[Stormlight 5] The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory: The Official Stormfaker's Support Group

[Quantus he/him]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm aware, but the Everstorm itself is red.

Missed your point, sorry.  And it's a decent one, damn. Maybe since the physical Everstorm ended up being Connected to the Physical Realm through the a bunch of Singers with enlightened Spren giving them Stormform instead of a Radiant Bond, it might not yet have any reason to manifest as Corrupted prior to both of those thresholds.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

i disagree that this post and the previous stormfaker discussions have been built in reverse as you say. there is evidence, a damn lot of it as one can see from tekno's summary; how heavily you weigh that evidence and its proposed explanations is a matter of personal opinion,

When the "evidence" is mostly infered and unquantifiable it's not evidence.

9 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

if it looks like a stormfaker, swims like a stormfaker, and quacks like a stormfaker, there is probably some merit to the stormfaker theory

Correction: If there is evidence there is probably some merit.

13 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

also, in this particular case, i don't think it is at all strange to make assumptions without a ton of definitive evidence - the Stormfather is off in this prologue man

Well let's examine the first premise of the Stormfaker theory, that the Stormfather in the prologue isn't the real Stromfather. Do you have any concrete evidence for it?

12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Missed your point, sorry.  And it's a decent one, damn. Maybe since the physical Everstorm ended up being Connected to the Physical Realm through the a bunch of Singers with enlightened Spren giving them Stormform instead of a Radiant Bond, it might not yet have any reason to manifest as Corrupted prior to both of those thresholds.

I don't see how that would corrupt it.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

47 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When the "evidence" is mostly infered and unquantifiable it's not evidence.

Correction: If there is evidence there is probably some merit.

Well let's examine the first premise of the Stormfaker theory, that the Stormfather in the prologue isn't the real Stromfather. Do you have any concrete evidence for it?

please consider again that it is The Stormfaker Theory, not The Stormfaker Identity Confirmed!  Its a theory, there is no concrete evidence, but evidence can simply point in a certain direction without being damning.

as well - forgive me for speaking for the entire Stormfaker camp, but I think we are fully aware that, yes, this may just be the Stormfather, but there are a lot of things that are readily explained by someone interfering .

Edited May 13, 2022 by Anomander Rake

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

please consider again that it is The Stormfaker Theory, not The Stormfaker Identity Confirmed!  Its a theory, there is no concrete evidence, but evidence can simply point in a certain direction without being damning.

Please consider that theory means that there is evidence but it is unconfirmed. If there is no evidence it's a hunch or a guess, perhapse the term headcanon would be more accurate.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Please consider that theory means that there is evidence but it is unconfirmed. If there is no evidence it's a hunch or a guess, perhapse the term headcanon would be more accurate.

in my humble opinion, there is evidence, it is unconfirmed, so thanks for your support of the theory.  Enjoy your headcanon, though

[Frustration]

Just now, Anomander Rake said:

in my humble opinion, there is evidence, it is unconfirmed, so thanks for your support of the theory.  Enjoy your headcanon, though

That's the same kind of evidence they use for flat earth.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's the same kind of evidence they use for flat earth.

???

please, with the same degree as the proofs that disprove flat earth theories, disprove all the points on teknos list.  lame point, man

*edit* unconfirmed =/= disproven

Edited May 13, 2022 by Anomander Rake

[Frustration]

Just now, Anomander Rake said:

???

please, with the same degree as the proofs that disprove flat earth theories, disprove all the points on teknos list.  lame point, man

I have but I'll repeat myself.

1. Heralds cannot sense each other suffer non-permenant death. Kalak was still alive but none of the others Ishar included could tell he was alive. To say otherwise is to directly contradict the books. The only other individuals who could possibly tell if a Herald died are the fused(Highly unlikely) Which could not be there as they were bound to Braize, Odium, who can barely connect to people with the Everstorm, and does not have the guile, nor the personality to pull this off, Culitvation, who acts nothing like the Stormfather in the prologue, and Honor, who died and his cognitive shadow fused with the Stormfather.
2. Ishar did not have his blade at this time. The Unmade only recently appeared in Shinovar per Taravangian, and disreguarding that his experiments with spren only started a few months before RoW. So him hijacking the Visions is out of the question.
3. The Stormfather would definatly have noticed someone hijacking the visions, so him doing nothing about it is weird. Additionally Whoever Gavilar is speaking to has the ability to bring people into the visions, and end them on command. The only being we know with the power to do that is the Stormfather.
4. The Stormfather shows the ability to see the future, something Ishar definatly cannot do. But we know the Stormfather can due to his comments to Kaladin before Szeth attacked in WoR.
5. The Stormfather obeyed Gavilar, something Ishar would never do.
6. How would Ishar have even formed a Connection with Gavilar without touching him? And how would he maintain it? Every other time a Bondsmith has used Connection it has been temporary, why is this the exception?

[teknopathetic he/him]

@Frustration in any twist, the author will not explicitly state all the details of that twist directly at first. A twist, by definition, required hidden information or making the reader come to conclusions or assumptions that are not correct. In order to unmask a twist early, you a have to link details that seem unrelated or you need to read between the lines for patterns and implications.
 

Many many readers have sensed an issue or inconsistency with the Stormfather. If you think that someone is lying to you, you have to go back and find evidence that proves you have been lied to. That’s how finding deception must work. You can’t expect à lier to tell you they are lying. 
 

I understand this will never meet your standards for proof or epistemological philosophy. I respect your option, but I don’t find your epistemology constructive when it comes to us in this group. Perhaps you consider other forum threads if this is something you aren’t willing to consider. 
 

We very well could be wrong, but I am not sure you would ever say we were right based on our line of inquiry. 
 

I am open to other explanations other than Ishar, but I want this be a constructive place to consider the identity of the Italic Voice
 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Anomander Rake he/him]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have but I'll repeat myself.

