of Honor, because Honor is not about truth or lies, he's about bonds and oaths. And there is another possibility - the Stormfather lied to cover up some deeper truth. For example the true nature of Honor (why he allow Odium to settle on Roshar in the first place), the nature of gods swapping place during the First Desolation, the deeper nature of Recreance (which he refused to answer in until it was revealed) etc. He lied either to hide something bigger, or he had his own goals he wanted to achieve with Gavilar - plans that failed spectacularly when a Herald died and the True Desolation started. Or maybe in the Stormfather's eyes things he said weren't lies? Quote “They call it Aharietiam,” he said, trailing around the Blades, letting his fingers linger on each one. When he became a Herald, would his Blade become like these, imbued with power and lore? “The end of the world. Was it a lie?” That depends, the Stormfather said in his mind, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: True, however, they were spoken to a thing that was misrepresenting their own motives and intentions. If Dalinar hadn't meant the words, they wouldn't have worked. If SF hasn't represented themselves accurately, they shouldn't work either... Unless we are saying that SF is just a bad guy and can trick people into bonding him...that seems like a can of worms we don't want to open. It doesn't work like that. Look again at the WoB in previous post: "For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not." If they both agree about the words spoken, there is no problem, the Oath is valid, even if the Stormfather is just a mask he wears. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Everything about Aharietiam was different from Gavilar's perspective compared to what we were shown in the very first prelude in TWoK. Was it because the Stormfather directly said it to him, or Gavilar assumed that was the truth based on his religious beliefs? The Stormfather didn't talk about Aharietiam in the prologue. Quote Ah, Gavilar, the Stormfather said. I see. I see my miscalculation. Your entire religious upbringing...created from the lies of Aharietiam... It pointed you toward this conclusion. Terrible though it is. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: you trust that the SF that we see in the Prologue is the one that we see throughout books 1-4...so Obviously that doesn't sway you. I do not just trust, I see similarities, the same behavior, the same actions. I see too many holes in the Stormfaker theory. For me it doesn't work. It's far more likely that those Stormfathers are the same, that can and sometimes did lie. Sometimes, not all the time. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Gavilar even confronts the SF we see about the lying, and there is no rebuttal. He doesn't even pretend that it isn't true, he just mocks Gavilar for knowing so little. By saying Gavilar wrongly assumes too much for what he doesn't know. Was the Stormfather always lying if it was mostly in Gavilar's mind? 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: This by itself, to me, is proof enough that, while Gavilar certainly had a very high opinion of himself That's the problem. That's why I don't believe in what Gavilar thinks the Stormfather told him. He's too prideful, too full of himself, too self-centered and manipulative. He manipulates everyone around him, including the Stormfather - it makes sense that this kind of person would wrongly assume when faced with unknown and extrapolate from slivers of information provided by the Stromfather. But the Stormfather did lie, omit and manipulate Gavilar too. They were both trying to play each other. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: You say lying and oaths are two separate things, but your word is your bond. Even Odium has to abide by that, but now the SF doesn't? How does that track? Honor is not just about bonds, that is very reductive, and doesn't reflect how making an oath based on lies makes that oath worthless. That's not true. Oaths are bigger than words for Shards. We have an example of this: Spoiler Nameless36 All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that. Brandon Sanderson So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What are his motivations here? If both are the stormfather then he is lying to someone. Why? What plans does he have that would require him to lie to G / D or both? I don't know but I can think of several. He might have lied to Gavilar to prevent the True Desolation from coming by making Gavilar into a Herald. He might lie to Dalinar to hide some bigger truth about why Honor allowed Odium to settle on Roshar, why he imprisoned him on Roshar, why the swap of gods happened during the First Desolation or some other stuff. Or he might simply lie to Dalinar to hide his mistakes and his role in all of this. That's why this idea is so intriguing for me because we don't know what the Stormfather's true intentions are. I don't believe he is malicious, but he certainly has or had some other goal in mind. 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What i mean by lying to one or both: he tells dalinar that manifestinng as anything other than the cloud that he is, is very painful. We see this is true when Dalinar pulls part of him to him to open the oathgate, and SF screams in pain. Was that screaming in pain a lie? He shows up to Gavilar in the shape of a man, and never does anything even close to that, even in D's visions. Wrong. First of all you're confusing a physical manifestation with more or less Spiritual "vision," let's call it that for a lack of better words. To open an Oathgate you need a physical Shard in your hand, that pulling him fully into the Physical Realm IS painful for the Stormfather. To appear as a Shimmering in the air you don't need that - all spren appear in their form without being fully pulled into the PR. Secondly the Stormfather DID appear in the same form for Dalinar as well, for example in RoW ch 107: Quote The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar —a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar, yet extending into infinity. 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Gavilar was prideful and ignorant, but he wasn't stupid. I don't think he would make wild assumptions (the heralds are all dead) unless the SF had told him something to make him believe that. Disagree. 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Do you think SA5 SF was trying to get Gavilar, possibly the worst candidate, to become a herald to actually save Roshar? He would know better than anyone that is not a good or even semi permanent solution. Why and how would he know that before being with Gavilar? He can't read minds, he doesn't know people, he can only see their glimpses during each Highstorm. He admitted later that he had made a mistake by choosing Gavilar. Quote You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel...you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find. [...] I will never trust your family again. I made that mistake once. I will not do so again. 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If its the same SF, he is being manipulative. Wether he is lying through his teeth or not is certainly up for debate, but what is the point of this manipulation? So far with Dalinar, he has been actively working with Dalinars plans to defeat Odium. Why, if he has some other plan, is he basically just following Dalinar around? I don't believe or suggest that the Stormfather is constantly lying to Dalinar. I think he is mostly truthful with him, but there might be a few moments when he has lied - one was during OB ch 38, when he told Dalinar that no other Herald has died since Aharietiam and that Taln has broken, which we now know was a lie. Quote HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION, BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID. We already can find an example of the Stormfather lying to Dalinar. Why did he lie about this? I think it was just to hide his failure with whatever he planned to do with Gavilar. He wasn't ready for this, he miscalculated and blamed himself, trying to hide this. Which is something he already tried to do by sending a Highstorm at the end of WoR, WoR ch 86: Quote “My father,” Syl said, voice growing solemn. “He brought the storm, rushing its pace. He’s . . . broken, Kaladin. He doesn’t think any of this should be happening. He wants to end it all, wash everyone away, and try to hide from the future.” 