Ookla the Black Sock Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 Just now, Kasimir said: If we don't know what we don't know, how do we know if someone does know more than they should know? *blinks* I see you have gotten tired from being a gm Kas lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Destined Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, Kasimir said: If we don't know what we don't know, how do we know if someone does know more than they should know? I know who’s in my doc. If someone outside of my doc knows who’s in my doc, and everyone in my doc has kept quiet, that’s weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashbringer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 OKAY! I'm done sending out Docs. If anyone isn't in an Empire Doc, or the link is broken, or something, then let me know. ... still need to make a spec doc. ... I'll do that later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 Thaid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Black Sock Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Amanuensis said: Thaid any reasons for dis? besides the awkward conversation with Archer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: any reasons for dis? besides the awkward conversation with Archer. I just wanted to fit in tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Black Sock Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 Just now, Amanuensis said: I just wanted to fit in tbh *shrugs* okie. I can't blame you for that. considering how many times I've done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 hi guys ilu all the world is wonderful everything is wonderful and beautiful God is good ilu all will reply mat when i have slept on it but essentially, still fundamentally disagree and ascribe low probability to such slips, think it's helpful because people will be basing reads off doc interactions as well so it will come out eventually anyway doc is beautiful now i have prettified it all is well wishing you best energy and much love GOD IS GOOD THERE IS A GOD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I'M SO HAPPY EVERYTHING IS OKAY LESGO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Kasimir said: hi guys ilu all the world is wonderful everything is wonderful and beautiful God is good ilu all will reply mat when i have slept on it but essentially, still fundamentally disagree and ascribe low probability to such slips, think it's helpful because people will be basing reads off doc interactions as well so it will come out eventually anyway doc is beautiful now i have prettified it all is well wishing you best energy and much love GOD IS GOOD THERE IS A GOD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I'M SO HAPPY EVERYTHING IS OKAY LESGO If I didn't know any better, I would say Kas has finally broken But we love you too get some rest friendo ( unless I misread this post as "I'm going to bed" - in which case, rest your brain ) (4) Thaidakar: Archer, Kasimir, Matrim, Aman, (1) Experience: Thaidakar, (1) Archer: Experience, This wagon formation always catches wolves. Edited April 1, 2022 by Amanuensis added parenthesis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: If I didn't know any better, I would say Kas has finally broken Why would you know any better, sule? 3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: But we love you too get some rest friendo ( unless I misread this post as "I'm going to bed" - in which case, rest your brain ) Ilu too bro <3 <3 <3 I'm just getting brekkie then YEAH SLEEP TIME SLEEP IS GOOD HELL YEAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) Kasimir Experience JNV Matrim Striker Archer Illwei Baker Sibling Bort Tani Devotary Araris Orlok shadow TJ Thaidakar Edited April 1, 2022 by Amanuensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnie the Pookla Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 Devotary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbereth Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 This is El, your friendly Impartial Moderator, checking in to remind you I’m here and keeping an eye on things! Feel free to PM me, in your GM PM or directly, if you have any concerns or problems. A stout, elderly woman stood on a hill overlooking the beach and the burning wreckage beyond it, arms folded. She was dressed much more plainly than any of the diplomats, almost in gardening gear. Aela Ilfdan hadn’t cared for the idea of a bunch of snooty nobles coming to her island in the first place, let alone having them stuck here. The sounds of complaints and consternation wafted up towards her on a wind smelling of smoke. This is going to be such a pain. Turning sharply on her heel, Aela headed back down the hill towards her garden. The politicians could find their cabins on their own. Right now she needed to strangle something, and better that it be a weed rather than one of their necks. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooklil the Wei Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 I'm in the roshar doc, kinda lonely. Strange no one else wanted to be here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 Until my Empire collectively votes on if we are going to fully reveal ourselves, I might as well step up as the Teoish Emissary. We have 5 members total and thus assume we have 1 mole among us, if not 2 depending on how our beloved GM has decided to distribute alignments. If I had to guess right now, given 18 players, we are dealing with 4 elims total. I personally think at least one doc is uncompromised because from a GM perspective, it would be really fun to see a full village Empire pointing fingers at each other because of paranoia. Plus, if at least one faction has 2 elims instead of 1, it means we can't hard clear every member of an Empire once their mole is found. If any other Emissary would like to step forward and provide their Empire's numbers, I'd be quite happy, as this seems like a good enough topic for us to discuss at the start of D1 to get the ball rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNV Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 5 hours ago, Ashbringer said: There are 4 different Empires. Do we get to know which emprie didnt make the cut or is that something we just have to live with not knowing honestly doesnt really change much theres a lot of accountability to go off of especially without PMs and theres no functional difference but just thought Id ask 3 hours ago, Kasimir said: hi guys ilu all the world is wonderful everything is wonderful and beautiful God is good ilu all will reply mat when i have slept on it but essentially, still fundamentally disagree and ascribe low probability to such slips, think it's helpful because people will be basing reads off doc interactions as well so it will come out eventually anyway doc is beautiful now i have prettified it all is well wishing you best energy and much love GOD IS GOOD THERE IS A GOD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I'M SO HAPPY EVERYTHING IS OKAY LESGO Hi love you too oh by the way heard you were the fancy doc guy your service is appreciated and I look forward to seeing your pretty empire doc when the game ends you are a cool guy have a good nap 4 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said: I don’t think we should reveal our empires in case someone slips up later by knowing more than they should ....ok somehow the quotes got out of order dont know how that happened oh well So youre saying we should keep hush hush in case t he elims make a horrible mistake later what sort of mistake would empire knowledge cover up them saying 'oh I know this person is in this empire?' I wouldnt assume an elim would do that besides honesty is a good policy and considering how Ashbringer I think mentioned in the Art of game creation there was a '0-2 evils per doc' sort of hmm going on maybe it could help with that but then again they might not have used that for this so never mind on that but in summary I think theres no real harm to revealing and a lotta help cause it clears up 'oh these people are linked' as 'oh these people share an empire' and lets us focus on more nefarious connections and agreements Oh and about Thaidakar I will say they do seem kinda more engaged than other games Ive seen them but then again theyre never that cnosistent between games so tentatively just shelving that thought for now on the shelf thats just out of reach so you have to get a tiny box to get it and its a little comedic to see a person getting a really small box just to get the thought on the slightly too high shelf Eshena was quite honestly nobody's first choice for the delegation, but the head diplomat, second diplomat, and the first, second, and third alternates had succumbed to an unfortunate bout of food poisoning. So now Eshena was on the delegation despite being the courier, not any sort of diplomat at all. The only thing they had going for them was their penmanship and relative knowledge of proceedings. Unfortunately, they had extreme social anxiety, which somewhat hampered their ability to negotiate. They could brew a pot of tea like nobody's business, they could whittle a bit, they could write sternly worded letters, but talk to people? Absolutely not. Too bad the fate of the empire depended on it. No pressure. Speaking of tea, that would be a great balm for their frazzled nerves. Yes, tea. Chamomile or lavender, depending on what was closest. The only issue was that they didn't know where the kitchens were. They would have to ask for directions. They would have to ask for directions. They would have to talk to someone to get the tea that would let them relax enough to unclench their jaw. On second thought, maybe they would just stay in their room. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Destined Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 15 minutes ago, JNV said: So youre saying we should keep hush hush in case t he elims make a horrible mistake later what sort of mistake would empire knowledge cover up them saying 'oh I know this person is in this empire?' I wouldnt assume an elim would do that besides honesty is a good policy and considering how Ashbringer I think mentioned in the Art of game creation there was a '0-2 evils per doc' sort of hmm going on maybe it could help with that but then again they might not have used that for this so never mind on that but in summary I think theres no real harm to revealing and a lotta help cause it clears up 'oh these people are linked' as 'oh these people share an empire' and lets us focus on more nefarious connections and agreements Obviously I don’t think anyone would slip on purpose, but I don’t see