1. Heralds cannot sense each other suffer non-permenant death. Kalak was still alive but none of the others Ishar included could tell he was alive. To say otherwise is to directly contradict the books. The only other individuals who could possibly tell if a Herald died are the fused(Highly unlikely) Which could not be there as they were bound to Braize, Odium, who can barely connect to people with the Everstorm, and does not have the guile, nor the personality to pull this off, Culitvation, who acts nothing like the Stormfather in the prologue, and Honor, who died and his cognitive shadow fused with the Stormfather.
2. Ishar did not have his blade at this time. The Unmade only recently appeared in Shinovar per Taravangian, and disreguarding that his experiments with spren only started a few months before RoW. So him hijacking the Visions is out of the question.
3. The Stormfather would definatly have noticed someone hijacking the visions, so him doing nothing about it is weird. Additionally Whoever Gavilar is speaking to has the ability to bring people into the visions, and end them on command. The only being we know with the power to do that is the Stormfather.
4. The Stormfather shows the ability to see the future, something Ishar definatly cannot do. But we know the Stormfather can due to his comments to Kaladin before Szeth attacked in WoR.
5. The Stormfather obeyed Gavilar, something Ishar would never do.
6. How would Ishar have even formed a Connection with Gavilar without touching him? And how would he maintain it? Every other time a Bondsmith has used Connection it has been temporary, why is this the exception?

1. In the same vein, if this is the Stormfather proper, we must assume he can sense the deaths of heralds. Why did he not freak when Jez died?  The absence of that from the books is a big reason i'm team faker, as if SF can sense them it would seem extremely disingenuous to not bring it up. Spoiler > Quote to manage length

Spoiler

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

“But—”

Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors.

Then, the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized.

“What?” Gavilar said, backing up. “What happened?”

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

This does not seem like something whoever it is had control over / was aware of and ready for.  If this is Stormfather, i simply cannot rectify his lack of reaction to Jez's death / Dalinar's awareness of the SF bugging out.

2. Perhaps there is a connection with Gav that he does not have with Dalinar.  We've got 6 books to go

3. In your search for absolute proof, how can you say for sure SF would have noticed his visions being hijacked?  Can you tell me exactly how the magic works so in that he would be made aware?  If there is a reason for which I am not aware, lmk

4. Not sure what part in particular you are referring to, but working theory is Gav is still speaking to SF at points, so this is moot

5. Would he really abandon a lie he willingly went into for pride?  No

6. IDFK, we no next to nothing about connection compared to its existing mechanics (in my belief).

Edited May 13, 2022 by Anomander Rake
clarity

[+mdross81 he/him]

Gotta say I’m with @Anomander Rake and @teknopathetic on this one @Frustration. The statement that the entity purporting to be the Stormfather in the SA5 prologue is not, in fact, the Stormfather is enough to constitute a theory. And @teknopathetichas undeniably offered a substantial amount of evidence in support of that theory. Is it a full fledged, complex theory? Maybe not because it’s a draft and we don’t have much more to go off of at this point. It’s more like a basic theory designed to spark discussion and speculation.

As @Anomander Rake said, you may disagree with the persuasiveness of the evidence, but you can’t seriously say there is no evidence for the premise that the entity we see interacting with Gavilar is not the Stormfather.

I’m not nearly as active on the Shard as you @Frustration (maybe no one is?) but I’ve been around long enough and read enough of your comments to develop an opinion on your style of discourse. I don’t know you and so wouldn’t presume that you intend this, but wanted to let you know that your terse comments simply poking holes in others’ theories often come across as rudely dismissive. And I think they push what should be fun discussion and theorizing about stories and characters we all love into the realm of argument.

So maybe we cool it on the semantics about  whether or not something constitutes a theory and just let folks have a discussion.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Anyone here think it might be Nohadon?

Why? Well TWoK seems to be directly related to  Bondsmiths and Herlads. Both Gavilar and Dalinar read the hell out of that thing, and both of them had a strong connection to the book itself. That book, and the words inside, are at the core of all of this. Without TWoK, would Gavilar and Dalinar have been on the paths they were? And who wrote that book - Nohadon. If the words to make new Heralds is in that book, then could Nohadon have intentionally done that? Could there be something up with the book itself? There is even a moment in a flashback where Jasnah is reading the Way of Kings and Dalinar even says he sees a weird glowing light, which hints that there was some investiture or overly strong connection being formed there. 

On Nohadon

• Nohadon may or may not have sent a vision to Dalinar that one time. If it was more than just "passive connection", then there is some evidence that Nohadon has his own vision thing going on. 
• People have long suspected that Nohadon might not be the full definition of dead cosmere-speaking. This is because the Nohadon in the vision seems to lifelike and alive.
• Though not confirmed, people suspect Nohadon is a Bondsmith. If true, he could have rigged something up at some point, or perhaps their manipulation of connection results in some wacky post-death shenanigan's. 
• Could there be something up with the book itself? 
• I always thought it was just petty, but Odium zaps Dalinar's copy of the book during the Battle of Theylena. Is that just Odium being a brat, or perhaps the book absorbing the lightening, or was there more to that scene. 

If we need Gavilar to be connected to the person sending the fake messages, then Gavilar reading TWOK's may have built that connection bridge sufficiently. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[+mdross81 he/him]

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Anyone here think it might be Nohadon? Nohadon may or may not have sent a vision to Dalinar that one time and people have long suspected that Nohadon might not be the full definition of dead cosmere-speaking. 

I hadn’t considered Nohadon. Upon doing so now, I’m skeptical. Mainly because I get somewhat malevolent vibes from the idea of an entity that’s impersonating the SF and manipulating poor, stupid Gavilar. Whereas Nohadon has always come across as a good guy. But it’d be a heck of a twist.

One line that I keep coming back to is this one:

Quote

I warned you, Gavilar, the Stormfather said. This is my failure as much as yours. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought…your family…

The end there: I thought … your family …

What do y’all make of it? My initial thought was that maybe this had something to do with the idea that Navani and Jasnah would eventually be important players. But now I’m wondering if instead it’s a call back to Gavilar’s ancestor Sadees the Sunmaker who led the overthrow of the Hierocracy and questioned the ardents’ claims of prophecies from the Almighty. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

17 hours ago, mdross81 said:

The end there: I thought … your family …

What do y’all make of it? My initial thought was that maybe this had something to do with the idea that Navani and Jasnah would eventually be important players. But now I’m wondering if instead it’s a call back to Gavilar’s ancestor Sadees the Sunmaker who led the overthrow of the Hierocracy and questioned the ardents’ claims of prophecies from the Almighty. 

I agree it is strange. Do the Kholin's have a unique bloodline? Sure the Sunmaker almost  "united them" but then so did the Shin that one time. Oh crem. I forgot about the Unite Them voice:

Who isn't in on the Tanavast Zoom Call?