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Obligatory meme: Spoiler Edited February 27 by alder24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) 51 minutes ago, alder24 said: By saying Gavilar wrongly assumes too much for what he doesn't know. Was the Stormfather always lying if it was mostly in Gavilar's mind? Yes. 100% Everything was based on the outright lie that the other 9 have died and passed on to Damnation. Disregarding everything else, even though we agree that Gavilar had way too high of an opinion of himself and how smart he was, I really do not see him misconstruing a lack of correction or letting Gavilar assume they are dead as SF outright telling him they are, and Gavilar says, to SF, that he said that. There was no correction, no witty "I never said that, you did" nothing like that. 51 minutes ago, alder24 said: I disagree. Honor is about bonds not truth or lies. Honorspren Sekeir acted really "unhonorable." imprisoning Kelek and Shallan, lying and misleading about Kelek's state, taking up Kelek's place, using Maya in such a heartless way - surprisingly it's not against Honorspren nature, they were even thinking of switching side to Odium. This is STILL of Honor, because Honor is not about truth or lies, he's about bonds and oaths. I think we are just going to completely disagree here. Even if Honor is only about bonds, a statement I strongly contest, a bond based on lies is not binding. This sort of comes down to morality and definitions and what people think Honor means, and is even more salient in the context of the Cosmere. Edited February 27 by listerfeend 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 (edited) 16 hours ago, listerfeend said: Yes. 100% Everything was based on the outright lie that the other 9 have died and passed on to Damnation. We don't know that. My point is that Gavilar is not a reliable narrator. We don't know if the Stormfather told him those things, or if he just assumed that himself. I don't trust Gavilar, I don't trust him to reliably tell me what the Stormfather told him off pages. 16 hours ago, listerfeend said: and Gavilar says, to SF, that he said that. There was no correction, no witty "I never said that, you did" nothing like that. The Stormfather responded: "you assume too much for what you don't know" - for me it looks like this was the correction you are looking for. This clearly suggests that it was just Gavilar who assumed Heralds are on Braize, not that the Stormfather directly told him this. 16 hours ago, listerfeend said: I think we are just going to completely disagree here. Even if Honor is only about bonds, a statement I strongly contest, a bond based on lies is not binding. This sort of comes down to morality and definitions and what people think Honor means, and is even more salient in the context of the Cosmere. It depends on the circumstances of swearing an Oath. If both of them have the same Intent and understanding of the bond, it is binding and I do believe that the Stormfather was honest when bonding with Dalinar. But even Oaths can be misinterpreted, RoW ch 116: Quote “Wit says the enemy can’t violate our agreement, and isn’t likely to try to misinterpret it—not intentionally" Honor isn't an idea set in metal - every person can have a different interpretation of Honor. We don't know what Tavavast's interpretation of Honor was, but apparently it was loose enough for him to imprison Odium on Roshar, despite allowing him to settle in the system. It was also loose enough to betray his own people - Dawnsingers - and switch to humans for unknown reasons. If Tanavast intended to imprison Odium when he allowed him to settle on Roshar, I see no reason why the Stormfather can do something similar with Dalinar (which I don't believe happened at all). Spoiler Necarion Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations? Brandon Sanderson Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them. You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati. Necarion So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast? Brandon Sanderson Yes he would. Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016) Edited February 28 by alder24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted February 28 Author Report Share Posted February 28 (edited) On 2/27/2024 at 8:19 AM, alder24 said: This doesn't work for me, you can achieve the same things with lying Stormfather. Moreover Gavilar wasn't really on Dalinar's mind after WoR, when he finally resolved his guilt for not being able to save his brother. Since then he appeared here and there, but there isn't much in terms of internal conflict or struggle. Dalinar right now is more focused on the future and on his position as a leader - how to undermine it in a better way than with the realization that he was just a pawn and his position is based on lies? For me Gavilar seems to be all the result of his own actions and ambitions. He might have been manipulated by Stormfather (real or fake), but he also manipulated him for his own goals and ambitions. Even if his behavior was the result of the Stormfather's manipulation, then the emotional impact would be far greater if it was the real Stormfather - now you have an entity that manipulated both of them for unknown reasons, leading one of them to his death. The stakes are just so much higher than with Ishar as the culprit. But again, Gavilar in my opinion was just a crem on his own. IMO, I disagree that saying that both brothers being deceived by the Real Stormfather is functionally the same as only Gavilar being deceived by a Stormfaker. This is because as i see it, Dalinar's last big lie to confront is the lie he tells himself about his brother not being as honourable as Dalinar has assumed. Multiple times Navani has tried to broach this subject, and Dalinar is unable to confront this issue. Dalinar blames himself for letting the great proto-bondmsith Gavilar die. Dalinar believes that the embodiment of honour had been guiding Gavilar. But what Dalinar needs to confront is that Gavilar was a two-faced monster. Adding in that the Stormfather is a two-faced monster in addition to Gavilar being a two faced monster really pulls us away from the Gavilar reveal and the emotional work Dalinar needs to do concerning Gavilar. Additionally, If Dalinar and Gavilar were both lied to and deceived in the same way, this gives Dalinar yet another reason to be an apologist about his brother. Dalinar will have to say to Navani "Gavilar was just like me; he was deceived just like me. Gavilar cant be blamed because the Stormfather tricked us too". We need a way to have Navani say "Dalinar, you are not just a 2nd son filling the shoes of your dead brother; Gavilar sucked. He was not honourable. YOU ARE HONOURABLE". Navini's ability to confront this is severely undercut if Dalinar is making the same mistakes as his brother and has been bonding a somewhat evil Stormfather. Instead, if Dalinar learns that Gavilar's vices attracted the attention of an entity that was not the actual Stormfather, then Dalinar and Navani can have a real and frank discussion about who Gavilar was and why Dalinar's drunkenness did not result in the death of a great and unifying man. Dalinar will learn that Gavilar had the opportunity to bond the Real Stormfather [who is nominally sending visions as per his oath to Honour], but Gavilar instead was pulled in by something as corrupted as the Stormfaker. And by learning this, Dalinar will see that he isn't just the 2nd son version of the brother he failed to protect. And while I totally agree Gavilar was Gavilar's worst enemy in regards to his corruption and eventual death, Dalinar needs a way to confront this and to realize that Dalinar is wrong to consider his brother a good king cut down in his prime. Knowing that Gavilar was drawn more to an opportunistic Stormfaker over the honourable Stormfather will let Dalinar confront his misconceptions about his brother, and will finally allow Dalinar to understand his own life, and to actually be present and be able to support Navani when it comes to the abuse she had been suffering through. Edited February 28 by teknopathetic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, teknopathetic said: IMO, I disagree that saying that both brothers being deceived by the Real Stormfather is functionally the same as only Gavilar being deceived by a Stormfaker. This is because as i see it, Dalinar's last big lie to confront is the lie he tells himself about his brother not being as honourable as Dalinar has assumed. Multiple times Navani has tried to broach this subject, and Dalinar is unable to confront this issue. Dalinar blames himself for letting the great proto-bondmsith Gavilar die. Dalinar believes that the embodiment of honour had been guiding Gavilar. But what Dalinar needs to confront is that Gavilar was a two-faced monster. Adding in that the Stormfather is a two-faced monster in addition to Gavilar being a two faced monster really pulls us away from the Gavilar reveal and the emotional work Dalinar needs to do concerning Gavilar. I disagree. That's not a big issue conflict for Dalinar at all, Sure, Dalinar doesn't know the truth about Gavilar, he certainly doesn't know that he was bonded with the Stormfather, but that's mainly because Navani has never tried to actually argue with him why Gavilar was so bad. I went through every 104 mentions of "Gavilar" and 55 mentions of "brother" in RoW and only 1 or 2 were made by Dalinar, not in the context of "how great, idealistic and honorable Gavilar was" or stuff like that. Dalinar doesn't struggle with this anymore, there is no internal conflict regarding Gavilar and he has already decided to disrespect Gavilar's name by courting and later marrying Navani. I don't think Dalinar will struggle to accept that Gavilar was a two-faced monster because Dalinar himself was a two-faced animal. I don't see this as being significant to Dalinar's character arc - it's absent from RoW, it's barely mentioned in OB (mainly in flashbacks), it doesn't contribute anything new and grand for Dalinar to overcome that has meaning on his current progression. It doesn't change much. That reveal won't bring much. But the reveal that the Stormfather is lying to him, hiding important facts from him or even manipulating Dalinar changes everything. Their relations would be questioned, every bit of knowledge gained from the Stormfather would be questioned, Dalinar's trust would be broken. How can he unite Roshar when the very entity he's bonded with that essentially gave him this mission to unite can't be trusted? This actually would raise issues very close to and even necessary for Bondsmith's progression. 