a ton of benefit in revealing when it feels like half the point of the docs is that they’re secret. imo the possibility that the elims will make a mistake outweighs the benefits from publicly revealing the docs but I seem to be the only one with that opinion so I could just be wrong :P. I also am under the assumption that the docs were true RNGd and so I don’t think the elims are equally spread throughout them. I don’t think we can clear people based on being in an Empire with one or two elims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 inb4 one of the empire docs has only elims and one of them buses all the rest of them and then claims their empire and becomes a deepwolf anyway Thaidakar because why not also I dislike Aman and Mat's points, can't decide if I think they're suspicious for it yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 6 hours ago, Archer said: Assuming they're fairly evenly distributed, I imagine they'll be able to figure out most of who is in what doc, so us claiming is more likely to close the information gap than to expose much Well the options are elims in 3-4 docs = they know every villager's empire allegiance, elims in 2 docs they know ~1/3, all elims in one doc they know 0 or 1/14, if it's four elims. Five elims are more likely to know everyone but know a lower percentage if they don't. 41 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said: Obviously I don’t think anyone would slip on purpose, but I don’t see a ton of benefit in revealing when it feels like half the point of the docs is that they’re secret. imo the possibility that the elims will make a mistake outweighs the benefits from publicly revealing the docs but I seem to be the only one with that opinion so I could just be wrong :P. I also am under the assumption that the docs were true RNGd and so I don’t think the elims are equally spread throughout them. I don’t think we can clear people based on being in an Empire with one or two elims. It's that the docs probably are already not secret to the elims. Knowing who's in a doc is less important than knowing what's happening, so emissaries only make sense if everyone else from that doc is willing to step up and combat incorrect or misleading interpretations. True RNG is I think more likely to give an even distribution than Ash handpicking it, since the latter can just decide to mix things up while RNG doesn't care. I don't know what the odds are of an even distribution of four elims given RNG are though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said: Obviously I don’t think anyone would slip on purpose, but I don’t see a ton of benefit in revealing when it feels like half the point of the docs is that they’re secret. imo the possibility that the elims will make a mistake outweighs the benefits from publicly revealing the docs but I seem to be the only one with that opinion so I could just be wrong :P. I also am under the assumption that the docs were true RNGd and so I don’t think the elims are equally spread throughout them. I don’t think we can clear people based on being in an Empire with one or two elims. I don't agree that half the point of the docs is that they are "secret" - our identities were confirmed within them before we entered, for starters, so if secrecy was the intention, I would think it would be up to us to remain anonymous within our own Empire. If anything, I think *one* point of the docs is to replace PMs. It allows players to communicate outside of the public, to work together in secret (of other empires if no information leaks via elims), and to keep each other accountable in smaller microcosms. More than anything, I don't believe there's any preassigned "point" to the docs at all. I think it's ultimately for each Empire to decide how they want to handle themselves internally. A GM is a GM at the end of the day, not a player. Ashbringer might have invented the rules, but it's for us to decide how we use them. I personally find your RNG assumption fairly naive, if not intentionally misleading. I doubt the docs were "true RNGd" in the way you seem to be implying since that could potentially lead to every elim being in a single doc or 2+ docs being completely free of elim influence, which could easily throw the game balance completely out of whack. Matrim. Can you state five reasons why keeping the Empire rosters a secret is beneficial to the Village? If you can't state five, state as many as you can; or if you can state more, please state them all. I'm curious to see if this is a 'you haven't thought about the topic deeply, but this is what your instincts say' situation or a 'it would be inconvenient for my team (Disruptors) if this info got out' thing. 44 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said: inb4 one of the empire docs has only elims and one of them buses all the rest of them and then claims their empire and becomes a deepwolf anyway Thaidakar because why not also I dislike Aman and Mat's points, can't decide if I think they're suspicious for it yet inb4 Striker is that bussing madman deepwolf Striker What points of Mat's do you dislike exactly, and why? What points of mine do you dislike exactly, and why? Upon answering the above questions, have you decided if either of us are suspicious for them? (4) Thaidakar: Archer, Kasimir, Matrim, Striker, (1) Experience: Thaidakar, (1) Archer: Experience, (1) Matrim: Aman, (1) Striker: Aman, Spoiler Kasimir Experience JNV Archer Illwei Baker Sibling Bort Tani Devotary Araris Orlok shadow TJ Thaidakar Matrim Striker Edited April 2, 2022 by Amanuensis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 10 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: What points of Mat's do you dislike exactly, and why? basically that entire post of his you just quoted and for fairly similar reasons to your stated reasons. 