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[+mdross81 he/him]

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I agree it is strange. Do the Kholin's have a unique bloodline? Sure the Sunmaker almost  "united them"

Though I know this may be blasphemous in the Stormfaker support group thread, the idea that this entity chose Gavilar because his ancestor stood up to the Vorin church, coupled with the entity’s disappointment that Gavilar still bought into Vorin doctrine rooted in the lies of Aharietiam, AND Dalinar’s eventual willingness to go against the Vorin church, does lend more credence in my mind to the idea that the entity in the prologue actually is the Stormfather.

[teknopathetic he/him]

9 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Though I know this may be blasphemous in the Stormfaker support group thread, the idea that this entity chose Gavilar because his ancestor stood up to the Vorin church, coupled with the entity’s disappointment that Gavilar still bought into Vorin doctrine rooted in the lies of Aharietiam, AND Dalinar’s eventual willingness to go against the Vorin church, does lend more credence in my mind to the idea that the entity in the prologue actually is the Stormfather.

Interesting point! Thought the Stormfather doesn't let his hatred of the Church slip with Dalinar (as far as I remember). But I suppose the Stormfather Believers think that the Stormfather is intentionally changing his entire M.O. 100% 

Ishar is also called The Priest and is associated with Piety and Guidance, so this hatred of Religion could be a herald malady as well. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

@Frustration in any twist, the author will not explicitly state all the details of that twist directly at first. A twist, by definition, required hidden information or making the reader come to conclusions or assumptions that are not correct. 

I think that the Stormfather being able to lie is a much bigger twist than anything that could be done here. Additionally Ishar impersonating the Stormfather requires the subversion of pre-established information, which is not a good twist.

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I am open to other expiations other than Ishar, but I want this be a constructive place to consider the identity of the Italic Voice

I would suggest looking towards the Unmade then.

53 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

1. In the same vein, if this is the Stormfather proper, we must assume he can sense the deaths of heralds. Why did he not freak when Jez died?  The absence of that from the books is a big reason i'm team faker, as if SF can sense them it would seem extremely disingenuous to not bring it up. Spoiler > Quote to manage length

  Reveal hidden contents

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

“But—”

Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors.

Then, the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized.

“What?” Gavilar said, backing up. “What happened?”

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

This does not seem like something whoever it is had control over / was aware of and ready for.  If this is Stormfather, i simply cannot rectify his lack of reaction to Jez's death / Dalinar's awareness of the SF bugging out.

What would such a scene add that the scene with Ash didn't already accomplish?

It would just show us the same thing again.

57 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

2. Perhaps there is a connection with Gav that he does not have with Dalinar.  We've got 6 books to go

You are starting with your conclusion here.

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

3. In your search for absolute proof, how can you say for sure SF would have noticed his visions being hijacked?  Can you tell me exactly how the magic works so in that he would be made aware?  If there is a reason for which I am not aware, lmk

He can hear what happens in the visions, therefore, if Gavilar is talking to someone, who is not part of the visons he would notice. Additionally he would notice if his visions were being ended by someone other than him.

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

5. Would he really abandon a lie he willingly went into for pride?  No

How would Gavilar know the Stormfather would obey him in the first place? And if the Stormfather was the one who initially started obeying how would Ishar know to replicate that?

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

Gotta say I’m with @Anomander Rake and @teknopathetic on this one @Frustration. The statement that the entity purporting to be the Stormfather in the SA5 prologue is not, in fact, the Stormfather is enough to constitute a theory. And @teknopathetichas undeniably offered a substantial amount of evidence in support of that theory. Is it a full fledged, complex theory? Maybe not because it’s a draft and we don’t have much more to go off of at this point. It’s more like a basic theory designed to spark discussion and speculation.

That's not how theories work. Sorry, the science enthusiast in me just will not allow speculation to be called theory.

From google

Quote

Theory

noun

 

1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

   "Darwin's theory of evolution"

 

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

I’m not nearly as active on the Shard as you @Frustration (maybe no one is?) but I’ve been around long enough and read enough of your comments to develop an opinion on your style of discourse. I don’t know you and so wouldn’t presume that you intend this, but wanted to let you know that your terse comments simply poking holes in others’ theories often come across as rudely dismissive. And I think they push what should be fun discussion and theorizing about stories and characters we all love into the realm of argument.

I am aware I can come across as harsh, I honestly am not trying to. I try to find the nicest way to phrase something while still making my point. However interacting with other people has long been a weakness of mine, so fogive me if I mess up.

Tips and pointers are welcome.

[teknopathetic he/him]

45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

You are starting with your conclusion here.

That's not how theories work. Sorry, the science enthusiast in me just will not allow speculation to be called theory.

I am aware I can come across as harsh, I honestly am not trying to. I try to find the nicest way to phrase something while still making my point. However interacting with other people has long been a weakness of mine, so fogive me if I mess up.

Tips and pointers are welcome.

Hey @Frustration 

 "Theory" and "Logic" are not always the same from context to context. Specifically, logical scrutiny is going to follow different norms between Science and Literature. Heck, even scientific fields have vastly different definitions of evidence (take the definition of "acceptable statistical chance" between Medical Guidelines vs Particle Physics. They are VASTLY different when defining what is likely "evidence")

We know, as theorizers, that certain elements are being deliberately hidden from us by Brandon for narrative reasons. Because there is explicit deception on the part of the author, we will never have all the premises and bits of evidence necessary to prove a twist. We even known that some elements may never be explicitly explained. We are not operating in a world where all the details are extant or provable. We are not in a particle collider. 

We are absolutely rational agents if we utilize both inductive and deductive reasoning when searching for "intentional deception" or "literary device". The author has intentionally seeded the stories with twists, and there are different logical tools to find things like that. 

1. It is rational to gather evidence bit by bit and to determine what consistent statements follow from that evidence. However, we know the author at times will intentionally hide, twist, or misrepresent the evidence, so this will never be satisfactory. 
2. it is  rational to start with a statement considered true as presented to us by the Author, and to examine the evidence/premises that are needed to support that conclusion. This is actually quite useful, as we know the author will intentionally make us believe things that are later shown to be false. We should not always trust the author as he is known to be intentionally deceptive. 

If you know there is a high potential for deception, you take the statement they give you and you rip apart the evidence they have provided. As the Italic Voice is being explicitly deceptive to Gavilar, and since this is extremely new behavior compared to the previous 4 books, I am going into it with skepticism. This is the perfect opportunity for an author to deceive the reader. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by teknopathetic

[therunner he/him]

I will put in my five cents as well

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Heralds cannot sense each other suffer non-permenant death. Kalak was still alive but none of the others Ishar included could tell he was alive. To say otherwise is to directly contradict the books. The only other individuals who could possibly tell if a Herald died are the fused(Highly unlikely) Which could not be there as they were bound to Braize, Odium, who can barely connect to people with the Everstorm, and does not have the guile, nor the personality to pull this off, Culitvation, who acts nothing like the Stormfather in the prologue, and Honor, who died and his cognitive shadow fused with the Stormfather.

