[Stormlight 5] The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory: The Official Stormfaker's Support Group

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

1 We didn't have a Dalinar PoV of that moment, we had Ash's PoV for that, another one would be redundant.

2 How did all eight of them not notice? Or better yet, how would Kalak have been so distracted he could miss nine deaths?

3 Considering Ashynite magic is disease based, and Ishar is not only in full health, but had no way of cultiviating a disease like that for seven thousand years, I'm going to say Ashynite Bondsmithing is off of the table.

4 Fortune and Connection are different so while there might be some interplay I doubt you could use one to manipulate the other.

5. Im pretty sure a man claiming to be the reincarnation of Adonalsium, is far too proud to do what someone else orders him to.

 

1. If the Stormfather did feel the true death, then did Brandon decided not to show it to us or mention the Stormfather felt it in RoW. If the Stormfather being involved in the Oathpact this is going to be a plot point in the start of the next book, why not pepper in some hints in RoW? Why not give us a hint that the Stormfather is in anyway involved with the Oathpac? Brandon plotted RoW and S5 together, so some direct choices were made here on this issue. IMO, he has intentionally not shown us the Stormfather's reaction in RoW. If we detect an authorial choice like this, we can speculate. I see 4 possible conclusions:

1. Brandon withheld the fact that the Stormfather felt Jezrian die from us for some narrative reason. He did not want us knowing that yet. 
2. Brandon forgot to show us that the Stormfather reacted. This was an error or an issue with draft changes. 
3. The Stormfather did not feel anything the day Jezrian died and this is a clue pointing towards an imposter in S5
4. The Stormfather would not feel a true death for some reason we do not understand, but did feel Chana die in S5

I choose number 3 because I think it is the easiest explanation. If you choose 1, you need to consider why Brandon would hide such seemingly innocuous information from us. Why would we care if the Stormfather felt it before the revelations of S5? 

2. It seems like Ishar told the others to abandon the Oathpact with when just a single herald had died, but before all the fighting was complete. It is odd, specifically odd, that the group did not wait for Kelek to finish his fighting and get to the meeting point. It is completely within reason that Ishar said "One of us has died and that is enough. I am leaving. Good luck to Kelek. It doesnt matter if I feel his death later or not. Wait for him if yo want but I am out of here". 

3. To my knowledge, Ashyn magic was not disease based before the explosion. And to what extend Brandon may change Ashyn magic is always open. 

4. Ishar is called the Herald of Luck. 

5. Ishar seems to have started his God King behavior right about the same time Gavilar and another Herald died. We know the Tukar thing started about 6 years from present day. So, we can detect a change in what Ishar was doing starting at almost the exact time the Voice says it will change tactics as well. We have no information at all about what Ishar was like before his Tukar war 6 years ago. 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

1. If the Stormfather did feel the true death, then did Brandon decided not to show it to us or mention the Stormfather felt it in RoW. If the Stormfather being involved in the Oathpact this is going to be a plot point in the start of the next book, why not pepper in some hints in RoW? Why not give us a hint that the Stormfather is in anyway involved with the Oathpac? Brandon plotted RoW and S5 together, so some direct choices were made here on this issue. IMO, he has intentionally not shown us the Stormfather's reaction in RoW. If we detect an authorial choice like this, we can speculate. I see 4 possible conclusions:

1. Brandon withheld the fact that the Stormfather felt Jezrian die from us for some narrative reason. He did not want us knowing that yet. 
2. Brandon forgot to show us that the Stormfather reacted. This was an error or an issue with draft changes. 
3. The Stormfather did not feel anything the day Jezrian died and this is a clue pointing towards an imposter in S5
4. The Stormfather would not feel a true death for some reason we do not understand, but did feel Chana die in S5

I choose number 3 because I think it is the easiest explanation. If you choose 1, you need to consider why Brandon would hide such seemingly innocuous information from us. Why would we care if the Stormfather felt it before the revelations of S5? 

Because we already saw Ash react therefore another scene showing someone react to Jezrien die is repetitive.

12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

2. It seems like Ishar told the others to abandon the Oathpact with when just a single herald had died, but before all the fighting was complete. It is odd, specifically odd, that the group did not wait for Kelek to finish his fighting and get to the meeting point. It is completely within reason that Ishar said "One of us has died and that is enough. I am leaving. Good luck to Kelek. It doesnt matter if I feel his death later or not. Wait for him if yo want but I am out of here". 

The fighting had to be almost entirely over otherwise they wouldn't have had eight of them meet up.

14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

3. To my knowledge, Ashyn magic was not disease based before the explosion. And to what extend Brandon may change Ashyn magic is always open. 

What explosion? There was a change to Ashynite magic, at some point, but I find the more likely that the change occured when Cultivation arrived in the Rosharan system.

18 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

4. Ishar is called the Herald of Luck.

Fortune isn't luck.

19 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

5. Ishar seems to have started his God King behavior right about the same time Gavilar and another Herald died. We know the Tukar thing started about 6 years from present day. So, we can detect a change in what Ishar was doing starting at almost the exact time the Voice says it will change tactics as well. We have no information at all about what Ishar was like before his Tukar war 6 years ago. 

We know none of the other Heralds changed, why would Ishar be the exception?

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

1. Because we already saw Ash react therefore another scene showing someone react to Jezrien die is repetitive.

2. The fighting had to be almost entirely over otherwise they wouldn't have had eight of them meet up.

3. What explosion? There was a change to Ashynite magic, at some point, but I find the more likely that the change occured when Cultivation arrived in the Rosharan system.