3 hours ago, teknopathetic said: Additionally, If Dalinar and Gavilar were both lied to and deceived in the same way, this gives Dalinar yet another reason to be an apologist about his brother. Dalinar will have to say to Navani "Gavilar was just like me; he was deceived just like me. Gavilar cant be blamed because the Stormfather tricked us too". This problem still exists with or without the Stormfaker - Dalinar was lied to, used and manipulated by Odium for decades, just like Gavilar was by the Stormfaker. It changes nothing. 3 hours ago, teknopathetic said: We need a way to have Navani say "Dalinar, you are not just a 2nd son filling the shoes of your dead brother; Gavilar sucked. He was not honourable. YOU ARE HONOURABLE". Dalinar doesn't really struggle with the idea that he's only badly filling the shoes of his dead brother. He partially knows how dangerous Gavilar was, that he can't be trusted - he warned Venli about this in RoW ch 58. He isn't idealizing Gavilar to that extent. 3 hours ago, teknopathetic said: Instead, if Dalinar learns that Gavilar's vices attracted the attention of an entity that was not the actual Stormfather, then Dalinar and Navani can have a real and frank discussion about who Gavilar was and why Dalinar's drunkenness did not result in the death of a great and unifying man. Dalinar will learn that Gavilar had the opportunity to bond the Real Stormfather [who is nominally sending visions as per his oath to Honour], but Gavilar instead was pulled in by something as corrupted as the Stormfaker. And by learning this, Dalinar will see that he isn't just the 2nd son version of the brother he failed to protect. So you're saying Dalinar needs to confront the idea that Gavilar was a monster, but then you still give him an excuse to make - that Gavilar was just manipulated and wasn't so bad? Doesn't work for me. It's not "Gavilar was manipulated" Dalinar needs to confront, it's "Gavilar was a crem" that matters. The same excuse exists with or without the Stormfaker. 3 hours ago, teknopathetic said: And while I totally agree Gavilar was Gavilar's worst enemy in regards to his corruption and eventual death, Dalinar needs a way to confront this and to realize that Dalinar is wrong to consider his brother a good king cut down in his prime. Knowing that Gavilar was drawn more to an opportunistic Stormfaker over the honourable Stormfather will let Dalinar confront his misconceptions about his brother, and will finally allow Dalinar to understand his own life, and to actually be present and be able to support Navani when it comes to the abuse she had been suffering through. This isn't needed at all. Knowing that Gavilar was plotting and scheming the return of Voidbringers behind everyone's back, that he abused and disrespected Navani constantly, that he disregarded his kids and Dalinar, lastly that he was manipulating everyone around him is enough for Dalinar to accept that Gavilar was a crem. Just the knowledge of how he treated Navani is enough to make that judgment. Dalinar himself is the example that even if you are manipulated, you still have free will to make your own choice and do what’s right and honorable - Gavilar didn’t do that at all. However Dalinar knows that Gavilar wasn't perfect, they all together schemed and conquered Alethkar with fire and threats. They bullied nobles to join their cause long before Stormfather even appeared in their lives. Overall while the Stormfaker brings not much to the story. In no meaningful way it adds to an existing conflict, internal struggles of Dalinar and his character development. It's just a twist for the sake of having a twist. A lying Stormfather actually adds a lot in every way. It focuses on Dalinar's relation with the Stormfather, turning its dynamic upside down, where Gavilar is just a background, not a major part of it. It contributes to Dalinar's character arc as a Bondsmith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Crossen Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 Does anyone think that maybe when Honor "died" and gave part of his power to the Stormfather that Honor really sort of mind-merged with the Stormfather instead, maybe accidentally? (Maybe like a Voldemort/Professor Quirrell situation or the famous LTT example from WoT). The Stormfather just wants to be a storm and not worry about performing his other duties while the Honor side of him is forcing him to do things like Bond and show Dalinar the visions. This back and forth between the two personalities is what is shown in this chapter. I went back and read the Dalinar visiting the Nightwatcher chapter in OB and noticed that when the Nightwatcher spoke it was in italics, but when Cultivation spoke it was all caps. Maybe this is the hint between who is talking between the Stormfather/Honor. Also reading that chapter again made me think of if maybe Honor/Stormfather visited the Nightwatch/Cultivation and got a boon and curse. Through this maybe Cultivation helped to "kill" Honor with Odium (Odium thinks that he died: "We killed you!"), but his merging with the Stormfather allows him to grow out of his obsession with honor and oaths. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 7 hours ago, Crossen said: Does anyone think that maybe when Honor "died" and gave part of his power to the Stormfather that Honor really sort of mind-merged with the Stormfather instead, maybe accidentally? (Maybe like a Voldemort/Professor Quirrell situation or the famous LTT example from WoT). The Stormfather just wants to be a storm and not worry about performing his other duties while the Honor side of him is forcing him to do things like Bond and show Dalinar the visions. Well, the Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Honor, which means more or less that - Honor's mind/afterimage merged with the Stormfather after his death. Heralds and Fused are Cognitive Shadows too. The Stormfather seems to not have all memories of Honor, but he might have some of them. Spoiler Questioner Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time... Brandon Sanderson Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) Spoiler Questioner I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect? Brandon Sanderson That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture... And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) Spoiler ChocolateRob (paraphrased) What does the Stormfather think of Cultivation? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He thinks the same as Honor thinks. Footnote: Brandon did give ChocolateRob a RAFO card along with his answer. Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014) 7 hours ago, Crossen said: This back and forth between the two personalities is what is shown in this chapter. I went back and read the Dalinar visiting the Nightwatcher chapter in OB and noticed that when the Nightwatcher spoke it was in italics, but when Cultivation spoke it was all caps. Maybe this is the hint between who is talking between the Stormfather/Honor. Italics and small caps gives you no indication of who is speaking in the prologue, because there are only two sentences spoken in caps, at the very end (bolded): Quote “What are you?” Gavilar whispered, hoarse. The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated. Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it. “What?” Gavilar demanded, stepping forward. “What is coming?” Your legacy. The door slammed open. Sadeas, puffing, face red from exertion. “Assassin,” he said. “Coming this way, killing guards. We need your armor.” It doesn't make sense for the entire conversation to be spoken by one entity, and the goodbye part be the other, after which the first one spoke a few more words when Gavilar was dying. 8 hours ago, Crossen said: Also reading that chapter again made me think of if maybe Honor/Stormfather visited the Nightwatch/Cultivation and got a boon and curse. No. Stormfather's opinion of the Nightwatcher is not good. And I doubt they would be able to give boon and curse to entities that invested - investiture resist investiture, the Stormfather is more invested than the Nightwatcher. OB ch 43: Quote The Stormfather rumbled in frustration. That woman! This is a creation specifically meant to defy my will! “Woman?” Dalinar asked, shaking his head. That child is tainted by the Nightwatcher. “Technically, so am I.” This is different. This is unnatural. She goes too far. The Stormfather rumbled his discontent, refusing to speak to Dalinar further. He seemed genuinely upset Spoiler Questioner Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather? Brandon Sanderson ...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is. [...] JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) 8 hours ago, Crossen said: Through this maybe Cultivation helped to "kill" Honor with Odium (Odium thinks that he died: "We killed you!") Honor is dead, that's clear. Cultivation is very unlikely to help Odium hill Honor. Firstly, she was romantically involved with Tanavast, secondly she was fighting against Odium this whole time. Spoiler Questioner Is Honor still alive? Brandon Sanderson Honor? Honor's dead. Questioner What about Tanavast? Brandon Sanderson So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Spoiler StormAtlas (paraphrased) Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013) Spoiler Seonid If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium? Brandon Sanderson She did. Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonpaintbrush Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 From Gavilar's POV, its clear that he thinks whatever being he has been talking to is the Stormfather--but he remarks on the changeability of that being himself, something that a Spren, by definition, is not. A Spren--as a piece of Living Investiture with particularized Intent--is anything BUT readily changeable, perhaps unless their particularized Intent is changeability or some offshoot of that idea. The point that I'm making here is that points of view in the Stormlight Archive are necessarily flawed and colored by the perspective of the person "driving" that chapter. We see characters be incorrect in their assumptions and the things they hold as "truth" in the Stormlight Archive literally all the time--see literally any Shallan POV for a character who actively deceives themselves and provides false information to the reader. It is so curious a thing, to me, for any reader to accept as fundamental truth anything that Gavilar Kholin presents as such from his extremely limited perspective. All we can say for certain, absolute certain, is that there was a voice that spoke to Gavilar and showed him visions, and that Gavilar referred to that being as the Stormfather. Whether or not that being, at all times, was in actuality the Stormfather is in direct question--by the intent of the author himself--because all the behavior we see in this chapter cuts against literally all other information we have about the Stormfather as an Entity from multiple perspectives throughout four books. If one is not juxtaposing the information obtained in one character's POV chapter against all other sources of information they've received, then, they aren't searching for the "secrets" or the "truths", they're merely accepting biased assertions of fact. If one is willing to discard four books worth of other character's insights and perspectives regarding the Stormfather simply because one POV chapter says all that all other data points must be discounted, they are merely giving deference to novelty. Without balancing new information against ALL the old, and without balancing the quality, veracity, and sources of the new information against that of the old, one isn't interested in finding the truth of the matter--one is just cremposting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) On 2/24/2024 at 6:15 AM, alder24 said: in this case the name Surgebinding simply means invested art, it doesn't mean they are similar in the way one obtains them, or in the way they work. While true generally, the Ashynite powers did work off the same principles: Spoiler Shardbound Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using. Brandon Sanderson Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles. On 2/24/2024 at 6:15 AM, alder24 said: But that's assuming Ashynite powers were disease-based before its destruction (which I think is reasonable). We also know that the magic system was not always disease-based, though we don't know when the change happened or how: Spoiler beer_in_an_esky 1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that? 2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based? 3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world? Brandon Sanderson 1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet. 2) No. 3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere. That said, the fact he retrieved his Honorblade in the first place is odd to me unless he lost whatever powers he used to have. On 2/25/2024 at 2:44 PM, Leonpaintbrush said: If Honor really wanted the surges to be bound, the surges would have been fully contained from the time of the Oathpact They were, or at least Bondsmithing was (RoW 66): Spoiler The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn. On 2/26/2024 at 10:25 AM, alder24 said: Maybe he sacrificed himself to imprison Odium in the system forever? Or maybe Odium was simply stronger, but Honor did the best he could? The latter seems to be the case: Spoiler Questioner So, I was actually wondering whether Tanavast constructed the confrontation with Rayse in such a way that *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson That nailed his foot to the floor? Questioner He's stuck on Braize - at least for now. Brandon Sanderson Ah, yes. That was, in effect, that was an intentional - Questioner It was deliberate? Okay. Brandon Sanderson It was deliberate. Yup. Questioner *Inaudible, possibly 'Rayse'* started to win? Brandon Sanderson Um, well... Questioner I'll keep it secret until it shows up on Facebook. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it... so, Odium came at him, and he gave - not as good as he got - but he made it cost. Questioner Did he sacrifice himself, or is Odium better at that sort of thing? Brandon Sanderson I wouldn't say that he sacrificed himself, I'd say he went out swinging. Questioner Is Odium just better at that sort of thing? Brandon Sanderson I would say, yes. On 2/27/2024 at 10:45 AM, listerfeend said: How can the entity that is literally the source of Honorspren, also the biggest representation of the Shard of Honor that we have left at this point, be able to lie so thoroughly to Gavilar? Like the honorspren locking Kalak away under a chullcrem excuse so they can seize control of a court trial and force the outcome they want? Problem is, "honor" is self-defined. In the Stormfather's case, it seems to be centered around explicit oaths (OB 38): Spoiler Why not heal yourself as you did in the vision with Fen? the Stormfather asked. You have Stormlight. "Cheating," Dalinar said with a grunt. Cheating? the Stormfather said. Why in Damnation would that be cheating? You made no oath. Which is also backed up by OB 4 (note that he specifically includes oaths made in ignorance as being just as worthy as oaths made in full knowledge): Spoiler "I'm surprised," Dalinar whispered to the spren, "you agreed to this so willingly. Grateful, but still surprised." I respect all oaths, the Stormfather responded. "What about foolish oaths? Made in haste, or in ignorance?" There are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice. Spoiler OATHS, the Stormfather rumbled, ARE THE SOUL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. IF YOU ARE TO SURVIVE THE COMING TEMPEST, OATHS MUST GUIDE YOU . He may very well see no issue with lying—or at least with allowing Gavilar to believe his own false extrapolations, which is what prologue!Stormfather implies happened with Gavilar: Spoiler “You lied,” Gavilar said. “You lied?” Oh, Gavilar. There is so much you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities. In fact, we see him try to pull misleading non-answers off with Dalinar too, though he gives in when pushed (OB 64): Spoiler Dalinar lowered the Honorblade, looking eastward toward the Origin. Even through the stone walls, he knew that was where to find the Stormfather. "Do you know where they are?" I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms. "Do you know where they are?" Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man. He implies the answer to the question is no, but when Dalinar calls him on it he concedes he does (and I'm not sure how true his answer really is since Jezrien has been in the same spot for at least eight years and Nale has not been terribly subtle for someone with the Stormfather's knowledge and vision, but maybe he's just really inattentive, who knows). Might Gavilar have asked similar questions but been too confident in his interpretations to catch the deception? On 2/27/2024 at 12:22 PM, alder24 said: The weirdest thing was all this talk about making Gavilar into a Herald, which may or may not be true - this can be a lie. I think this one is probably a lie because of his hesitation on this line: Spoiler That is true. I do not speak in human ways. But still, once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you? On 2/29/2024 at 7:41 AM, alder24 said: the Stormfather is more invested than the Nightwatcher. That WoB says they're the same level, not above. Though I don't see a ton of reason to believe he did visit her regardless; I'd be curious to hear a more detailed argument there. 2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said: Without balancing new information against ALL the old, and without balancing the quality, veracity, and sources of the new information against that of the old, one isn't interested in finding the truth of the matter--one is just cremposting. Assuming that anyone who disagrees with you simply isn't taking theorizing seriously is rarely helpful. If someone were to turn this around and say Stormfaker theorists are just refusing to consider he could be different than we think, well, you would probably disagree yeah? In the same vein, maybe try giving the benefit of the doubt and considering that maybe people who think it's the real Stormfather do so because they have looked into it and feel other evidence outweighs the character evidence rather than because they just aren't willing to think about it. Edited March 2 by LewsTherinTelescope auto emojification is of Odium 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbound Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using. Brandon Sanderson Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.
beer_in_an_esky 1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that? 2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based? 3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world? Brandon Sanderson 1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet. 2) No. 3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere.