Stormfather is also unable to sense death of Herald, in fact he did not even react to permanent death, even though Heralds did.  So whatever connection is there is stronger in between Heralds themselves then between a Herald and Stormfather. The reaction of entity then goes against what we know of Stormfather, hence supports it could be something else.
It is entirely possible that in prologue they did not know if Kalak died simply because the sensation of death of another Herald could be lost in the battle, if it is not particularly overpowering, but this is admittedly a conjecture.

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. Ishar did not have his blade at this time. The Unmade only recently appeared in Shinovar per Taravangian, and disreguarding that his experiments with spren only started a few months before RoW. So him hijacking the Visions is out of the question.

Ishar was also able to Bondsmith/manipulate connection prior to becoming a Herald, see events on Ashyn and Syls comments in RoW. Also, even if due to Honor and his restrictions he could Bondsmith only through Honorblade, these restrictions are falling away (see Dalinar's experience, Ishars experiments, Melishi and lines), so he might be regaining his previous abilities, even if Honorblade makes him stronger. The effects in prologue are relatively weak (voices, slight physical manifestation, detecting Seon), and one of those (seeing an object in the building) is explicitly something unbonded Stormfather cannot do.
The biggest feat would be sending a vision, however we don't know how where the visions made, where are they stored, so we cannot make any judgements on if someone closely connected to Honor (like Bondsmith Herald) would not be able to hijack them.
Again a conjecture, but nothing that would go against previously established information.

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

3. The Stormfather would definatly have noticed someone hijacking the visions, so him doing nothing about it is weird. Additionally Whoever Gavilar is speaking to has the ability to bring people into the visions, and end them on command. The only being we know with the power to do that is the Stormfather.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

He can hear what happens in the visions, therefore, if Gavilar is talking to someone, who is not part of the visons he would notice. Additionally he would notice if his visions were being ended by someone other than him.

Not necessarily, we have at least one example (maybe two) of someone being in a vision or changing part of vision without Stormfather (or even a shard) noticing. The fully confirmed is of course Lift, who is able to infiltrate visions and unless she reveals herself the entities are unaware. Second (more tentative) would be Nohadon vision, it starts with 'regular' vision but then becomes something else, and Stormfather was not aware of that (if I remember correctly).
So in fact Stormfather would not necessarily notice.
Ending the visions is the better counterargument, that would require the entity to be able to tap into the same source as Stormfather, which might not be impossible considering what we have seen of connection manipulation. Of course, as I stated before, we have no idea of how the visions are implemented and where are they stored, so little speculation can be done.
 

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

4. The Stormfather shows the ability to see the future, something Ishar definatly cannot do. But we know the Stormfather can due to his comments to Kaladin before Szeth attacked in WoR.

True, but someone in touch with Connection could most likely do that. If Dalinar can connect Kaladin with aspect of Tien, connecting yourself or someone else with part of their future aspect could be possible, as spiritual realm is timeless.
Alternatively, there are Death-rattles, and someone with Connection powers could get more out of that.
Finally, there are also enlightened spren, who can provide visions of future.
So there are multiple ways Ishar (or someone else) could obtain information on possible future.

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

5. The Stormfather obeyed Gavilar, something Ishar would never do.

Do you know Ishar that well? Why inconsistent behavior of Stormfather is simply 'revelation' of new facet, but Ishar would have to act consistently with what we think we know?
Additionally, while Ishar is the most popular option, he is not the only one for the Stormfaker theory.

 

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

6. How would Ishar have even formed a Connection with Gavilar without touching him? And how would he maintain it? Every other time a Bondsmith has used Connection it has been temporary, why is this the exception?

How did Dalinar form connection between Kaladin and Tien? He used his connection to Stormfather to 'touch' Kaladin through Highstorm, and then used Kaladins connection to Tien to connect him with his aspect in Spiritual.
Similarly, Ishar could for example piggyback on connection to Stormfather through remains of Oathpact, and then use connection of Stormfather and Gavilar to 'touch' Gavilar.


And on the theory part
 

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's not how theories work. Sorry, the science enthusiast in me just will not allow speculation to be called theory.

From google

Theory

noun

 

1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

   "Darwin's theory of evolution"

You create a theory to explain something your current model does not. People did not start reading the prologue thinking 'I am sure Gavilar is not talking to Stormfather, let me gather evidence', instead people read the prologue and some of them thought 'Huh, that is weird. There is stuff happening and being done that seems to go against what we know, how can we explain that?' and the explanation multiple independent people came up with was that some of the time the entity in prologue is not Stormfather, and they mostly point to the same evidence.

So no, I don't think anyone here started with the conclusion and then went looking for evidence, in fact it was quite clearly the other way around, so yes this is a theory. You may not consider the evidence to be sufficient, and that is your right of course, but that alone does not really mean much.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

I'm not entirely convinced that the Stormfather in the prologue was fake, but I certainly think it is a possibility, and if it is so then I agree Ishar is the most likely individual to have the power and motivation to do so, including the sensing of a Herald dying like Ash did with her father. I don't think this is a crack theory, but a fully viable one, regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

[alder24]

16 hours ago, mdross81 said:

That camp writes off the odd behavior/language of the Stormfather in this prologue as being part of a rough alpha draft. 

Not at all, at least not me. It can be simply explained by SF changing after realizing his mistakes with Gavilar. But I still think there is something not quite fitting with that SF.