4. Fortune isn't luck.

5. We know none of the other Heralds changed, why would Ishar be the exception?

1. Ash reacting is information we would have expected. The Stormfather reacting is not something we knew to be the case. The Stormfather has never hinted at a connection to the Oathpact. Yes, we could say because Honour died Dalinar/Stormfather can make decisions about the trapping of Odium, but that doesnt mean the Stormfather or Dalinar would feel the oathpact, or even more feel it so much that they lose control and scream about it. Do we think an event would overwhelm a being like the Stormfather? And that we wouldn't even hear a rumble of thunder? And sure, it is very possible to think that the Stormfather would feel a tickle, but a full blown scream? My thought before S5 would have been "The Stormfather and/or Dalianr may be able to feel changes in the oathpact and be aware of them on some level". I don't think anyone would have said "The Stormfather and/or Dalinar would lose physical control and begin screaming at the non-true death of a herald" 

The Stormfather feeling something could have been true, and that is fine, but our attention had never been drawn there despite if what you think is true, the Stormfather being very interested in the Oathpact overall. If the Stormfather can feel the connection, this would have been a good place to drop that. And if the Stormfather can feel it, then should Dalinar have been able to sense something as well? Since Dalinar, not the Stormfather, isa actually the one who can cancel Odium's prison, so why not have Dalinar feel it too? Maybe Dalinar hear a scream or thunder or felt a tug in his belly, but we see no hint of it? If Dalinar did, it is also odd not to mention that fact anywhere. Brandon does not have to mention it, but we are allowed to raise an eye-brow at his decisions here. I think it wasn't mentioned because it never happened, and we have just as much evidence for my thought as for yours. 

2. We dont understand what the end of a Desolation even is. What we do know is that they came to a decision before Kelek was done and that people did not wait for him to be done before they left the spot. If Ishar leaves before Kelek is done, the other Herlads have no way of knowing. The Bondsmith who made the Oathpact is just as reasonable to consider sensitive to herald deaths as the Stormfather might be, if not more so. 

3. Something Ishar did on Ashym made Ashyn uninhabitable and caused burns all over many of the refugees. I have seen a WOB that Ashyn pre-calamity had different initiation than the germ one that Brandon proposed in an unpublished work.

4. Coppermind:
Fortune is a Spiritual property in the cosmere,^[2] related to luck, seeing the future, or versions of the future.^[3]
The precise nature of Fortune and how it functions and is used, is currently unclear. Fortune has been described as "luck" by less cosmere-aware groups, such as the Terris three centuries after the Catacendre.^[4] However, it is clear from other individuals that are more cosmere-aware that Fortune is more than simple luck. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise,^[5] and a way in which one can see the future.^[3] It is implied that Fortune is a thing one can access^[6] and draw upon.^[7] Someone drawing upon Fortune can lead to events that appear to be coincidence. 

People can quibble, but Fortune is closer to Luck than Fortune is to many many other things. 

5. I disagree. Kelek says he is getting worse. Ash seems to have been a somewhat crazy but consistent infiltrator who managed to hold together a crew before, but now has changed her goals and motivations entirely. Nale has changed his opinions and allegiances due to recent events. One herald got themselves murdered which is a big change IMO. Heck, one herald might even have gone to help Taravangian after the night of Gavilar's death. Many heralds have changed in the past 6 years - it is just Ishar may have known first and changed sooner. The Night of Gavilar's death leads to bigger changes in the Heralds than they have likely seen in 4000 years. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

3. Something Ishar did on Ashym made Ashyn uninhabitable and caused burns all over many of the refugees. I have seen a WOB that Ashyn pre-calamity had different innitation than the germ one that Brandon proposed in an unpublished work.

Ashyn's surface is perpetually on fire, but there has never been a mention of an explosion. The only thing we know about magic is that at some point in the past it was different.

23 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

4. Coppermind:
Fortune is a Spiritual property in the cosmere,^[2] related to luck, seeing the future, or versions of the future.^[3]
The precise nature of Fortune and how it functions and is used, is currently unclear. Fortune has been described as "luck" by less cosmere-aware groups, such as the Terris three centuries after the Catacendre.^[4] However, it is clear from other individuals that are more cosmere-aware that Fortune is more than simple luck. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise,^[5] and a way in which one can see the future.^[3] It is implied that Fortune is a thing one can access^[6] and draw upon.^[7] Someone drawing upon Fortune can lead to events that appear to be coincidence. 

People can quibble, but Fortune is closer to Luck than Fortune is to many many other things. 

None of the uses for fortune has even the slightest bit to do with luck, it's always been about the future.

23 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

5. I disagree. Kelek says he is getting worse. Ash seems to have been a somewhat crazy but consistent infiltrator who managed to hold together a crew. Nale has changed his opinions and allegiances due to recent events. Many have changed in the past 6 years - it is just Ishar may have known first. 

Kalak said that during the feast, and he's just as paranoid and set on leaving Roshar six years later. Nale was against the Radiants then and is now. Ash snuck inot Kholinar and broke her statue, just as she is doing now. They are all basically the same as they were, why would Ishar have such a dramatic change from silent obidient manipulator, to loud obnoxious self proclaimed reincarnation of Adonalsium?

Edited May 13, 2022 by Frustration

[teknopathetic]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. Ashyn's surface is perpetually on fire, but there has never been a mention of an explosion. The only thing we know about magic is that at some point in the past it was different.

2. None of the uses for fortune has even the slightest bit to do with luck, it's always been about the future.

3.Kalak said that during the feast, and he's just as paranoid and set on leaving Roshar six years later. Nale was against the Radiants then and is now. Ash snuck inot Kholinar and broke her statue, just as she is doing now. They are all basically the same as they were, why would Ishar have such a dramatic change from silent obidient manipulator, to loud obnoxious self proclaimed reincarnation of Adonalsium?

I am going to PM you on the tone of your response as you asked us to earlier. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

I am going to PM you the tone of your response on as you asked us to earlier. 

Thank you.

[teknopathetic]

19 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

I don't think Ive seen it suggested but if there is a storm faker I do feel it might be Tanavast. If memory serves right there is an old WoB where he RAFOs if his cognitive Shadow is still about and narratively him being the stormfaker would probably work best. Ishar seems to crazy to me to pull such a trick off and themeatically I get the sense this novel will focus on people being kicked off their pedestal, so on that theme making someone like Tanavast terrible would work better for it.

Though I'm not fully convinced it is a Storm Faker, namely because I find the idea that the Stormfather has just been lying to us the entire time more interesting myself.

Tanavast being still around could be interesting for sure! That would be almost like the Stormfaker and Stormfather theories were both true since Tanavast Sort of is the Stormfather haha. 