10 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: What points of mine do you dislike exactly, and why? It was mostly not agreeing with thinking one empire doc was for sure uncompromised. My immediate reaction was to assume you were trying to set up a plan where you get rid of a bunch of people from one faction, then have one of the elims claim that faction and say they think the whole faction was village. Also yes I know they're not factions. I don't know what else to call them with my tired brain. Matrim because I think I suspect him more than I do you and also I only initially voted on Thaid because it was funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashbringer Posted April 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 Vote Count: Thaidakar the Ghostblood (3): Matrim's Dice, Archer, Kasimir Matrim's Dice (2): Amanuensis, StrikerEZ Archer (1): Experience Devotary of Spontaneity (1): Araris Valerian Experience (1): Thaidakar the Ghostblood Should be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 Actually rolling into this game I had two plans: first, I was gonna RP a rather depressing and philosophical arc for Kesan Acheris about an overachieving minor diplomat rethinking his life and writing letters to time, love, and death. Culled a bunch of quotes for that too, like "Time is a game played beautifully by children," and "Time is the fire in which we burn." Then, the playstyle experiment was gonna be me emulating Araris's playstyle and both of these plans kinda got shot to hell by Happy, Skippy, Hyper Kas showin' up so WHATEVER WE GONNA IMPROVISE WHO NEEDS A PLAN ANYWAY AMIRITE OR AMIRITE >:D Ideally some sleep was supposed to bring sober Kas back so I can type in the doc and thread without scaring people/having any Evil infiltrators or the GMs go, "Bloody hell, Kas is so hyper this is DISTURBING soMeBoDY DO SOMETHING!" but I guess that's not gonna be happening >> 5 hours ago, JNV said: Hi love you too oh by the way heard you were the fancy doc guy your service is appreciated and I look forward to seeing your pretty empire doc when the game ends you are a cool guy have a good nap ILU TOO YOU'RE AMAZING YOU DO YOU JNV my docs are fancy indeed i am fancypants HEAR ME RAWR u r cool too and the nap helped I am less hyper now I swear looking forward to seeing your empire doc after the game! and everyone's! but right here right now LET'S HAVE A GOOD TIME EVERYONE!!! 7 hours ago, Amanuensis said: If I had to guess right now, given 18 players, we are dealing with 4 elims total. I personally think at least one doc is uncompromised because from a GM perspective, it would be really fun to see a full village Empire pointing fingers at each other because of paranoia. Plus, if at least one faction has 2 elims instead of 1, it means we can't hard clear every member of an Empire once their mole is found. 4 Elims sounds about right to me, with potential modulations depending on how troll Ash/El/Xino plan to be. Don't believe we have sufficient sight of the distro just yet. Think the question of the degree to which docs have been compromised is an open one, dependent on how the GMs set up the docs to begin with. Wyrm basically had one or two uncompromised docs IIRC in LG7 - those were the Houses that got hit the hardest (Araris can correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember Seeris and Elariel being especially untouched by the kill.) Of course, now that I've said it, maybe they'll play mindgames with us with the NK. Who knows, not my problem right now! In LG50, he changed tack because he's an old troll: Quote The distribution I used had two Eliminators in two Houses, and one in a third, with two smaller Houses with none in them. This was because I expected that people would assume one per House, and I wanted to avoid that. It's worth noting that if we had a third Eliminator, I'd have put three Eliminators in one House . Houses are basically the same as Empire docs, here, FWIW. Orlok and Araris should especially remember this as they were the Village powerhouses that game and I remember it because Wyrm was commenting on it/them to me every single day >> On the Empire numbers issue - and really, anything about my Empire, I'm leaving it to internal discussion before acting unilaterally. I have made my views clear but also don't really feel right making a decision for them without prior consultation, so that's just how it's going to be. But given that we have been told there are four Empires and there are eighteen players, and Aman has claimed 5 players in his doc, I think the two main possibilities are: A: 4-4-5-5 B: 3-4-6-5 There are slightly more kayana possibilities, which I've ruled out. B is if the GMs want to be a bit more tricky; personally I'd lean much more towards A, as I think they'd want to spread the discussion groups out as evenly as possible (hence four out of six Empires.) My