 

 

The differences between Italics and caps could be easily explained when we look where caps appears - just at the very end of their conversation. At this point SF realized his mistakes and could begin breaking connection between him and Gavilar, knowing he's the wrong person, and knowing death was coming for him. And even fearing of what's coming so soon after Herald just died - it was after that we've finnaly seen caps. It also could be easily explained as SF expressing more human side of him in italics and more Storm one in caps - as we see sometimes SF behaves more like human even before bonding with Dalinar (relations with Eshonai, all of them). SF and Gavilar have probably months or even years of communication behind them, so it's not surprising that they talk more openly. Also SF in Prologue do not like to being ordered by Gavilar to watch the door - said in italics "I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar." - something that definitely real SF would said. Also just look at how SF is talking to Dalinar at the beginning of OB, just few days after bonding - he gives a lot of information, expresses his feelings, and answers most of the questions Dalinar asked - the same behavior is seen with Gavilar. Bond was very fresh and would probably still not affected him and his personality to that extent. SF is much bigger spren than Syl, he do not needs bond to exist and remain thinking and feeling in physical realm. But why did SF talk with Gavilar before bonding and with Dalinar didn't? Well he answered it right at the end - he made a mistake, and he promised to do it differently next time - which he did with Dalinar - completely consistent. Maybe even that's why SF is so strict about misquoting him with Dalinar as he don't want to repeat his mistakes with Gavilar? I'll admit, there is something not quite Stormfatherly in Gavilar's SF. But much less then you suggest. Mostly about almost open statement of making Gavilar a new "...Herald" and few other surrounding it at the end of the prologue. Also when he felt Herald dieing there were lightnings coming out of him - very stormy indeed. And the sound he made - "Then, the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized." Would someone who was faking it be able to maintain the image while feeling that amount of pain to cry out of agony and make it sounded like a thunder at the same time? 

 

And I've checked my newsletter transcript and as I've pointed out in my previous post there were only two sentences spoken by SF in italics - just after Herald death. Those sentences are very fate sealing "I'm done with you and your stupidity" rather than sudden appearece of real SF. If all of the italics was someone else then why would he just said Goodbye like an conversation ending? How could he not react to Gavilar talking to him/himself constantly in so suspicious manner? Why would he even say anything at that point? He didn't say a word during or after the vision! All of this points me to conclusion that different fonts do not determine who is speaking as it just doesn't make any sense to separate conversation in this way. Therefore I think that argument about different fonts should not be taken as prove for anything as it creates more problems with Stormfaker theory then resolves. If there was just few more sentences spoken in caps here and there than that would make much more sense to analyze the differences and could make the argument for it. 

16 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Thanks for the long response. I might need to break up my reply into a few posts because I just cant sit down for long enough to go through it all =)

1. Ishar's Insanity:
I think the open ambiguity about Ishar's madness timeline plays to the Stormfaker Theory's advantage. Up until recently, the heralds were open to the idea of Ishar being sane. It appears Ishar can be absolutely bonker-balls in Tu'kar but still manage to hold it together when interacting with the other heralds. If this is so, then Ishar could be insane but managing to hold it together when talking to Gavilar as well. I am not willing to believe the heralds are magically unable to see that the Tu'kar God King persona is not full crazy-town banana-pants. There must be more here. 

Whatever is wrong with Ishar, the evidence from WoR and Edgedancer make it seem like Ishar is able to hold down more than one persona depending on who he is interacting with. It seems extremely unlikely that Ishar was acting like the God King of Tu'kar of Dalinar's interaction when Ishar met with Nale, so this to me is evidence that the Ishar story is more complicated than we think. It is also possible that Ishar recently took a downward spiral in  the past few years, or that the Tu'kar madness is yet another bluff. Who knows, but since Ishar raises more questions than closed-doors, this actually helps the Stormfaker theory. 

II. Honorblade
I don't believe Ishar needs an Honourblade to trick Gavilar. In my reading, the Stormfather truly is sending the visions, so we don't need any connection mumbo-jumbo with Honourblades at all

The Stormfaker is

• Acting as a voice 
• Sometimes manifesting an image in some way
• able to see a Seon coming

So to me, these are not incredible feats. If Brandon wanted to make it work, he could choose from: However Ashyn Bondsmithing Worked, Inborn Herald Abilities, Fabrials, Old Magic, Purelake Fishymancing, Off-World Magic, Ancient Artefacts, Cooperative Spren, Basic Connection manipulation, Sleepless Shenanigans, Cognitive Realm Manipulation, or something else. I think there is enough materiel of war to make something work. And as Ishar was a Bondsmith well before coming to Roshar or even needing to interact with the Stormfather, I think he likely would know how to do something like this if he indeed wanted to do it. 

EDIT: As well, we also have some issues with how the Stormfather is managing to do this. While we do see the Stormfather able to do Booming Voices whenever he wants and froma  distance, he doesnt seem to have refined communication skills outside of storms until he has bonded Dalinar. It isn't until the Stormfather bonds Dalinar that we start getting more mental back-and-forth. So why can the Stormfather communicate in italcis without a bond or without there even being a Storm? The Stormfather can BOLD-TALK without a Storm it seems, but italics? Not so much until Dalinar is bonded. 

As well, can the Stormfather see inside buildings before bonding Dalinar? I feel like I was led to believe the Stormfather couldn't (kind of like the mists), but maybe I am wrong here. When we rode with the Stormfather, I dont think he could see into any buildings. And if that is the case, how is the Stormfather seeing a Seon before it enters the room?

III. Oathpact'

Sorry that I misremembered the Nale/Ishar thing. I thought when Ishar fought Dalinar there was a mention of this, but I very well could be wrong. I will go back and check, but for now I trust you are correct and that i misremembered. 

And this is the part of the theory that is the most open to criticism. When Jezrian waits for Kelek, h says "we were not certain if you had survived". However, we dont know the timeline here. The group knew that Taln fell and then, at some point, they abandoned their blades. We don't know when that occurred or if they even waited for Kelek's battle to finish. It seems like Kelek was fighting some clean-up battles AFTER the was had been won (whatever that means). Maybe Ishar left the group before Kelek was done because it really didnt matter to wait for Kelek. I admit this is the largest hole, but as we know nothing of Ishar's timeline or nothing on what information he was sharing, this is still open. It is possible Ishar had hoped someone would die and was ready to forswear the Oathpact as soon as that was accomplished, leaving the others to figure out amongst themselves what happened with Kelek. 

Random thought, but part of me has always been suspicious that Taln died. I low-key have wondered if Ishar did him in. 

IV. The Stormfather

The cannon Stormather's personality is so consistent when talking with Syl, Dalinar, Eshonia, and Kal, and that to me is proof that the Stormfather does have a consistent personality. Why would the Stormfather show kindness to Eshoni if the Stormfather was actually more like the italic-voice with Gavilar? I feel like the italics voice would have said "Sucks to suck, Eshoni". The Stormfather during the events of WoR showed true kindness to Eshoni, and in a time and place that no one but himself would ever know had happened- can we imagine the Italics voice doing that? Are we supposed to believe that because a herald died, that the Italics voice learned the value of altrusitc kindness?