And as for the narrative, I also like the idea of the Stormfather being a liar. I would love to see someone go through and find the times it looks like the Stormfather was actively lying to someone. From what I recall it doesn't happen, but if it does, then I would be much more open to the idea that the S5 Voice is the real Stormfather. I have a hard time thinking Gavilar's entity realized that lying was bad and that he shouldn't do it no more. 
 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Tanavast being still around could be interesting for sure! That would be almost like the Stormfaker and Stormfather theories were both true since Tanavast Sort of is the Stormfather haha. 

And as for the narrative, I also like the idea of the Stormfather being a liar. I would love to see someone go through and find the times it looks like the Stormfather was actively lying to someone. From what I recall it doesn't happen, but if it does, then I would be much more open to the idea that the S5 Voice is the real Stormfather. I have a hard time thinking Gavilar's entity realized that lying was bad and that he shouldn't do it no more. 
 

Lying Stormfather would change a lot, and it would set up conflict between him and Dalinar, potentially fulfilling some of the Death Rattles.

But I think with the prologue 5 and assuming it was indeed real Stormfather all along, there is one instance of him lying to Dalinar - when in OB he was explaining Oathpact and Heralds in the vision, he said "Taln had finnaly broken" like others and cause True Desolation - we know from WoB that he didn't break and he should know it as he felt another herald death - assuming it was him in prologue.

[+mdross81]

39 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Another thing that could be useful to look at is the Italics and small caps divide, maybe everything in italics was from Ishar? My memory could be wrong but I could have sworn the Stormfather still uses smallcaps with Dalinar at times,

I'm actually looking back through at this right now and hope to present a fuller analysis (I'm through OB so far), but basically whenever SF speaks to anyone other than Dalinar, he does so either during a highstorm or during a vision and he speaks in small caps. Pre-bonding, SF spoke a couple of lines to Dalinar in plain text during the climax of WoR. Only Dalinar could hear it though, and after those first few lines SF switched to small caps. My hunch is that the plain text was before the highstorm the SF was bringing to wash everything away got close enough for him to speak as the storm.

Once Dalinar bonds the SF, the SF speaks almost exclusively in italics in Dalinar's mind. To the extent the SF speaks in small caps to Dalinar once they are bonded, it's during visions and for the benefit of others there (such as Navani) whose minds he can't speak into.

Dalinar, for his part, usually whispers out loud to the SF in plain text (I think he's described as whispering less when in the visions, presumably because there he's not worried about looking like he's talking to himself), but toward the end of OB Dalinar starts mentally speaking to the SF in italics at times.

Edited May 13, 2022 by mdross81

[teknopathetic]

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Lying Stormfather would change a lot, and it would set up conflict between him and Dalinar, potentially fulfilling some of the Death Rattles.

But I think with the prologue 5 and assuming it was indeed real Stormfather all along, there is one instance of him lying to Dalinar - when in OB he was explaining Oathpact and Heralds in the vision, he said "Taln had finnaly broken" like others and cause True Desolation - we know from WoB that he didn't break and he should know it as he felt another herald death - assuming it was him in prologue.

This might not be a lie though. It is possible the Stormfather just assumed it had to be Taln that had broken. It makes sense seeing as that had been the status-quo for 4000 years. I think anyone who was anyone assumed Taln must have broken. Even Ash thinks Taln broke. 

If it is a lie and the Stormfather lied to Dalinar, I wonder why he didn’t want anyone to know about Chana (or whoever) broke. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[+mdross81]

14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Lying Stormfather would change a lot, and it would set up conflict between him and Dalinar, potentially fulfilling some of the Death Rattles.

But I think with the prologue 5 and assuming it was indeed real Stormfather all along, there is one instance of him lying to Dalinar - when in OB he was explaining Oathpact and Heralds in the vision, he said "Taln had finnaly broken" like others and cause True Desolation - we know from WoB that he didn't break and he should know it as he felt another herald death - assuming it was him in prologue.

This might not be a lie though. It is possible the Stormfather just assumed it had to be Taln that had broken. It makes sense seeing as that had been the status-quo for 4000 years. I think anyone who was anyone assumed Taln must have broken. 
 

If it is a lie and the Stormfather lied to Dalinar, I wonder why he didn’t want anyone to know about Chana (or whoever) broke. 

Yeah, the bit about Taln breaking can be explained by SF making an assumption. But IF the SA 5 entity and the SF we've come to know are the same entity, there's another part of that same convo that could be a lie. (Full disclosure, I was gearing up to say it was DEFINITELY a lie until I realized there's some cagey language):

Quote

He finally broke, the Stormfather said. He has joined the nine, who still live. In these millennia none have ever died and returned to Damnation, but it doesn’t matter as it once did. The Oathpact has been weakened almost to annihilation, and Odium has created his own storm. The Fused do not return to Damnation when killed. They are reborn in the next Everstorm.

There's ambiguity in that highlighted bit. Does it simply mean that none of the other nine has died? In which case the statement would be a lie if spoken by the same being as in the SA 5 prologue because that being definitely knew a Herald died.

But, there's another possibility. This line could mean that that none of the other nine have done BOTH of those things: died AND returned to Damnation. If the Herald that died during the prologue did not, for some reason, return to Braize, then the SF could be the same entity as in the prologue and technically not be lying in this excerpt. To me, that seems inconsistent with the SF's character to be so tricky with language, so I put this as a point in favor of Stormfaker.

[therunner]

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Because we already saw Ash react therefore another scene showing someone react to Jezrien die is repetitive.

Showing or at least mentioning Stormfather react would provide additional information. Additionally, if temporary death of Herald would freak out Stormfather that much, his reaction to permanent death would most likely be far greater. I would expect that Dalinar would at least mention it.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

What explosion? There was a change to Ashynite magic, at some point, but I find the more likely that the change occured when Cultivation arrived in the Rosharan system.

Ashynite magic was not always illness based, and they did have access to powers of Bondsmithing/Connection powers, and they were stronger than bound Radiant surges.
See WoBs
 

Quote

beer_in_an_esky

1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that?

2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based?

3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet.

2) No.

3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

Quote

Ryan

Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges.

Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020)

So there is a way to access surges that is neither Spren based, Honorblade based or disease based. Someone who was working with Connection for ~5000 years should be able to maintain his powers, I would say.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Fortune isn't luck.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

None of the uses for fortune has even the slightest bit to do with luck, it's always been about the future.

Untrue, Hoid explicitly uses Fortune to be where he wants/needs to be, which makes him lucky.

Quote

Xyrd (paraphrased)

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Xyrd (paraphrased)

Is chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

Additionally, objects appearing where they are convenient but unlikely (Rock's razor, Tien's horse) could be caused by Fortune,

Quote

Koajan

I have a question about the man at the end of Rhythm of War that Kaladin finds, that used to recollect lost objects from the Shattered Plains, such as Rock's razor or even Tien's horse. Will we get to know more about him, or is it just a random man?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what is happening there is all RAFO material. I'm not gonna answer any specifics about Tien's horse or even about Tien. There are lots of ways you can theorize that this happened, and I'm not gonna canonize which of them it is. One of those includes Hoid and his shenanigans, that's a possibility. One of which is kind of some Fortune being bent around what's going on. Other possibilities are that there's a divine manifestation. I'm not gonna say which of those it is, but there are lots of plausible answers there.

Barcelona Virtual Signing (July 9, 2021)

so Fortune can make unlikely things happen, i.e. it can cause lead to lucky coincidences. From these description Fortune seems to be both of futuresight and also of probability manipulation.
 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Showing or at least mentioning Stormfather react would provide additional information. Additionally, if temporary death of Herald would freak out Stormfather that much, his reaction to permanent death would most likely be far greater. I would expect that Dalinar would at least mention it.

Ashynite magic was not always illness based, and they did have access to powers of Bondsmithing/Connection powers, and they were stronger than bound Radiant surges.
 

So there is a way to access surges that is neither Spren based, Honorblade based or disease based. Someone who was working with Connection for ~5000 years should be able to maintain his powers, I would say.

Untrue, Hoid explicitly uses Fortune to be where he wants/needs to be, which makes him lucky.

That goes both ways - we've never seen herald react to temporary death of another herald, especially in prologue that provides us lots of information about this. Not even later did any herald mention that few years before they had felt herald dieing - not Nale, not Kalak, not Ash or others - which by your logic it would be improtant piece of knowledge to share. Lack of information is not giving us anything, it's open door for speculations which works both ways. From storytelling purposes there was no need to show SF reaction to that, as it was shown though better eyes. We can't assume that there was no reaction or there was one. And from continuity reason mentioning SF reaction to it year later is just weird - "hey remember your reaction to Yez death year before? What was that?" - just doesn't fit at all. Moreover it was already established that SF can feel Ishar's location, so there is a connection at least between them.

 

 

Yes, Ishar is known as Herald of Luck, Kalak and Jezrien are known as Stormfather - which doesn't prove anything. Ishar could somehow reach to fortune to see future but that just leaves us with too many questions. Or as I explained earlier - assuming he is Stormfaker he could have felt Jezrien's blade, as Kalak mention it in Jasnah Prologue. Nale knew it in Venli chapter - somehow. It's easier to assume that they can feel proximity of Honorblades due to existing connection rather than Ishar can use Fortune with unknown abilities, and knowing that anything in Honor's surges is against futuresight. 

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Showing or at least mentioning Stormfather react would provide additional information. Additionally, if temporary death of Herald would freak out Stormfather that much, his reaction to permanent death would most likely be far greater. I would expect that Dalinar would at least mention it.

A year later? in RoW Ash mentiones that Jezrien is dead forever and no one questions it.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Ashynite magic was not always illness based, and they did have access to powers of Bondsmithing/Connection powers, and they were stronger than bound Radiant surges.
See WoBs

Roshar had magic before Honor came, but his arrival dramatically changed how magic worked. I see no reason Ashyn should not be the same for Cultivation. Why would whatever Ishar did cause the change rather than the arrival of a shard?

5 hours ago, therunner said:

So there is a way to access surges that is neither Spren based, Honorblade based or disease based. Someone who was working with Connection for ~5000 years should be able to maintain his powers, I would say.

If Ishar already had access to Bondsmith powers why would he need to reclaim his blade at all?

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Untrue, Hoid explicitly uses Fortune to be where he wants/needs to be, which makes him lucky.

Knowledge isn't luck. Hoid knows where he needs to be, that is a dsitinct knowledge. He is being told "Hey something important will happen here, in the future."

Every time Brandon describes Hoid using that ability he says something about knowledge.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why didn't Hoid take the second bead of lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid knew that if he did so, bad things would happen.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Weltall (paraphrased)

I asked what Hoid's favorite flavor of instant noodles is.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

At first I think he misheard me asking what his own favorite is ('spicy Korean ramen' apparently, though I don't remember the exact specifics) so I clarified. He said that Hoid is looking forward to instant noodles but they aren't Yolish and he knows about them via the same method that he knows where he needs to be in the cosmere. 

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

Xyrd (paraphrased)

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Xyrd (paraphrased)

Is chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, objects appearing where they are convenient but unlikely (Rock's razor, Tien's horse) could be caused by Fortune,

That is an explanation, I lean more towards the God Beyond there.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

So Fortune can make unlikely things happen, i.e. it can cause lead to lucky coincidences. From these description Fortune seems to be both of futuresight and also of probability manipulation.

It lets you know when things are going to happen.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Frustration

[therunner]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

That goes both ways - we've never seen herald react to temporary death of another herald, especially in prologue that provides us lots of information about this. Not even later did any herald mention that few years before they had felt herald dieing - not Nale, not Kalak, not Ash or others - which by your logic it would be improtant piece of knowledge to share. Lack of information is not giving us anything, it's open door for speculations which works both ways. From storytelling purposes there was no need to show SF reaction to that, as it was shown though better eyes. We can't assume that there was no reaction or there was one. And from continuity reason mentioning SF reaction to it year later is just weird - "hey remember your reaction to Yez death year before? What was that?" - just doesn't fit at all. Moreover it was already established that SF can feel Ishar's location, so there is a connection at least between them.

