Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, Experience said:

Maybe the Nightwatcher or Sibling would have the ability?

The Nightwatcher doesn't look or talk like that, and The Sibling was non-functional.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Stormfather could have been giving the visions, unaware of the fact that Gavilar was being fooled by some other force.

Gavilar told the spren he sees to end the vision and they do so, Gavilar was also talking with them, and no other voice is heard.

[Gilphon]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Stormfather could have been giving the visions, unaware of the fact that Gavilar was being fooled by some other force.

I feel like the Stormfather would've been able to tell. Like surely he could've heard Gavilar talking to himself, at the very least. 

[Zea mays she/her]

Do we know if the personalities of Spren are always consistent, or if they change to reflect the person they bond? 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Zea mays
Grammar

[teknopathetic he/him]

20 hours ago, Serack said:

@teknopathetic, @Nathrangking, see the WoBs quoted in @Frustration’s post above

 

per WoB the Stormfather was granting visions to Galvinar.  I’m having a hard time squaring this with some of the stuff portrayed as “The Stormfather” saying and doing too, but much of the “lies” did not occur on screen.  I can’t wait until I have a text to comb over to see if maybe Galvinar was making some wrong conclusions about dead Heralds

Gavilar says that sometimes the Stormfather feels like a Man and sometimes like a strange force. He also says the Stormfather sometimes thinks things should not be going as they are. I wonder if half the time Gavilar is seeing the Stormfather and the other times the StormFaker? 

Edit: And to be fair, Dalinar sometimes hear the "unite them" voice or sees visions from Noadon (maybe). There are weird things going on with Dalinar as well that imply more than 1 person can make a VR call. Heck, Lift can slide right in, so it doesnt appear that difficult to play around with the visions or the voices. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[KaladinWorldsinger]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How would a being who isn't the Stormfather be able to create the visions and act as a Bondsmith spren?

We already know from Dalinar's vision of nohadon that stormfather does not control all visions. We still have no idea who or what did that by the way. It could be easy to mimic the stormfather's visions. This is def not stormfather. This spren seems more uncaring. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Gilphon said:

I feel like the Stormfather would've been able to tell. Like surely he could've heard Gavilar talking to himself, at the very least. 

Yeah, he probably would have. I don't know, it just seems like the Stormfather is very different from how we've seen him before.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

We already know from Dalinar's vision of nohadon that stormfather does not control all visions. We still have no idea who or what did that by the way. It could be easy to mimic the stormfather's visions. This is def not stormfather. This spren seems more uncaring. 

Are you refering to the one with the Casmfiend? Or the regular vision?

And on Uncaring the Stormfather tried to kill Dalinar in Words of Radiance.

[Nathrangking he/him]

 

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How would a being who isn't the Stormfather be able to create the visions and act as a Bondsmith spren?

8 minutes ago, Serack said:

@teknopathetic, @Nathrangking, see the WoBs quoted in @Frustration’s post above

 

per WoB the Stormfather was granting visions to Galvinar.  I’m having a hard time squaring this with some of the stuff portrayed as “The Stormfather” saying and doing too, but much of the “lies” did not occur on screen.  I can’t wait until I have a text to comb over to see if maybe Galvinar was making some wrong conclusions about dead Heralds

I'm familiar with those WoB's. I don't dispute them. It is in this particular instance that I am having a problem.

If it was Ishar well then the answer is some level of connection manipulation. As has been noted do we know that he only ever saw the stormfather? This dissonance would serve Odium well. Gavilar himself seems confused. It does not sit right.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Nathrangking

[Eternal Khol he/him]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The words of the Oathpact are hidden in the Way of Kings

Was that stated? I took that whole thing as his next bondsmith oath being in the Way of Kings

Edit: they hadnt even started bonding yet right? So i guess it couldnt have been a Radiant Oath

Edited March 30, 2022 by Eternal Khol

[teknopathetic he/him]

Another clue to the StormFaker being Ishar:

The voice feels the need to explain that immortality is not great, and says that "MOST of the heralds are insane now".

Ishar believes he is still not crazy, and therefor believes all but him are now insane. This is exacly how Ishar would word a statement like this. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

 

I'm familiar with those WoB's. I don't dispute them. It is in this particular instance that I am having a problem.

If it was Ishar well then the answer is some level of connection manipulation. As has been noted do we know that he only ever saw the stormfather? This dissonance would serve Odium well. Gavilar himself seems confused. It does not sit right.