I feel like people are saying that because the Stormfather has MORE Honour in him that this means the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, but nothing about how he acted with Gavilar seemed honourable at all. Wouldn't the Stormfather be even more locked-in to being honourable if he is closer to the intent of Honour these days than before? Doesn't rumbling at being misquoted seem more consistent with being a piece of Honour than operating through lies and deception? What about the Italics-Voice seems like a boon from absorbing the shard of oaths? 

I am all for the Stormfather growing as a person and even being able to change his motivations, but the italics-voice was way way more than a change in motivations; it was a change is complete ethos. To me, the Stormfather was aloof in TWoK, slowly grew to respect Kaladin, slowly grew to respect Eshoni, and decided to trust Dalinar based on what he had recently seen in terms of what Syl and her gang were trying to do (mixed in with some of his connection to Honour's wishes). The Italics-Voice has no place in any of this. 

 

"It appears Ishar can be absolutely bonker-balls in Tu'kar but still manage to hold it together when interacting with the other heralds. If this is so, then Ishar could be insane but managing to hold it together when talking to Gavilar as well." 

Nothing like we've seen before. Even Ash when rescuing Taln could not hold herself down from her maddens driven urge to destroy her images and deny her God like status. Believing Ishar could do it so well with Nale just year before RoW is not convincing at all.

 

"If Brandon wanted to make it work" 

This is brilliant, that explains every theory that could be make. So let's not go that way. The only way for Ishar to do things like in Prologue is via connection manipulation, Bondsmith abilities - with Honorblade it is easy, however most evidence suggests that he did not have it at that time yet. Only other reasonable argument is that he was using his Ashyn-Bondsmith abilities which we don't know anything about, even if he still possessed them after arrival on Roshar. 

 

"As well, can the Stormfather see inside buildings before bonding Dalinar?" 

Not in a Storm. Valid point. But for Stormfather being able to send visions to someone, he would need to establish connection with that person - which could be enough to see around that person if needed. 

 

"Random thought, but part of me has always been suspicious that Taln died. I low-key have wondered if Ishar did him in."

I was always wondering why they did not wait for Kalak if they didn't know if he survived. This whole plan would collapse if Kalak had died as well. But that is a huge speculation, and it was clearly establish that Taln dies very often during battle. 

 

"Why would the Stormfather show kindness to Eshoni if the Stormfather was actually more like the italic-voice with Gavilar?" 

The same voice that is talking about downsides of immortality and is expressing lots of human emotions? Like Dalinar's SF? Hmmm

 

"I feel like people are saying that because the Stormfather has MORE Honour in him that this means the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, but nothing about how he acted with Gavilar seemed honourable at all." 

Honor is a very broadly defined concept, even Honorsprens define it differently among themselves. The only sure thing is that it is nesesery to keep their promises at all cost. For me saying that Stormfather holds pieces of Honor means that he is different than regular Sprens and is hugely connected to Honor which allows him to feel Heralds death. 

 

"and decided to trust Dalinar" 

Did he? He did not want to bond with him but seconds later did it and still had problems with Dalinar during OB like when he was used to open Oathgate. I would not say SF fully trusted Dalinar up until Battle of Thaylen. The italics voice was also quite trusting in Gavilar's intentions as was very surprised when told that Gavilar would give up on Braize. Naive even as he was witnessing Gavilar plotting and scheming all the time. 

 

16 hours ago, Quantus said:

I cant be the only person to think the spren of Everstorm is the most obvious Fake Stormfather, right?

I don't think there is yet any Everstorm spren, or at least sapient one, as it just appeared. And we know Sprens are shaped by human/singers/others perception. So there probably would not be enough time for that perception to manifest in form of a spren or to shape it. But maybe that spren is pure Odium essence so it doesn't need perception at all. However this spren is awfully quiet. I would rather choose Odium himself as the Stormfaker rather than spren as Gavilar was traveling to Braize and could establish connection with Odium. But on the other hand SF was very surprised and terrified that Gavilar would just give up on Braize immediately of which real Odium or his spren would be very fond. SF's reaction to "give it to me now" is easily explained as that was his very first words spoken with true internet - few sentences later explained even by SF as "it's not the Words that matters" or something like that. 

 

11 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

1. In the same vein, if this is the Stormfather proper, we must assume he can sense the deaths of heralds. Why did he not freak when Jez died?  The absence of that from the books is a big reason i'm team faker, as if SF can sense them it would seem extremely disingenuous to not bring it up. Spoiler > Quote to manage length

  Reveal hidden contents

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

“But—”

Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors.

Then, the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized.

“What?” Gavilar said, backing up. “What happened?”

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

This does not seem like something whoever it is had control over / was aware of and ready for.  If this is Stormfather, i simply cannot rectify his lack of reaction to Jez's death / Dalinar's awareness of the SF bugging out.

2. Perhaps there is a connection with Gav that he does not have with Dalinar.  We've got 6 books to go

3. In your search for absolute proof, how can you say for sure SF would have noticed his visions being hijacked?  Can you tell me exactly how the magic works so in that he would be made aware?  If there is a reason for which I am not aware, lmk

4. Not sure what part in particular you are referring to, but working theory is Gav is still speaking to SF at points, so this is moot

5. Would he really abandon a lie he willingly went into for pride?  No

6. IDFK, we no next to nothing about connection compared to its existing mechanics (in my belief).

1. As I said before, there was no Dalinar POV during that moment, as we see it only through Moash and Ash PoV. We can't say he did not feel it or he did with certainty. And then we skip year in-between books so to have that kind of conversation between Dalinar and SF after a year would be weird.

2. Ishar seems to have bigger connection with Dalinar as he is Bondsmith and Gavilar not, Ishar even said it that. Ishar would have to most likely establish connection with Gavilar by touching him. 

3. SF was fully aware when Odium hijacked the vision, he was literally pushed away from it. Ishar probably would not have to do it by brute strength but still starting and ending visions by request would be something that SF could sense, and he would be aware of Gavilar talking to someone in his visions, even if he could not sense that person. We also knew that Gavilar's visions are the same as Dalinar's so they must come from SF. SF completely ignoring all that weirdness is a stretch. Also with Lift, he noticed her as soon as Dalinar did, so it suggest the same would happen when Gavilar would be talking to someone else in the visions.

5. He categorically refused to bond with Dalinar and few seconds later agree to it. Abandoning lie is much lesser deal than bonding and risking life.

 

10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Anyone here think it might be Nohadon?