I disagree that it goes both ways, prior to this chapter we have been shown that Heralds can react to at least permanent death of another, conversely we had no evidence that Stormfather can detect such. After this prologue we either have evidence that Stormfather can react to temporary deaths, or that such detection is evidence for it not being Stormfather, in accordance with previous evidence.
 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, Ishar is known as Herald of Luck, Kalak and Jezrien are known as Stormfather - which doesn't prove anything. Ishar could somehow reach to fortune to see future but that just leaves us with too many questions. Or as I explained earlier - assuming he is Stormfaker he could have felt Jezrien's blade, as Kalak mention it in Jasnah Prologue. Nale knew it in Venli chapter - somehow. It's easier to assume that they can feel proximity of Honorblades due to existing connection rather than Ishar can use Fortune with unknown abilities, and knowing that anything in Honor's surges is against futuresight. 

My argument never rested on Ishar being called Herald of Luck, so all this does not really matter. We have seen Bondsmith connect people to past aspects of people, and we have seen enlightened Truthwatcher show someone alternate version of themselves. In light of this I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that Bondsmith with over 5000 years of skill could use their powers to connect either themselves or someone else to future possible aspect of themselves or someone else. In that way they would obtain knowledge of future without need for Fortune (which we understand very little)

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

A year later? in RoW Ash mentiones that Jezrien is dead forever and no one questions it.

I was thinking more of showing it at the end of Oathbringer along with Ash for example. Lack of scene of Stormfather having a reaction is not the same as Stormfather not having reaction, however we know Heralds can at least sometimes detect things happening to others thanks to that scene, for Stormfather we had no such knowledge prior to prologue 5.
 

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Roshar had magic before Honor came, but his arrival dramatically changed how magic worked. I see no reason Ashyn should not be the same for Cultivation. Why would whatever Ishar did cause the change rather than the arrival of a shard?

I never stated that Ishar changed the magic system, not sure where you got that. I was saying that Ishar, as someone with probably unparaleled understanding of Connection could feasibly still use (if in diminished form) the original method he used to gain Bondsmith powers, which predate both disease based magic and Rosharan surgebinding.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

If Ishar already had access to Bondsmith powers why would he need to reclaim his blade at all?

Obtaining the same or similar power multiple times can strengthen it, see Hoid and his Lightweaving or WoBs on having two spren with overlapping surges. He could want the blade to make himself stronger then before.
Arguably we have evidence for him being surprisingly strong, see Stormfather's reaction to Ishar almost stealing Nahel bond.  (of course that could also be explained via Honor's restrictions falling away, making Surgebinding as a whole stronger).
 

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Knowledge isn't luck. Hoid knows where he needs to be, that is a dsitinct knowledge. He is being told "Hey something important will happen here, in the future."

Every time Brandon describes Hoid using that ability he says something about knowledge.

  Hide contents

Questioner

Why didn't Hoid take the second bead of lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid knew that if he did so, bad things would happen.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Weltall (paraphrased)

I asked what Hoid's favorite flavor of instant noodles is.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

At first I think he misheard me asking what his own favorite is ('spicy Korean ramen' apparently, though I don't remember the exact specifics) so I clarified. He said that Hoid is looking forward to instant noodles but they aren't Yolish and he knows about them via the same method that he knows where he needs to be in the cosmere. 

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

Xyrd (paraphrased)

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Xyrd (paraphrased)

Is chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

You say Hoid knows where to be, however one of the WoBs you quote is quite explicit that Hoid usually does not know why he is where he is. So Fortune must be able to act without explicit knowledge.

Additionally, in one recent WoB Brandon says that being around Axies the Collector could be dangerous, due to wrong kind of Fortune and the way it is written it sounds to me like bad luck and wrong Fortune can be at least related.
 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Axies the Collector would probably be fine. We would just have a chat.

But bad luck follows him because of the Curse of Kind, so maybe not. Maybe I wouldn't want to be around Axies the Collector, he is channeling the wrong kind of Fortune. Channeling is not an actual term - don't take that and put it in the wiki. 

YouTube Livestream 6 (April 23, 2020)

So I will stand by my statement that Fortune can be kind of luck, or lead to improbable events happening surprisingly often.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is an explanation, I lean more towards the God Beyond there.

As we will never have confirmation if God Beyond exists, that is not much of evidence.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

It lets you know when things are going to happen.

Among other things, it is not just that based on other WoBs.

[+mdross81]

So this is a little bit of a tangent, perhaps, but I think this is probably as good a place as any to discuss. It’s about the bit in the prologue when the Herald dies:

Quote

Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors.

It’s the frost that got me thinking about where else we’d seen that. We’ve seen frost appear a number of different times throughout the series. It crops up when Szeth and Kal are using Lashings. Dalinar’s Blade is noted to be frosted once when he summons it in WoK.

But the times I want to focus on are when we see frost appear while Radiants are swearing an Ideal. Specifically, we see frosted Windrunner glyphs appear for Kal’s third Ideal (WoR 84), Lopen’s second (OB 121), and Huio’s third (DS 18). There is also a burst of frost and power around Lopen when he swears his third Ideal in the Dawnshard prologue.

So what’s going on here? Well, everybody’s favorite mad god-king has the explanation, I think. From RoW 111:

Quote

“Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm.”

So Ishar is telling us that when a Radiant swears an Ideal, they touch the Spiritual Realm and that’s also when we see the frost appear. Seems to me, given the frost in the prologue, that there is likely something similar going on mechanics-wise when a Herald dies (and presumably is returned to Braize). This perhaps explains Ishar and Nale’s misguided belief that Radiants swearing Ideals would potentially allow the Fused to return.

From Edgedancer, chapter 9:

Quote

“Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation”

And here’s Szeth describing it in OB 90:

Quote

The Herald had taken him on a mission to Tashikk, hunting Surgebinders from other orders. A heartless act that Nin had explained would prevent the coming of the Desolation.

Mraize says something similar in his letter to Shallan in OB 40:

Quote

Nale believed that men speaking the Words of other orders would hasten the return of the Voidbringers.