Questioner So, I was actually wondering whether Tanavast constructed the confrontation with Rayse in such a way that *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson That nailed his foot to the floor? Questioner He's stuck on Braize - at least for now. Brandon Sanderson Ah, yes. That was, in effect, that was an intentional - Questioner It was deliberate? Okay. Brandon Sanderson It was deliberate. Yup. Questioner *Inaudible, possibly 'Rayse'* started to win? Brandon Sanderson Um, well... Questioner I'll keep it secret until it shows up on Facebook. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it... so, Odium came at him, and he gave - not as good as he got - but he made it cost. Questioner Did he sacrifice himself, or is Odium better at that sort of thing? Brandon Sanderson I wouldn't say that he sacrificed himself, I'd say he went out swinging. Questioner Is Odium just better at that sort of thing? Brandon Sanderson I would say, yes.
alder24 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 12 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said: From Gavilar's POV, its clear that he thinks whatever being he has been talking to is the Stormfather--but he remarks on the changeability of that being himself, something that a Spren, by definition, is not. A Spren--as a piece of Living Investiture with particularized Intent--is anything BUT readily changeable, perhaps unless their particularized Intent is changeability or some offshoot of that idea. Highly disagree. Spren ARE changeable. We see this all the time with spren like Syl, Pattern or Wyndle. They grow. But even unbounded spren are still changeable. Examples? The Stromfather - he is changing his mind all the time. He sent visions to Dalinar, but when he failed to stop Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm, he sent his Highstorm to kill them all and hide his own failure. He was trying to stop Syl from returning to Kal, but he accepted his Words letting her go. He refused to bond with Dalinar, but a second later accepted his words. Or in OB he refused Kaladin's request to save people from his Highstorm, but later he felt apologetic and guided Kaladin back to Urithiru. He didn't want to tell Dalinar who Ishar is, he hid from Dalinar that he can speak other languages revealing this only when he was pressed by Dalinar. In RoW he kept telling Dalinar not to push him, but when Dalinar was riding the storm and pushed against the storm, the Stormfather was curious, not angry. In the end he even showed mercy to Eshonai, admitting he should have done more to help her. Even some Honorspren believe that the Stormfather has changed lately. And there are also many other examples of Stormfather changing his mind almost immediately when pressed by Dalinar. It's there, in WoK, WoR, OB and RoW. All there, hidden in plain sight. Spoiler WoR ch 86: Quote “A highstorm,” Kaladin said, shooting up through the sky after Szeth. “The red storm is from the Parshendi, but why is there a highstorm coming? This isn’t the time for one.” “My father,” Syl said, voice growing solemn. “He brought the storm, rushing its pace. He’s . . . broken, Kaladin. He doesn’t think any of this should be happening. He wants to end it all, wash everyone away, and try to hide from the future.” WoR ch 89: Quote “Life before death!” Dalinar shouted. “Strength before weakness! Journey before destination!” I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME! [...] “Fortunately,” Dalinar said, “I know the second oath I am to make. I don’t need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.” The thunder silenced. Dalinar stood alone, staring at the sky, waiting. VERY WELL, the Stormfather finally said. THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED. OB ch 31: Quote “Turn yourself aside!” Kaladin shouted into the churning winds. “There are people below! Stormfather. You must listen to me!” [...] IT IS NOT SOMETHING I CAN DO, SON OF TANAVAST. IF THE WIND STOPS BLOWING, IT IS NOT A WIND. IT IS NOTHING. [...] They flew for a good hour like that before a current in the winds nudged him toward the south. “Go that way,” Syl said, a ribbon of light. “Why?” “Just listen to the piece of nature incarnate, okay? I think Father wants to apologize, in his own way.” OB ch 38: Quote “Stormfather?” Dalinar said, addressing the spren. “This is what I told Jasnah it was, isn’t it? Aharietiam. The Last Desolation.” That is what it was called. “Include Navani in your responses,” Dalinar requested. AGAIN, YOU MAKE DEMANDS OF ME. YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS. The voice rumbled in the open air, and Navani jumped. OB ch 65: Quote “Would you help me understand?” he whispered to the Stormfather. What makes you think I can? “Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered. “I’ve spoken new languages in the visions. You can make me speak Azish.” The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you. “How do I use it?” Try touching one of them. With Spiritual Adhesion, you can make a Connection OB ch 86: Quote Evi’s cries, and the tears of murdered children, spoke the truth. Oh … oh, Almighty above. How could he live with this pain? So fresh, restored anew? But why pray? There was no Almighty watching. If there had been—and if he’d had a shred of justice to him—Honor would have long ago purged this world of the fraud that was Dalinar Kholin. And I had the gall to condemn Amaram for killing one squad of men to gain a Shardblade. Dalinar had burned an entire city for less. Thousands upon thousands of people. “Why did you bond me?” Dalinar whispered to the Stormfather. “Shouldn’t you have picked a man who was just?” Just? Justice is what you brought to those people. “That was not justice. That was a massacre.” The Stormfather rumbled. I have burned and broken cities myself. I can see … yes, I see a difference now. I see pain now. I did not see it before the bond. OB ch 113: Quote He can see the future, though only cloudily. Regardless, I … understand now as I never did before. The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity. RoW ch 71: Quote I am a storm. I cannot— You are not merely a storm! Dalinar bellowed, his voice changing to rumbles of thunder. You are capable of choice! You hide from that, and in so doing, you are a COWARD! The Stormfather did not respond. Dalinar felt him there, subdued—like a petulant child scolded for their foolishness. Good. Both Dalinar and the Stormfather were different from what they once had been. They had to be better. The world demanded that they be better. RoW ch 87: Quote “You know how erratic the Stormfather has been lately,” said an elderly female honorspren at Kelek’s side. “His wisdom is no longer something to trust.” RoW ch 117: Quote I DID NOTHING. I WATCHED YOU FALL AND DID NOT STOP IT. The rain cannot stop the bloodshed, she said, fading. But it washes the world afterward anyway. Thank you. I COULD HAVE DONE MORE, the Rider replied. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE. It … is enough.… NO, he said. I CAN GIVE YOU ONE FINAL GIFT Another example of a changeable Spren is Notum - going from Syl's imprisonment, through threatening Kaladin with death, to letting them go and ending up standing up for his honor during Adolin's trial. Phendorana - she argued with Syl against bonding, yet when Syl succeeded and the True Desolation started, she was one of the first to guide other Honorspren to the Bridge Four and one of the first to bond with another person - Teft. She changed. OB ch 37: Quote “Kind of maybe sort of halfway,” she said, cocking her head. “I can barely remember a voice … her voice, Phendorana, reprimanding me. I got in so much trouble for searching out Kaladin. Yet here they are! They won’t speak to me. I think they assume that if they do, they’d have to admit to me they were wrong.” She leaned forward, grinning. “And they absolutely hate being wrong.” Other Honorspren - there is a division between them, as seen in RoW. Many are angrily against bonding with humans, others are willing to bond, some even want to switch sides and join Odium. Honorspren in general are highly changeable. The most obvious example is the Sibling - they swore they wouldn't bond with people again, they refused to bond with Navani, deeming her unworthy, they refused to trust people - and in the end yet they accepted Navani's Words. RoW ch 113: Quote I swore I would never do this again, the Sibling said in her mind. I swore I was done with humans. “Then it’s good that spren, like humans, can change their minds,” Navani said. And lastly the Nightwatcher. She was made by Cultivation specifically to grow and develop on her own. To change. Spren are sentient, they have free will - they can change, they can choose. It's not against their nature, it's part of their nature. Some are just refusing to accept it, but all spren can change. 13 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said: The point that I'm making here is that points of view in the Stormlight Archive are necessarily flawed and colored by the perspective of the person "driving" that chapter. We see characters be incorrect in their assumptions and the things they hold as "truth" in the Stormlight Archive literally all the time--see literally any Shallan POV for a character who actively deceives themselves and provides false information to the reader. I fully agree, that's why I don't believe what Gavilar claims about what the Stormfather had said to him off pages. Gavilar is too proud, too self-centered, too flawed and too quick to make assumptions to be trusted. 