Could dead person from beyond even do that? You can connect to dead people, or at least to your perception of that person but other way around? Interesting idea, maybe not as a Stormfaker. 

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I will put in my five cents as well

Stormfather is also unable to sense death of Herald, in fact he did not even react to permanent death, even though Heralds did.  So whatever connection is there is stronger in between Heralds themselves then between a Herald and Stormfather. The reaction of entity then goes against what we know of Stormfather, hence supports it could be something else.
It is entirely possible that in prologue they did not know if Kalak died simply because the sensation of death of another Herald could be lost in the battle, if it is not particularly overpowering, but this is admittedly a conjecture.

Ishar was also able to Bondsmith/manipulate connection prior to becoming a Herald, see events on Ashyn and Syls comments in RoW. Also, even if due to Honor and his restrictions he could Bondsmith only through Honorblade, these restrictions are falling away (see Dalinar's experience, Ishars experiments, Melishi and lines), so he might be regaining his previous abilities, even if Honorblade makes him stronger. The effects in prologue are relatively weak (voices, slight physical manifestation, detecting Seon), and one of those (seeing an object in the building) is explicitly something unbonded Stormfather cannot do.
The biggest feat would be sending a vision, however we don't know how where the visions made, where are they stored, so we cannot make any judgements on if someone closely connected to Honor (like Bondsmith Herald) would not be able to hijack them.
Again a conjecture, but nothing that would go against previously established information.

Not necessarily, we have at least one example (maybe two) of someone being in a vision or changing part of vision without Stormfather (or even a shard) noticing. The fully confirmed is of course Lift, who is able to infiltrate visions and unless she reveals herself the entities are unaware. Second (more tentative) would be Nohadon vision, it starts with 'regular' vision but then becomes something else, and Stormfather was not aware of that (if I remember correctly).
So in fact Stormfather would not necessarily notice.
Ending the visions is the better counterargument, that would require the entity to be able to tap into the same source as Stormfather, which might not be impossible considering what we have seen of connection manipulation. Of course, as I stated before, we have no idea of how the visions are implemented and where are they stored, so little speculation can be done.
 

True, but someone in touch with Connection could most likely do that. If Dalinar can connect Kaladin with aspect of Tien, connecting yourself or someone else with part of their future aspect could be possible, as spiritual realm is timeless.
Alternatively, there are Death-rattles, and someone with Connection powers could get more out of that.
Finally, there are also enlightened spren, who can provide visions of future.
So there are multiple ways Ishar (or someone else) could obtain information on possible future.

Do you know Ishar that well? Why inconsistent behavior of Stormfather is simply 'revelation' of new facet, but Ishar would have to act consistently with what we think we know?
Additionally, while Ishar is the most popular option, he is not the only one for the Stormfaker theory.

 

How did Dalinar form connection between Kaladin and Tien? He used his connection to Stormfather to 'touch' Kaladin through Highstorm, and then used Kaladins connection to Tien to connect him with his aspect in Spiritual.
Similarly, Ishar could for example piggyback on connection to Stormfather through remains of Oathpact, and then use connection of Stormfather and Gavilar to 'touch' Gavilar.

"It is entirely possible that in prologue they did not know if Kalak died simply because the sensation of death of another Herald could be lost in the battle, if it is not particularly overpowering, but this is admittedly a conjecture." 

Seeing how overwhelmed Gavilar's SF was it would be the same for Ishar during battle, hard to miss. 

 

"True, but someone in touch with Connection could most likely do that (see future)" 

That's more of the Fortune thing not Connection. Seeing future is good counterargument but also it doesn't have to be that - he could just sense Jezrien blade as even Kalak noticed that Szeth had it somehow in Jasnah Prologue. It could be just a deduction not future visions. Huh, I'm providing counterarguments for my counterarguments

 

"Similarly, Ishar could for example piggyback on connection to Stormfather through remains of Oathpact, and then use connection of Stormfather and Gavilar to 'touch' Gavilar." 

Good point, which would mean that SF has connection to Oathpact and it was him feeling death of Herald, completely removing that part form theory, which for me would be more convincing. 

[therunner he/him]

45 minutes ago, alder24 said:

"It is entirely possible that in prologue they did not know if Kalak died simply because the sensation of death of another Herald could be lost in the battle, if it is not particularly overpowering, but this is admittedly a conjecture." 

Seeing how overwhelmed Gavilar's SF was it would be the same for Ishar during battle, hard to miss.

If something suddenly burns me I would react more strongly than if the same thing happened while I was in the middle of burning building. But yes, it is a weaker part of theory.

46 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's more of the Fortune thing not Connection. Seeing future is good counterargument but also it doesn't have to be that - he could just sense Jezrien blade as even Kalak noticed that Szeth had it somehow in Jasnah Prologue. It could be just a deduction not future visions. Huh, I'm providing counterarguments for my counterarguments

Fortune is fully of 'future' sight, I was proposing to use Connection powers to circumvent that. Considering what we have seen with Tien, I don't think it is necessarily impossible, if difficult.

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good point, which would mean that SF has connection to Oathpact and it was him feeling death of Herald, completely removing that part form theory, which for me would be more convincing. 

SF most likely has connection to Oathpact (thanks to merging with cognitive shadow of Tanavast), but from what we have seen his connection is weaker than that of Heralds. And from all we know, he did not register death of Jezrien, so his link is weaker than that of Heralds.
If he is unable to feel permanent death and removal of party from Oathpact, why would he feel temporary death and so strongly at that?

[Anomander Rake he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

1. As I said before, there was no Dalinar POV during that moment, as we see it only through Moash and Ash PoV. We can't say he did not feel it or he did with certainty. And then we skip year in-between books so to have that kind of conversation between Dalinar and SF after a year would be weird.

2. Ishar seems to have bigger connection with Dalinar as he is Bondsmith and Gavilar not, Ishar even said it that. Ishar would have to most likely establish connection with Gavilar by touching him. 

3. SF was fully aware when Odium hijacked the vision, he was literally pushed away from it. Ishar probably would not have to do it by brute strength but still starting and ending visions by request would be something that SF could sense, and he would be aware of Gavilar talking to someone in his visions, even if he could not sense that person. We also knew that Gavilar's visions are the same as Dalinar's so they must come from SF. SF completely ignoring all that weirdness is a stretch. Also with Lift, he noticed her as soon as Dalinar did, so it suggest the same would happen when Gavilar would be talking to someone else in the visions.