And lastly, here’s Nale in RoW 77 responding to Venli’s suggestion that the Heralds’ actions had allowed Ulim to get to Roshar:

Quote

“Impossible,” Nale repeated. “Ishar said only a Connection between the worlds could cause a bridge to open. And Taln has not given in. I would know if he had.…”

Assuming that Nale is, in this last one, talking about the same concerns relating to Radiants, what I still don’t get is why a Radiant swearing an Ideal and touching the Spiritual Realm would create a Connection between Braize and Roshar.

But I guess I just wanted to point out that the frost appearing in both cases seems to suggest that there may be some kind of similar underlying mechanics going on when the Heralds travel between Roshar and Braize, and when Radiants swear Ideals.

The last thing I wanted to mention here, since Ishar features prominently in this thread, is that the one other time we see a frosted glyph, it’s Ishar’s doing. From RoW 98:

Quote

Ishar wore simple robes, deep blue. He spread his hands out to the sides, frost crystallizing on the stone around him, forming lines.

A glyph. The symbol for mystery, a question.

Make of that what you will.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

I was thinking more of showing it at the end of Oathbringer along with Ash for example. Lack of scene of Stormfather having a reaction is not the same as Stormfather not having reaction, however we know Heralds can at least sometimes detect things happening to others thanks to that scene, for Stormfather we had no such knowledge prior to prologue 5.

So you think it should have been a scene of Ash reacting, followed by a scene of the Stormfather reacting?

8 hours ago, therunner said:

I never stated that Ishar changed the magic system, not sure where you got that. I was saying that Ishar, as someone with probably unparaleled understanding of Connection could feasibly still use (if in diminished form) the original method he used to gain Bondsmith powers, which predate both disease based magic and Rosharan surgebinding.

How about I say it like this, if Cultivation's arival changed the magic, it would have predated Ishar, so he wouldn't have it. If the catycalism changed the magic why?

8 hours ago, therunner said:

You say Hoid knows where to be, however one of the WoBs you quote is quite explicit that Hoid usually does not know why he is where he is. So Fortune must be able to act without explicit knowledge.

Whithout knowing WHY, he still knows where he needs to be.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, in one recent WoB Brandon says that being around Axies the Collector could be dangerous, due to wrong kind of Fortune and the way it is written it sounds to me like bad luck and wrong Fortune can be at least related.

That does put a damper on my argument, but as it's the only thing even slightly luck related I'm going to say we don't know enough.

Personally I think of Fortune as more of a gut instinct, that you can expand into deeper and deeper knowledge.

Spoiler

alercah

Do regular people in the cosmere have an innate, subconscious ability to read the Spiritual Realm just a little bit, that might manifest as gut instinct or intuition?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in the cosmere, there is some validity to "gut" instincts in some people with a closer connection to the Spiritual.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 28, 2021)

 

8 hours ago, therunner said:

As we will never have confirmation if God Beyond exists, that is not much of evidence.

That is true, but you have to admit that the reason Brandon put it there was as kind of an act of divine intervantion for Kaladin.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

My argument never rested on Ishar being called Herald of Luck, so all this does not really matter. We have seen Bondsmith connect people to past aspects of people, and we have seen enlightened Truthwatcher show someone alternate version of themselves. In light of this I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that Bondsmith with over 5000 years of skill could use their powers to connect either themselves or someone else to future possible aspect of themselves or someone else. In that way they would obtain knowledge of future without need for Fortune (which we understand very little)

If that is the case why did Honor, perhaps the shard most attuned to Connection have such bad future sight?

Edited May 15, 2022 by Frustration

[therunner]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

So you think it should have been a scene of Ash reacting, followed by a scene of the Stormfather reacting?

Possibly, more elegant would be something like Dalinar questioning Ash, and then suddenly both Ash and Stormfather reacting. This is of course predicated on Stormfather having a reaction and not hiding it from Dalinar.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

How about I say it like this, if Cultivation's arival changed the magic, it would have predated Ishar, so he wouldn't have it. If the catycalism changed the magic why?

Ah, that makes more sense, thanks for elaborating.
Good point, so far all the times magic systems have been changed Shard was involved (as far as I recall), so it does make sense that Shard would be involved in this change. Only other option would be the moment of Odium investing in the system (disease based magic being more adversarial), however that is too much of a stretch to me, so I concede this point.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Whithout knowing WHY, he still knows where he needs to be.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

That does put a damper on my argument, but as it's the only thing even slightly luck related I'm going to say we don't know enough.

Personally I think of Fortune as more of a gut instinct, that you can expand into deeper and deeper knowledge.

  Reveal hidden contents

alercah

Do regular people in the cosmere have an innate, subconscious ability to read the Spiritual Realm just a little bit, that might manifest as gut instinct or intuition?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in the cosmere, there is some validity to "gut" instincts in some people with a closer connection to the Spiritual.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 28, 2021)

Fair on the Hoid, I agree.

For the record, I do agree that Fortune can provide one with knowledge and on lowest levels it would seem like a gut instinct, I am merely asserting that Fortune can do additional things which are more proactive, things that could be described as probability manipulation, or simply put increased/decreased luck.
Take as an analogous example (in my mind) Feruchemist using just blank connection to crudely connect to surrounding areas vs Bondsmiths picking and choosing what to do with individual Connection lines. Both applications of Connection, one more passive the other more active.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is true, but you have to admit that the reason Brandon put it there was as kind of an act of divine intervantion for Kaladin.

I do agree with that, to me having in-world explanation (i.e. someone invoking Fortune) is more pleasing. I prefer the unknowable deities to act in less direct manner.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

If that is the case why did Honor, perhaps the shard most attuned to Connection have such bad future sight?

I would say that because in the end it is still a crude method of obtaining information on the future which limits you to one at a time in contrast to more expansive futuresight seemingly connected to Fortune.
In my argument it could be used that way, but it is strictly inferior to using Fortune, hence on Shard level it would be pretty useless.
 

 

@mdross81 good eye, I did not notice that. So frost appearing seems to be linked to Spiritual realm links, and Ishar can create it intentionally per Row. Are there scenes linking blue frost appearing and Stormfather? I don't have books on hand right now so I cannot check.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, therunner said:

I disagree that it goes both ways, prior to this chapter we have been shown that Heralds can react to at least permanent death of another, conversely we had no evidence that Stormfather can detect such. After this prologue we either have evidence that Stormfather can react to temporary deaths, or that such detection is evidence for it not being Stormfather, in accordance with previous evidence.