thoughts so far on what I'm seeing (a bit rushed as I have AoE2 session with Wyrm in a couple minutes but he has graciously given me time to post this if I promise to praise him and advertise LG50): Feel the dispute over extent of doc compromise is moot right now; we can't assume and we don't have enough distro info to work on. Distro assumptions should not override analysis - this is how Beagles bite your face off. On one hand; slightly positive gut on Aman from extrapolation, on the other hand, unnerved by how fast that reads list came out - would like to know reasons for <Exp/Kas/Thaid> reads if possible. DOn'T STOP ME NOW 'CAUSE I"M HAVIN' A GOOD TIME ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) Bortington stood on the walls of Elantris, looking down at the city of Ka with a wistful look in his eyes. Maybe on the rest of his face too, but it was impossible to tell with his luxurious mane covering most of it. "Come on, Bortington. You're going to miss the boat." Luna flitted around him, riding a strand of his beard. "This is where is all started, you know, Luna." He said after a moment and pointed at Ka. "Right down there." "What?" Luna asked, slowing to look down at the city below. "This. Us... Me. I was young and foolish, part of the Jeskeri, so my Mother had me poisoned, my Father led the mob that threw me into Elantris, and I met a very strange individual in there who told everyone I was evil and had me killed. For the first time. Then I learned so much more about the Cosmere, met you and we Bonded, grew the most magnificent beard of all," Luna nodded in agreement, "and all of our fun and crazy adventures we've had since. I wouldn't mind if they didn't involve dying so much though." "Wow..." Luna was, for once, almost speechless as Bortington suddenly burst alight with stormlight and used his beard to spider climb down the walls of Elantris, heading for the port, and some incredible peace negotiations. Later, Bortington and Luna watched the burning ship. "Are you surprised, Luna? I'm not surprised. There were bound to be people who didn't like the idea of peace. The fools. Don't they know beards get singed in war?" A small explosion blew out a chunk of the ship, somewhere near Bortington's quarters. "Oh no," Luna said. "I told you we should have brought your beard oils and luggage ashore with us." *************************************************************** So, a couple of thoughts from reading the thread. 4 hours ago, Ashbringer said: Vote Count: Thaidakar the Ghostblood (3): Matrim's Dice, Archer, Kasimir Matrim's Dice (2): Amanuensis, StrikerEZ Archer (1): Experience Devotary of Spontaneity (1): Araris Valerian Experience (1): Thaidakar the Ghostblood Should be right. Did Aman's vote not end up on Striker? @Ashbringer @Amanuensis? I think knowing at least the names of the Empires is fine, if not necessarily their makeup. That kind of stuff is for each Empire to decide. I'll be posting my thoughts on this in my doc and letting everyone there decide though. That said, if we've got 4 Empires, and the elims are in either all of them or three of them, then they already know our distribution, so it probably won't make a great deal of difference if we did share that info. Some slight trolling suspicion of JNV and Kas about Kas doing up some doc that impressed JNV, but apparently not their Empire doc. Elim doc maybe? Wyrm is running LG50? Yay! For now, I'm going to poke vote @Tani to get her up and in the thread Tani Edit: Remembered another question... What do think the likelihood is that the baker is going to only post bread pics in his doc/docs too? Edit 2: Not really about this game, but a thought for other games. Has a game like this been considered with a higher than average elim count, but they have no doc to talk in, only the empire docs, and they have to find each other while still winning? Edited April 2, 2022 by Bort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) Striker. THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED. Matrim. Please gib words to accept. FWIW, I'm of the opinion that each Empire (and Sel as a whole) should be treated as a democracy, therefore I wholly support each faction to share as much as they wish. Personally, I'm in favor of transparency, and 3/4ths of my Teoish bretheren have voted for Empire reveals. Therefore I will leave it to them to claim their allegiance in thread, and welcome anyone who wishes to follow suit from other Empires to do so as they please. Re: my tierslist, I'll just be updating it frequently with little immediate explanation based off of things I see; players may shift up and down frequently as the game progresses and I continously reassess, tho I also might place some higher or lower than how I actually view them for reasons I will eventually reveal. I'll make sure to leave a finalized legacy (will) every night turn that thoroughly explains my entire (honest) world view so that should I die, the village has something to look back at. Spoiler Kasimir Striker Experience Archer JNV Illwei Baker Sibling Bort Tani Devotary Araris Orlok shadow TJ Thaidakar Matrim ED1T: Also I heckin love this emoticon ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ No one stop Kas ever Edited April 2, 2022 by Amanuensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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