5. He categorically refused to bond with Dalinar and few seconds later agree to it. Abandoning lie is much lesser deal than bonding and risking life.

1. I know there was no Dalinar PoV.  The fact that there wasn't, and the fact that we never hear about it from him or SF, just seems absurd to me if SF can actually sense the deaths.  And no, it would not be weird - wouldn't you like to know why the sliver of god you're bonded to started screaming in agony?  I know SF is not exactly forthcoming with Dalinar, but c'mon, that's a pretty weird thing to keep quiet about (both in terms of in-character decisions and Brandon decisions).

2&3.  Fair points, but we still have a lot to learn about Bondsmithing stuff - I don't think Ishy pulling the wool over SF's eyes is out of the question

5. Just bc Gavilar told him whatever about Dalinar at the end and the SF started sending the visions to Dalinar after does not mean the two are immediate cause/effect - i would not call that obeying him

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Stormfather is also unable to sense death of Herald, in fact he did not even react to permanent death, even though Heralds did.  So whatever connection is there is stronger in between Heralds themselves then between a Herald and Stormfather. The reaction of entity then goes against what we know of Stormfather, hence supports it could be something else.

We didn't have a Dalinar PoV of that moment, we had Ash's PoV for that, another one would be redundant.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

It is entirely possible that in prologue they did not know if Kalak died simply because the sensation of death of another Herald could be lost in the battle, if it is not particularly overpowering, but this is admittedly a conjecture.

How did all eight of them not notice? Or better yet, how would Kalak have been so distracted he could miss nine deaths?

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Ishar was also able to Bondsmith/manipulate connection prior to becoming a Herald, see events on Ashyn and Syls comments in RoW. Also, even if due to Honor and his restrictions he could Bondsmith only through Honorblade, these restrictions are falling away (see Dalinar's experience, Ishars experiments, Melishi and lines), so he might be regaining his previous abilities, even if Honorblade makes him stronger. The effects in prologue are relatively weak (voices, slight physical manifestation, detecting Seon), and one of those (seeing an object in the building) is explicitly something unbonded Stormfather cannot do.
The biggest feat would be sending a vision, however we don't know how where the visions made, where are they stored, so we cannot make any judgements on if someone closely connected to Honor (like Bondsmith Herald) would not be able to hijack them.
Again a conjecture, but nothing that would go against previously established information.

Considering Ashynite magic is disease based, and Ishar is not only in full health, but had no way of cultiviating a disease like that for seven thousand years, I'm going to say Ashynite Bondsmithing is off of the table.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

True, but someone in touch with Connection could most likely do that. If Dalinar can connect Kaladin with aspect of Tien, connecting yourself or someone else with part of their future aspect could be possible, as spiritual realm is timeless.
Alternatively, there are Death-rattles, and someone with Connection powers could get more out of that.
Finally, there are also enlightened spren, who can provide visions of future.
So there are multiple ways Ishar (or someone else) could obtain information on possible future.

Fortune and Connection are different so while there might be some interplay I doubt you could use one to manipulate the other.

Moeloach was in Kharbranth at the time so Ishar wasn't in contact with him, and Glys is the first enlightened spren of his caliber, so it couldn't have been either of those.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Do you know Ishar that well? Why inconsistent behavior of Stormfather is simply 'revelation' of new facet, but Ishar would have to act consistently with what we think we know?
Additionally, while Ishar is the most popular option, he is not the only one for the Stormfaker theory.

I'm pretty sure a man claiming to be the reincarnation of Adonalsium, is far too proud to do what someone else orders him to.

And I'm not too bothered by other potential fakers as they don't defy previously established canon.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

How did Dalinar form connection between Kaladin and Tien? He used his connection to Stormfather to 'touch' Kaladin through Highstorm, and then used Kaladins connection to Tien to connect him with his aspect in Spiritual.
Similarly, Ishar could for example piggyback on connection to Stormfather through remains of Oathpact, and then use connection of Stormfather and Gavilar to 'touch' Gavilar.

Dalinar is already bonded to the Stormfather, and in riding the storm, he is in contact with everything the storm touches.

How on roshar would Ishar do that?

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Not necessarily, we have at least one example (maybe two) of someone being in a vision or changing part of vision without Stormfather (or even a shard) noticing. The fully confirmed is of course Lift, who is able to infiltrate visions and unless she reveals herself the entities are unaware. Second (more tentative) would be Nohadon vision, it starts with 'regular' vision but then becomes something else, and Stormfather was not aware of that (if I remember correctly).
So in fact Stormfather would not necessarily notice.
Ending the visions is the better counterargument, that would require the entity to be able to tap into the same source as Stormfather, which might not be impossible considering what we have seen of connection manipulation. Of course, as I stated before, we have no idea of how the visions are implemented and where are they stored, so little speculation can be done.

Lift was noticed as soon as she began interacting.

And on the Nohadon vision Brandon has already told us the only people who could be doing that are Dalinar himself, and the God Beyond

Spoiler

Jofwu

Dalinar had two really weird visions. Was that Connection-y stuff like he did with Kaladin and Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Which ones are you talking about?

Jofwu

End of Words of Radiance, and in Oathbringer with Nohadon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be the same sort of weirdness that's happening with Tien. Yes, so you have basically multiple different ways of interpreting this. One is just--what Dalinar wants is directly... he is starting to change the visions specifically, and some might argue he is pulling from the Beyond. Others would argue that what Dalinar wants, feels things in his past, he is actually enforcing upon the vision, and is changing and altering the visions. And that is absolutely going on. It's whether the other thing is happening or not, depends on your personal religious beliefs. But Dalinar is starting, the Bondsmithing is starting to shape the visions.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)  

 

[Quantus he/him]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't see how that would corrupt it.

It would not necessarily Corrupt the Everstorm itself but it would/could tinge the investiture flowing into the Physical realm through those other Corrupted stormform spren that were used to Manifest it.  

 

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

I am aware I can come across as harsh, I honestly am not trying to. I try to find the nicest way to phrase something while still making my point. However interacting with other people has long been a weakness of mine, so fogive me if I mess up.

Tips and pointers are welcome.

 You appear to have arrived at your own conclusion and then refuse to consider even the possibility of other evidence and instead dismiss it all at non-existent, despite folks going to exhaustive effort to illustrate otherwise.  Please try to remember that supporting evidence can and will exist for explanations that are ultimately proven incorrect when the rest of the information becomes available, and just because you do not personally find some evidence as compelling as others it does not mean that the evidence is non-extant OR the logic is flawed.