13 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said: It is so curious a thing, to me, for any reader to accept as fundamental truth anything that Gavilar Kholin presents as such from his extremely limited perspective. All we can say for certain, absolute certain, is that there was a voice that spoke to Gavilar and showed him visions, and that Gavilar referred to that being as the Stormfather. Whether or not that being, at all times, was in actuality the Stormfather is in direct question--by the intent of the author himself--because all the behavior we see in this chapter cuts against literally all other information we have about the Stormfather as an Entity from multiple perspectives throughout four books. If one is not juxtaposing the information obtained in one character's POV chapter against all other sources of information they've received, then, they aren't searching for the "secrets" or the "truths", they're merely accepting biased assertions of fact. If one is willing to discard four books worth of other character's insights and perspectives regarding the Stormfather simply because one POV chapter says all that all other data points must be discounted, they are merely giving deference to novelty. Without balancing new information against ALL the old, and without balancing the quality, veracity, and sources of the new information against that of the old, one isn't interested in finding the truth of the matter--one is just cremposting. Nobody tries to argue that Gavilar's Stormfather isn't weird - we all see that. However in my opinion the evidence for that entity being the Stormfather are far more convincing than the evidence pointing towards Ishar or some other less likely Stormfaker. The Stormfather in all previous books has already proven himself to be mentally broken and unstable, able to change his mind at a moment's notice, willing to hide certain information from Dalinar unless pressed to reveal them. Being angry when someone demands something from him, yet sometimes still doing what he was asked for. This is exactly how Gavilar's Stormfather behaves - in the very same way. The Stormfather showed that he can be merciless and even malicious - willing to kill Kaladin in WoK&WoR, lying to him about Syl in WoR (Kaladin "killed" her. but the Stormfather kept her away from him - she wasn't fully dead because Kaladin didn't fully break his Oaths like Shallan did - this was a lie), sending his Highstorm to kill everyone during the Battle of Narrak. Not to mention all those times he killed people in Highstorms - where was his honor at those times? The Stormfather is not a pure and good entity with clean hands, he calls himself a storm and storms are treacherous, dangerous, changeable and unpredictable - just like Gavialr's Stormfather. Moreover we were shown that the visions Gavilar was seeing are the same as Daliars saw - this means it has to be the Stormfather showing them to him. This WoB confirms that: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3316 The entire conversation between Gavilar and the Stormfather is consistent. By that I mean that I see no weird sentences where a Stormfaker could be speaking. This means that the entirety of conversation has to be spoken by one entity only - and everything is pointing to the real Stormfather. He could take Gavilar out of visions, he saw potential in Dalinar, he responded in the same way to Gavilar's demand as to Dalinar's demand in OB ch 38, he felt Herald's death and many others. I see no words being spoken that were really standing out or were inconsistent with previously ongoing conversation. There are 3 main problems, which convinced me that Ishar can't be the Stormfaker (and he was the best candidate) thus it has to be the real Stormfather who can lie: Ishar should be insane, just like every other Herald. Ishar was shown to be insane the moment he first appeared in OB (the letter he sent to Dalinar), but even decades earlier, he advocated for killing all new Radiants, which doesn't make much sense considering Radiants existed for 2500 years post Aharietiam and they weren't any problem back then. The entity speaking to Gavilar is far too stable to be Ishar. Ishar CAN'T feel another Herald being killed and returning to Braize - this was shown to us in WoK Prelude. There is no question about this, this is still a dealbreaker for me. Ishar has no Honorblade during Gavilar's assassination (he reclaimed it after OB) and is highly unlikely to still have his Ashynite powers. It's a disservice to say that one has to discard all previous books to argue for the Stormfather, that one isn't searching for the truth and is just cremposting. The entire point of theorycrafting is to have a discussion, to argue for and against a theory. I believe we all are mature enough to agree to disagree and just have fun talking to each other about interesting ideas. We all exchange ideas and discuss our point of view in good faith. We both are using all previous SA books to show that it is the Stormfather/Stormfaker - I'm not discarding SA1-4 in my believes, my beliefs are based on those books, because there are multiple instances where the Stormfather was shown to be not that good of a guy, someone more similar to Gavilar's Stormfather than to some holy entity with no flaws. That's why I think it's the real Stormfather who was talking to Gavilar, he is not that different from the Stormfather known to us from previous books when you look deeper into it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonpaintbrush Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 Quote Assuming that anyone who disagrees with you simply isn't taking theorizing seriously is rarely helpful. If someone were to turn this around and say Stormfaker theorists are just refusing to consider he could be different than we think, well, you would probably disagree yeah? In the same vein, maybe try giving the benefit of the doubt and considering that maybe people who think it's the real Stormfather do so because they have looked into it and feel other evidence outweighs the character evidence rather than because they just aren't willing to think about it. But I don't assume that nor did I assume that. My point was that any reasonable discussion of this particular theory has to incorporate all sources of information. Further, the point was that not all sources of information are equal or should be treated as such. I do not believe that all sources of information are equal. I do not believe that someone's "belief" of an uninformed opinion is equal to an informed one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted March 3 Author Report Share Posted March 3 (edited) Assuming that Ishar is not the Stormfaker (which he may not be; we just had him as a good guess) Could Ishar be the the newest target of the Stormfaker's manipulations? We see the Stormfaker abandon Gavilar during the SP5 project, and then fairly nearly in time Ishar is saying that Ishar is now a God King and needs to refound the Knights Radiant. Something must have prompted Ishar to suddently go God king; i always assume this was because he had learned about Chana's death, but maybe the Stormfake/father started manipulating Ishar instead once Gavilar fell through and once the Oathpact was in danger of breaking (re:chana) Could the Stormfaker be with Ishar now and causing him to do research on Spren and all the other things we see? And could Ishar be absolutely enraged by seeing Dalinar bonded to the Stormfather because Ishar was told that he had been working with the Stormfather this whole time? If there is no Stomfaker, then would this mean that the Stormfather was talking to both Ishar and Dalinar at basically the same time? Edited March 3 by teknopathetic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Crossen Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 I read the chapter again. Did anyone notice that the Stormfather only appears as a shimmering face when Gavilar is in his chambers? Gavilar starts out in Navani's study, but after the break after talking to her he moves to his own chambers. Curiously, while he is in his chambers he talks about one of the new heating fabrials that Rushur Kris delivered to him. Could this be what is manifesting and faking the Stormfather face and voice to Gavilar? it also talks about how the face looks like heat: Quote Like the wavering in the air made by great heat on the stones. The shimmering face also says things that are way out of line for the Stormfather: Quote “You’ve never challenged what I’m doing,” Gavilar said. “I would have thought that returning the Voidbringers would be opposed to your very nature.” Opposition, sometimes, is needed, the Stormfather said. You will need someone to fight, should you take the position I am offering you. “Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.” The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them. “What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?” So close. And so far. Also interesting is that this fabrial is focused on in the RoW prologue also: Quote Storms bright and brash … that was Rushur Kris, the artist and master artifabrian. When had he arrived? Who had invited him? He was holding a small box with a flower painted on it. Could that be … one of his new fabrials? Navani felt drawn toward the group, all other thoughts fleeing her mind. How