My argument never rested on Ishar being called Herald of Luck, so all this does not really matter. We have seen Bondsmith connect people to past aspects of people, and we have seen enlightened Truthwatcher show someone alternate version of themselves. In light of this I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that Bondsmith with over 5000 years of skill could use their powers to connect either themselves or someone else to future possible aspect of themselves or someone else. In that way they would obtain knowledge of future without need for Fortune (which we understand very little)

I was thinking more of showing it at the end of Oathbringer along with Ash for example. Lack of scene of Stormfather having a reaction is not the same as Stormfather not having reaction, however we know Heralds can at least sometimes detect things happening to others thanks to that scene, for Stormfather we had no such knowledge prior to prologue 5.

It's definitely goes both ways, it's the same argument over and over again. Your points are that because Ash felt Jez perma death, Ishi also could have felt Chana regular death. My is because perma death and regular death are completely different things, and we have proof on page of herald not reacting and not knowing about regular death of other heralds, therefore Ishar could not have felt it. And what goes both ways is speculations if SF could have felt it - which we are lacking proof because there is no such scene in books. Lack of proof is not a proof at all, we can either speculate it have happened or nor and both of arguments in this case are equally weak. 

Moreover perma death is much more different than regular death, as perma death quite literally severs all connections between Jezrien and Heralds and torn him out from Oathpact in brutal way - as we see it during Dalinar and Nale fight. Perma death is more similar to trapping BAM in a gem - which completely separated all her connections. Regular death on the other case do not damage any connections, nothing is torn out, nothing is removed, or severed. It's reasonable to see why one would be felt and other not. 

And once again, we know SF can see Ishar, know where he is and who is he - there is some connection between at least two of them. 

Quote

I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

Oathbringer - chapters 64

It's not that big of a stretch to claim he could have felt death of Chana - it is a big speculation but not completely without proofs. Connection is there. 

 

And yes, Ishar could establish some kind of connection to future of someone to see future - which is weird, unlikely but still possible as we do not know much about this kind of interaction. 

 

@mdross81 good catch. I highly doubt that frost would appear with SF as he is more omnipresent. Yet in case of feeling herald death, both Ishar and SF could reach into spiritual realm and manifest frost - more likely for Ishar to do it. But I also remember that just using surges and Stromlight makes frost appeared - I think in Szeth prologue it was said when he inhale Stormlight, probably when Kaladin was using big amounts of lashings etc - can't remember when but remember it appears when Stormlight is used. Which could indicates that frosting is much common.

[Lego Mistborn]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

How about I say it like this, if Cultivation's arival changed the magic, it would have predated Ishar, so he wouldn't have it. If the catycalism changed the magic why?

  Reveal hidden contents

alercah

Do regular people in the cosmere have an innate, subconscious ability to read the Spiritual Realm just a little bit, that might manifest as gut instinct or intuition?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in the cosmere, there is some validity to "gut" instincts in some people with a closer connection to the Spiritual.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 28, 2021)

 

Well, human surgebinding used to belong to Odium, but the radiants magic comes from Honor and Cultivation, and we do know it was changed at least a little, to prevent the disaster of Ashyn happening again. Also, we know the disease magic is new after the exodus.

[+mdross81]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

@mdross81 good eye, I did not notice that. So frost appearing seems to be linked to Spiritual realm links, and Ishar can create it intentionally per Row. Are there scenes linking blue frost appearing and Stormfather? I don't have books on hand right now so I cannot check.

No other scenes linking frost to the Stormfather. In addition to the times when Ideals are sworn and when Ishar makes the glyph, here are the other mentions of frost:

• Szeth’s clothes are frosted twice and the air is frosted once in the WoK prologue - each time it’s when he Lashes something (himself, the big chunk of wall, the balcony)
• WoK 56 - Oathbringer appears in Dalinar’s hand “steaming and frosted”
• WoK 59: first time Kal intentionally breathes in Stormlight from a sphere leaves his fingers crispy with frost: then frost crystallizes on his arm when he infuses a stone and sticks it to the wall
• WoK 62: frost crystallized on Kal’s arm as he uses Stormlight to heal an arrow wound
• OB 60 - Kal comes down out of flying in the highstorm crusted in frost (this one could be storm or just temperature related)
• RoW 6 - frost crackles on Kal’s uniform as he uses a great deal of Stormlight to heal a wound during a fight with Leshwi
• RoW I-4 - Moash is practicing with Jezrien’s Honorblade and thinks it’s inferior to live Shardblades because  “It couldn’t change shape, and cost far more Stormlight to use, often crusting his clothing with frost when he used it too quickly.”

Someone on Discord said it’s just Stormlight, and I agree that each instance seems to involve large amounts of Stormlight used very quickly. And in every instance other than the one in the prologue I get how the Stormlight is being used. I’m still left wondering why a Herald dying would cause a large amount of Stormlight to ripple through the Stormfather.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Possibly, more elegant would be something like Dalinar questioning Ash, and then suddenly both Ash and Stormfather reacting. This is of course predicated on Stormfather having a reaction and not hiding it from Dalinar.

That is a fair point, I will give you that.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

For the record, I do agree that Fortune can provide one with knowledge and on lowest levels it would seem like a gut instinct, I am merely asserting that Fortune can do additional things which are more proactive, things that could be described as probability manipulation, or simply put increased/decreased luck.
Take as an analogous example (in my mind) Feruchemist using just blank connection to crudely connect to surrounding areas vs Bondsmiths picking and choosing what to do with individual Connection lines. Both applications of Connection, one more passive the other more active.

I will concede the possibility of such power being possible.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I would say that because in the end it is still a crude method of obtaining information on the future which limits you to one at a time in contrast to more expansive futuresight seemingly connected to Fortune.
In my argument it could be used that way, but it is strictly inferior to using Fortune, hence on Shard level it would be pretty useless.

I'll allow that it might be possible, but I find it highly unlikely.

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Well, human surgebinding used to belong to Odium,

Where did you get that from?