@teknopathetic

I don't think Ishar had his Honorblade until near RoW time.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Frustration

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@teknopathetic

I don't think Ishar had his Honorblade until near RoW time.

Ishar was God-Kinging before he had his blade, so this makes me think he had access to some magic before then. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Nathrangking he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

@teknopathetic

I don't think Ishar had his Honorblade until near RoW time.

Maybe? We don't have an accurate timeline which makes things tricky.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Serack said:

Redirect, moving away from the excitement about the reveal that a Herald dying that night, putting weight behind @teknopathic's theory:
I want to talk about what the heck was going on with The Stormfather being so different in how he manifested to Galivar. It was so different that I started suspecting it was an imposter manipulating him in the guise of The Stormfather and went back to the Arcanum and reviewed the WoB which confirmed that yes indeed Galivar had been receiving the same visions as Dalinar, from The Stormfather.  

So the big differences I can categorize are:

• The Stormfather would actually sometimes manifest as some shimmering being in the room when talking to Galivar which never happens for Dalinar.  
• There were several things recalled by Galvinar as having been told to him by The Stormfather that are /really/ deviant

1. Apparently was recruiting Galvinar to become a new, replacement Herald, attempting to rebuild a functioning Oathpact.
2. Presumed to have lied about the Heralds dying and going back to Braize.  I wish I had the text to review the details of what Galivar recollected of this.  

Also the being knows a about things from when the Stormfather was not fully aware and claimed he didn't have a bound to Galivar, which the Stormfather had.

1 hour ago, Serack said:

Between this new info about Galivar presumably being recruited to serve as a new Herald and this line from secret project #4

  Reveal hidden contents

You didn’t do anything when my friends and I were dying to arrows all those years ago.  I went to Damnation then, and you sat around playing a flute.

I suspect some new Oathpact with new Heralds that are sent to Damnation will be formed.

He's takling about bridge duty

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I have to disagree.

1. He can show the visions
2. He has the same goal
3. He has the same speaking patterns and temperment
4. He can tell when a Herald died and recognise Heralds
5. Gavilar was on the path to Bondsmith

Could just be someone who impersonated the SF after seeing he had started sending visions to Galivar

48 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Unless there was funny business going on. I have seen people speculate that Ishar was messing with the connection perhaps or something along those lines. This replacing of the oathpact is also odd. How would the stormfather know whether this was even possible. He did not yet know how strong an unchained bondsmith is.

Did Ishar already have his blade by then? I had assumed he had retrieved it after the Everstorm came.

Also he seems a bit too sane to be Ishar. I know it has been theorised Ishar's madness is only a recent development due to the burden of nine DR and the fact that every other Herald think him sane but isn't this set during the time Ishar had Nale hunt down proto-radiants

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Nightwatcher doesn't look or talk like that, and The Sibling was non-functional.

Gavilar told the spren he sees to end the vision and they do so, Gavilar was also talking with them, and no other voice is heard.

That's reasonably within the power of someone with Ishar's blade, of the Ista Dawnshard and of a Shard

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Are you refering to the one with the Casmfiend? Or the regular vision?

And on Uncaring the Stormfather tried to kill Dalinar in Words of Radiance.

Wasn't it a Thundercast?

Edited March 30, 2022 by mathiau

[Gilphon]

For what it's worth, I do kind of question those WoB in this context. Like a paraphrased WoB from six years ago is the exactly kind of thing we have to reconsider now that we have new information available. Who knows, maybe Brandon actually said something like 'Gavilar was on his path for longer than Dalinar', and it just sounded like he meant the Bondsmith path from context?

And a WoB where Brandon says that Dalinar and Gavilar saw the same visions, but then cuts himself off from saying anything more concrete than 'Gavilar had a different reaction to them', and then he starts talking about how the Stormfather works in general terms? Really that just reads like Brandon talking around a spoiler. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Gilphon

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

Ishar was God-Kinging before he had his blade, so this makes me think he had access to some magic before then. 

Sp4

Spoiler

For a human, creating an avatar like the one we see in the prologue takes a lot of power. Hoid is a duralumin compounder and he still needs for Auxiliary to increase Sigzil's connection to him to manifest one

[KaladinWorldsinger]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Are you refering to the one with the Casmfiend

Yes

[Nathrangking he/him]

Just now, mathiau said:

Sp4

  Reveal hidden contents

For a human, creating an avatar like the one we see in the prologue takes a lot of power. Hoid is a duralumin compounder and he still needs for Auxiliary to increase Sigzil's connection to him to manifest one

SP4

Spoiler

Compounder? Where did that come from? I don't recall that in SP4.