had he made the heating fabrial, making the temperature vary? She’d seen drawings, but to talk to the master artist himself … Aesudan saw Navani and smiled brightly. The joy seemed genuine, which was unusual—at least when directed at Navani. She tried not to take Aesudan’s general sourness toward her as a personal affront; it was the prerogative of every woman to feel threatened by her mother-in-law. Particularly when the girl was so obviously lacking in talents. Navani smiled at her in turn, trying to enter the conversation and get a better look at that box. Aesudan, however, took Navani by the arm. “Mother! I had completely forgotten about our appointment. I’m so fickle sometimes. Terribly sorry, Ardent Kris, but I must make a hasty exit.” Could the flower be the Ghostblood's symbol? It also looks like Aesudan is in on it and whisks Navani away before she can get a close look at the box. The fabrial is also brought up in the OB prologue. Thoughts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 6 hours ago, teknopathetic said: Assuming that Ishar is not the Stormfaker (which he may not be; we just had him as a good guess) Could Ishar be the the newest target of the Stormfaker's manipulations? We see the Stormfaker abandon Gavilar during the SP5 project, and then fairly nearly in time Ishar is saying that Ishar is now a God King and needs to refound the Knights Radiant. Something must have prompted Ishar to suddently go God king; i always assume this was because he had learned about Chana's death, but maybe the Stormfake/father started manipulating Ishar instead once Gavilar fell through and once the Oathpact was in danger of breaking (re:chana) Could the Stormfaker be with Ishar now and causing him to do research on Spren and all the other things we see? And could Ishar be absolutely enraged by seeing Dalinar bonded to the Stormfather because Ishar was told that he had been working with the Stormfather this whole time? If there is no Stomfaker, then would this mean that the Stormfather was talking to both Ishar and Dalinar at basically the same time? I doubt this. True, the timeline of Ishar becoming Tezim is suspicious, but the way Ishar reacted to the Stormfather's bond with Dalinar indicates that he had no interactions with him (or someone pretending to be him). Ishar was surprised that the Stormfather is bonded, but his conclusion was "he's corrupted, I need to steal that bond," which doesn't fit if he was interacting with someone imitating the Stormfather. The Stormfather talking himself to Ishar is out of the question - he would never allow any of his beloved Honorspren to be hurt like this. His reaction to Spren bodies found on site was too real and too emotional to be a lie. The Stormfather didn't know that, he was shocked that Spren can just die like humans. RoW ch 111: Quote Within the well of Light, Dalinar was nearly blinded—figures were mere lines, all shadows banished. Ishar, however, was distinct. Pale, eyes wide, whitened clothing rippling. He dropped his Blade and it turned to mist. Transfixed, he stepped toward Dalinar. “How?” Ishar asked. The word sounded clear, an incongruity against the soundless rush of power surrounding them. “You … you open Honor’s path. …” [...] “I see,” Ishar said softly. He met Dalinar’s eyes. “So. The enemy has corrupted the Stormfather too. I had hoped…” 4 hours ago, Crossen said: I read the chapter again. Did anyone notice that the Stormfather only appears as a shimmering face when Gavilar is in his chambers? Gavilar starts out in Navani's study, but after the break after talking to her he moves to his own chambers. It's not just in his chambers, he appeared as shimmering at the very end, outside the palace, when Gavilar was dying. Quote This was it. Behind the assassin, a halo, a corona, of shimmering light. The Stormfather. 4 hours ago, Crossen said: Curiously, while he is in his chambers he talks about one of the new heating fabrials that Rushur Kris delivered to him. Could this be what is manifesting and faking the Stormfather face and voice to Gavilar? it also talks about how the face looks like heat: He didn't talk about the fabrial, he just thought about it, crediting Navani for the idea that was useful in his study - and I think that was the goal of this, to show how Gavilar was able to get Voidlight and anti-Voidlight. Those thoughts appeared after the Stormfather appeared. 4 hours ago, Crossen said: The shimmering face also says things that are way out of line for the Stormfather: The opposition part is weird, but the "so close and so far" is easily explainable - it was the first time Gavilar spoke words with Intent. All other attempts were just wild guesses with no Intent behind them. The Stormfather said it himself just a moment later: Quote It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong. 4 hours ago, Crossen said: Also interesting is that this fabrial is focused on in the RoW prologue also: Quote Storms bright and brash … that was Rushur Kris, the artist and master artifabrian. When had he arrived? Who had invited him? He was holding a small box with a flower painted on it. Could that be … one of his new fabrials? Navani felt drawn toward the group, all other thoughts fleeing her mind. How had he made the heating fabrial, making the temperature vary? She’d seen drawings, but to talk to the master artist himself … Aesudan saw Navani and smiled brightly. The joy seemed genuine, which was unusual—at least when directed at Navani. She tried not to take Aesudan’s general sourness toward her as a personal affront; it was the prerogative of every woman to feel threatened by her mother-in-law. Particularly when the girl was so obviously lacking in talents. Navani smiled at her in turn, trying to enter the conversation and get a better look at that box. Aesudan, however, took Navani by the arm. “Mother! I had completely forgotten about our appointment. I’m so fickle sometimes. Terribly sorry, Ardent Kris, but I must make a hasty exit.” Could the flower be the Ghostblood's symbol? It also looks like Aesudan is in on it and whisks Navani away before she can get a close look at the box. The fabrial is also brought up in the OB prologue. Thoughts? Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that could be Mare's flower, he could be Ghostblood. And that would fit - Thaidakar just spoke with Gavilar, he said that they gave him very valuable information - he could be one of Ghostblood. However, Gavilar said that because of Navani's study he had found a way to use gemstones and then he started to take interest in Artifabirans. It's more likely that Axindweth was of Ghostbloods instead. Moreover Ghostbloods avoid using their symbol so publicly. I doubt then that it's the Ghostbloods symbol, but it's still quite possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Crossen Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 (edited) 8 hours ago, alder24 said: It's not just in his chambers, he appeared as shimmering at the very end, outside the palace, when Gavilar was dying. Note that this is on the balcony right outside his chambers. The fabrial could possibly extend that far. The last bit of dialog on the balcony with the Stormfather does make more sense if Thaidakar does the talking instead of the Stormfather. Quote Blood…blood of his fathers. “You can tell . . . Thaidakar,” Gavilar whispered, “That he’s too late. . . .” “I don’t know who that is,” the assassin said, the words barely intelligible. The man held his hand to the side. Summoning a Blade. This was it. Behind the assassin, a halo, a corona, of shimmering light. The Stormfather. It was not me, the Stormfather said in his head. I did not cause this. I do not know if that brings you peace or not in your last moments, Gavilar. But… “Then who . . . ?” Gavilar forced out. “Restares? Sadeas? I never thought. . . .” The only thing that does not quite fit is the shimmer face Stormfather knowing about the Herald dying. Maybe a Herald is controlling the face somehow? The most common theory has been Ishar, but I was more under the impression that Ishar does not want the Voidbringers to return while the shimmer face Stormfather seems to be in the bring back the Voidbringers camp. The Ghostbloods are in the bring the Voidbringers back camp since we clearly see Axindweth working towards that goal. Edit: Maybe Hoid wants to bring back the Voidbringers? He kind of needed them to come back to bond a spren. The "greatest fool" quote also really applies to Hoid. Edited March 3 by Crossen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, Crossen said: The only thing that does not quite fit is the shimmer face Stormfather knowing about the Herald dying. Maybe a Herald is controlling the face somehow? I don't think this would explain it, because we see in the Prelude that Kalak had no idea whether any of the others were alive and none of them knew whether he was, which suggests they don't have a way to tell when fellow Heralds die. Modern-day Kalak's conviction that if the Fused have returned then Taln must have broken is also odd if he knows Chana has died and could easily be the one to have done it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Crossen Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Could the shimmer face Stormfather be a voidspren? From the Coppermind Ulim page: Quote When particularly passionate, his form seems to electrify. When moving across surfaces, Ulim appears as rolling lightning. ...[1] Ulim can render himself invisible at will, and used that capability to hide from most Listeners for years.