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Also, we know the disease magic is new after the exodus.

Or this one?

[therunner]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's definitely goes both ways, it's the same argument over and over again. Your points are that because Ash felt Jez perma death, Ishi also could have felt Chana regular death. My is because perma death and regular death are completely different things, and we have proof on page of herald not reacting and not knowing about regular death of other heralds, therefore Ishar could not have felt it. And what goes both ways is speculations if SF could have felt it - which we are lacking proof because there is no such scene in books. Lack of proof is not a proof at all, we can either speculate it have happened or nor and both of arguments in this case are equally weak. 

Moreover perma death is much more different than regular death, as perma death quite literally severs all connections between Jezrien and Heralds and torn him out from Oathpact in brutal way - as we see it during Dalinar and Nale fight. Perma death is more similar to trapping BAM in a gem - which completely separated all her connections. Regular death on the other case do not damage any connections, nothing is torn out, nothing is removed, or severed. It's reasonable to see why one would be felt and other not.

True, the permanent death the way it happened to Jezrien is very different, however I would lean in the direction that people who are literally bound together have higher likelihood to detect something than a spren that was added on to that connection after the fact, and has never demonstrated any such ability.

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

And once again, we know SF can see Ishar, know where he is and who is he - there is some connection between at least two of them. 

Quote

I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

Oathbringer - chapters 64

 

It's not that big of a stretch to claim he could have felt death of Chana - it is a big speculation but not completely without proofs. Connection is there.

Actually that quote is in context of Stormfather seeing things from the perspective of Highstorm, he says so a sentence or two before, so this is not much of a connection between the two of them, unless you wish to argue that Stormfather has that kind of Connection to everyone in Highstorm. He even says that he does not know where they are, only Ishar and most likely only because of Ishars actions (i.e. Ishar cursing him out).

We have no evidence of Stormfather being able to even detect Heralds, however we know other Heralds are tied together and can sometimes feel each other dying (if in extreme circumstances), to me that means that this particular piece of evidence points much strongly away from Stormfather than towards.

5 hours ago, mdross81 said:

No other scenes linking frost to the Stormfather. In addition to the times when Ideals are sworn and when Ishar makes the glyph, here are the other mentions of frost:

• Szeth’s clothes are frosted twice and the air is frosted once in the WoK prologue - each time it’s when he Lashes something (himself, the big chunk of wall, the balcony)
• WoK 56 - Oathbringer appears in Dalinar’s hand “steaming and frosted”
• WoK 59: first time Kal intentionally breathes in Stormlight from a sphere leaves his fingers crispy with frost: then frost crystallizes on his arm when he infuses a stone and sticks it to the wall
• WoK 62: frost crystallized on Kal’s arm as he uses Stormlight to heal an arrow wound
• OB 60 - Kal comes down out of flying in the highstorm crusted in frost (this one could be storm or just temperature related)
• RoW 6 - frost crackles on Kal’s uniform as he uses a great deal of Stormlight to heal a wound during a fight with Leshwi
• RoW I-4 - Moash is practicing with Jezrien’s Honorblade and thinks it’s inferior to live Shardblades because  “It couldn’t change shape, and cost far more Stormlight to use, often crusting his clothing with frost when he used it too quickly.”

Someone on Discord said it’s just Stormlight, and I agree that each instance seems to involve large amounts of Stormlight used very quickly. And in every instance other than the one in the prologue I get how the Stormlight is being used. I’m still left wondering why a Herald dying would cause a large amount of Stormlight to ripple through the Stormfather.

Thanks for checking on that, useful to know.
Honestly I have no idea either. Even if it was fake created by Ishar I would only guess that conduit to Spiritual is opened through Oathpact that moves the one that died to Braize, and since they are all linked to Oathpact they all get some Stormlight directly in them. In battle they would not notice, as they are full of Stormlight anyway thanks to Honorblades, but outside of it it could be noticable. Pure speculation of course.
 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is a fair point, I will give you that.

I will concede the possibility of such power being possible.

I'll allow that it might be possible, but I find it highly unlikely.

Thanks for allowing for the points.
I agree that they are quite speculative, but that is part of fun of these discussion to me

[+mdross81]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Honestly I have no idea either. Even if it was fake created by Ishar I would only guess that conduit to Spiritual is opened through Oathpact that moves the one that died to Braize, and since they are all linked to Oathpact they all get some Stormlight directly in them. In battle they would not notice, as they are full of Stormlight anyway thanks to Honorblades, but outside of it it could be noticable. Pure speculation of course.

As I’ve thought about it more, I’ve come up with a possible explanation for the ripple of Stormlight through the SF when the Herald dies (though it’s based on this entity actually being the SF).

Could be that the Herald’s soul is essentially Lashed to Braize when they die (Spiritual Adhesion?). Whatever the mechanics, it seems plausible enough that transporting the Herald’s soul to Braize requires the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly and the Stormlight comes from the storm, or from the Spiritual Realm via the storm/SF. Alternatively, we see an effect on the SF simply because he is a remnant of Honor who was a party to the Oathpact.

This would explain the frost because whenever we see it, it seems to accompany the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly.

One of these days we’ll get specifics on the mechanics of the Oathpact right?

[therunner]

13 hours ago, mdross81 said:

As I’ve thought about it more, I’ve come up with a possible explanation for the ripple of Stormlight through the SF when the Herald dies (though it’s based on this entity actually being the SF).

Could be that the Herald’s soul is essentially Lashed to Braize when they die (Spiritual Adhesion?). Whatever the mechanics, it seems plausible enough that transporting the Herald’s soul to Braize requires the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly and the Stormlight comes from the storm, or from the Spiritual Realm via the storm/SF. Alternatively, we see an effect on the SF simply because he is a remnant of Honor who was a party to the Oathpact.

This would explain the frost because whenever we see it, it seems to accompany the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly.

One of these days we’ll get specifics on the mechanics of the Oathpact right?

A fair explanation and it would make sense, provided it is a Stormfather.

As far as mechanics of Oathpact, I have slight hope for book 5, but I fear that we will learn majority in back five books, as Heralds are meant to be more of a focus for it.