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Sp4

  Reveal hidden contents

For a human, creating an avatar like the one we see in the prologue takes a lot of power. Hoid is a duralumin compounder and he still needs for Auxiliary to increase Sigzil's connection to him to manifest one

could this not also be because of the distance involved? True we don't know where Hoid is at the time but distance may play a factor

[Jake al'Rober]

15 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Gavilar says that sometimes the Stormfather feels like a Man and sometimes like a strange force. He also says the Stormfather sometimes thinks things should not be going as they are. I wonder if half the time Gavilar is seeing the Stormfather and the other times the StormFaker? 

I agree with this idea a lot, but I don't think it's Ishar, I think it's Odium. The shimmering light in the shape of a person talking to Gavilar sounds a whole lot like the figure Vin kept seeing when Preservation and then Ruin were showing themselves to her. I think the Stormfather shows a vision, then Odium steps in without alerting the Stormfather and is like "Who, get a load of that, let me explain it to you." I just don't know how much reach he has from Braize at the point, maybe this is as much reach as he has? Similar to Ruin only being able to touch Scadrial in pulses?

[Rg2045]

You know I just posted a theory how to transport storm/voidlight off world through the CR and in less then 24 hours I was semi proven right 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Just now, Jake al'Rober said:

I agree with this idea a lot, but I don't think it's Ishar, I think it's Odium. The shimmering light in the shape of a person talking to Gavilar sounds a whole lot like the figure Vin kept seeing when Preservation and then Ruin were showing themselves to her. I think the Stormfather shows a vision, then Odium steps in without alerting the Stormfather and is like "Who, get a load of that, let me explain it to you." I just don't know how much reach he has from Braize at the point, maybe this is as much reach as he has? Similar to Ruin only being able to touch Scadrial in pulses?

Do we think Odium would scream when a Herald dies? Maybe? But it didnt seem like that. Odium would have likely been thrilled, but the StormFaker was very upset that the timeline had gone wrong. 

[AmNike]

We know that Honor went a little crazy before Tanavast actually kicked the bucket, so it's possible that the Stormfather-esque figure could be a byproduct of the splintering of Honor. We know that splinters can take on a mind of their own, and while Tanavast merged his Cognitive Shadow with the Stormfather, that doesn't mean that part of the Investiture didn't also take on sentience post-splintering. In other words, we could be dealing with a small portion of Honor's Investiture that mirrors his madness towards the end of his life. This would explain why he can also show the visions, but also why he lies: he's following the spirit of Honor's beliefs while breaking the law of the beliefs by lying.

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Nathrangking said:

SP4

  Hide contents

Compounder? Where did that come from? I don't recall that in SP4.

That's one's from a WoB actually

Quote

Steeldancer

Hoid. Does he have more unkeyed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid has access to lots of different things, so, yes he does.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

3 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said:

Sp4

Spoiler

could this not also be because of the distance involved? True we don't know where Hoid is at the time but distance may play a factor

Spoiler

It probably is why C-duralumin wasn't enough, but if just the hypothetical remnants of Ishar's powers were enough to create an avatar on Roshar I doubt Hoid would have had any issue with sending one anywhere in the Cosmere

2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Do we think Odium would scream when a Herald dies? Maybe? But it didnt seem like that. Odium would have likely been thrilled, but the StormFaker was very upset that the timeline had gone wrong. 

Yes, if Odium could delay the desolation by ten years then the Herald's death probably didn't have much effect on whatever timetable he had

[+Bzhydack he/him]

36 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It also explains why the The Stormfaker screams as a herald dies. Ishar created the Oathpact, so he would likely feel a death quite profoundly. The Stormfaker then promises to never use the Kholin family again, which is another hint at this not being the Real Stormfather. 

My guess is that Ishar gives up on using proxy-kings and decides to be the God-King of Tukar himself after this point. 

Yep, this. And if im not mistaken, Stormfather wasnt affected by Jezrien's death. Other heralds, on the other hand, will indeed feel this. The whole aperance of "Stormfather" is awfully similar to what Thaidakar did with the Seon.

Also, Stormfather never want to replace Heralds and set new Oathpact. But Jezrien indeed wants do exactly this. Is possible that Stormfather is giving visions, but Ishar is hacking to this Connection. First I thoght that this can be Unmade (more specificly, Dai-Ghonarthis) but indeed, Ishar seems to be better candidate.