[3] Ulim often speaks with an arrogant, spiteful attitude marked by human mannerisms, as noted by Hariel.[2] Also in RoW at the end of Chapter 77 Ulim speaks to Venli through her mind, confirming that they have that capability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I don't think this would explain it, because we see in the Prelude that Kalak had no idea whether any of the others were alive and none of them knew whether he was, which suggests they don't have a way to tell when fellow Heralds die. Modern-day Kalak's conviction that if the Fused have returned then Taln must have broken is also odd if he knows Chana has died and could easily be the one to have done it. The timeline is less revealing than you’d think though. Before Kelak was done fighting, the other heralds had disbanded and abandoned their oaths. It’s possible that Ishar left the group early, and without any way to tell if anyone else had died, someone non-Ishar was asked to wait and see what became of Kelak. On another vein, it’s possible Ishar’s connection to the strained oathpact has changed over the past 4500 years. As the person who created it, maybe certain steps have been taken to maintain in, or perhaps resisting the return to Braize had caused other issues for Ishar as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 16 hours ago, Crossen said: Note that this is on the balcony right outside his chambers. The fabrial could possibly extend that far. No, it's not on the balcony, it's on the ground, outside - he fell through his balcony, WoK Prologue: Quote Szeth Lashed the balcony downward a fth time. The balcony supports shattered and the entire structure broke free from the building. [...] The balcony dropped away, the king looking up with shock as he lost his footing. 16 hours ago, Crossen said: The last bit of dialog on the balcony with the Stormfather does make more sense if Thaidakar does the talking instead of the Stormfather. Thaidakar as the Stormfaker? I'm quite sure it's impossible. He lacks abilities to perform such a hijacking, he is unable to even leave Scadrial, and they were talking just a moment ago. It makes no sense for him to be the Stormfaker, I don't see anything he could have achieved by this. Gavilar just discovered the Stormfather was lying to him, he was dying and the Stormfather granted him the last act of mercy, giving him peace by saying it wasn't him - a question Gavilar would have asked himself. 16 hours ago, Crossen said: The only thing that does not quite fit is the shimmer face Stormfather knowing about the Herald dying. It makes sense for the Stormfather to know about it. He's Honor's Cognitive Shadow, remnant of the god, connected to the pieces of Splintered Honor, prepared by Honor and acting as Honor himself. If one were to replace Honor in the Oathpact it would be the Stormfather. Heralds are unable to sense each other's death, no other entity would be Connected enough to sense that. 16 hours ago, Crossen said: while the shimmer face Stormfather seems to be in the bring back the Voidbringers camp. Yes, he seems indifferent about it and that doesn't make much sense. However the Stormfather knew this was inevitable from Honor's visions, so that might explain why he didn't care that much. It's still weird a little WoR I-5: Quote I SUPPOSE THIS MUST BE, the Stormfather said. IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN 16 hours ago, Crossen said: Edit: Maybe Hoid wants to bring back the Voidbringers? He kind of needed them to come back to bond a spren. The "greatest fool" quote also really applies to Hoid. Hoid's goal is to permanently imprison Odium on Roshar. I doubt he would want to fasten the incoming Desolation. He wants to delay Odium as long as possible. I doubt it's him. 10 hours ago, Crossen said: Could the shimmer face Stormfather be a voidspren? From the Coppermind Ulim page: Also in RoW at the end of Chapter 77 Ulim speaks to Venli through her mind, confirming that they have that capability. A Voidspren has no means to know that a Herald died. And why a Shimmer face only? The Stormfather appears as a shimmering to Dalinar as well, he spoke in terror about Gavilar just giving in on Braize instead of stopping Desolations for as long as possible. The shimmering Stormfather has too many moments when he fits with the real Stormfather. This can't be the division. 6 hours ago, teknopathetic said: Before Kelak was done fighting, the other heralds had disbanded and abandoned their oaths. It’s possible that Ishar left the group early, and without any way to tell if anyone else had died, someone non-Ishar was asked to wait and see what became of Kelak. The idea to abandon the Oathpact came from Ishar when the battle was ending, when they all met together and realized all but Taln and possibly Kalak survived. They knew for sure Taln was dead - Jezrien reported this to Kalak with certainty (messengers?), they weren't sure about Kalak. The fact that Kalak didn't know about this means they talked about it together with Ishar before they’d disbanded. Ishar wasn't sure if Kalak survived too then. Ishar can't feel Herald's death. It's really simple. Quote Oddly, only one of the others was waiting for him. Jezrien. Had the other eight all died? It was possible. The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious. [...] “You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.” “Talenel,” Kalak said. His was the only Blade unaccounted for. “Yes. He died holding that passage by the northern waterway.” [...] Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. “I was chosen to wait for you. We weren’t certain if you had survived. A … a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.” Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?” “Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.” 6 hours ago, teknopathetic said: On another vein, it’s possible Ishar’s connection to the strained oathpact has changed over the past 4500 years. As the person who created it, maybe certain steps have been taken to maintain in, or perhaps resisting the return to Braize had caused other issues for Ishar as well. No proof - Dalinar saw the Oathpact, he saw only one line that was still strong (Taln), the rest was equally weak. He didn't see any other line being stronger than the rest. And if in Prelude Kalak, who was still bound to the Oathpact, was unable to feel a Herald dying, then Ishar with mostly broken Connection would be unable as well. Not to mention Ishar back then was still unable to feel that. RoW ch 47: Quote Dalinar stepped forward, walking among his stunned bodyguards, noting eight lines of light extending from Nale into the distance. “I see the Oathpact, I think,” Dalinar said. “The thing that bound them together and made them capable of holding the enemy in Damnation.” A cage, forged of their spirits, the Stormfather said in his mind. It was broken. Even before Jezrien’s death, they shattered it by what they did long ago. “No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 On 3/2/2024 at 10:09 AM, alder24 said: He sent visions to Dalinar, but when he failed to stop Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm, he sent his Highstorm to kill them all and hide his own failure. He was trying to stop Syl from returning to Kal, but he accepted his Words letting her go. He refused to bond with Dalinar, but a second later accepted his words. Or in OB he refused Kaladin's request to save people from his Highstorm, but later he felt apologetic and guided Kaladin back to Urithiru. He didn't want to tell Dalinar who Ishar is, he hid from Dalinar that he can speak other languages revealing this only when he was pressed by Dalinar. In RoW he kept telling Dalinar not to push him, but when Dalinar was riding the storm and pushed against the storm, the Stormfather was curious, not angry. In the end he even showed mercy to Eshonai, admitting he should have done more to help her. Even some Honorspren believe that the Stormfather has changed lately. And there are also many other examples of Stormfather changing his mind almost immediately when pressed by Dalinar. It's there, in WoK, WoR, OB and RoW. All there, hidden in plain sight. So, I'm not going to continue arguing about Stormfaker v Stormfather, but I did want to talk about these a little bit. The only one of these that I can see that he is actively changing his mind is the one about Ishar. The rest of these seem more to me to be things that he couldn't avoid, or actions he could take in relation to actions he couldn't. I'm hazy on the details of him stopping the Everstorm, but it felt to me more like he couldn't stop them, all he could do was rush the storm that was already on the way, hopefully putting an end to the eternal cycle of war. It seems to me he's required to accept oaths made in earnest and in the correct manner. In the scene with Dalinar, he didn't want to be bonded, but the Connection was there and the Oaths were made correctly. He didn't want Syl to go back Kal, but he couldn't stop her. He didn't specifically hide that Dalinar could use Connection to speak other languages, Dalinar never asked. There is a big difference between not volunteering information, and actively hiding it. I know the Honorspren believe he has changed recently, but it's unclear to me if that is because of the Bond. He warns not to push him, but that seems more like "you're not supposed to do that, there could be bad consequences" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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